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[Music]

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On question time tonight, Bernard

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Jenkins, shadow defense secretary.

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George Galloway, Labour MP, vehement

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opponent of war with Iraq. Mark Otton,

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chairman of the Liberal Democrats in the

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House of Commons, and Anne Leslie,

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award-winning special correspondent for

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the Daily

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Mail. And um good evening. Welcome to

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Tamworth. If you're observant, you may

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have noticed we're missing Jermaine

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Greer, who was going to be here, but got

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stuck in a snow drift in Cambridge, so

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she'll have to come some other week. Um,

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and just one thing before we start,

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remember if you want to comment on

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what's said during the program, you can

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send us a message by texting us to it to

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us and you can read what other people

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watching are saying about the program as

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it goes along, which can be fun. And the

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instructions are there on the screen.

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Let's take our first question to our

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panel who as ever don't know what

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they're going to be asked tonight. And

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this comes from Nigel Morris, please.

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Mr. Morris.

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Why do the Liberals and the left wing of

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the Labor Party continually undermine

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the Prime Minister's determination to

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rid the world of weapons of mass

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destruction in Iraq?

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Um well well don't don't clap because I

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was going to come to a first. Bernard

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Jenin. Well that's a question for them

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not for me. Well you must have a view on

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it. Um the the danger is that uh uh the

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Liberals um are chasing public opinion

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polls rather than sticking up for

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principle. I mean there are people and

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let's uh be absolutely blunt about this.

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There are lots of people with very

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severe doubts about it but I have my

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doubts about the Liberals because I'm

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sure when military action comes to be

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taken they will be there as they were in

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Kosovo as they were in the first Gulf

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War as they were in the Falklands. And I

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think there's a certain amount of

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political posturing that goes on from

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the liberal benches which isn't entirely

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unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. I

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think the position we have taken on this

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has been absolutely principle. Charles

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Gennady has made it quite clear from the

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start that if you're going to maintain

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peace in this world, you do it through

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the international institutions, the

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United Nations, and we in this issue I

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believe have led public opinion and this

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is not a cheap issue where we're trying

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to get votes. We strongly feel this is

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an important principle to speak up in a

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way that the officials so-called

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opposition just are not doing at the

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moment.

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George George Galloway. Well, we've got

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his holiness the pope, the cardinal

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archbishop of Westminster, the

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Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of

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the British forces who went into Kuwait

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to liberate Kuwait in the last Gulf War.

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We've got field marshals by the dozen.

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Uh, we've got people from all political

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stripes backing the stop the war

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coalition campaign to stop us going over

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the cliff with George W. Bush. There

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must be an awful lot of liberals and

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left-wing labor people in the country if

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that question was right because

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something between 75 and 80% of the

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people of the country agree with us that

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there is no case for going to war on the

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basis of the current evidence and on the

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likelihood of the whole thing turning

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into a disaster. The truth is we the

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Liberals, people like me and the others

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I've mentioned speak for Britain. I have

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a letter in my bag from Count Nikolai

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Toltoy, a grande of the conservative

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right, placing himself under my command

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in the campaign. A man whom I never

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thought I'd ever even have a

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conversation with. But that's the

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breadth of the support that we have

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across the world from kings, shakes,

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presidents. Nelson Mandela today made a

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blistering attack on George Bush and Mr.

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Blair for the way they're conducting

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this crisis. Now, I just don't think you

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can pigeon hole us as liberals and

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left-wing people. This view is shared

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across the board. And listen, well, the

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simple answer to the question is because

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they are oppositionists, you know. I

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mean, they don't like Tony Blair. I

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don't like Tony Blair. I think on on

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this particular issue, he's probably

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right. Uh but I noticed that uh George

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is saying he's got, you know, half the

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world and all the grandees and all the

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lobbies and all the sort of useful

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idiots, as Lenin put it, uh on his side.

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speak about the pope

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app and the Daily Mail whom you work

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for. The Daily Mail also against the

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Daily Mail she used to work for after

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that comment. I just thought No, it's

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exactly I mean I don't I unlike some

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people I don't vote the entire ticket of

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whatever party and whatever faction um

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is is speaking. Um, I happen to be in a

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minority at the Daily Mail thinking on

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the whole we do have to do something

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about Saddam. And it's not because I'm a

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wararmonger. I've actually seen war

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close quarters in three quant

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continents, including in Iraq. It is a

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horrible thing to see, but I think we

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probably do have to go to war. And it

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seems to me extraordinary that George,

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who's always going on about, you know,

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he's got world opinion on his side and

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and so on. I mean, you were saying after

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911 that there was no evidence that Bin

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Laden was involved with the 911 attack.

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That's completely untrue. No, I'm sorry.

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I had completely untrue. You must have I

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said from the first moment it was Bin

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Laden. You said there from the first

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moment evidence. I said nothing. I'm

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sorry. I have just run through a program

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you did where you said there was no

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evidence the Taliban was involved. There

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was no evidence this. There was no that

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I accused Bin Laden in the House of

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Commons 4 days after the disaster when

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the House was recalled. And I said, "I

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despise Osama bin Laden. The difference

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is I've always despised them. When the

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Americans and the British were giving

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him guns and money, I despise." I don't

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think I don't think this little argument

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is getting us anywhere. Let's revert to

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Iraq. Let me go back to the questioner.

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What's your view? I'm sure uh 90% of the

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population agreed with Neville

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Chamberlain when he landed at Cudon

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Airport in 1938.

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Uh, nevertheless, this man has started

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two wars, has murdered millions of

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people in his own country, gassed them.

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Uh, he's killed his son-in-laws, which I

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can imagine you might want to do. Uh,

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but this man has to be stopped. Does

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George Galloway want a million people in

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the tube in London or something like

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that with anthrax poisoning uh provided

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by Saddam Hussein? George Galloway, do

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you believe Saddam has weapons of mass

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destruction? If so, what would you do

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about them? And what do you say to his

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point? I asked the Iraqi president to

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let these inspectors in. I hope I wasn't

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fooling them. I told them that if you

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let these inspectors in to go through

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the country to destroy any remaining

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stocks of weapons of mass destruction,

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then we can have a diplomatic end to

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this. It now looks as if George Bush and

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Tony Blair had decided long, long ago

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that they were going to invade and

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occupy Iraq. But what I say is this,

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David, an attack on the London tube,

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Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, is

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going to be a much greater danger after

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you've bombed and burned Iraq and after

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you've occupied Iraq for itself. Very

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gentle, nobody wants to bomb and burn

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Iraq. uh uh and even if military action

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is taken, I hope we will see the very

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minimum of bombing and burning Iraq. Uh

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just as in fact it turned out the people

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of Afghanistan, the war that you opposed

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there, there were people dancing in the

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streets as Carbull was liberated and

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I've walked down I've walked down the

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streets of Carbull with British soldiers

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who have been mobbed by an adoring

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population because it's the British

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soldiers that brought peace and opened

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the schools and freed the women in

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Carbal. And I think that's what we want

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to see in in in Iraq and Baghdad and

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only and it's the choice is Saddam

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Hussein's if he actively cooperates with

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those weapons inspectors if he takes

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them to the weapons of mass destruction

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and says come and film me dismantling

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these weapons as they did in for example

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in Ukraine when they disarmed. That's

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what the weapons inspectors are meant to

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be doing. George just getting the

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weapons inspectors. You can't expect 180

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weapons inspectors to find weapons if

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they're being deceived by the dictator

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in Baghdad. Okay, hold on. Can I come to

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one or two members of the office? You I

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think many of us are probably very

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suspicious of George Bush's motives for

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going to war. But in the week when it

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was celebrating Holocaust week, I think

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we have to stand up and be counted.

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Okay. And and you in the in the for

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fifth row with the white shirt. Yes. Um

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my my point is that um once we we start

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this process, once we say we're going to

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war, that's just the beginning. The

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battle there are no battle lines with

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this. That's my concern. And the

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terrorist is the man or the woman

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sitting next to you on the bus, there

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are no battle lines on it. and you sir

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in the second row here. Well, quite

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simply um in order to give confidence to

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the troops and us the British public in

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becoming an aggressor towards Iraq, uh

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perhaps some of this evidence should be

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made public. And I'm thinking yesterday

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that President Bush announced that

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they're watching materials being moved

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just prior to weapons inspectors visit.

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Um if he's watching it being moved, it's

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not beyond the wit of man to inform the

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inspectors so they can intercept such

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movements.

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What I think uh probably surprised and

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alarmed Saddam was Hans Blicks who is

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the chief inspector produced a report

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saying that we have been deceived in the

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end that we have not been told the

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truth. We've been given the runaround.

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Now Hans Blicks was somebody who when he

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was the head of the atomic agency u

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which was supposed to be inspecting uh

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Saddam's nuclear

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u program or non-nuclear program uh said

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that nuclear um program didn't exist in

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Iraq. He now admits he was fooled. He's

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probably fooled now. The problem with

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constantly saying, "Why don't we have

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all the evidence?" is because the

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evidence comes from a lot of people

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within Iraq and outside Iraq, people who

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have left. Um, which if you reveal it is

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going to mean that those people and

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their families are going to be killed or

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destroyed or tortured. The fact is

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there's an enormous amount of missing

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armory in uh the account in the 12,200

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page account which you're so keen on.

273
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,000
Okay. And I think that we have to do

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something before people talk about

275
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there's no smoking gun that smoking gun

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is once it's been you cannot and the

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00:11:12,079 --> 00:11:14,959
gentleman is absolutely right to say we

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need to see what this evidence is. Now

279
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we're told that Coen Powell is going to

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make a PowerPoint presentation next

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Wednesday to the security commission.

