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Oh, he's quitting, too.

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Follow the latest developments and

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analysis on the BBC News Channel online

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and the BBC News app.

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[Music]

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So, in his late night lounge, that is

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this week, Andrew Neil looking back on

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the past seven days in an hour on BBC 1.

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Before that, slightly later than build,

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it's you, the panel, and David Dimbleby.

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Chilcott Brexit party leadership.

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Another turbulent week in politics and a

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chance for voters to have their say.

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We're in Brighton tonight and welcome

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and our panel. The Labour peer who was

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justice secretary under Tony Blair,

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Charles Falconer. The Conservative MP,

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former Army officer who served alongside

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the Royal Marines in Iraq, Tom Tugnut.

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the president of the Liberal Democrats,

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Sal Brenton, the former Respect Party

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MP, George Galloway, and the editor of

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Private Eye, Ian Hisrock.

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Thank you very much. Thank you very

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much. You can use Facebook, remember,

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Twitter to comment on what you hear. our

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hashtag BBCQT

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83981 is the number to text. Push the

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red button to see what others are

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saying. Our first question from Mark

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Turner, please. Colonel Mark Turner.

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Aren't we better off with Saddam Hussein

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gone?

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Tom Dugen.

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Yes. Unquestionably, we're better off

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without

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But I'm going to assume that you're

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actually asking a question about the

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Chilcot report, sir.

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And the reality is that the Chilcot

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report has opened up an extraordinary

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pack of information that shows us that

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the decision-making of the United

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Kingdom was not great. It's shown us

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that the grand strategy, the the ability

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to create a strategy for the United

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Kingdom that would serve not only our

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people but our interests overseas was

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woeful.

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And so we've what we've really got to

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look at in the Chilcot report is not

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only what it points to in what happened

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but also how it points to the future

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because for me the most important thing

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about Chilcot is how do we learn the

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lessons so that we don't commit such

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blunders again.

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Okay George Galloway not on a

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costbenefit analysis. No, if you look at

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the cost, a million people dead, some of

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them our own,

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billions of pounds, maybe hundreds of

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billions of pounds, burned, Iraq in

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flames, Syria in flames, Libya in

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flames, Yemen in flames, Saudi Arabia in

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flames, Bahrain in flames. If you look

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at the fanatic extremism,

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heart eating, head chopping, fanatics

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cascading everywhere in the world,

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including, and this is the anniversary

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of what happened here in our own country

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on 77. If you just begin to add up the

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cost, then the answer has to be no. Of

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course, it would be good to see

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a world without dictators,

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but if you go around the world invading

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and occupying the countries of every

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dictator, we won't have a world left.

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And for many people, there is no world

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left. A imagine a mountain of 1 million

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dead people. and look at the faces of

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the wives and the parents and the

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children of our own soldiers yesterday

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as they listened to the Chilcott report.

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I'll tell you this, Sir John Chilcott,

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if he hadn't already been kned by Tony

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Blair, would definitely deserve one

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because he recovered some national honor

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for us with his report yesterday.

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Okay,

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Charles Faulner. Yes, we are better off

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with Saddam Hussein going gone. But uh

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as George has referred to, the Chilcot

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report made it clear and it was already

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clear that we shouldn't have used force

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in Iraq because there weren't weapons of

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mass destruction which is the reason

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that we went and I am really sorry that

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we made that decision. I am sorry about

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the decision. I can't be sorry that

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Saddam has gone because the way that he

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retained power in Iraq was by murderous

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brutality in particular to the Shia

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majority and the Kurds. We have got to

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learn the lessons about when we

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intervene because it can make the

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position very much worse.

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You think with hindsight it was wrong to

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do it period?

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I think with hindsight it was wrong to

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do it. Period. And that is made clear by

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what

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by what

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can I just say one thing I I don't

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accept that all the deaths and the

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confrations in the Middle East have been

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caused by the invasion in 2003. Uh for

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example ISIS started in Syria where as

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everybody knows there was no

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intervention and then came over the

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border into Iraq. There have been a

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whole range of contributing uh uh

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sources to that and we've got to be

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careful not to blame everything that has

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happened in the Middle East on the

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invasion.

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Let's just hear from some members of our

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audience, you in the front there. Um but

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I think it's also important you say

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about learning lessons but couldn't you

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argue in very simplistic terms that ISIS

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has kind of come up through the power

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vacuum of getting rid of um Saddam

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Hussein and then kind of people again

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are just seeing war as the only option

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uh where there are so many other options

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kind of intervening and then again it's

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then the response of going into

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and then we're ending up with all these

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immigrants that people are kind of then

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critiquing when it's our fault that

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they're kind of running away from their

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own homeland

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in in Islam.

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I'm I'm just interested in the defense

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of hindsight which has been offered by

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Blair and Alistister Campbell this week

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and now here again. Why do you need um

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hindsight in 2003? I was looking back at

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privatized coverage. I mean we got it

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right. George got it right. A million

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people m marching past parliament got it

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right.

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There's there's nothing in the Chilcot

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report that everyone didn't say at the

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time. Every single one of those stories

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from the fact that the you know the

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snatch rovers didn't work properly.

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Every single bit of what was going to

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happen was relayed including um the the

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legal position which you were in the

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cabinet. Um you were not in the cabinet.

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Not at that time. No.

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You were not offering advice?

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I was not.

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None at all. What do you think of it

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then now? Uh it was the attorney general

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to decide. I agree with the advice that

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he gave.

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Well, on both occasions.

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Which advice? He gave two advice?

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The one that the better view was that it

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was lawful.

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Well, is that written down anywhere?

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That is written down. Yes. In a

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parliamentary answer he gave on the 17th

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of March.

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Well, he gave one. I know you can get a

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lawyer to give you any answer you pay

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for.

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But the attorney general first opined

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that it would not be legal. the entire

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legal team of the British Foreign Office

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to a man and woman said that the

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invasion would be illegal.

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Is legality the important point over the

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morality of it?

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Oh, for me it's both. If we are a

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country that says we stand up for values

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including the rule of law and the United

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Nations when Chilcott has just found

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that we undermine the United Nations and

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the process by which legality was

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established was and I quote him very far

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from satisfactory then frankly Charlie

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there's something wrong with the legal

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advice that was given to Tony Blair.

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We'll come back to you, sir, there in

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the

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Can I just ask if you all agree that it

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was wrong? Don't you think then today

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that Tony Blair and Bush stand trial for

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what they've done?

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Well done. I wanted to go. Yeah, we'll

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come to that. I wanted to go to the man

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in the 1 2 3 4 5 fifth row. I said that

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man there. Yes, please. Far away. I

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wonder why the whole world was quiet

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when Saddam Hussein in 1980s

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used chemical weapon against Turkish

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Kurdish people his own people and in

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Iraq Iran war why didn't they overthrow

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him then Sal

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I think that that's an extremely

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important point and the original

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question was about was it right for

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Saddam Hussein to go and the answer is

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yes but was the invasion of Iraq in 2003

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the right way to do it absolutely

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Absolutely not. And he enlisted um

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people who had very clearly said in 2003

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that it was the wrong thing to do. And

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Charles Kennedy led the Liberal

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Democrats and was almost a soul voice in

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Parliament fighting to say we must have

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a second UN resolution.

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And the son put him on the front page

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and called him a traitor

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with a snake alongside him.

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So I I the one in the front here. Yes.

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Yes. You

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me?

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Yes. I was just about to say the public

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were behind, you know, were were not in

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agreeing with it, but the press behaved

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disgracefully. The Daily Mail led it on

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and on and on and they were mostly,

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apart from the Daily Mirror, I believe,

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mainly behind it.

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What's your view of Mark Turner's

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question? Are we better off with Saddam

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G?

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I don't think we are to be honest.

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Mark Turner, what do you think? You

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asked the question. What's your view?

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Um, well, I'm no fan of Tony Blair, but

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I'm less of a fan of Saddam Hussein, who

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was clearly a tyrant. He abused his own

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people. But I think the Chilcott report

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is just one element of a a much bigger

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picture of Middle East stability.

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There's a a key timing issue. Um, the

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Labour Party failed to resource defense

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correctly for the whole time they were

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in power. There are issues of prime

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ministerial decision-making and

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political honesty. And I think when you

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wrap all those up, it was a disaster

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waiting to happen.

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Can I just Yes. Come to the just to pick

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up Ian's.

