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Samira Musa is it the recent us plane

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crash in Libya a sign that Western

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forces intervening there will only

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create another catastrophe that was Iraq

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okay and I should say also we're we're

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completely live here on bbc3 tonight and

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here's the very latest line on Libya uh

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the Libyan Air Force no longer exists as

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a fighting force that is according to

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the commander of British aircraft

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operating over Libya the Libyan Air

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Force no longer exists as a fighting

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force let's go to uh

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George gallowan first of all well these

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kind of hubis boastings are almost

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guaranteed to uh backfire um if uh

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another American plane comes down uh

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we'll know that that's not quite as true

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as the military spokesman today said

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even worse after the American plane came

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down and the villagers near Benghazi who

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came out to rescue the American Pilots

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six of them were shot and once had his

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arm amputated

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by the American Commandos uh who didn't

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understand their uh intentions which

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just goes to show the law of unintended

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consequences no military plan survives

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first contact with the Enemy and this

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one won't either it's going nowhere it's

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costing us3 million a day on the day

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that the Tory Chancellor laid waste to

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hundreds of thousands of British jobs

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butchered more British Public Services

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it turns out we've got 3 million a day

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to spend throwing Tomahawk cruise

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missiles at a million dollars a time a

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North African country and Richard said

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it's the first time we've been in

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military action since Iraq that long huh

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but actually we've been in military

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action every day since Iraq it's called

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Afghanistan we're already in an

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up comment uh a new uh theater of war

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but you mentioned the six people that

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were shot it is worth saying that the

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father of the boy who may have to have

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his leg amputated has said that he he

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has forgiven the Americans because

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better him than me I wouldn't forgive

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them if they shot my son's leg off would

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you no but it's look it's an important

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point he wants them there he thinks

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they're doing an important job he thinks

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it's necessary well he's probably not

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got much of a choice uh over that but

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his son's leg was shot off six other

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people were shot I'm just making the

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point that when you're throwing High

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explosives around the place don't

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pretend that there's anything forensic

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about it that there's anything targeted

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about it I've been in enough medical

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wards where the victims of surgical

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Precision bombing have been taken per

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chance to die to know that all this

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propagandistic Guff about military

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weaponry is just one of the big lies

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this Century George we shouldn't be

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there at all not at all we are the

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colonial power that used to govern in

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these places we are the last people in

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the world who should be invading and uh

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uh and bombing other people it's an

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enormous International Coalition just a

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enormous is it well name names well well

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let me add that in a moment an audience

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and to come in and we

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will just be absolutely clear you would

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have left the people of Benghazi to

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their fate the tanks were on the

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outskirts of Benghazi Gaddafi said he

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would go house to house door to door and

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show these people no mercy and you would

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have left them to die don't give me that

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the same people give that people that

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are bombing for human rights in Libya

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are killing people in Pakistan and

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Afghanistan on a daily basis and you

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just you've just brought into your vast

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Coalition Saudi Arabia the Saudi Arabian

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Air Force bombing for human rights when

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it's killing its own demonstrators and

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has just invaded bahin to kill theirs so

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the answer your hypocrisy it's absolute

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hypoc perfectly valid point absolute

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hypoc the answer is some people can be

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killed other people have to be saved I

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wonder what the difference is it's got

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three letters it begins with o it ends

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an l and the middle letter is

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I so therefore the answer is yes you

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would have left the people of Benghazi

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to their fate I wouldn't have asked

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armed Gaddafi in the first place when I

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was saying when I was telling you when I

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was telling the BBC that Gaddafi was the

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same criminal today as he was last year

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and 10 years before the BBC was singing

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off the same H sheet as Tony Blair and

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the labor government Minister different

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point it's not a he wouldn't have his

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tanks if we hadn't sold them to him he

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wouldn't have the training of these

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Special Forces if we hadn't trained them

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that happened you have to accept that

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happened and there we had an urgent

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situation where the tanks were on the

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outskirts of the Town yeah you'd Le

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1,600 Palestinians were killed to death

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from the sky by Israel and you never

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asked for a nfly Zone once and you never

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will ask for a norly Zone

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once hello there good evening yeah um I

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understand George's points about the

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disparity and terms of um foreign policy

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with uh uh macabi Israel Saudi Arabia

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but I'd like him to actually answer the

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question and what would you do what what

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what should be done should they should

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no forces have gone in or should forces

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have gone in from another country or

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some other country but what would Arabs

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Arabs have a right to be there Egypt has

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a right to be there them has to be there

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I called on them uh to open their

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borders right at the start of this

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revolution I'm a supporter of the Libyan

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Revolution before David Avid Cameron

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supported him the difference is I'm a

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supporter of all the Arab revolutions he

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definitely

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isn't libia's oil is less than 2% of the

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world's oil supp she obviously doesn't

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know the price of oil she can what only

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two have you any idea what the value of

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2% ofil and it's not true to say that we

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would only send forces to help places

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that have oil because you just need to

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look at someone like Sierra Leon we made