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Now, we need to know what this evidence

283
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is. This should be made public. If

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you're going to actually ask our troops

285
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and our democracy to make a decision on

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something as important as this. We need

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to see the evidence. If then, having

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seen that evidence and the House of

289
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Commons votes in favor of military

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action and we have full UN support, then

291
00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,120
with a heavy heart, the Liberal

292
00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:43,440
Democrats would support that action. But

293
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,120
until the case is made, we believe the

294
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,800
inspector should be given much more time

295
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,959
to carry on that and much more time for

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Saddam to keep on concealing his weapons

297
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of mass destruction, which is the whole

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point. I do wish Hang on. Hang on. The

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00:11:54,079 --> 00:11:58,000
woman in woman in in pink there, you

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00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:59,920
madam. And then I want to take a second

301
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,600
question on the same subject. You mad.

302
00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:04,079
This is in relation to what was

303
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,320
mentioned earlier by the panel. And I

304
00:12:04,079 --> 00:12:09,040
hasten to add that I am neither a racist

305
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nor a wararmonger. But as someone quite

306
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:15,040
rightly said that once that first shot

307
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fires out in Baghdad then there are

308
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going to be repercussions throughout

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this country. An article in Sunday's

310
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:29,440
paper by a correspondent stated that

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1,200 British Muslims had gone out to

312
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,920
join Alqaeda's terrorist training in

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Afghanistan.

314
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:40,320
Most of them by way of either being

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killed or through other reasons have

316
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,399
been accounted for. A lot have returned

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to

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Britain. The special branch are most

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00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,680
concerned that about a dozen of these

320
00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:54,600
terrorists are now loose in Britain and

321
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:57,120
they are raring to go. All

322
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,839
right. The woman, the woman in the white

323
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over there, you lots of people. Hold on

324
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a second. Yeah. Lots of people

325
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undoubtedly would like to see Saddam

326
00:13:02,639 --> 00:13:07,839
Hussein removed from power. But how do

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our world's leaders expect that to

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00:13:07,839 --> 00:13:12,720
happen? Surely any bombs that the West

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drop, any troops that go in fighting

330
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,560
with or guns blazing, it's only going to

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be the population that get hurt. Saddam

332
00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:20,800
is is going to hide away in his palace.

333
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He's not going to get the bombs hit on

334
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:26,160
him. It's the population that have

335
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already been under awful sanctions by

336
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,680
their president that are going to suffer

337
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,600
once again. And it's going to be us that

338
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:32,800
does it to them. and the man in the

339
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,839
black jacket there and I'll come to you

340
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,880
at the back and then I'm going to take a

341
00:13:33,839 --> 00:13:36,399
second question on this. I agree in

342
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,839
pring principle with what an Leslie said

343
00:13:36,399 --> 00:13:39,519
about protecting your intelligence

344
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sources and understand why she says

345
00:13:39,519 --> 00:13:44,320
that. At the same time, I found it

346
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extremely distasteful that five minutes

347
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:49,040
after hearing George Bush making the

348
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link between al-Qaeda and Iraq, Tony Bla

349
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,360
is doing exactly the same thing. And

350
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where's the evidence to back it up? It

351
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,560
it seems that this is the way things are

352
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going. Bush says one thing one minute.

353
00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:01,680
Blair follows without without Blair

354
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:03,680
appearing to be the poodle that is often

355
00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:05,440
portrayed. He's got to start presenting

356
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:07,040
evidence so that we can understand why

357
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,399
these things are being said. George

358
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,519
Galloway, do you think he's a poodle?

359
00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:11,360
The prime minister? Well, I don't know

360
00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:12,440
what poodles did to get themselves such

361
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,959
a bad

362
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:19,519
name. Poodles poodles are

363
00:14:15,959 --> 00:14:21,760
uh poodles are inoffensive creatures who

364
00:14:19,519 --> 00:14:24,079
who seldom harm anyone. I'm not sure

365
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:27,440
that the analogy is a good one, but I do

366
00:14:24,079 --> 00:14:31,040
wish this gobellian uh resort to telling

367
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:33,680
big lies often enough would stop. Hans

368
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:36,800
Blicks said the Iraqis were cooperating,

369
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:39,839
and I'm quoting rather well. The head of

370
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:43,279
the atomic agency inspectorate said that

371
00:14:39,839 --> 00:14:45,440
it was not true that Iraq was now trying

372
00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:48,800
to rebuild its nuclear weapons

373
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:51,199
potential. Both of them, both of you may

374
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,040
think that, but don't distort, don't

375
00:14:51,199 --> 00:14:54,680
distort what they actually said by

376
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,120
telling people they said one thing when

377
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,800
they did say that he thought that Iraq

378
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,240
was lying about its production of nerve

379
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,639
agents. And he said it didn't have a

380
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,560
genuine acceptance of the disarmament

381
00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:06,160
that was demanded of it. Both of them

382
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,920
are saying what the rest of the

383
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,600
governments in the security council and

384
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,000
the vast majority of people in the world

385
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,399
are saying is that this process has to

386
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,959
be given more time. After all, the

387
00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:19,279
consequences of going to war are very

388
00:15:16,959 --> 00:15:22,000
serious. For our own sons and daughters

389
00:15:19,279 --> 00:15:25,079
that we send into battle for the

390
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:28,240
thousands of Iraqi children like little

391
00:15:25,079 --> 00:15:31,040
Victoria Colombia who'll be scolded and

392
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:34,160
killed in their homes under the bombs.

393
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,920
Like the children and old people who are

394
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,240
living in terror waiting for the dive

395
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,480
bombers at the moment. and the

396
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,160
tremendous boost that bin Laden and the

397
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,639
other lunatics, the Islamic

398
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,480
fundamentalist terrorists will get from

399
00:15:44,639 --> 00:15:48,320
this confrontation of east and west.

400
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,480
That's what Bin Laden tried to bring

401
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,720
about. No, no, hold on. I Okay, fine.

402
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,480
No, I'm going to go another question.

403
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,000
Uh, let's I want I want to have another

404
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,360
question on this on this subject from

405
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,600
Thomas Lawrence, please. Mr. Lawrence,

406
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,920
should we let the supposed threat of

407
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,320
Saddam Hussein ruin our relationship

408
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,639
with European countries such as France

409
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,800
and Germany? France and Germany who uh

410
00:16:08,639 --> 00:16:12,720
have come out at the moment against and

411
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,199
um other countries in Europe of course

412
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,440
signed this advertisement or article

413
00:16:15,199 --> 00:16:19,040
order it was today. Should we let our

414
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,120
relationship with the rest of well with

415
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,639
European countries be ruined? France and

416
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,199
Germany. Mark Otton, you're pro-

417
00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:26,639
European. I am. I mean, I think we're

418
00:16:25,199 --> 00:16:28,399
going to find that probably most of

419
00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:29,839
these European countries come around to

420
00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:31,199
having basically the same view. The

421
00:16:29,839 --> 00:16:33,199
French have an incredible tradition of

422
00:16:31,199 --> 00:16:34,560
starting off saying no, they move to

423
00:16:33,199 --> 00:16:36,480
maybe, and they nearly always end up

424
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,079
saying yes. And I suspect I suspect

425
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,560
we're going to see that's what happens.

426
00:16:38,079 --> 00:16:42,160
What I think is Jenkins says that's like

427
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,920
the Liberal Democrats. Well, the Liberal

428
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,880
Democrats will actually take a judgment

429
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,560
on this issue. Look, Bernard, Bernard's

430
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,480
quite happy just to make his mind up and

431
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,240
just bypass the United Nations. That is

432
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,920
not our position. We will wait and see

433
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,680
what the United Nations and the weapons

434
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,199
inspectors find and that has got to be

435
00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:00,480
the most sensible view. Let's stick with

436
00:16:57,199 --> 00:17:03,360
France and Germany. Um and Leslie. Yes.

437
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,679
Well, uh France in my view will come

438
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:08,000
round in the end because it's taking a

439
00:17:05,679 --> 00:17:09,679
decision which is purely and I don't

440
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,559
blame it on its own commercial

441
00:17:09,679 --> 00:17:15,600
interests. It has a lot of contracts in

442
00:17:12,559 --> 00:17:18,160
Iraq and with Iraqi businesses. It also

443
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:21,120
likes very much to cocker snoop at

444
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:24,640
America. That's a sort of standard uh

445
00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:27,039
thing about them. Um Germany is has got

446
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,600
a very strong pacifist streak because

447
00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:32,080
Germany knows very well that when it

448
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,919
wasn't pacifist, it plunged Europe into

449
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,280
the world. Saving your grace. We don't

450
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:37,679
want the history. The question is

451
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,120
whether we should let our relationship

452
00:17:37,679 --> 00:17:40,480
be ruined with these countries. I don't

453
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,000
think it will be ruined. I think the

454
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,919
French will come around once they've

455
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:48,400
done a deal behind closed doors about

456
00:17:45,919 --> 00:17:50,000
the sorting out of what the contracts

457
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,000
are going to be, what the oil contracts

458
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,720
are going. I think that France will come

459
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,400
round. Germany is a different issue

460
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,080
because the people are very pacifist

461
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,720
because of their own experience.

462
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,960
Secondly, Gad Shura won the last

463
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:07,039
election. and I covered that campaign

464
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:09,039
simply because he he said in no way will

465
00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:11,280
we go to war with Iraq and because he

466
00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:14,320
appealed to the pacifist appealing in

467
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:16,080
Germany that's so I think we can ignore

468
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,240
those two things because I think they

469
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,160
will come round the woman at the back

470
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,240
there in red the gentleman over here

471
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,160
says about ruining the relationship with

472
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,799
France and Germany what relationship

473
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,799
with France and Germany

474
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:36,360
questioner seems to be applauding that.

475
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:38,799
Do you agree with that? What? Yeah.