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Sorry. Could I could I finish by giving

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you my my response, which is a qualified

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one. I think the world is better off

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that Saddam Hussein has gone.

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Okay.

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I was going to say Ian makes the point

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rightly that there was a real division

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of opinion at the time and the arguments

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that were being advanced against war

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were right out there in the open. The

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best exponent of those arguments in

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parliament was Robin Cook who resigned

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and he and he set it all out as did

275
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,720
Charles Kendi. But there was a decision

276
00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:05,760
that had to be made and the prime

277
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,839
minister honestly thought that the right

278
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,480
view a view that turns out to be the

279
00:11:07,839 --> 00:11:12,320
wrong view was

280
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,240
I mean that's not in the report that he

281
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,920
honestly thought this that's not there

282
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,959
that there was no deception. There's no

283
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,720
suggestion in the report.

284
00:11:16,959 --> 00:11:20,880
He doesn't say that. He just doesn't say

285
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,360
that there was deception. That's not the

286
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,600
same thing. The absence of evidence is

287
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,920
not the evidence of absence. Let me tell

288
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,279
you

289
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,640
surely one of the most important things

290
00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:30,560
that Chilcot has brought out is the way

291
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,399
decisions were made in the cabinet with

292
00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:34,320
often private meetings between Tony

293
00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:36,240
Blair and individual members of the

294
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,640
cabinet. Very little open discussion in

295
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,160
cabinet. The cabinet members then had to

296
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,640
go back into parliament and persuade

297
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,079
others and it wasn't the sort of place I

298
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,120
mean we're called parliament. It's meant

299
00:11:44,079 --> 00:11:47,440
to be the place where people come

300
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,120
together to speak and debate and get to

301
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,240
the bottom of an issue. And parliament

302
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:50,880
claimed they weren't given the

303
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,079
intelligence.

304
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,640
Parliament absolutely

305
00:11:52,079 --> 00:11:57,200
David it turns out it was a sorry excuse

306
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:59,680
for a cabinet because Blair is able

307
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:02,320
actually to say well I didn't give them

308
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:04,880
an options uh paper because they never

309
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:07,839
asked for one. I didn't actually show

310
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:10,000
them uh the legal advice because they

311
00:12:07,839 --> 00:12:13,200
never asked for it. And Claire Short

312
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:17,200
says that she sat in the cabinet and the

313
00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:20,320
actual decision to go to war wasn't even

314
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:22,480
taken by the cabinet. But before you we

315
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,480
lose sight of this, far be it from me to

316
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,480
leap to the defense of the Daily Mail.

317
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,360
The Daily Mail was actually extremely

318
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:32,240
skeptical about the war. But the great

319
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:35,360
majority of the broadcast media, more

320
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:38,959
than the print media actually, the BBC

321
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:40,720
and others provided a drum beat to war

322
00:12:38,959 --> 00:12:44,160
and they treated those of us who were

323
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:46,480
against it as mad or bad or both. When

324
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:50,040
are they going to take responsibility

325
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,040
for this disaster?

326
00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:57,040
Well, as I hear these conversations

327
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,560
about the debate, I remember listening

328
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,360
to them on the World Service of the BBC

329
00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:04,320
from a a desert base uh just outside

330
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:08,480
Iraq uh back in 2003. And I remember

331
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:11,519
looking at uh my unit and my friends and

332
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:13,680
wondering how the next few days, months

333
00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:14,959
were going to hold for what they were

334
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,760
going to hold for the for us who were

335
00:13:14,959 --> 00:13:20,800
there. I do remember being, as you can

336
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:23,360
probably imagine, pretty terrified. Um,

337
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,560
and it really did focus my mind. But the

338
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,279
thing that has really struck me about

339
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:29,279
Chilcot, if I may, is not so much about

340
00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:30,959
Tony Blair and the government. Funny

341
00:13:29,279 --> 00:13:33,600
enough, I wasn't really surprised about

342
00:13:30,959 --> 00:13:35,120
that. I kind of expected it to show that

343
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,600
he had made some rather silly decisions

344
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,880
in some rather bad and loose ways. What

345
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,320
really surprised me and what really

346
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,680
distressed me actually is what it said

347
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:45,040
about the senior commander of the armed

348
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:47,519
forces and our senior diplomats

349
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:50,480
because the report

350
00:13:47,519 --> 00:13:52,000
is extremely harsh on them. Not just in

351
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,680
the preparation for war but in its

352
00:13:52,000 --> 00:14:00,240
execution. If you look at the chapters

353
00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:01,839
that cover the time after 20045

354
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,920
when the situation was getting worse and

355
00:14:01,839 --> 00:14:06,480
as Ian quite rightly points to the

356
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:09,760
snatch Land Rover incidents. If you look

357
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,360
at the diplomatic messages that were

358
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,760
supporting the then government's

359
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,959
position, there are many voices that

360
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,839
should have spoken out and stayed

361
00:14:14,959 --> 00:14:19,839
silent. There are many generals who

362
00:14:17,839 --> 00:14:22,240
should have realized that the tactics

363
00:14:19,839 --> 00:14:25,360
and strategy was not working and stayed

364
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,120
silent. And while it's not, or rather

365
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,720
while it wasn't, it is now, but while it

366
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,560
wasn't for me then to judge the actions

367
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,440
of politicians,

368
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:35,839
it is absolutely the duty of generals

369
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,279
and of senior diplomats to look after

370
00:14:35,839 --> 00:14:39,360
the men and women who are there

371
00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:43,000
executing the orders of her majesty's

372
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,000
government in the field.

373
00:14:45,090 --> 00:14:48,330
[Applause]

374
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,639
Let me let me take a question from Siraj

375
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,639
Lani, please. Surj,

376
00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:57,199
should Tony Blair face trial for war

377
00:14:56,639 --> 00:14:59,279
crimes?

378
00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:02,279
Should Tony Blair face trial for war

379
00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:02,279
crimes?

380
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,079
Ian Hisop. Well, I mean, there is going

381
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,240
to be a section of the public that will

382
00:15:08,079 --> 00:15:11,920
only be satisfied if Chilcott's first

383
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,399
statement had said he should be strung

384
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,959
up um outside Parliament Square with a

385
00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:18,560
huge baying mob. Um that isn't going to

386
00:15:16,959 --> 00:15:20,880
happen. Uh the International Criminal

387
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:23,279
Court said they deal with battlefield

388
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,519
atrocities. We're trying to talk about

389
00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:27,600
keeping it within legal structures. It

390
00:15:25,519 --> 00:15:29,839
would have to be a legal structure that

391
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,680
tried Tony Blair. There's talk of MPs

392
00:15:29,839 --> 00:15:34,720
arraigning him. There's, you know, talk

393
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:37,040
of uh legal challenges. Um the whole

394
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:40,000
point of the very first question is

395
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,079
should we have toppled Saddam? The idea

396
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,560
is it's possible to say yes but it

397
00:15:42,079 --> 00:15:46,959
should have been been done legally under

398
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,199
international law with sufficient

399
00:15:46,959 --> 00:15:51,920
planning. So should we just say yes

400
00:15:49,199 --> 00:15:54,480
let's string him up? I think probably uh

401
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,639
no. I think we should wait for the um

402
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,240
legal procedure to pan out of what you

403
00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:00,560
can do with him. But look at him. You

404
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,959
gave a speech. This is a haunted man. I

405
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,040
mean the toxicity of his legacy is

406
00:16:02,959 --> 00:16:06,959
extraordinary and Chilcott has now

407
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,199
banged it in. I mean he is literally

408
00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:11,600
going to wander the earth doing after

409
00:16:09,199 --> 00:16:14,160
dinners for Kazakhstan toilet companies.

410
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,560
Um you know that

411
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:19,440
that is his punishment.

412
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,959
Um so I think not and I I think Tom's

413
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,839
absolutely right. We shouldn't make it

414
00:16:20,959 --> 00:16:26,320
all about Blair. Um essentially the

415
00:16:23,839 --> 00:16:29,120
British army lost two wars. We don't

416
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:32,160
make a big deal about that, but we lost

417
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,160
um in Iraq and we lost in Afghanistan

418
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,759
and that's not great. I mean, that is

419
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,759
worth an inquiry.

420
00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:38,759
Okay.

421
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,160
Both the shadow chancellor and the

422
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,000
Labour leader said there should be legal

423
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,680
action. Uh do you think there should be

424
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,360
legal action taken against Blair?