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a huge difference before we get

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before we get stared about the security

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Council the most populous countries in

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the world did not vote for this

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resolution against it either India China

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Russia they gave approval they they gave

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it tacit approval Germany turkey China

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Russia are and India are all against

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this against they have all been

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denouncing it in the days that well

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because they did not believe that they

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were abstaining on something that

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involved the hling of hundreds hundreds

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of cruise missiles at a million dollar a

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time a broken back

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country actually the Russian president

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and prime minister actually are odds

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with each other so haven't completely

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denounced it let's just go to the

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audience gentleman in the middle there

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with the black hair hello many of

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speakers point out how we as a country

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and Nation have denounced to have

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encouraged these dictators and propped

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them up we have perhaps sold them

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weapons we have perhaps intervened in

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their countries in the past and yet in

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the same breath they say that we should

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not intervene simply because it is

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perhaps too expensive or perhaps we have

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no role in this surely we should be

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given the chance in fact we have the

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obligation to at least make do make

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right what we have made wrong to try

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to but we're still we're still propping

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up the dictators Saudi Arabia is propped

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up by us but it would fall down now

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we''ve had people in Li is talking you

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have Thrice mentioned the Arab League

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the Arab League is a collection of

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dictatorships who are mostly involved in

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killing their own democracy

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protesters and you want us to say it's a

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good idea because the Arab leades in

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favor of it the Arab League there's not

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a single democratic government in the

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entire Arab League look at and half of

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them are killing the else get

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word look at the uprisings George across

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North Africa in the Middle East

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uh if the rest of the world uh hadn't if

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that Coalition had not intervened in

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Libya and Gaddafi had been allowed to

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completely suppress and kill those

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Rebels what message would that have sent

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to other dictators the are sending to

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all the other dictatorships you can kill

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your people if you like no we don't yes

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we are what did we say against Saudi

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Arabia killing its own people what do we

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say about Saudi Arabia invading bahin

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last Friday in order to kill the people

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of bahin nothing at all let's go the

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audience let go the AUD let's go the

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audience right blue blaz what is the

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difference between the situation in

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Libya uh and the situation that was in

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China in the TM men Square protest and

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also the guangju democratization

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movement in Korea in 1980 uh they both

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started off as a civilized movement

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which ended in bloody massacre oh let me

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add another one in this country in

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Northern Ireland when British troops

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shot dead 14 innocent protesters none of

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whom was carrying a weapon and we then

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covered it up for 40 years and then

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finally almost half a century later

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David Cameron apologized would we have

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supported would we have

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supported foreign troops intervening in

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Northern Ireland to protect you're

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talking about Bloody Sunday you were

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involved in Norther you were involved in

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Northern irand six tours I did in

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Northern Ireland to protect the people I

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lost soldiers in Northern Ireland yes

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bloody Sunday was a mistake I entirely

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agree with it I sent look

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it was a crime of course it was let me

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speak

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though it took too long I knew at the

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time I was on the streets that it was a

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crime I accept that totally reject the

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uh comparisons between Rwanda and

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Balkans what happened in the Balkans

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were the presence of genocidal Maniacs

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Gaddafi is many things but he's not a

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genocidal Maniac what's happening in the

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Arab world are revolutions not genocidal

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Maniacs the people who took up arms have

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made the conscious choice to sacrifice

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their lives or put their lives at risk

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to overthrow dictators but if if if when

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GFI said he would go door too house to

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house and show no mercy to the people of

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Benghazi all right not technically a

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genocide but not that different to a

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genocide

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well look you keep saying that as a

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matter of fact the voice of America that

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well-known Gaddafi radio station uh has

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published the text of what Gaddafi said

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and it was not what you're saying it was

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in any case it was hot air the Libyan

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regime is a ramshackle disorganized

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shambles as my two new friends the

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experts from the Middle East uh will uh

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be able to testify but it's Prett it's a

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pretty deadly shambles if you happen to

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be in Benghazi yes indeed but the

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Gaddafi had no means to go house to

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house and kill a million people and

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neither in fact according to the voice

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of America did he say so but the young

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man's made the point this is an armed

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uprising an and Uprising by the way that

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miraculously got its hand on airplanes

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and and

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tanks some revolutionaries I wonder

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where they got them from they rose up

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and they're contesting with Gaddafi for

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state power in Libya I'm with them I'm I

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want Gaddafi out whatever happens but

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it's not the same thing as being on the

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Hills above Saro and raining down death

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and destruction on entirely innocent

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individual when he say it's hot air

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George Gallow you think perh G would

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have shown Mercy he would have shown

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Mercy to the rebels doesn't have the

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means to conquer Benghazi this war this

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war by the way in which we've seen

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surprisingly few pictures I wonder why

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is actually being fought between very

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small groups of people on each side

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let's not paint this as if this was uh

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the Battle of ksk this is a ramsh

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primitive society in which small groups

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of people are fighting each other for

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state power we're moving on thank you

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let's uh