476
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:41,360
Because what's your time, don't they? We

477
00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:43,840
have to be unified or we won't achieve

478
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:45,200
anything. Surely you think we should be

479
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,039
unified. We've got to be unified.

480
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,720
Surely. I think what demonstrates if we

481
00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:49,919
were unified, we wouldn't be able to

482
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,640
achieve anything because we're

483
00:18:49,919 --> 00:18:55,280
independent. It turns out and because

484
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,520
countries like Spain and Portugal and

485
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,360
the Czech Republic and Hungary and Italy

486
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,960
that have all signed the support for the

487
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:03,520
American and the British position, it

488
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,840
shows their independence is a far better

489
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,600
guarantee of our independence than

490
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,360
getting into some kind of common foreign

491
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,960
policy which quite clearly couldn't

492
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:13,520
possibly work when we can't agree on

493
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,520
fundamental issues like Iran. Okay. Can

494
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,919
we get right over to the right there to

495
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,200
the man at the very back there um on the

496
00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:21,840
right hand side if it's possible to

497
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:24,960
reach him? Yes, it is. far away. The man

498
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:27,600
in the red jacket. Is it right that Tony

499
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,440
Blair and other leaders of other nations

500
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,840
can decide whether we go to war or not?

501
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,200
Or or is public opinion important? What

502
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,320
about public opinion important? What

503
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,440
about Parliament? I mean, shouldn't

504
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,280
Parliament have a vote on this?

505
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,679
Shouldn't the MPs who are the Democratic

506
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,200
elected people to represent you? Surely,

507
00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:42,720
we should have a vote and a say in a

508
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,559
full debate in Parliament on this issue.

509
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,679
But, but weren't you, didn't you accept

510
00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:47,840
what the prime minister said at Prime

511
00:19:45,679 --> 00:19:48,799
Minister's questions on Wednesday? No, I

512
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,160
don't believe that. Well, you don't

513
00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:52,799
believe what he said? He said he'd have

514
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,720
a vote and he can't not before it's too

515
00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:56,799
late. It's the timing the timing at

516
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,280
which you have the vote times on whether

517
00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:00,880
it's okay to kill foxes, but we've not

518
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,880
been allowed a single vote on whether

519
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:06,039
it's okay to kill thousands of people in

520
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,720
Iraq. Okay, the man in blue

521
00:20:06,039 --> 00:20:09,760
there

522
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,240
you man in blue and then I'll come to

523
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:14,240
you in Yes. comment earlier about

524
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,280
carving up of oil resources surely

525
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,720
demonstrates that this whole

526
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,000
conflict rights or intervention or

527
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,640
chemical weapons but it's about the

528
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,200
future of oil. Exactly. End of story.

529
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:28,320
The sorted reality and and and the man

530
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:32,960
in the fair pullet my point also and

531
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:34,960
Leslie let out slip oil and that finish

532
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,080
the rest of the argument. No, of course.

533
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:41,000
Of course this war. Can I respond? Yes.

534
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:45,120
Yes. Of course, this war is partly about

535
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:47,280
oil because frankly, if all that uh

536
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:49,760
Saddam Hussein produced or his country

537
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:52,240
produced were carrots, nobody would give

538
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,400
a toss, frankly, whether he was killing

539
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,679
his own people, gassing his own Kurds,

540
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:59,840
and so on. Oil is important. The reason

541
00:20:57,679 --> 00:21:01,240
he invaded Kuwait was because he was

542
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,760
annoyed with the Kuwaitis for

543
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:06,559
undercutting his ability to charge more

544
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:09,679
for his oil and therefore to be able to

545
00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:11,840
produce his nuclear program and his

546
00:21:09,679 --> 00:21:14,720
weapons of mass destruction. Of course,

547
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:18,320
it's about oil, partly about oil, but it

548
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:20,720
is also partly about what they say it's

549
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,360
about. You wouldn't agree is about

550
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:26,880
weapons of mass destruction. If you have

551
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:29,840
a man who is a psychopath, a murderer,

552
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:32,960
who is in charge of the literal

553
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:35,039
lubricant of modern industrial society,

554
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,320
this is incredibly dangerous for us. How

555
00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:40,880
many of us arrive by car or who go to

556
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,200
schools that are heated by oil or go to

557
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,919
hospitals that are heated by oil? When

558
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,919
we say it's only about oil as if it was

559
00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:50,320
a trivial issue, it is not a trivial

560
00:21:47,919 --> 00:21:53,360
issue. And it seems to me that we have

561
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:56,240
to take into account that he can destroy

562
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:58,320
Western civilization by dominating the

563
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,320
oil fields of the Middle East which have

564
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,080
threequarters of the world's oil. Okay,

565
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,520
that's fine. George, very briefly if you

566
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,120
would and then I'll we've got a

567
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,480
dangerous psychopathic murderer in

568
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,240
charge of weapons of mass destruction.

569
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,799
He's just got a thumping he's just got a

570
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,440
thumping new majority in General Chaon

571
00:22:10,799 --> 00:22:16,320
in Israel and he's got a mountain of

572
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,760
weapons that we gave him.

573
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,760
I wanted to deal with the European

574
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,840
question. Mr. Blair said that we were

575
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,240
going to be at the heart of Europe in

576
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:27,200
we're turning out to be a cancer inside

577
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,360
Europe, a tumor acting for American

578
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,520
interests inside Europe. To say that we

579
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:33,840
are independent when we're actually

580
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,679
synchronizing our policy statements,

581
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,520
they're made in Washington and five

582
00:22:35,679 --> 00:22:39,520
minutes later, as the questioner said,

583
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:42,799
they're made in London. We've become the

584
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:45,679
51st state of George W. Bush's United

585
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:47,840
States of America.

586
00:22:45,679 --> 00:22:49,919
It's it's not for nothing that George is

587
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,240
known in political circles as the

588
00:22:49,919 --> 00:22:55,520
honorable member for Baghdad South. He

589
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:58,240
is acting

590
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,600
he is acting in heark. If if you're not

591
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,320
careful, I'll tell people what you're

592
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,240
known in

593
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,280
a fat old bag. But I don't mind that

594
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,400
because that doesn't that doesn't much

595
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,440
worse than that. All right. All right.

596
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:14,080
Let's let's cut out. And finally on the

597
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,679
poodle question. The poodle question.

598
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,640
This is a man who goes and spends

599
00:23:15,679 --> 00:23:21,120
Christmas in Baghdad. I spent Christmas

600
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,120
in the next to Tony Blair in Egypt. I

601
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,799
was waving at him across the sandunes.

602
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,720
Well, it's all very interesting. I'm not

603
00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:28,880
sure it's totally relevant. Um, we'll

604
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,559
move we'll move on to another subject.

605
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,720
Thanks very much. Uh, just before we do,

606
00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:35,120
question time. Next week is going to be

607
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,480
in Dartmouth in Devon. Uh, a week after

608
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,400
that we're going to be in Canavan in

609
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,640
Wales. Now, we'd like you to come very

610
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,320
much to those question times. And if

611
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,679
you'd like to, the thing to do is simply

612
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,360
to ring us. The number's on the screen

613
00:23:43,679 --> 00:23:48,400
now, uh,

614
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:51,159
0901441. Or you can, of course, as

615
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,960
always, apply on our website

616
00:23:51,159 --> 00:23:54,720
bbc.co.uk/questtime. You can argue about

617
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,440
these issues there, too. And you'll see

618
00:23:54,720 --> 00:24:00,320
your views published. And do keep your

619
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,240
questions coming uh or remarks coming by

620
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,080
texting us in the way that's described

621
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,880
on the screen. Let's have another

622
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:09,679
question. Now, this one is from Joanna

623
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,840
Kerry, please. Joanna Kerry, did the

624
00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:13,600
wrongful conviction of Sally Clark

625
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,080
confirm that there is no presumption of

626
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,840
innocence for mothers of cot death

627
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,360
victims? The wrongful conviction of

628
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,360
Sally Clark did it confirm no

629
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:25,760
presumption of innocence for mothers of

630
00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:27,679
cot death victims. Um, Bernard Jenin.

631
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:31,679
Well, what I find so distressing about

632
00:24:27,679 --> 00:24:34,640
this whole case is how what is obviously

633
00:24:31,679 --> 00:24:36,960
a terrible family tragedy finishes up

634
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,880
with police and handcuffs and the crime

635
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,279
prosecution service and the whole weight

636
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,679
of the law being thrown around uh just

637
00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:46,400
to investigate what's happened. And it

638
00:24:43,679 --> 00:24:49,240
seems to me we need to look at how we

639
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,440
approach these cases that it's not

640
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,080
necessarily somewhere for the law to

641
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,000
intervene immediately. uh that the

642
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,320
suspicion of the commission of a crime

643
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,000
tends to drive out the perhaps more

644
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,440
humane responses and more humane

645
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,360
investigation that should have taken

646
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,480
place to avoid this injustice in the

647
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:08,080
first place and I think we need to have

648
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,919
a a long long look at uh the whole law

649
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,159
that surrounds this. I don't entirely

650
00:25:09,919 --> 00:25:14,000
follow you. Are you saying that uh two

651
00:25:12,159 --> 00:25:17,440
cop deaths shouldn't be followed up by

652
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:20,720
the police? Well, I'm I'm not I'm s what

653
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:23,440
I'm suggesting is that the law of murder

654
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:26,480
and a police investigation might not

655
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:29,039
necessarily be the best institutions to

656
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,919
follow up uh two cot deaths. What what

657
00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:33,760
might be more appropriate is a far

658
00:25:31,919 --> 00:25:36,880
softer approach because I don't think

659
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,559
many many mothers uh go around

660
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,880
intentionally murdering their children

661
00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:43,120
unless there is some terrible terrible

662
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,520
problem in that family or there's some

663
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,360
illness. I I I think that is the lesson

664
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,400
of this case. I don't pretend to be an

665
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:51,760
expert, but but when uh I I read about

666
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,600
it in the papers this morning and heard

667
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,880
about it on the radio, I I just couldn't

668
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,400
help feeling that there should have been

669
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,760
something more humane in this case.