425
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,440
No, I don't think legal action should be

426
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,240
taken against Blair. He was the prime

427
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:56,240
minister at the time. He had to make

428
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:59,680
incredibly difficult decisions about

429
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:02,480
what to do at the time when the world

430
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:05,439
was in flux because of the of 911 and

431
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:09,039
the pressures that that created. He made

432
00:17:05,439 --> 00:17:11,280
a decision honestly in what he believed

433
00:17:09,039 --> 00:17:13,919
to be the best interests of the United

434
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,760
Kingdom. He may have got it wrong, but

435
00:17:13,919 --> 00:17:18,319
it was honestly in the best interest as

436
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:21,760
he saw it of the United Kingdom. He

437
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:24,240
wasn't acting in any way deceptively or

438
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,439
dishonestly for what he thought was best

439
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,640
for the country.

440
00:17:25,439 --> 00:17:28,640
That's not what the report says.

441
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,039
The report makes it clear that he did

442
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,200
not deceive anybody. It makes it clear

443
00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:35,520
that he did not know with George Bush.

444
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,160
He had discussions with George Bush, but

445
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,400
at no stage did he keep secret from the

446
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:43,280
country what the issues were. And Ian

447
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,600
was right when he said what the issues

448
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,840
were about whether we went to war or not

449
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,760
were apparent to the country. and it was

450
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,640
a difficult decision and the country was

451
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,000
divided but he had a clear view.

452
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,919
He didn't know that he'd already

453
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:59,320
committed to a decision which didn't

454
00:17:55,919 --> 00:17:59,320
involve that.

455
00:18:02,250 --> 00:18:06,480
[Applause]

456
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,799
The John Chilcott's report finds that

457
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,520
there was no secret agreement to go to

458
00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:13,840
war. He made it clear that he would not

459
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,000
go unless there was proper authorization

460
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,000
from the United Nations which he

461
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,280
believed that he had from resolution

462
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,919
1441.

463
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,760
Please but no no but just just what

464
00:18:21,919 --> 00:18:25,280
about I will be with you whatever.

465
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,840
He says I will be with you whatever in

466
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,480
that memo in July. But then he he says

467
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,080
but it he then sets out a basis

468
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,600
I will be with you whatever but this

469
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:36,240
this and this and this. But

470
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:39,120
but actually let's not let that lie be

471
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:42,080
written into the record. They they're

472
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,480
saying that the next word is but.

473
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,000
Yeah.

474
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:49,039
But the next word isn't but. There are a

475
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,760
series of things to sell it that Blair

476
00:18:49,039 --> 00:18:51,280
then suggests.

477
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,559
I think the next word actually is but. I

478
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,200
think it is but.

479
00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:56,320
But, unfortunately, it is but. I know

480
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,320
the next word is but.

481
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:56,400
But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But.

482
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:57,840
But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But.

483
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,720
But. But. But. But. It doesn't matter.

484
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,360
But it doesn't matter.

485
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,880
There's no qualification to the word

486
00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:03,919
whatever.

487
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,919
Whatever.

488
00:19:03,919 --> 00:19:08,000
All right. The position. The position.

489
00:19:05,919 --> 00:19:09,760
All right. Come to the war crimes. Yeah.

490
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,400
Can I Can you answer that one? Do you

491
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,320
think he should face criminal charges?

492
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,480
Charlie used to be his flatmate, but you

493
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:21,320
don't have to hide his dirty laundry any

494
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:21,320
longer. You're a grown man now.

495
00:19:21,679 --> 00:19:28,240
He is already facing legal action. The

496
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:30,720
families of the bererieved uh the the

497
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,200
bereaveved families of the soldiers are

498
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:36,640
right now sitting with their lawyers

499
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:39,760
preparing legal actions for the loss of

500
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:43,679
their children or husbands through his

501
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:46,559
recklessness and negligence and misuse

502
00:19:43,679 --> 00:19:47,120
of public office malfcence in public

503
00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:48,799
office.

504
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:51,440
Do you think that that's the way to go?

505
00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:53,440
Not through the courts, not through the

506
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,440
ICC has said they won't take the case.

507
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,120
Do you think they're right thing? No, I

508
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,160
think they're wrong to say it and I

509
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:00,480
think it will be challenged.

510
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,080
So the Hag should say that it is a

511
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,799
criminal offense under international

512
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,600
law.

513
00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,600
I believe the only proper place where

514
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,480
Tony Blair should be talking about the

515
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:14,240
war is in the dock at the H. That's what

516
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:17,360
I come back. The man man up there you

517
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,520
say the third back. Yes.

518
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:21,120
Uh Tony Blair took responsibility for

519
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,960
the legal decision and that's a debate

520
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:25,840
as well, but he also has to take

521
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:28,720
responsibility for the the campaign as a

522
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:31,360
whole, which the planning both prior to

523
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:34,240
and after the conflict was absolutely

524
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:37,039
abysmal. It was more dangerous in the

525
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,640
years after Iraq than it was in 2003

526
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:41,120
when I was there.

527
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,799
And you were there as a soldier?

528
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:43,360
I was there in the army as a soldier.

529
00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:45,679
That's right.

530
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:48,159
For how long? Uh, I was in Kuwait from

531
00:20:45,679 --> 00:20:49,440
January and went into Iraq, came back in

532
00:20:48,159 --> 00:20:50,720
June of 2003.

533
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,240
What do you make of what Tom said a

534
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,600
moment ago about the leadership of the

535
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,840
army and that it was letting you down?

536
00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:00,159
I think he makes a very fair point and I

537
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:03,200
think it was the responsibility of the

538
00:21:00,159 --> 00:21:06,000
army generals to raise the issue because

539
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:09,039
fundamentally there were

540
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,960
unconscionable events that occurred,

541
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:13,039
even small ones such as the lack of body

542
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,880
armor that have exacerbated this whole

543
00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:15,760
thing. That's not that small if you're

544
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:20,440
facing

545
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:20,440
Indeed. As as Yes. indeed.

546
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,720
His exact words were, "I will be with

547
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,400
you no matter what." There were no WMDs

548
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,919
found. He lied to us. He lied to the

549
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,880
government. And as a direct result of

550
00:21:31,919 --> 00:21:36,240
his lives, 149 soldiers blood are now on

551
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,840
his hands. He should pay the price and

552
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,799
he should be done for war crimes. and

553
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,960
off.

554
00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:44,159
I think the problem is if the ICC have

555
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,159
already said that they're not going to

556
00:21:44,159 --> 00:21:48,400
do that. But I do believe that

557
00:21:46,159 --> 00:21:50,559
everything that you said just now is

558
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,400
correct. Um Tony Blair was absolutely

559
00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:54,960
determined to make the case for war

560
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,039
regardless of the legality, the evidence

561
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,440
and the strategy including the post

562
00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:01,360
invasion planning which was not just

563
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,600
woeful but catastrophic for the region

564
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,280
as a whole. And absolutely there are

565
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,760
problems there. He's not the only

566
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,360
person. Um I suspect that the families

567
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,799
bringing cases is probably the only

568
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:13,520
formal way that there will be any

569
00:22:10,799 --> 00:22:15,760
action. But I think the moral side Tony

570
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,360
Blair absolutely understands that the

571
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,840
majority of people in this country were

572
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:21,840
appalled by the actions both of him and

573
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,880
of some of his colleagues. And Chilcot

574
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:27,360
has made plain those actions, the

575
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,679
failure of government and the failure of

576
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:31,840
planning. Um and yet again we fought a

577
00:22:29,679 --> 00:22:33,280
war using the last weapons from the

578
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,679
previous war. The Northern Ireland

579
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,679
equipment was wrong. It took us too long

580
00:22:35,679 --> 00:22:39,440
in Afghanistan to learn that lesson as

581
00:22:37,679 --> 00:22:41,200
well. We absolutely have to make sure

582
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,159
that our armed forces have learned those

583
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,840
lessons for the future.

584
00:22:42,159 --> 00:22:48,159
Okay. You share the second I

585
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:51,039
was in I was in Northern Ireland for a

586
00:22:48,159 --> 00:22:54,080
long time and I lived there. I was in a

587
00:22:51,039 --> 00:22:56,480
war in in Northern Ireland as well. But

588
00:22:54,080 --> 00:23:01,120
while I was there, I met a lot of U

589
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:02,880
refugees from Iraq. And going back to

590
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:06,080
the first question, do you think it's

591
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,760
right to have got rid of Saddam Hussein?

