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Welcome back to Sputnik. The Right

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Honorable Sir Gerald Kaufman, PCM MP,

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has been in Parliament nearly 50 years,

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but before that was a brilliant

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journalist and an assistant in Downing

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Street to the Labour Prime Minister

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Harold Wilson. If Labour hadn't been out

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of power so long, he would have been

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foreign secretary. And what a difference

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to the world that would have made.

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Gerald Kaufman's relatives were murdered

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in the Holocaust and he grew up an

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ardent supporter of the state of Israel.

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Now he is the clearest, most

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authoritative voice against the crimes

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committed by that state and for justice

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for their victims. Last week in

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parliament, he said it was time for

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international sanctions against Israel

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and spoke of the sea of misery in the

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Gaza Strip. It's a privilege to have him

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with us on the spotnick today. Sir

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Gerald, your speeches always travel far.

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They have such authority and such

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clarity, but none more than the speech

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you made on Gaza last week. You're no

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stranger to Gaza. You've seen at

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firsthand that sea of misery. Tell our

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viewers about it.

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I led a delegation

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of

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60

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parliamentarians from 13 European

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parliaments to Gaza not long ago.

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It was a year after the attack by the

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Israelis which failed as all Israeli

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attacks now do though with huge loss of

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life called co operation cast le a year

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afterwards the smoke from the white

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phosphorous bombardment by Israel was

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still fuming away. People say rightly

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that the Syrians use chemical weapons.

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Nobody condemns the Israelis for using

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chemical weapons. Well, I do. The uh

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massive military destruction is of

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course compounded by the economic

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misery. The blockade means that no

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meaningful economic activity can take

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place there. the tunnels through which

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some means of life uh were passing have

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been destroyed uh on the Egyptian side

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and I think you were describing in

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parliament the condition of life of

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those Palestinians who have survived

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these military attacks. Tell us scarcely

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any food is allowed to be brought in.

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So everybody but particularly the young

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people and the children are

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undernourished which affects them so

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much that it will go on to future

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generations. They have hardly any fresh

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water just for a few hours every five

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days. So they're diseased in that way.

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They have no fuel of their own which

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means apart from anything else that a

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great deal of the transport now is by

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horse or donkey. There's hardly any

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electric electrical power. Indeed, on a

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recent summer, because there wasn't

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enough electricity for air conditioning

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in nearby Tel a Viv, they cut off the

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electricity in the Gaza Strip and Qatar

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had to intervene and see what it could

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do, which wasn't enough. No building

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materials are brought in so that the

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schools that the Israelis destroyed in

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some cases with children in them cannot

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be rebuilt. Medical facilities are at

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their minimum. If any other country on

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earth was doing what the Israelis have

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been doing to

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1.7 million Palestinians in Gaza, there

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will be United Nations resolutions.

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There will be calls for an intervention.

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There will be sanctions. But the

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Israelis literally get away with murder.

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I'll come back to sanctions in a minute.

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Now, you're Jewish. Your family uh

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suffered. Some perished in the

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Holocaust, the greatest of all crimes,

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uh which took place in the 20th century,

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perhaps the greatest of all crimes ever.

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And you grew up a supporter uh of the

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state of Israel. What changed your mind?

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As you say, George, I grew up a

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supporter of the state of Israel. I I

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was brought up as a Zionist. I went to

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Israel again and again and again on

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holiday. I had family there. I had

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friends there. But as I traveled

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around, because it's a small area, I

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would see not just Israelis in Israel

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living in huge comfort, subsidized by

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the

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Americans. I would see settlers in the

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illegal settlements living in huge

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comfort. And minutes away I will go to a

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Palestinian township or village and see

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sewage flowing through the streets.

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And if you have any sense of justice at

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all and as a Jewish child I was brought

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up with a sense of justice. The

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disparity is

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unacceptable. And it's got worse. It's

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got worse and worse and worse the whole

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time. And the Israelis live in comfort.