670
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,120
Joanna Kerry, you asked question. You

671
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,720
you're are you a lawyer or a law

672
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:02,320
student? No, I'm a law student. Law

673
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,159
student. What do you think? Well, I

674
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,039
think that it's very difficult to prove

675
00:26:04,159 --> 00:26:09,279
that you haven't killed a child if the

676
00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:11,840
onus of proof is on the mother. How on

677
00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:13,440
earth is she supposed to do that? If the

678
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,159
medical experts can't agree that what

679
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,480
the child died of, how can she refute

680
00:26:16,159 --> 00:26:20,720
that? Unless John, I think the main

681
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:24,000
problem is that we don't actually know

682
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:26,159
quite enough about COP deaths. I mean

683
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:29,360
for example recently geneticists have

684
00:26:26,159 --> 00:26:32,320
been discovering that um a child is

685
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:35,840
extremely vulnerable to infection about

686
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:38,640
8 to 12 weeks after the child has been

687
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:41,440
weaned because you inherit a lot of your

688
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:44,320
mother's immune system uh to begin with.

689
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:48,000
Then if the immune system of the child

690
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:52,000
doesn't kick in at that point then they

691
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:55,279
are very very susceptible to infections

692
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,279
and uh most deaths occur during

693
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:59,600
that time. We're learning a lot more

694
00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:01,120
about deaths. I don't know whether

695
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,919
it's a question of whether we should be

696
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:05,919
more humane or anything like that. What

697
00:27:03,919 --> 00:27:09,120
I think we should be asking about is the

698
00:27:05,919 --> 00:27:11,480
quality of the pathologist reports. One

699
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:14,480
of the pathologists said the chances of

700
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:17,679
two cop deaths in one family are one in

701
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:20,480
73 million. It turns out if anything

702
00:27:17,679 --> 00:27:24,640
it's about one in a 100 and it may be

703
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:28,880
even less. The other one concealed it

704
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:32,320
seems to me uh evidence of a severe

705
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:35,039
staff uh infection in the second child.

706
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,799
uh these are questions which I think are

707
00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:39,279
more serious because I think it's very

708
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:42,720
difficult to say whether two cop deaths

709
00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:45,840
are um in one family means murder. Um

710
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:49,840
but I think what we have to say is that

711
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:52,559
in these cases you must have pediatric

712
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:55,520
uh pathologists not general pathologists

713
00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:57,919
because a pediatric path um pathologist

714
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,919
knows more about child development and

715
00:27:57,919 --> 00:28:02,000
baby development and immune systems and

716
00:27:59,919 --> 00:28:04,480
so on than the general one who goes

717
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,880
around you know as in movies and uh

718
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,559
things you know just picking up. They

719
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,559
did ask they did ask I heard this

720
00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:12,880
evening uh in a discussion about this

721
00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:15,520
the lawyer for Sally Clark said that

722
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,600
they did ask for a child pathologist a

723
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,760
pediatric pathologist and the police

724
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,120
apparently said no no our pathologist is

725
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,960
adequate but he was a general

726
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:25,120
pathologist he was doing all sorts of

727
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,760
murder the man in the yellow tie there

728
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:30,080
is what's happened to that lady you just

729
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:33,039
have to look at the pictures of her uh

730
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:35,840
before her trial and the pictures that

731
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:37,120
we saw her on her acquitt at the court

732
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,760
of appeal

733
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:43,360
It's ruined her life. It's possibly gone

734
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:46,080
a long way to ruining many uh good other

735
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:48,480
lives as well. I was going to raise the

736
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:51,360
point that an Leslie did mention uh

737
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:54,320
about that path the pediatrician who

738
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,840
gave that grossly misleading statistic

739
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,120
and that's the sort of thing that's got

740
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:01,120
to be eradicated from our system. What

741
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,720
saddens me is that hold a second. Come

742
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,520
back to your m the man there with the

743
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,720
black Yes. You said now you've got a

744
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,799
black shirt on. At least it looks like

745
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,480
it. Right. Sorry. Yeah. Um it seems to

746
00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:11,919
me as though from what we've heard that

747
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,480
some information has been withheld as

748
00:29:11,919 --> 00:29:17,679
well, vital information. And it makes me

749
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,440
wonder whether um our justice system our

750
00:29:17,679 --> 00:29:21,120
system is trying to actually determine

751
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,720
the truth or just gain a conviction.

752
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:27,360
That's right. Okay. And and

753
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,360
you in the front row. Yes.

754
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,840
Although this uh pathologist wasn't a

755
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,919
pediatric pathologist, is he is he going

756
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:37,360
to face any charges? Well, he's having

757
00:29:33,919 --> 00:29:39,520
some inquiries made this vital evidence.

758
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,120
Okay. I think there's several issues we

759
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,399
need to learn from the case. The first

760
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,320
is just the length of the whole

761
00:29:42,399 --> 00:29:46,240
procedure when somebody has got such a

762
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,640
strong case for appeal. Why does it just

763
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,480
take so long? Secondly, there was and

764
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,919
has already been an appeal and they went

765
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,360
through the appeal process and none of

766
00:29:51,919 --> 00:29:55,520
this came up even through that appeal

767
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,679
process. So, what went wrong there?

768
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,360
Thirdly, the jury asked for some of this

769
00:29:57,679 --> 00:30:00,720
information to be given to them, but it

770
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,559
was actually withheld from the first

771
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,399
jury. So, something's gone wrong there.

772
00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:06,399
And then finally, I think we do need to

773
00:30:04,399 --> 00:30:08,559
learn much more about the whole question

774
00:30:06,399 --> 00:30:10,159
of cot death, postnatal depression, all

775
00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:11,480
of these issues, there is so much

776
00:30:10,159 --> 00:30:13,760
misinformation and lack of

777
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,640
understanding. So, I hope from what is

778
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,240
an awful story, uh, it's a it's a it's a

779
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,600
lovely story in another way. The way in

780
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,039
which a husband and wife just hung

781
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,880
together and stayed through this so

782
00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:25,200
strongly. I hope some good can come of

783
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,279
it. And never again when this kind of

784
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,960
thing is raised again will we have the

785
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:30,399
kind of medical evidence just brushed

786
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,080
over. I think some very serious

787
00:30:30,399 --> 00:30:33,600
questions will be asked in every court

788
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,039
case which follows and that at least

789
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,360
will be some good that's come from this

790
00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:39,120
awful case. But the tragic thing is that

791
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,919
the thing about the Clarks, they were a

792
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,480
loving middleclass legally trained

793
00:30:41,919 --> 00:30:47,360
couple. They could go on fighting. There

794
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:50,080
are other cases of women who are in

795
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,320
prison who are workingass who don't have

796
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,640
that uh knowledge who don't have that

797
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,799
clout who don't have stars like Martin

798
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,279
Bell you know campaigning on their

799
00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:02,000
behalf and I think that is really

800
00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:04,880
seriously dangerous man in the front row

801
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,799
here then surprised that such a grossly

802
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,640
misleading statistic like that wasn't

803
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:10,559
picked up by somebody else in the court

804
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,080
at the time when it was read out or by a

805
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:13,600
colleague indeed or whether by the judge

806
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,679
or the jury I mean if I was in the jury

807
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,320
and heard a statistic like that, the

808
00:31:15,679 --> 00:31:20,080
first thing I'd do is, you know, check

809
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,640
out that fact for myself because it even

810
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,200
sounds completely ridiculous. George G.

811
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,120
Well, statistics, damned lies and

812
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,720
statistics are used all the time to

813
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,159
bamboozle people and unless they've got

814
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,399
the expertise to challenge it, they

815
00:31:30,159 --> 00:31:33,760
often go unchallenged. But the original

816
00:31:32,399 --> 00:31:36,000
question was about the presumption of

817
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,519
innocence. And I actually think the

818
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,600
presumption of innocence is being

819
00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:41,120
steadily and quite dramatically eroded

820
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,440
in this country. We've seen it in a

821
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,679
number of cases recently, pedophile

822
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,320
cases for example, where the media finds

823
00:31:45,679 --> 00:31:50,000
somebody guilty or rape cases where they

824
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,279
found somebody guilty before the matter

825
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:55,200
has even uh started the due legal uh

826
00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:57,519
process. We've seen it in terrorist

827
00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:01,360
cases. And in this case, I think you're

828
00:31:57,519 --> 00:32:03,039
right. The woman was held to be uh

829
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,799
responsible for proving her own

830
00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:06,640
innocence. And of course, the process of

831
00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:09,919
the trial was appalling. I just say

832
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:12,159
this, David, lastly, if this woman had

833
00:32:09,919 --> 00:32:14,960
lived in Texas, she'd have been

834
00:32:12,159 --> 00:32:16,960
electrocuted by now. And so for those

835
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,039
for those who who still cling to the

836
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,120
idea that it's a good idea to execute

837
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:23,360
people and have the death penalty, this

838
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,799
woman for killing two children would

839
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:29,200
have been executed by now. Right.

840
00:32:26,799 --> 00:32:30,720
It does a lot of nonsense. I'm against

841
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,799
the death penalty. But they don't

842
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,279
execute women who've been accused of

843
00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:37,120
move. That's absolutely untrue. They've

844
00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:39,120
just done it in America. They've just

845
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,720
killed a woman who killed her children.