592
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,720
No, I don't think it's right to have got

593
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:13,600
rid of him because I met these refugees

594
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:16,400
and they were they were refugees from

595
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,880
there from as I said he he was a

596
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:21,120
dictator but he was in control of the

597
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:24,080
country. There was Shiites and and

598
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:25,760
Sunnis fighting against each other and

599
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,320
the families who were in Northern

600
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,400
Ireland, they were better off and they

601
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:35,360
they were But I tell you something, when

602
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:38,080
when Britain invaded Kuwait, um uh Iraq,

603
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:40,240
the the the the refugees, the refugee

604
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,720
families, the the students who were

605
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,640
starting here, doctors, they were they

606
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,520
were locked up. They were in worse they

607
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,679
were in a worse state for just for being

608
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,360
Iraqis.

609
00:23:49,679 --> 00:23:54,159
in in in the country.

610
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:56,080
Okay, Tom Juggernaut, just a last point

611
00:23:54,159 --> 00:23:58,400
on war trial.

612
00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,080
Well, look, I'm I'm not a lawyer. Um,

613
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,240
but I think you'd be hardressed to say

614
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,480
that the 2.6 million words that make up

615
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,200
the Chilcot report do not condemn him

616
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,440
very very severely already.

617
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,440
And I find myself

618
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:15,360
thinking very hard actually these days

619
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:18,159
again about the 179 servicemen who who

620
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:20,640
were killed because of course for those

621
00:24:18,159 --> 00:24:22,320
of us who served as you did sir it's not

622
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,880
a list of numbers it's a list of names

623
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,799
some of whom are our friends

624
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,960
and of course for each one who was

625
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:30,080
injured there were many more sorry who

626
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,640
for each one who was killed there were

627
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,919
many more who were injured and many of

628
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,600
my friends now are living with the

629
00:24:33,919 --> 00:24:40,000
injuries of that war. Some of them are

630
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,559
physical, some of them are mental.

631
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,240
And I find it very difficult, very

632
00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:48,000
difficult

633
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:50,720
to look dispassionately at it.

634
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,360
But I do appreciate that my job now is

635
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,600
not as a judge and jury. I'll leave that

636
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:58,240
to the lawyers, but it's to make sure

637
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,799
that we never find ourselves in a

638
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:03,120
situation like that again. which is why

639
00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:05,200
I'm very glad that a few changes have

640
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:07,440
happened already and I will be asking

641
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,600
for more that we've got a national

642
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,520
security council at which senior

643
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,520
diplomats, senior military officers and

644
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,840
the attorney general are all expected to

645
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,039
speak up. They're all expected to

646
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,240
challenge.

647
00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:19,600
I think that's a really important

648
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,200
change.

649
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,120
But he will be the jury if there's an

650
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,679
impeachment in the house. And I think

651
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:27,679
that there will be in the house.

652
00:25:25,679 --> 00:25:30,000
Yes. I think that Alex Amond and others

653
00:25:27,679 --> 00:25:32,080
are going to bring forward a motion to

654
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:35,039
impeach Tony Blair at the bar of the

655
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:37,520
house huckled in under manners by Black

656
00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:39,840
Rod and the sergeant to arms. Wouldn't

657
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,279
that be a fine day indeed?

658
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,039
I take a couple more points and then we

659
00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:44,880
move on to another topic. You sir waving

660
00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:46,000
your hand at me with the gray hair there

661
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,480
and the spectacle thing.

662
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,360
Right. Um yeah. Isn't it outrageous that

663
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:54,559
we see Tony Blair with armed police

664
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:57,360
officers and a protection squad and a

665
00:25:54,559 --> 00:25:59,840
bulletproof and a and a bomb-proof car

666
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,480
when the the troops had none of that

667
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,840
equipment?

668
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,840
Okay. And and you, sir, the last point.

669
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,039
Yes. You both got your hands up both

670
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,960
briefly if you would and then we'll go

671
00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:11,200
on. Uh yeah, I was in the army at that

672
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,720
time when um I was in the household

673
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:16,799
cavalary based in Nightsbridge and a lot

674
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,159
of the guys that were going out there

675
00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:19,520
who were based in Windsor didn't want to

676
00:26:18,159 --> 00:26:21,440
go out. Didn't believe in the war, but

677
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,760
they did it because it was their job and

678
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,919
because they had to do it. So you've got

679
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:29,039
this fall down from all of that. We went

680
00:26:25,919 --> 00:26:31,679
to war to hold Saddam Hussein

681
00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:32,960
accountable for his actions. So who's

682
00:26:31,679 --> 00:26:38,760
going to be accountable for these

683
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,760
actions? Tony Blair? Someone else,

684
00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:46,240
what do you what do you make of of of

685
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,559
what Chil cut said?

686
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,480
Um, I haven't read the report to be

687
00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:52,159
honest. I've only seen

688
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:56,480
the information that's been fed to me by

689
00:26:52,159 --> 00:26:58,960
the media, but um it seemed honest and

690
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,120
quite straightforward to what the the

691
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,720
how it began in the first place. thing.

692
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:04,400
And the man on your left there,

693
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,480
I find it unbelievable that one of your

694
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,120
panel members is sat here still

695
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,960
defending Tony Blair after all the

696
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:12,559
information been given by this audience

697
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,600
and the rest of the panel. I think it's

698
00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:16,600
disgusting that you defend him.

699
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:20,520
You're welcome.

700
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,440
I do defend him for the reasons that

701
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,840
I've given already. I've made it clear I

702
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,760
thought the decision was wrong and I

703
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,400
still speak up for him because he

704
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,320
achieved a lot but this issue is a

705
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,159
really really difficult issue and I

706
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,360
accept the findings

707
00:27:36,159 --> 00:27:40,240
of Tilkot.

708
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:41,600
Okay, I just say I mean I accept all the

709
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,360
points everyone's making but I think

710
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,480
it's it's just worth remembering that

711
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:51,400
250 people died last weekend in one bomb

712
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,400
blast in Baghdad. One.

713
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,320
Yes, we've got to learn lessons about

714
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,799
ourselves, but I mean there's there's

715
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,840
pretty huge repercussions in Iraq. And

716
00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:01,279
there's some very good foreign

717
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,720
correspondents reports at the moment

718
00:28:01,279 --> 00:28:04,960
saying, "Do you know they're not that

719
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:09,440
bothered by our soularching? They're

720
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:11,679
just still angry." Okay,

721
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,440
we go on to another We'll go on to a

722
00:28:11,679 --> 00:28:15,200
completely a completely different topic.

723
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,279
One on which we had as many questions as

724
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:20,799
we did on that first one this week.

725
00:28:17,279 --> 00:28:22,640
Khloe Garrett Dyke. Khloe Garrett Dyke.

726
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:25,120
Um, in light of the misleading leave

727
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,799
campaign and a complete lack of a plan,

728
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:28,559
is the referendum result really a

729
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:29,600
legitimate mandate for us to leave the

730
00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:31,200
EU?

731
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:35,360
In light of the misleading leave

732
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:37,200
campaign and a lack of a plan, Salton,

733
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:39,279
lack of a plan, have we not just been

734
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,039
talking about lack of a plan in the

735
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:42,559
previous question? I mean, I think there

736
00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:44,720
is there is a real issue. There was no

737
00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:47,120
threshold on this referendum which meant

738
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,919
that although it was 52% of those who

739
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,320
voted, it was only 37% of people

740
00:28:49,919 --> 00:28:54,240
entitled to vote. But as Liberal

741
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,200
Democrats, we say we have to accept the

742
00:28:54,240 --> 00:29:00,640
result of the referendum. But we remain

743
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:02,640
a pro- Europe party. We absolutely see

744
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,039
the importance of Britain having a key

745
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,039
role in Europe and we will go into the

746
00:29:05,039 --> 00:29:10,480
next general election saying that we

747
00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:13,200
should still be there. In the meantime,

748
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,520
we will be absolutely a strong voice in

749
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,600
parliament and in the country to try and

750
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,720
get the best deal we can. It's it's

751
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,200
interesting that we're here at a

752
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:24,399
university. The university sector has

753
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:26,799
already really felt the chill in two

754
00:29:24,399 --> 00:29:28,799
weeks about a third of research monies

755
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:30,960
are likely to go. There's a number of

756
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:33,039
projects been put on hold and there's

757
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,799
certainly worries about PhD students who

758
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:36,720
have been jointly funded by European

759
00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:40,080
projects. So we are living with the real

760
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:44,440
consequences of no plan.