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I've gone through Tel a Viv and see them

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sitting at their pavement cafes

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complacently enjoying themselves while

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hardly any distance away. The G people

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in the Gaza Strip are living in total

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misery. But don't let's forget the

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people on the West Bank. They're living

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in misery as well. Now, of course, it is

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routine uh for Israeli propagandists to

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pray in aid the suffering of the Jewish

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people in the Holocaust. You reject that

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as a cover, don't you? I reject it with

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utter contempt and anger.

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Most of my parents families because my

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parents came here as

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refugees. Most of my parents'

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families were murdered in the

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Holocaust. When the Germans came to the

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town from which my mother came in

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Poland, Stashoff, they lined up all the

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Jews to march to the railway station to

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be put in cattle wagons. But for those

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who were not well enough to march, they

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killed them on the spot. And they killed

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my grandmother, who was ill in bed by

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shooting her in her bed. My grandmother

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did not die to provide cover for

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Israelis murdering Palestinian

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grandmothers. Well, it's hard to put it

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any more uh powerfully than than that.

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Uh let's turn to what can be done about

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it. Uh there is of course a civil

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movement of boycott and fight for

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divestment and even individual sanction.

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Uh but you went further in your speech

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in parliament last week. You say it's

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time for international official

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governmental sanctions against Israel.

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How would that work? The Israelis have a

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very high first world standard of

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living. That stand of living depends

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partly on huge financial subsidies by

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the United States under the supine

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spineless Barack Obama and every

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politician pretty well in the United

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States yields to the Jewish pressure

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groups and that's why they didn't do

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anything about it even if they wanted to

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do something about it.

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The European Union is

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inactive. The British government is

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inactive. The prime

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minister, David

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Cameron,

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described the Gaza Strip as a prison

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camp. But it so happened that he said

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that when he was visiting a Muslim

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country, Turkey, and wanted to

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ingratiate himself with his

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hosts. Hardly anything is done, which is

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why lots of people, including me, take

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part in boycots. But the boycotts, while

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important, are insufficiently effective.

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What we need and what I press for and

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will go on pressing for is

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governments, the United Nations, the

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European Union, the United States, our

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own country to impose economic sanctions

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so that the Israelis can feel what

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international opinion means. There's no

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point in condemning them. There's

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certainly no point in appealing to their

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better nature because they don't have a

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better nation. You've got to make them

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suffer cuz that's the only way they will

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feel anything. And economic sanctions

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would erode this huge first world

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standard of living which they enjoy on

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borrowed money. What you described

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earlier was an apartheite system. I'm

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one of the few people on the left who

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was ever in apartheite South Africa. I

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was there underground for the African

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National Congress. And the situation you

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described of the settlers living in

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great comfort whilst the indigenous uh

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uh owners of the land live in utter

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misery. uh a partite was broken between

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the hammer of the struggle of the

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African people and the anvil of

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international solidarity including

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sanctions and uh boycott. Do you think

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uh that such a move is going to have an

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effect and if so when?

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I too when I was shadow foreign

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secretary visited South Africa under

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partaid

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uh as the guest of the South African

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Council of Churches and I was followed

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everywhere by South African secret

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police that there is a huge difference

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between the aparate that the Israelis

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are inflicting on the Palestinians and

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the loathsome and odious

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apartate that existed in South Africa.

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There were distances, considerable

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distances between Johannesburg, Cape

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Town, Durban and the South African uh

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the African uh

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townships in

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Palestine. It's minutes minutes between

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the settlements or between Israel behind

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the 67 borders and the hell that they've

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created in Gaza and on the West Bank. So

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it's worse. It's worse even than the

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foul actions of the South African

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aparted

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government. You've got to make these

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people feel it. I'm not optimistic, but

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I'm realistic. Nobody ever

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expected the Soviet Union to collapse in

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the way that it did, but it happened.

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Nobody ever expected a part in South

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Africa to collapse in the way that it

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did, but it happened. The Israelis are

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stupid to imagine that just because

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they've got the fourth largest arms

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forces in the world, they can go on like

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this. I learned Greek at school and

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there was there's a phrase in the

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historian

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youthidities which says panta ray and

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that means everything flows. The

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Israelis are barmy complacent and

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self-defeating to imagine that they can

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go on forever as they're going now. So

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John Kaufman a privilege to talk to you.

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[Music]