846
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:44,159
She drove them into a lake and let them

847
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:47,519
drown. You do talk nonsense and you

848
00:32:44,159 --> 00:32:50,399
talk. She was convicted of murder. She

849
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:53,519
was convicted of murder. And in the

850
00:32:50,399 --> 00:32:55,919
United States in the United A woman has

851
00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:58,080
just been executed for precisely this,

852
00:32:55,919 --> 00:32:59,679
killing her children. These were not

853
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,320
caught death. They were murder according

854
00:32:59,679 --> 00:33:04,640
to the jury. They should have their own

855
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:07,200
show. Yes, I think moving around in a

856
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:10,320
moment. Do calm down. Robin, you telling

857
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,000
me to come. Robin McConnell, please. Mr.

858
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,120
McConnell, can you stir things up for

859
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:18,240
us? Do you think John Prescott as a

860
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:21,760
former active union official is right to

861
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:25,240
change the law to end a a democratically

862
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:28,000
balloted strike by the firefighters?

863
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,519
Mark, it's gone on too long. I've got

864
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,960
concerns about this dispute because

865
00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:32,799
clearly with the troops who are having

866
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,399
to step in and the pressure that may be

867
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:36,320
on them in the next couple of months, we

868
00:33:34,399 --> 00:33:38,080
need to settle this very quickly. But

869
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,159
because we need to settle it quickly, I

870
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,760
actually think Prescott is wrong. If you

871
00:33:40,159 --> 00:33:43,600
really want to resolve this issue, then

872
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,159
the kind of macho language which he's

873
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,679
talking about about forcing a government

874
00:33:46,159 --> 00:33:49,360
settlement on these individuals is

875
00:33:47,679 --> 00:33:51,360
actually just going to harden opinion

876
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,519
amongst the firefighters. What I think

877
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,919
we should put in place is some form of

878
00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:57,840
compulsory arbitration so that we

879
00:33:55,919 --> 00:34:00,320
actually force both sides to get back

880
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,399
round the table and discuss this issue.

881
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,080
What's compulsory arbitration?

882
00:34:02,399 --> 00:34:06,240
Compulsory basically what the government

883
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,919
told they disagree. What do you do then?

884
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,760
Well, this should be the next step that

885
00:34:07,919 --> 00:34:11,359
is taken. Now it may very well be that

886
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,879
we end up with a point where you do have

887
00:34:11,359 --> 00:34:14,560
to impose a settlement but we're not

888
00:34:12,879 --> 00:34:16,399
there yet. The need sorry. What is

889
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,079
compulsory arbitration? You go to jail

890
00:34:16,399 --> 00:34:20,000
if you don't go to the arbitration. you

891
00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:21,839
get fined or how do you work compulsory

892
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,440
arbitration? You require both sides to

893
00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:25,280
go around, sit around the table and

894
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,960
actually have independent arbitration.

895
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,320
But what's your clout to do that? The

896
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,599
the same clout that the government are

897
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,800
suggesting and putting in place that

898
00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:32,480
ultimately there'll be an end process

899
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,159
where you will have to take control on

900
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,440
this. But at the moment, the government

901
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,560
aren't talking about getting around the

902
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,159
table. Jen, what do you think about

903
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,240
Prescuit's intervention? Well, what John

904
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:42,560
Prescuit is actually talking about is

905
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:44,480
taking powers to impose a settlement,

906
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:47,359
but that won't actually settle the

907
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:50,399
strike. uh what he has at his disposal

908
00:34:47,359 --> 00:34:52,879
now is powers which the lab Labor

909
00:34:50,399 --> 00:34:55,040
government used in the 1970s to stop a

910
00:34:52,879 --> 00:34:56,480
fire strike when they decided it was a

911
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,240
threat to public safety and they keep

912
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,680
saying it is a threat to public safety

913
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:02,320
they could apply to the court for an

914
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,839
injunction and stop the strike now and

915
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,000
that's what we're suggesting he he

916
00:35:03,839 --> 00:35:08,800
should do and then there would be uh

917
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,560
nowhere for the union to go but I

918
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,800
suppose compulsory arbitration you would

919
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,000
actually say you stop the strike what

920
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,240
would you do if they refused to go back

921
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,599
to work well What you do is you put an

922
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:18,800
injunction on the union to stop

923
00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:20,640
organizing the strike. That's

924
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,160
legislation that's worked worked before

925
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,280
and it's legislation that a Labor

926
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,119
government has used before. And if they

927
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,880
ignore it, what do you do? It will work.

928
00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:29,359
Uh it's worked before, has been used

929
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,760
before, and it will work. Uh the the

930
00:35:29,359 --> 00:35:33,760
tragedy of the present strike is that

931
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,920
the firefighters have been led up the

932
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,359
garden path by their union. Uh the

933
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,240
leader of the fire brigades union is

934
00:35:37,359 --> 00:35:42,480
like a latter-day Arthur Skgill. Uh he's

935
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:44,320
led his people up a blind alley. there's

936
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,000
no possibility that the government is

937
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,160
going to give any kind of settlement

938
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,079
along the lines that he's suggesting and

939
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,480
in fact the longer that it goes on like

940
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:53,839
Arthur Skargle's miners uh the more

941
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,680
firefighters are going to lose their

942
00:35:53,839 --> 00:35:56,800
jobs and the more fire fire stations are

943
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,760
going to be closed by the government.

944
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,320
Let me go to the question. It would be

945
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,839
far better if they got back to work to

946
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,640
start with, took the pressure off the

947
00:36:01,839 --> 00:36:07,320
armed forces, which is a disgrace and uh

948
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:10,000
shouldn't be happening,

949
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,320
and and settled down to the practical

950
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,920
discussions about how to settle the

951
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,079
dispute rather than carrying on with

952
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,440
what is now quite obviously a pointless

953
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:19,200
strike. And I fear most of the

954
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,480
firefighters know that, but they don't

955
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,440
know how to get out. Robin McConnell,

956
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,800
what do you think? You asked the

957
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:27,119
question. What's your view? I would like

958
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:29,760
uh a negotiated settlement. I'd be very

959
00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:31,520
concerned about any imposition of law as

960
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,280
a trade union member for most of my

961
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,400
working life. It would go against the

962
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,240
grain for me to have the the weight of

963
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,359
the law to decide this strike. And I

964
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:41,200
think there's a world of difference

965
00:36:39,359 --> 00:36:44,640
between Andy Gilchrist and Arthur

966
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:47,119
Scarwell. Okay. Mr. Gilchrist at least

967
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,200
took took the action on the back of a

968
00:36:47,119 --> 00:36:51,839
Democratic ballot

969
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,599
which Mr. Scargle didn't. Okay. and and

970
00:36:51,839 --> 00:36:55,440
you said in the third row there just a

971
00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:57,680
couple of points being a trade union

972
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,800
official myself I believe Mark Oen is

973
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,160
correct there has to be a negotiated

974
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,760
settlement I think Mr. Jenin is an

975
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,680
absolute disgrace when he calls

976
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,640
firefighters idiots I never called them

977
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,640
idiots I believe if Mr. Jenke's house

978
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,200
was burning down. What he is he saying

979
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,040
he would ring up a bunch of idiots and I

980
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,040
think he's a disgrace. There has to be a

981
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,880
settlement. I I certainly think the fire

982
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,839
brigades union are a bunch of idiots

983
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,880
because I think they've led the

984
00:37:19,839 --> 00:37:24,960
firefighters up the garden path and uh

985
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,280
but the firefighters themselves I think

986
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,240
they're a fantastic bunch and uh they

987
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:34,000
should be recognized as such and this

988
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:36,760
union is is that recognized by a 4% in

989
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:39,359
job cuts and award

990
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,040
itself pay award I I'm in parliament at

991
00:37:39,359 --> 00:37:43,359
the moment to speak for the armed forces

992
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:46,079
they haven't had a 4% increase in years

993
00:37:43,359 --> 00:37:46,079
the average squad

994
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:50,640
Are you are you are you sorry are you

995
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,640
saying that the firefighters the

996
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,400
firefighters who you admire aren't any

997
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,839
longer supporting the strike? I think

998
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,960
you'll find or you admire them but they

999
00:37:55,839 --> 00:37:58,640
are supporting the strike which you

1000
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,240
disagree with. I admire the work they do

1001
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,560
which is frequently difficult and

1002
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:04,880
dangerous but the soldiers who are doing

1003
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,280
that job uh when the firefighters are on

1004
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,960
strike are already paid much less. They

1005
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,560
have to modernize. It's called Queen's

1006
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,720
regulations. They don't have a chance to

1007
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,200
go on strike to negotiate their terms of

1008
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:17,200
conditions. They also can be called

1009
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:20,000
overseas possibly to die for their

1010
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:22,000
country. And I think it's a disgrace

1011
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,280
that the that the that the fire brigades

1012
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,960
union is disrupting uh the family lives

1013
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,680
of soldiers who may be going abroad to

1014
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,440
fight for their country uh when they are

1015
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,880
the firefighters themselves are already

1016
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,079
paid substantially more than soldiers.

1017
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,520
You convinced by that and they get

1018
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:37,280
second jobs? Absolutely not. I'm sure

1019
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,960
the firefighters would love the sort of

1020
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:43,520
pay rise Mr. Jenin had uh and other MPs

1021
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,599
had over the last few years. The lady of

1022
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,680
the fourth row there. You Mr. Blair

1023
00:38:45,599 --> 00:38:51,560
wants to stop pussyfooting about and

1024
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,560
give him a decent wage.