761
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,440
The word the words of the question

762
00:29:46,399 --> 00:29:49,360
though you said you would stand against

763
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,120
this in the general election. The

764
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,080
question was whether it was a legitimate

765
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,120
mandate to leave the EU that referendum.

766
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,640
Are you saying it wasn't?

767
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,720
I think I'm saying it's extremely

768
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,440
borderline but it fell within the rules.

769
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,960
And unfortunately democracy means you've

770
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,760
got to go by the rules that are played

771
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,799
at the time. But as clearly those many

772
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:11,760
of us including 70% in the Brighton area

773
00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:13,679
who voted remain feel extremely

774
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,240
concerned that people voted for

775
00:30:13,679 --> 00:30:17,919
something not understanding what it was.

776
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,600
And now they're beginning to see the

777
00:30:17,919 --> 00:30:25,279
reality of the lack of plan. The lack of

778
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:28,320
plan. Where's the 350 million a week for

779
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:29,840
the NHS suddenly gone? Jobs already

780
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,360
beginning to disappear from the city.

781
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:36,799
The Footsie 250 down over 10%. the pound

782
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,480
down uh to below 130 and staying there

783
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:39,279
at time of broadcast. It's probably

784
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,960
lower now.

785
00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:42,320
Who who All right. Who was complain? You

786
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,039
were complaining in the front row there.

787
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,360
Yes. Your you go. You

788
00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:49,919
Yes.

789
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,159
70% of the population of Brighton voted

790
00:30:49,919 --> 00:30:55,360
to stay in, but the majority of the

791
00:30:52,159 --> 00:30:57,120
people in the Southeast voted come out.

792
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,640
So I mean it's you're just picking on

793
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,559
Brighton because

794
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,159
No, I'm just saying because we are in

795
00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:04,480
Brighton tonight and there are areas

796
00:31:02,159 --> 00:31:06,159
like this that have for example.

797
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,360
But so so what?

798
00:31:06,159 --> 00:31:08,880
So so what?

799
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,120
Well, it was just

800
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,720
the Southeast voted to come out and

801
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,760
London did as well and the Northeast

802
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,320
obviously voted out.

803
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,480
Well, everybody apart from London, uh

804
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,919
Northern Ireland and Scotland. The rest

805
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,760
of the country voted to come out.

806
00:31:19,919 --> 00:31:22,559
But it was No, no, no. the rest of the

807
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,799
country who voted.

808
00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,399
5248. You can't just say every

809
00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:27,760
not exactly a massive majority.

810
00:31:26,399 --> 00:31:30,000
All right. The question is whether it

811
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,720
was a misleading leave campaign with no

812
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,240
plan. If the vote was Brexit, yes,

813
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,760
you're waving at me. I will come to you.

814
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,159
But the the man there with spectacles

815
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,480
had his hand up first. You, sir.

816
00:31:38,159 --> 00:31:42,480
We've had the referendum. Everyone's had

817
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,600
the opportunity to put their voice

818
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:50,080
forward. Um it it's about time we just

819
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:51,679
crack on with getting uh the deal.

820
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,200
Okay.

821
00:31:51,679 --> 00:31:54,799
And you and you at the back in the

822
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,760
second row in the back, the young man

823
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:58,000
there. Yes.

824
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,240
The question was whether the referendum

825
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,840
result was legitimate and the answer is

826
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:06,640
yes. The job of government

827
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,960
the job of government is to plan for

828
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,919
every eventuality and most of them

829
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,399
pinned their m their mask to remain. Now

830
00:32:11,919 --> 00:32:17,120
the the only person who had a plan was

831
00:32:14,399 --> 00:32:20,080
Mark Carney. Despite saying it was a

832
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,799
massive risk to leave, he had a plan.

833
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,760
Now, why is he the only person who's had

834
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:28,510
a plan? What was cabinet doing? That's

835
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:31,869
the question I

836
00:32:28,510 --> 00:32:31,869
[Applause]

837
00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:37,200
Yes, I think it is a legitimate basis

838
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,279
and indeed it is a mandate from the

839
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,919
people to leave the European Union which

840
00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:43,919
the politicians I think have got to

841
00:32:41,919 --> 00:32:45,600
accept. I think lots and lots of

842
00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:46,880
misleading things were said in the

843
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,600
course of the campaign, but when a

844
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,760
misleading thing was said like this£350

845
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,120
million pound figure, it was pointed out

846
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,960
and it was for the public to make a

847
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:58,159
judgment about it. And they did make a

848
00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:01,279
judgment about it.

849
00:32:58,159 --> 00:33:04,000
It's it's for recommending that it's for

850
00:33:01,279 --> 00:33:05,200
the public to decide how they react to

851
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,880
what people say about it. And they've

852
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,240
made their decision. It's now for the

853
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,360
politicians to do something about it.

854
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:13,600
The absence of a plan means if in the

855
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:16,559
course of negotiations we failed to get

856
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,880
a result which is free access to the

857
00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:20,799
single market on the same terms as now

858
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,960
can I and I accept that I accept we

859
00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:26,000
voted out and I've accepted we've now

860
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:28,399
got to try and negotiate our way to a

861
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,679
situation where we're out. If we get

862
00:33:28,399 --> 00:33:31,279
close to the situation where we've got

863
00:33:29,679 --> 00:33:34,399
the single market control over

864
00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:36,240
immigration no contributions to the EU

865
00:33:34,399 --> 00:33:38,159
then that's fine. There'll be no need

866
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,240
for anybody to be asked again whether

867
00:33:38,159 --> 00:33:40,640
that's okay. But if it's far away from

868
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,440
that,

869
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,880
you would accept.

870
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,799
Hold on. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

871
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,399
If it's far away from that, then the

872
00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:47,039
public will need to express a view in

873
00:33:46,399 --> 00:33:48,159
it. That's what I think.

874
00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:50,159
All right. The woman in red in the

875
00:33:48,159 --> 00:33:52,159
second row from the back.

876
00:33:50,159 --> 00:33:53,919
Um, people keep saying it's a misleading

877
00:33:52,159 --> 00:33:56,159
campaign both about the referendum and

878
00:33:53,919 --> 00:33:57,279
about Chilcop and the rock campaign. And

879
00:33:56,159 --> 00:33:59,120
then you keep saying it's for the public

880
00:33:57,279 --> 00:34:01,279
to decide, but I sort of think is in it

881
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,799
also for politicians to be honest. And

882
00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:04,799
why do we not have some kind of system

883
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:06,799
of accountability? Not that takes seven

884
00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:08,399
years and 10 million pounds. But you

885
00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:11,119
know when politicians are found to have

886
00:34:08,399 --> 00:34:13,280
lied or to have been incompetent on the

887
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:14,560
other hand they are unfit to lead us and

888
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:18,280
why do we not have some kind of system

889
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,280
that holds them to account?

890
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,320
Elections elections aren't enough for

891
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:30,000
you.

892
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,240
I mean we have a system of proportional

893
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,720
record.

894
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:34,399
Would you like to see prosecuted? No,

895
00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:36,399
not prosecuted, but you know,

896
00:34:34,399 --> 00:34:38,320
350 million which was on the side of his

897
00:34:36,399 --> 00:34:40,159
bus, which he knew wasn't true. He was

898
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,159
told it wasn't true. He kept pointing to

899
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:43,919
it throughout. Should he be arrested?

900
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:46,240
Not arrested, but maybe barred from

901
00:34:43,919 --> 00:34:48,079
holding public office, maybe. You know,

902
00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:49,280
you say we have an electoral system. We

903
00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:51,280
have an electoral system based on

904
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,200
proportional rep based on, you know,

905
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,440
first pass the post. You have a choice

906
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,680
of two candidates. It's often a choice

907
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,200
of the least bad option. And if someone

908
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,320
is found to have lied, but you disagree

909
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,079
with the politics of the other

910
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,320
candidate, what choice do you have?

911
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:05,200
All right. The woman there in white with

912
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,760
spectacles there.

913
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,720
What makes you think that Britain would

914
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:14,160
be able to negotiate both access to the

915
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:15,119
single market and um um controlled

916
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,400
immigration?