1025
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:59,839
George firefighters every time they turn

1026
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,839
up for work are ready to die for their

1027
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:04,720
country. And the union is not some

1028
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:07,599
other. The union is made up of the brave

1029
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:09,359
men and women that if you call them 999

1030
00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:11,680
tonight will be ready to plunge into a

1031
00:39:09,359 --> 00:39:13,839
burning building for money that Bernard

1032
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,520
Jenin wouldn't get out of bed for. Let

1033
00:39:13,839 --> 00:39:17,040
me assure you about that. So what do you

1034
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,440
think of John Prescott's action? I think

1035
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,320
it's a despicable act and I think that

1036
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,079
it has turned the stomach of genuine

1037
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,480
decent labor people the length and

1038
00:39:24,079 --> 00:39:29,680
breadth of the country and I hope he

1039
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:32,079
knows that he's being made a psy by the

1040
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,240
cabinet when they put him up to do it.

1041
00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:36,880
The man with his credentials, his

1042
00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:39,119
background, his trade union history to

1043
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,599
be put up to stab the firefighters in

1044
00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:43,720
the back is an absolutely despicable act

1045
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:47,680
of treachery. He never

1046
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:50,320
looks he never looks like like a No. And

1047
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,240
I I I'm I was I was one of those

1048
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,480
campaigning for him to be the leader of

1049
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:58,320
the Labour Party in 1994. And I'm

1050
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,240
absolutely I'm absolut Well, I think he

1051
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,240
might have done a better job than uh has

1052
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:04,320
been done, but anyway, he didn't get the

1053
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:07,119
job, but I'll tell you what job he's got

1054
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:10,880
now. The job he's got now is to be put

1055
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:13,040
up to spit on his own history, to spit

1056
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,839
on everything he used to believe in. And

1057
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:18,320
these firefighters are an integral part,

1058
00:40:15,839 --> 00:40:21,200
a pillar of the Labor Party. They've

1059
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:24,480
stood by the Labor Party in dark days.

1060
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:27,200
and for the government to be effectively

1061
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,960
um making them forced labor because

1062
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,520
that's what it's called. This binding

1063
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,880
arbitration and forcing them back to

1064
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:37,839
work. That's called slavery in other

1065
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:41,040
countries. Men, men and women, men and

1066
00:40:37,839 --> 00:40:42,800
women in a free country are entitled.

1067
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,720
Look, if we've got money to go around

1068
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,720
the world setting fire to other people's

1069
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:48,640
countries, we've got money to pay the

1070
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:52,000
firefighters a decent wage. Georgeay,

1071
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:54,480
thank you. And Leslie and the

1072
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:57,359
brief. I've always thought that this uh

1073
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,599
whole dispute was a question of lions,

1074
00:40:57,359 --> 00:41:02,079
i.e. the firefighters, led by donkeys,

1075
00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:04,240
i.e. the FBU. And now we're going to put

1076
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:07,480
in another donkey, try and sort it out.

1077
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:07,480
John Prescott.

1078
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:16,319
What I believe is that uh the FBU made

1079
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:18,720
such a mess of this dispute with a 40%

1080
00:41:16,319 --> 00:41:21,200
increase which is more than you know

1081
00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:24,079
nurses were getting and so on. And this

1082
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:26,880
idea that uh George has is that all the

1083
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:29,520
firefighters do all the time is running

1084
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:33,520
into buildings rescuing you know burning

1085
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:36,480
babies nonsense. 10% of their time is

1086
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,400
spent on that. They don't know which 10%

1087
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,760
I respect. I respect and the rest of the

1088
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,640
time they're dragging out people from

1089
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,760
traffic accidents and doing things like

1090
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,680
that. A lot of other things they are

1091
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,440
doing that they have an enormous

1092
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,440
increase in work to that. This is

1093
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,200
somebody who gets £100,000 a year for

1094
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,319
pontificating in a newspaper. How do you

1095
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:56,880
know about my my salary? Now before you

1096
00:41:54,319 --> 00:41:58,319
before you two start work for the same

1097
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,400
like having terrible twins on the

1098
00:41:58,319 --> 00:42:02,720
program. Look, could you could you Why

1099
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,640
don't we do a musical act? Let's let's

1100
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:07,280
No, let's let's do the let's do John

1101
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:09,520
Prescuit and the union uh um the credit

1102
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,440
of taking the issue seriously. Could you

1103
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,359
just answer this and then we'll move on.

1104
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,520
Do you think that John Prescuit is right

1105
00:42:13,359 --> 00:42:18,480
to change the law to try and bring an

1106
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,640
end to the strike? I think that probably

1107
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,280
it's the only alternative particularly

1108
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:25,599
if we are on the brink of war. I'm sorry

1109
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:28,240
that it's going to be him in charge and

1110
00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:31,680
he hasn't got to change the law. There

1111
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:33,599
are sections of the law 1947 and so on

1112
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,920
which will enable him to do it. So he's

1113
00:42:33,599 --> 00:42:38,640
not having to change the law. I think in

1114
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,800
fact if we went to war I think the

1115
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,280
firefighters themselves would call off

1116
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,560
the strike and settle for what they're

1117
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,839
offered. Okay. I'm going to take one

1118
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,359
more point from the man in the yellow

1119
00:42:45,839 --> 00:42:48,720
tide there who's waving his hand

1120
00:42:47,359 --> 00:42:50,000
vigorously. And I would have brought you

1121
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:52,160
in but I'll bring you on the next one.

1122
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,960
Yes. Yeah. It's been reported by uh John

1123
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,359
Prescott that the uh strikes cost 70

1124
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,960
million pounds of the taxpayers money.

1125
00:42:57,359 --> 00:43:00,480
Isn't it time that the strikes ended

1126
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,480
now? A million a day is what he says.

1127
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,760
Well, that's your view. Okay. Uh on that

1128
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,560
note, I'm going to move on. And this is

1129
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,640
a question, please, from Claire Strain.

1130
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,960
Claire Strain,

1131
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:14,280
are the Conservatives trying to sneak

1132
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:17,119
the asylum seekers issue onto the

1133
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,480
anti-terrorist bandwagon in order to

1134
00:43:17,119 --> 00:43:21,440
gain popular support for it?

1135
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,400
Conservatives sneaking the asylum

1136
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,839
seekers issue onto the anti-terrorist

1137
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,000
bandwagon to gain popular support.

1138
00:43:25,839 --> 00:43:30,640
George Galloway. Yes, they are. And not

1139
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,880
only the conservatives, many others uh

1140
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,599
from whom it's less expected are doing

1141
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:40,240
the same thing. This conflation of

1142
00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:43,680
asylum, immigration, race, Islam, and

1143
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:45,920
war, and terrorism is being made

1144
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:48,480
deliberately to stir up people's

1145
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:51,760
feelings against the other, against the

1146
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:54,079
alien, to build support for war by

1147
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:56,160
Bernard Jenkins party and also by some

1148
00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:58,079
people who should be even more ashamed

1149
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,280
of themselves. Don't get me wrong. Who

1150
00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:00,880
are the people who should be even more

1151
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,040
ashamed of themselves? Well, there are

1152
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:06,400
all sorts of people who are making the

1153
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:08,079
most reckless statements. I'll I'll I'll

1154
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:11,040
just name one of them, the Home

1155
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:13,599
Secretary, David Blancet, who actually

1156
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:16,480
lectured people on speaking their own

1157
00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:18,800
language in their own house. He said

1158
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:21,040
they'd get schizophrenic if they didn't

1159
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:24,319
speak English even in their own houses.

1160
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:27,280
And I think that that kind of uh casual,

1161
00:44:24,319 --> 00:44:30,480
reckless statement helps build the kind

1162
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:32,560
of support for racist ideas that led to

1163
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,119
a fascist party winning a seat on the

1164
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,839
Halifax Council just a couple of days

1165
00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:40,560
ago. We need to cool this issue. All

1166
00:44:37,839 --> 00:44:42,480
responsible people of whatever political

1167
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,480
stripe, if they want to have a

1168
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,720
harmonious country, should be cooling

1169
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:50,760
this issue down, not inflaming it by

1170
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,760
throwing petrol on the fire.

1171
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,599
Bernard Bernard

1172
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:57,440
Jenkins Bernard Jenkins. Well, it is

1173
00:44:55,599 --> 00:44:59,839
gets to a pretty pass, doesn't it, when

1174
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,520
you cannot actually discuss what is a

1175
00:44:59,839 --> 00:45:04,880
very major issue, which is the question

1176
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,640
of asylum. Um because some left-wing

1177
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,720
lunatic is going to jump on you and say

1178
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:11,440
you're stirring up a a racist war. I

1179
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:13,920
tell you what what gives the uh gives a

1180
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:16,240
purchase for the for the fascists to win

1181
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,079
council elections. It's the complacency

1182
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:20,079
of politicians who somehow think this

1183
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:23,640
doesn't matter so that people who live

1184
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:26,079
in areas uh where they have high ethnic

1185
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,640
populations begin to feel genuinely

1186
00:45:26,079 --> 00:45:31,280
afraid about who is living in their

1187
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:34,000
area. So what we've got to do is first

1188
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,920
of all get a grip of who is coming in

1189
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,319
and out of our country. Get control of

1190
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,160
our borders. make sure that we identify

1191
00:45:38,319 --> 00:45:42,480
the terrorists before they come in so

1192
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,319
that people don't think that's an asylum

1193
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,079
seeker, that must be a terrorist because

1194
00:45:44,319 --> 00:45:48,319
that is that is the situation we've got

1195
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:51,359
because we have lost control of the

1196
00:45:48,319 --> 00:45:54,160
asylum issue. We also need to look at uh

1197
00:45:51,359 --> 00:45:55,440
uh giving genuine refugees a fairer deal

1198
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,599
because they're the people that get

1199
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,079
caught up in all this because the asylum

1200
00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:02,400
system is overloaded with with people

1201
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:03,839
who aren't genuine asylum seekers. We

1202
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,319
need to address this is the policy we

1203
00:46:03,839 --> 00:46:08,160
announced this week the whole question

1204
00:46:06,319 --> 00:46:10,880
of article three of the human European

1205
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,880
commission on human rights which stops

1206
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,440
uh even if you identify a terrorist

1207
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,280
who's come in pretending to be a san you

1208
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,040
can't deport that terrorist back to

1209
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,720
their country of origin under the

1210
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,200
European Commission on Human Rights.

1211
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:25,040
That's clearly crazy. Uh we've got a lot

1212
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,040
of work to do but the government is got

1213
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,880
itself tied in knots. It's desperately

1214
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,040
split on this issue and the and the

1215
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:34,319
issue is going nowhere. So I make no

1216
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:36,720
apology for launching a policy this week

1217
00:46:34,319 --> 00:46:38,480
to deal with the fact uh that it is

1218
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:39,680
quite obvious that one of the ways that

1219
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,000
the terrorists who are trying to get

1220
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,160
into this country is by walking in and

1221
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,480
claiming an asylum or even getting into

1222
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,240
this country and then claiming asylum as

1223
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,640
from in country. the the woman in the

1224
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:51,640
second row.

1225
00:46:53,599 --> 00:46:58,000
I'm a wife of a genuine asylum seeker

1226
00:46:56,079 --> 00:47:02,720
who was actually deported back to Kosovo

1227
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:05,040
this Sunday and um and we had a

1228
00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:07,280
horrendous time trying to do everything

1229
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:10,480
by the book and we actually paid for him

1230
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:12,800
to go back and we did everything by the

1231
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,400
book. We paid for legal advice and

1232
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,240
things like that and all the time it

1233
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,720
really opened my eyes seeing how many

1234
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:20,800
people how many false claims and things

1235
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:22,560
but what I'm actually saying is as my

1236
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,440
husband he's been my husband for 15

1237
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,760
months and we've been together three

1238
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:30,640
years we were stopped quite a few times

1239
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,960
um on when he was in the car and he was

1240
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,960
stopped by police sometimes and saying

1241
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,359
what's your name are you a Muslim or and

1242
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:40,079
he the last few years has been very

1243
00:47:37,359 --> 00:47:42,240
difficult and it's opened my eyes to

1244
00:47:40,079 --> 00:47:44,160
what black people have had to encounter

1245
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:46,240
because I live in Birmingham and it was

1246
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,200
and he's now back and we're trying to go

1247
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:51,119
through the process from Kosovo and now

1248
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,920
it's we can't do it in Kosovo because

1249
00:47:51,119 --> 00:47:55,960
they sorry what do you think of the of

1250
00:47:53,920 --> 00:48:00,079
the government and the Conservative

1251
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:03,040
party's attitude to asylum seekers?

1252
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:06,960
Well, I'm not um not very not very good.

1253
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:09,680
Um I'm I do appreciate it's the the

1254
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,000
whole system is absolutely choking at

1255
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,760
the seams

1256
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:16,720
and people my colleagues my friends

1257
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:19,200
cannot believe that we've tried we are

1258
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:21,280
real and we've you know I'm British and

1259
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,640
we're married but we can't we've done

1260
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:27,680
everything by the book and

1261
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:30,440
yet it's the system is just too vast the

1262
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:33,599
corruption the bribery

1263
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,040
and there's so much to say Okay. And

1264
00:48:33,599 --> 00:48:36,880
Leslie's nodding in agreement. And

1265
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,240
Patrick Jenin, Bernard Jenin, I'm sorry,

1266
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,160
I've done it before, is nodding in

1267
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:43,520
agreement. Um, well, I I totally agree.

1268
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:46,160
The problem is a complete shambles. So,

1269
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,960
nobody can tell who is genuine, who is

1270
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:51,760
not, the amount of corruption, the false

1271
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,520
ID cards, and so on and so forth. And

1272
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:56,160
it's got to the stage where, frankly, if

1273
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:58,000
Saddam Hussein, uh, George's great

1274
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,839
friend with whom he shares so many No,

1275
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,520
please, let's just stick to the point.

1276
00:48:59,839 --> 00:49:02,760
Let's not trade himself. Let's try and

1277
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,760
get these

1278
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:09,680
question send his entire Republican

1279
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:12,559
guard to do where they could then claim

1280
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:14,480
asylum and be allowed in and disappear

1281
00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:17,280
into the woodworks. It is a shambles.

1282
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:19,760
And so your husband is suffering as much

1283
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,760
as anybody from the shambles. I think

1284
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:24,000
the fact that he's a Muslim, this is has

1285
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:26,960
been a situation because he's a Muslim,

1286
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,960
he's had really quite bad experience.

1287
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:32,319
Um, but we've been stopped. He's been

1288
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,960
stopped many times in the car uh and

1289
00:49:32,319 --> 00:49:36,880
look for papers and your surname and

1290
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,800
it's we've really noticed it a lot.

1291
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,520
Okay. The the man in the with in in the

1292
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,359
dark pull over there. Second in Yes, you

1293
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:46,480
sir. I've been I've been friends with a

1294
00:49:43,359 --> 00:49:48,880
Muslim who for like a year now and I've

1295
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,480
been he he's a driver and I've been in

1296
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,640
his car for the past year now and he

1297
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,800
hasn't been stopped once. So, how can

1298
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,720
you claim that? there just because he's

1299
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,400
been stopped in his car is a claim. He

1300
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:00,480
just gives his asylum seeker. Okay. And

1301
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:03,680
you sir in the front here with the blue

1302
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,760
blue tie. Yes. Um I think it's about

1303
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:08,319
time we move back to conservative based

1304
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:11,119
principles where compassion is exercised

1305
00:50:08,319 --> 00:50:13,200
with objectivity and it would enable

1306
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:15,760
them everybody to get a control of this

1307
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,839
situation. Right. So you would you would

1308
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,359
would want to see the law toughened up

1309
00:50:17,839 --> 00:50:24,000
and and asylum seekers imprisoned while

1310
00:50:21,359 --> 00:50:25,599
they're checked or or or put in rather

1311
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,079
than imprisoned. Imprisoned is an

1312
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:30,480
emotive term but certainly compassion

1313
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:34,480
with objectivity. Yes. And and you mad

1314
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:38,200
in in the Yes. You in the pink. Uh yes.

1315
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:41,839
Because I think that 95% of these are

1316
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:43,920
not asylum seekers. They are illegal

1317
00:50:41,839 --> 00:50:46,559
immigrants. Okay. You think they're not

1318
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,400
genuine? All right. Yes. Don't don't

1319
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:52,480
read it. Just say say speak your mind.

1320
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:56,240
All say is that all Mr. Blair says is

1321
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:58,720
more dramatic steps need to be taken.

1322
00:50:56,240 --> 00:51:02,480
How true. Let's get rid of him as prime

1323
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:04,160
minister. Okay. And the man in the front

1324
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,839
row here on the left, please. Okay. I

1325
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,079
mean I I find it quite amazing that

1326
00:51:05,839 --> 00:51:10,079
so-called intelligent people can sit

1327
00:51:08,079 --> 00:51:12,160
there and just for a small political

1328
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:13,520
gain they can kind of attack these

1329
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,920
asylum seekers and say why are they

1330
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:18,880
coming here being a second generation my

1331
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,880
father was he came here through asylum

1332
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,200
the reason why these people come here

1333
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,040
the reason why these people they they

1334
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,599
get on board things that could hardly be

1335
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,440
called boats to escape what's happening

1336
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:31,200
in their lands and the devastation that

1337
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,680
has been caused on their lands is

1338
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,599
directly due to the colonization of

1339
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,599
their lands by the west and these people

1340
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:39,359
they come to seek refuge from these. So

1341
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:41,440
if you want to solve the problem of

1342
00:51:39,359 --> 00:51:44,000
asylum seekers then I think you really

1343
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,440
need to go deeper on this and can solve

1344
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,440
the reasons why these people are coming

1345
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,440
from

1346
00:51:49,359 --> 00:51:53,119
I I it's worth acknowledging I think

1347
00:51:51,599 --> 00:51:54,720
Bernard's language tonight was was

1348
00:51:53,119 --> 00:51:56,640
tolerant and measured on this issue.

1349
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:58,319
Unfortunately not all politicians have

1350
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,920
actually taken that position and I've

1351
00:51:58,319 --> 00:52:01,680
heard some pretty outrageous remarks in

1352
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,880
the past. It is difficult as a

1353
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,400
politician because you know you want to

1354
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,599
get clapped by an audience like this.

1355
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,800
But I'm going to say things that you

1356
00:52:05,599 --> 00:52:08,400
probably won't agree with and you might

1357
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,000
want to boo about. But I feel very

1358
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,680
passionately that we ought to have a

1359
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,000
much more tolerant approach on this

1360
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:16,000
whole issue. That we ought to not have

1361
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,160
inflammatory language and we ought not

1362
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,760
to have this rather macho battle in some

1363
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,599
of the right-wing press to see who can

1364
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,359
work up the nasty headlines on asylum

1365
00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:25,280
seekers. There is a lot of nonsense

1366
00:52:23,359 --> 00:52:27,040
written about frankly on this issue.

1367
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,440
What I do think needs to happen is that

1368
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,559
we must yes speed the process up. I

1369
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,079
don't think it's going to be effective

1370
00:52:30,559 --> 00:52:33,359
to start ripping up international

1371
00:52:32,079 --> 00:52:35,200
treaties. I don't think the

1372
00:52:33,359 --> 00:52:36,800
conservatives idea of building these

1373
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,800
centers all over the country is

1374
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,480
practical. It will cost a lot of money

1375
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,400
and even in their own shadow home

1376
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,640
secretaries constituency, nobody wants

1377
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,960
the suggested center there anyway. What

1378
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,760
we must do is speed the process up,

1379
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:52,079
tackle this and also work with our

1380
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,760
European partners so that they do also

1381
00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:57,359
take some of the burden of this issue as

1382
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:59,240
well. Okay, let me in the in the second

1383
00:52:57,359 --> 00:53:02,480
row here.