917
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:20,800
Well, let me tell you, is that is that

918
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:24,240
is that the message you picked up from

919
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:28,240
the Brexit case? I don't I don't think

920
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:30,400
there is point of Brexit if we uh cannot

921
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:31,920
control immigration and if we cannot

922
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,640
have access to the single market

923
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,480
otherwise uh what is the point of Brexit

924
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,160
if we cannot have both.

925
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,920
Okay, George Galloway.

926
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,000
Well, if you took all the liars and the

927
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,960
incompetence out of parliament, it would

928
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,760
be pretty empty. Uh let me tell you that

929
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:51,200
first of all

930
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,880
the both campaigns both campaigns were

931
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,359
misleading. You were there repeatedly,

932
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,560
weren't you?

933
00:35:53,359 --> 00:35:54,960
Yeah, but

934
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,640
you

935
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,800
I said it would be pretty empty, not

936
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,880
entirely empty.

937
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,680
The the

938
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:08,560
campaigns on both sides were misleading.

939
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:11,520
The remain camp painted a picture of us

940
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:14,960
who wanted out of the European Union as

941
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:17,920
some kind of racist mob because we don't

942
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:21,280
accept that in the kind of society we

943
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:24,160
have that there can be uncontrolled free

944
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:26,800
movement of labor which drives the wages

945
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,960
down of the workers already here.

946
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,359
whatever country they come from,

947
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,760
whatever color they are, whatever creed

948
00:36:31,359 --> 00:36:36,079
they are, there's nothing racist about

949
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,720
wanting to control your borders and

950
00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:41,440
about wanting to have a controlled and

951
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:44,640
managed immigration system, which is

952
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:47,599
impossible under the European Union. I'm

953
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:50,160
a follower until now, though he's dead,

954
00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:53,280
of the late and great Tony Ben. There

955
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:56,160
was nothing racist or reactionary about

956
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:58,160
his opposition to the European Union. So

957
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,800
there were lies on both sides. Boris

958
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:03,280
Johnson, I wish they would uh put him in

959
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,400
jail. So So, so, so does some.

960
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,079
So for what exactly?

961
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,720
Just for fun. No, for

962
00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:10,480
just for fun.

963
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:12,800
Maybe in the stock jail here.

964
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,119
Maybe in the stocks where we can throw

965
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,640
buns at him, though he'd probably gobble

966
00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:22,320
them down. But the the the reality is

967
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:25,040
the public made a decision. 17 million

968
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,599
people, more than 17 million people,

969
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:30,640
more people voted to leave the EU than

970
00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:31,520
have ever voted for anything in the

971
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,800
entire history.

972
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,119
The question is, was it was it a

973
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,200
mistake?

974
00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:39,760
But but Khloe's question was was the

975
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,079
campaign of the leave side misleading

976
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,000
both and and therefore they got an

977
00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:45,280
unfair advantage over the people who

978
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,320
wanted to remain whatever they

979
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,800
if every government that was elected was

980
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:53,760
unelected because they'd been misleading

981
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,680
the public would never say should happen

982
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,920
but we would never have had a government

983
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,960
the Tories get into power every time

984
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,839
misleading the people with respect to

985
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:06,160
you uh taking they're constantly

986
00:38:03,839 --> 00:38:08,880
misleading polit politicians mislead.

987
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:11,760
It's for the public and the media to

988
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,800
hold the politicians to account and I

989
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,000
believe that they did. So,

990
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,280
okay, let's try and do a bit more of

991
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,720
that then. The man with the white beard

992
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,400
there in the fifth row from the back,

993
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:20,560
sixth row, you say? Yes.

994
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,560
This has been in my view the most

995
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:26,810
humiliating and disgusting period in

996
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:30,840
British politics. the whole rea

997
00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:30,840
[Applause]

998
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,400
in one way.

999
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,200
We have lost the friendship and support

1000
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,599
of our closest allies in both words, in

1001
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,200
both senses of the word. We have

1002
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:43,200
endangered the special relationship

1003
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,119
which we have with the United States

1004
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,440
which has been our safeguard since the

1005
00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:50,400
middle of the second world war.

1006
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,800
We have disenfranchised our youth in

1007
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,160
this country from their future. Why have

1008
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,880
we disenfranchised them?

1009
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,359
Because they you almost overwhelmingly

1010
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,040
would like to stay in the status quo. So

1011
00:38:59,359 --> 00:39:01,599
why didn't they vote? Can I just Why

1012
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,720
didn't they vote?

1013
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:04,320
Can I just make the main point?

1014
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:06,160
No, don't make answer that one first.

1015
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,320
Why didn't they vote? Why did they vote

1016
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,599
in such small numbers with people?

1017
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,000
I think regressively because

1018
00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:13,760
regressively because politicians have

1019
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,320
not got their interest or their

1020
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,480
confidence.

1021
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,560
I see. Okay. I just want to clarify. All

1022
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:22,560
right. One more point and then I want to

1023
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:25,920
all of this all of this was unnecessary.

1024
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:28,240
Because the EU is imploding and if we

1025
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,160
had waited a while, we would have led

1026
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:32,240
out the factions which are most

1027
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,720
sympathetic to our causes and our needs

1028
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:37,920
and their needs and causes instead of

1029
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:39,440
being blamed for the collapse forever.

1030
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,440
Okay, Ian.

1031
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,440
Um,

1032
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,480
applause for gentlemen. Um, again, I can

1033
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:47,839
see the reaction in a couple of the rows

1034
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,880
there. You know, sort of winging

1035
00:39:47,839 --> 00:39:53,520
metropolitan loss can't bear it. um

1036
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:55,119
after um an election or a referendum,

1037
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,280
even if you lose the vote, you are

1038
00:39:55,119 --> 00:40:00,680
entitled to go on making the argument.

1039
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,680
When a government

1040
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,800
when a government in this country wins

1041
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,640
an election, the opposition does not

1042
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:10,800
just say, "Oh, that's absolutely right.

1043
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,800
I've got nothing to say for 5 years."

1044
00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:16,240
So

1045
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,160
those of us who you know were trying

1046
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:19,760
fairly hard in the last weeks to follow

1047
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:23,760
what on earth is happening in this

1048
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:25,599
country, the leave vote has left us with

1049
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,680
a group of leaders who having lit the

1050
00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:31,560
fire have all run away saying someone

1051
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,560
else can clear up the mess.

1052
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:37,280
The prime minister who put us in the

1053
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:39,520
mess has resigned. Everybody is gone.

1054
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,079
All the people that put their cross down

1055
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,599
for leave saying this is what we want.

1056
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:45,440
They seem to be getting a group of

1057
00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:48,400
people who say we can't stop

1058
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,400
immigration. We can't give 350 million.

1059
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:53,640
Oh, and um by the way there might be

1060
00:40:50,400 --> 00:41:01,680
quite a lot of austerity. Sorry. Bye.

1061
00:40:53,640 --> 00:41:03,280
[Applause]

1062
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,680
Um yeah, just bring it back to the

1063
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,960
original question. Um, so because

1064
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,040
everybody's sort of jumping on the

1065
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,880
bandwagon saying both campaigns are

1066
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,119
being misleading, should there be a

1067
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,200
governing body that regulate political

1068
00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:16,880
marketing as we have elsewhere?

1069
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,520
I want to control the way messages are

1070
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,560
put across.

1071
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,079
Yes, indeed.

1072
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,079
Okay. Well, well, hold that point. And

1073
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:24,000
the woman there uh in the third row,

1074
00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:27,119
yes, you

1075
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,760
um I wanted to make a point about um

1076
00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:31,119
youth not voting. I feel like both sides

1077
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,800
were just shouting at each other and

1078
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:34,800
weren't making any good points and so we

1079
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:38,480
didn't feel like we were in a position

1080
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:40,000
to vote in a way that is informed. I

1081
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,640
personally did vote despite the fact I

1082
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,079
wasn't in the country. I got a um proxy

1083
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,079
vote. I got my mother to vote for me.

1084
00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:48,560
But I met adults who were much older

1085
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:49,680
than me and they didn't get a proxy vote

1086
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,040
at all. They weren't even aware they

1087
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,960
could do that. And I just feel like

1088
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,800
people are blaming us a lot for not

1089
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,880
representing what we believe in. But

1090
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,400
it's not that we don't not representing

1091
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,599
what we believe in. We're just not

1092
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:05,359
informed because the campaigns haven't

1093
00:42:03,599 --> 00:42:08,319
presented themselves well enough. And

1094
00:42:05,359 --> 00:42:09,440
also they haven't tried to um reach out

1095
00:42:08,319 --> 00:42:09,839
to us at all.