1384
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:04,240
Could we also cover the co the cost to

1385
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,800
the National Health Service of the

1386
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:11,520
asylum seekers coming in with the health

1387
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,520
risks that they bring with them i.e. TB

1388
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:16,319
small and um yes you sir with the

1389
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,440
spectacles on there. Thank you very

1390
00:53:16,319 --> 00:53:21,200
much. A genuine asylum seeker would come

1391
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:24,440
to the first country that offered him a

1392
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,440
safe haven.

1393
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,960
And and I feel that these are not

1394
00:53:29,359 --> 00:53:33,280
genuine asylum seekers when they're

1395
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:35,200
prepared to hang off the back of trains,

1396
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,440
sitting in freezing lines, and come to a

1397
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,760
country which they think is a soft

1398
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,720
touch.

1399
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:44,160
Okay. Well,

1400
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:46,480
we we talked about we talked about

1401
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,920
asylum seekers last week and this week

1402
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,839
and no doubt next week as well because

1403
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,240
it's a key issue. But I want to go on to

1404
00:53:49,839 --> 00:53:55,599
a final question from Richard McDermad.

1405
00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:58,280
Richard McDermad, please. Yes. Um,

1406
00:53:55,599 --> 00:54:01,599
what's the panel's views on the new sex

1407
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:04,800
laws, sex law reforms outlined by the

1408
00:54:01,599 --> 00:54:06,640
Home Office, which allows gay men to

1409
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:09,200
engage in having sex in public

1410
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:11,359
lavatories. What's your view of it? My

1411
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,000
view is that I've got no problem with

1412
00:54:11,359 --> 00:54:16,160
sexuality of any person, but I do

1413
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,240
believe that it should be done within

1414
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,160
their own private houses or hotels, but

1415
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:22,160
not in a public lavatory. Apparently

1416
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,160
also um uh people are allowed to do it

1417
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,839
in their bedrooms with the curtains open

1418
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,680
uh if it even if it can be seen from the

1419
00:54:25,839 --> 00:54:29,040
street but not in the garden. Correct.

1420
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:32,240
That's right. And Leslie, what do you

1421
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:35,119
think about these reforms? Well, I

1422
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:39,200
thought public laboratories were for

1423
00:54:35,119 --> 00:54:42,319
relieving yourself of um you know um

1424
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:45,280
certain u fluids which were not

1425
00:54:42,319 --> 00:54:46,800
connected. Careful. I think I think we

1426
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,839
better move on to somebody else. This is

1427
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:52,880
going to be your say is that a friend of

1428
00:54:49,839 --> 00:54:55,839
mine who uh uh took his uh small

1429
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:58,640
children into a public lavatory. He had

1430
00:54:55,839 --> 00:55:01,880
no idea this was well known in the quote

1431
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:04,079
unquote gay community as a

1432
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:06,720
cottage and he was absolutely

1433
00:55:04,079 --> 00:55:09,440
thunderruck at what he saw and the abuse

1434
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:11,040
he got when he said oh and and the

1435
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,880
little boys were rushed out. I think

1436
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,960
public laboratory should be for their

1437
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,559
original purposes. Okay, George

1438
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,319
Galloway.

1439
00:55:16,559 --> 00:55:20,800
Oh, she's bashed the asylum seeker.

1440
00:55:18,319 --> 00:55:23,119
She's bashing the gays. My god. I just

1441
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:25,040
think we're bashing. We're too hung up

1442
00:55:23,119 --> 00:55:27,280
about these things. I'm amazed we've got

1443
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:29,200
legislative time to legislate on this

1444
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,280
kind of rubbish. Frankly, there are far

1445
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,440
more important things that we should be

1446
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:36,240
uh getting down to, if you'll pardon the

1447
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:39,280
pun, in the in the British Parliament,

1448
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:41,680
than where people have uh have have sex

1449
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,200
or not. And public lavatory. I mean,

1450
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,240
they can have it anywhere they like. Why

1451
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,400
do they have to go into public

1452
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:48,720
laboratory where parents, you know, take

1453
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,960
their small children? I mean, I don't

1454
00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:52,640
even know if that is in the legislation.

1455
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:55,839
I very much doubt if it's framed in

1456
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:57,839
those terms. Uh I'm frankly, well, I I

1457
00:55:55,839 --> 00:55:59,839
quote I quote Tony Ben's son, Hillary,

1458
00:55:57,839 --> 00:56:02,079
who's the Home Office Minister involved,

1459
00:55:59,839 --> 00:56:03,839
who said, "If the cubicle door is open,

1460
00:56:02,079 --> 00:56:05,599
an offense is committed. If it's closed,

1461
00:56:03,839 --> 00:56:07,920
it's different." I don't want to go into

1462
00:56:05,599 --> 00:56:10,079
much more detail on this. Um Um Why did

1463
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:13,280
you choose this? Bernard Jenin. No,

1464
00:56:10,079 --> 00:56:15,200
Richard McDermad asked it. Yeah. Uh

1465
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,799
public um conveniences are not meant to

1466
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,520
be threatening places. They're meant to

1467
00:56:16,799 --> 00:56:23,440
be places where uh uh you feel safe and

1468
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:25,760
I can imagine uh as an found out that it

1469
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,839
without wishing to cast any aspersions

1470
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,440
on the gay community. Uh I'm not

1471
00:56:27,839 --> 00:56:31,040
antihomistic and the fact I was one of

1472
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,760
the first conservatives to vote for the

1473
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:36,240
equalization of the age of consent. But

1474
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,599
uh I think that public laboratories

1475
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:38,799
might become more threatening than they

1476
00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:40,400
need to be. I mean there are actually

1477
00:56:38,799 --> 00:56:43,839
gaps under the doors. So what

1478
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:45,200
constitutes a closed door? I ask you I

1479
00:56:43,839 --> 00:56:46,880
want to look at this legisl I haven't

1480
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,559
studied this. I think I saw I think I

1481
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,079
saw a picture in one of the newspapers

1482
00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:51,760
but decided it wasn't work to read that

1483
00:56:50,079 --> 00:56:53,200
bit. Mark open very briefly because

1484
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,640
we're coming to the end briefly. I hope

1485
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,160
we're moving to a more tolerant society

1486
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,839
where gay men don't feel they have to go

1487
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,920
and hide in public laboratories but can

1488
00:56:57,839 --> 00:57:02,160
actually be in society and have

1489
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:03,760
relationships in society. And as for the

1490
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,280
other issue about sex in the garden, I'm

1491
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,559
a liberal and a democrat. So as far as

1492
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,000
I'm concerned, you can do most things

1493
00:57:06,559 --> 00:57:11,280
where you like as long as the other

1494
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,559
person agrees. and the neighbors. The

1495
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,920
man in the white pull over just very

1496
00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:15,280
briefly if you would sir. Is it not the

1497
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,040
case that the whole of the sexual

1498
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,880
offenses act actually needs to be looked

1499
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:21,119
at and we shouldn't be just targeting

1500
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:23,599
one group of people. We should look at

1501
00:57:21,119 --> 00:57:25,760
the whole issue of of sex offense and

1502
00:57:23,599 --> 00:57:28,079
address it accordingly. Yes, to be fair

1503
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,520
to to the legislation, it does uh the

1504
00:57:28,079 --> 00:57:31,359
questioner just put this particular

1505
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:33,040
point. It does have a fairly wide

1506
00:57:31,359 --> 00:57:35,440
ranging effect which we can't go into

1507
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:37,200
now because our hour is up and it just

1508
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:39,119
falls to me to thank our panel very much

1509
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,720
indeed uh for for coming here to

1510
00:57:39,119 --> 00:57:42,559
Tamworth to thank all you for taking

1511
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:45,119
part in the program. We're going to be

1512
00:57:42,559 --> 00:57:46,240
in Dartmouth next week and we're going

1513
00:57:45,119 --> 00:57:49,119
to have on the panel the former

1514
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,880
education secretary Estel Morris uh Eric

1515
00:57:49,119 --> 00:57:53,040
Forth the shadow leader of the commons,

1516
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:55,440
Shirley Williams the Liberal Democrat uh

1517
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:58,319
leader in the Lords, Billy Bragg the

1518
00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,240
musician, and Aan Wilson the novelist.

1519
00:57:58,319 --> 00:58:02,480
Uh those will be our five snow

1520
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,920
permitting. And um if you'd like to join

1521
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,520
us in Bournemouth or if you'd like to

1522
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,799
come to Canavan the following week,

1523
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,079
remember to ring this number. It's on

1524
00:58:06,799 --> 00:58:14,000
the screen

1525
00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:14,000
0901441. Um or go to our website

1526
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,760
bbc.co.uk/questtime where you can

1527
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,359
comment on tonight's program. And if I

1528
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,839
said Bournemouth instead of Dartmouth, I

1529
00:58:19,359 --> 00:58:23,599
can't think why I go to Dartmouth much

1530
00:58:21,839 --> 00:58:25,680
more often than I go to Bournemouth. And

1531
00:58:23,599 --> 00:58:26,880
a very admirable place. So anyway, um

1532
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,160
you can comment on tonight's debate

1533
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,520
there. You can also tell us who you'd

1534
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:31,119
like to see on other editions of this

1535
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,559
program. So, do join us again next

1536
00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:34,210
Thursday. In the meantime, from all of

1537
00:58:32,559 --> 00:59:05,780
us here, good night.

1538
00:58:34,210 --> 00:59:05,780
[Applause]