1096
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,760
Okay.

1097
00:42:09,839 --> 00:42:13,040
Like what do you say? What do you say to

1098
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,480
that on either side of the argument?

1099
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,480
Well, I I was just going to answer the

1100
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,800
the question if I may. I know it's a

1101
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,160
strange habit, but I do think

1102
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,000
well you could no

1103
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,920
politics long and you haven't been on

1104
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,400
question time before the convention is

1105
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,400
you the convention is you be quiet for a

1106
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,079
moment and the question the questioner

1107
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,440
there you can answer her question and

1108
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:33,040
then the main question okay

1109
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,920
because we keep trying to answer the

1110
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,680
questions people put

1111
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,280
well m I think you make some very

1112
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,960
legitimate points but I would also argue

1113
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,640
very strongly that democracy is

1114
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,040
something we do together it's not

1115
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,880
something that's done to us so I

1116
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,400
wouldn't attack the British people's

1117
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,079
intelligence or understanding of the

1118
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,440
question. They understood. We all

1119
00:42:48,079 --> 00:42:51,599
understood exactly what the question

1120
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,839
was. We're an intelligent and well

1121
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:55,760
educated population.

1122
00:42:53,839 --> 00:42:58,400
And these debates have been happening

1123
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,839
for years on the merits of being in or

1124
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,560
out of the European Union. In the last

1125
00:42:59,839 --> 00:43:06,720
few months, true, the hyperbole has been

1126
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:08,400
really quite spectacular. But there is a

1127
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:10,400
fundamental understanding of the

1128
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,960
question in this country that I think

1129
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:15,200
means that the answer is legitimate. And

1130
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,440
while some people didn't choose to vote,

1131
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,079
which I wish they had, but I respect

1132
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,319
their choice not to, I think it's also

1133
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:24,079
incumbent on all of us to educate

1134
00:43:22,319 --> 00:43:27,079
ourselves, too. We're not sheep to be

1135
00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:27,079
fed.

1136
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,599
Were you

1137
00:43:32,079 --> 00:43:34,960
were you a sheep?

1138
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:36,560
Not at all. No, I you weren't a sheep.

1139
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,920
I spent other people sheep.

1140
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,359
No, no, no. I said we are not.

1141
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,200
Okay. How did you vote?

1142
00:43:39,359 --> 00:43:43,040
I voted to remain. And I voted to remain

1143
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,640
for a whole series of different reasons

1144
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,319
that many people in this room will

1145
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,920
understand. But many of my friends voted

1146
00:43:46,319 --> 00:43:49,440
to leave for a whole series of reasons.

1147
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,800
Well, you bring us you bring us very

1148
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,440
neatly to another question because the

1149
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,280
result of your voting uh to remain but

1150
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,880
not being in a majority is that the

1151
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,280
prime minister stood down. We've got a

1152
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,839
question from Mark Sherry, please. Mark

1153
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,280
Sherry,

1154
00:43:59,839 --> 00:44:03,200
thank you. Should there be a general

1155
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,960
election once the Conservative Party

1156
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,560
membership elect our new leader?

1157
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,079
Should there be a general election now

1158
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,839
that we have the Tory party? What do you

1159
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:12,880
think, Ian? Um yeah, I think there

1160
00:44:09,839 --> 00:44:15,040
should um in terms of basic democracy,

1161
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,119
which you're, you know, very keen um on

1162
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,960
the referendum, I mean, the choice of

1163
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:22,319
prime minister as a result of this

1164
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,920
string of sort of disasters um has been

1165
00:44:22,319 --> 00:44:26,800
that the next prime minister will be

1166
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:28,319
decided by what 150,000 members of the

1167
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,319
Conservative

1168
00:44:28,319 --> 00:44:32,319
um party membership. Now, they're

1169
00:44:30,319 --> 00:44:34,400
they're in a sense the equivalent of the

1170
00:44:32,319 --> 00:44:35,280
Labor Party membership. They're they

1171
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,319
don't represent

1172
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,040
smaller,

1173
00:44:36,319 --> 00:44:41,520
a little bit smaller. Um but there again

1174
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,599
there is a split between what the party

1175
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,440
um in parliament thinks and what the

1176
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:48,000
membership thinks. And we have two

1177
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,920
candidates. Um and if you voted leave,

1178
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,560
you've got if say you voted leave

1179
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,240
because you're worried about

1180
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,400
immigration, you've got a choice of the

1181
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:56,800
home secretary who was in charge of

1182
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,960
cutting immigration from 300,000 to tens

1183
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,480
of thousands and didn't do it. If you

1184
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,319
voted leave because you're angry about

1185
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,400
global capitalism, you've got a woman

1186
00:45:02,319 --> 00:45:06,880
who was funded by a hedge fund. She

1187
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,560
worked in the banking industry. That'll

1188
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:11,040
that'll really help all those left

1189
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,680
behind around the country to help hedge

1190
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:17,400
fund managers based in Gernzi.

1191
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,400
What choice is that?

1192
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:22,640
Charuction

1193
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,520
or not? I

1194
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,720
I I think not necessarily immediately.

1195
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,920
The reason why not necessarily

1196
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:29,520
immediately, I think once

1197
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,200
Labour might lose.

1198
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,359
No, I'm I'm sure Labour would win

1199
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,760
handsomely. Uh the reason I think you

1200
00:45:33,359 --> 00:45:35,280
need to

1201
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,260
That's why you resigned from the shadow

1202
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:40,869
cabinet.

1203
00:45:36,260 --> 00:45:40,869
[Applause]

1204
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,920
I think there are ways that one might

1205
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:47,680
win more handsomely. As far as as far as

1206
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,920
the general election is concerned, I

1207
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,800
think before we have a general election,

1208
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:55,839
we need to know what it is that the new

1209
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:58,079
prime minister's stance is going to be

1210
00:45:55,839 --> 00:46:01,440
with Europe. So, we have something to

1211
00:45:58,079 --> 00:46:04,800
vote on. It's not just is it Theresa May

1212
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:07,440
or Andrea Ledum, it's also what is the

1213
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,720
pitch this person is going to take when

1214
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,240
it comes to negotiating with the

1215
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:13,440
European Union. Because going back to

1216
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:14,960
the previous question, we do need now to

1217
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,359
set about working out how we are going

1218
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:20,800
to leave the European Union and what the

1219
00:46:17,359 --> 00:46:23,119
terms are if a new prime minister is

1220
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,839
going to discharge the most pressing

1221
00:46:23,119 --> 00:46:28,800
responsibility on a prime minister now.

1222
00:46:25,839 --> 00:46:31,680
that is to work out what our strategy is

1223
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:33,520
to leave the European Union and ask the

1224
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,119
people whether they agree with it but

1225
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,119
only once that strategy is ready.

1226
00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:38,480
So is you don't start negotiating but

1227
00:46:37,119 --> 00:46:39,680
you prepare a strategy and then go to

1228
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,480
the country. If you prepare a strategy,

1229
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,760
I think preparing

1230
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,960
everybody knows your negotiating

1231
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,319
position and then you go to

1232
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,680
Yeah, you've got to have a negotiating

1233
00:46:44,319 --> 00:46:48,319
position and you've also

1234
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,720
without without article 50

1235
00:46:48,319 --> 00:46:53,680
without article 50 in my view and also

1236
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:56,319
first of all asking the European Union

1237
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,920
uh capitals what they would be what

1238
00:46:56,319 --> 00:46:59,839
could be deliverable.

1239
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,280
Okay. The the the woman there in the

1240
00:46:59,839 --> 00:47:04,720
third row from the back and then I come

1241
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:06,800
to somebody else. Yeah. Oh, and with

1242
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:08,880
talks of an early general election, I

1243
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:12,000
just urge you to let 16 and 17 year olds

1244
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:13,680
vote. Um, my peers and I showed that we

1245
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,119
had a really healthy appetite for

1246
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,280
political engagement in the EU

1247
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:19,359
referendum. Yet, you chose to quite

1248
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,599
blatantly ignore our view and we

1249
00:47:19,359 --> 00:47:23,599
therefore saw a result that is not

1250
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:25,200
representative of my age group. And I

1251
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:26,880
think it's now time the government lets

1252
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,280
us vote and that's an opinion on our

1253
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,319
future.

1254
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,880
Thanks for the point. The men in the

1255
00:47:28,319 --> 00:47:32,720
third row here. I believe most people

1256
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,520
alive in this world are outside of the

1257
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:37,830
EU and there's a wider world um outside

1258
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:41,839
of the EU and Britain.

1259
00:47:37,830 --> 00:47:43,119
[Music]

1260
00:47:41,839 --> 00:47:47,119
I think there's so many more

1261
00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:50,480
opportunities to target um markets in

1262
00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:52,480
China, in America, North America. And I

1263
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,920
don't see why the the fairongering from

1264
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,680
the remain side should continue. They

1265
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,280
should just stop and let's move on.

1266
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,720
Tom, let's come back to the the question

1267
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,160
about a general election. Should there

1268
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:02,480
be one once the Conservative Party

1269
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,040
membership has elected a new leader on

1270
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,000
September?

1271
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,200
Following your example, I'm just going

1272
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:05,599
to answer that gentleman say I agree

1273
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:06,319
with it.

1274
00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:08,720
Suits you now.

1275
00:48:06,319 --> 00:48:10,400
Well, I agree with him. Look,

1276
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:11,440
picking up the whole thing very well.

1277
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,400
Getting very quickly,

1278
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,920
I'm learning from

1279
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,440
ignore the chairman. Just carry on.

1280
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,119
The the reality is there is a wider

1281
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,160
world out there. It isn't the decision I

1282
00:48:17,119 --> 00:48:20,160
would have made for a whole series of

1283
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,040
reasons, but this is not the end of the

1284
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,839
world by any means.

1285
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,000
And shouldn't there be a general

1286
00:48:21,839 --> 00:48:24,880
election party has a new leader?

1287
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,079
You're going to let me finish on.

1288
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,079
No, no, because I think you've said that

1289
00:48:26,079 --> 00:48:29,200
before. But we've

1290
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:31,599
you said it all before.

1291
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,800
We've if you if you let me start then

1292
00:48:31,599 --> 00:48:33,599
that would at least get us somewhere

1293
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,200
there.

1294
00:48:33,599 --> 00:48:37,680
We've got we've got an extraordinary

1295
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,520
opportunity now. And the opportunity is

1296
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,280
based on the manifesto that those of us

1297
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,280
who stood in the election were elected

1298
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,520
only about a year ago are going to

1299
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,680
implement. It's a it's a conservative

1300
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,839
manifesto for a conservative leader to

1301
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,200
deliver. But I agree with Charlie. I

1302
00:48:49,839 --> 00:48:54,000
agree that actually we've got to go some

1303
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,760
way down this negotiating road before we

1304
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,160
go to an election again. And the reason

1305
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,800
I say that is not for any other reason

1306
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,400
that the country needs stability now. We

1307
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,000
really need to have a little bit of

1308
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,319
stability for businesses to know what

1309
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,839
we're doing so that they can set up and

1310
00:49:06,319 --> 00:49:10,640
start employing again, start to get

1311
00:49:07,839 --> 00:49:13,040
foreign investment again, start to start

1312
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:16,000
again. Because once we've got that

1313
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:18,720
going, once we've got a negotiating

1314
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,079
strategy ready and once we know what the

1315
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:22,079
question is that we're actually asking

1316
00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:23,599
the British people to choose between,

1317
00:49:22,079 --> 00:49:25,440
then it's absolutely right that the

1318
00:49:23,599 --> 00:49:27,359
British people should have that choice.

1319
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,839
Now, whether that choice comes in a

1320
00:49:27,359 --> 00:49:31,040
general election or whether it comes in

1321
00:49:29,839 --> 00:49:32,400
a separate referendum

1322
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,920
or another another referendum,

1323
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,200
I would much prefer a general election.

1324
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,640
I would prefer it to be a government

1325
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,119
position put forward in a general

1326
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,760
election

1327
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:42,880
before before the whole deal is done,

1328
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,800
signed and sealed. Okay. Stubbornton.

1329
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,800
I think part of the problem with Tom's

1330
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,480
argument is that that implies the

1331
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:51,040
country is in a good place at the moment

1332
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,640
and it absolutely isn't. We've had real

1333
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,800
problems before the referendum was

1334
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,599
called, but particularly since and yes,

1335
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,280
the country does need stability. Whilst

1336
00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:01,280
we are negotiating, it's going to be a

1337
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,839
real problem. In terms of should we have

1338
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,839
a second general election quickly, that

1339
00:50:03,839 --> 00:50:07,760
will absolutely be up to the next prime

1340
00:50:05,839 --> 00:50:09,680
minister to call, even though we have

1341
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,400
legislation to make it harder for them

1342
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,400
to achieve that. Yes, they will need a

1343
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,040
mandate because there are many many

1344
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:19,280
people who did not vote remain who will

1345
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,119
want to know uh exactly what direction

1346
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,400
the government's going in. But most

1347
00:50:21,119 --> 00:50:24,240
importantly, the government needs to

1348
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,079
actually understand uh what it's

1349
00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:28,000
offering Europe when as it starts the

1350
00:50:26,079 --> 00:50:29,440
negotiations. Can I ask the question

1351
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,960
about 16 and 17 year olds?

1352
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,319
No, because I want No, no, that's

1353
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,680
another question and we've only got five

1354
00:50:32,319 --> 00:50:35,599
minutes left. I want to get a question

1355
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,280
about the Labour Party before we end.

1356
00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:38,559
But George Galloway on the general

1357
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,760
election briefly and then we'll come to

1358
00:50:38,559 --> 00:50:42,559
the Labor Party. We need a general

1359
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:45,119
election now. We are going to have in a

1360
00:50:42,559 --> 00:50:48,319
couple of months either John Major in

1361
00:50:45,119 --> 00:50:50,480
address or Janet Brown channeling

1362
00:50:48,319 --> 00:50:54,640
Margaret Thatcher and that's not

1363
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:57,119
acceptable. Chosen by 150,000 members of

1364
00:50:54,640 --> 00:51:00,079
the Conservative Party. I said this when

1365
00:50:57,119 --> 00:51:03,119
Gordon Brown foolishly didn't go to the

1366
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:06,000
country in a general election uh in

1367
00:51:03,119 --> 00:51:08,240
2008. I I demanded a general election

1368
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,960
then and I even said it when James

1369
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:13,680
Caligan took over from Harold Wilson. So

1370
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:16,960
I'm not contradicting any previous uh

1371
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:19,760
positions on this. The country is a new

1372
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:22,400
country now after the Brexit vote. It

1373
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,839
wasn't in your manifesto. It couldn't

1374
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,079
have been because you didn't know we

1375
00:51:23,839 --> 00:51:27,839
were going to even have a referendum.

1376
00:51:26,079 --> 00:51:29,760
You didn't even want one. It was only

1377
00:51:27,839 --> 00:51:32,800
that the Liberals only that the Liberals

1378
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,319
was in included the need. But you didn't

1379
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,440
want to implement it. You hope the

1380
00:51:34,319 --> 00:51:39,119
Liberals platform specifically war.

1381
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,960
Let's not fight that battle. Let's not

1382
00:51:39,119 --> 00:51:42,319
fight that battle. And we have only

1383
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,839
in October. That's what I say.

1384
00:51:42,319 --> 00:51:48,160
And let's hear from Kevin.

1385
00:51:45,839 --> 00:51:49,920
And let's let's hear from from Kevin

1386
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,559
from Kevin Cook, please.

1387
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,680
Is the Labour Party in terminal decline?

1388
00:51:52,559 --> 00:51:55,599
Charles Forner.

1389
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:58,160
No, it's not in terminal decline. There

1390
00:51:55,599 --> 00:51:58,800
is plainly.

1391
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,400
There is plain

1392
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,040
Why do you all laugh every time he says

1393
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,960
this? Best joke of the evening.

1394
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,839
It's not in there.

1395
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:10,319
Sorry. Uh it's not in terminal decline.

1396
00:52:07,839 --> 00:52:11,839
There is plainly a very significant

1397
00:52:10,319 --> 00:52:14,880
division between the parliamentary Labor

1398
00:52:11,839 --> 00:52:17,440
Party on the one hand and the leadership

1399
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:19,680
of the Labor Party on the other. I

1400
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,599
joined the shadow cabinet uh when Jeremy

1401
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,359
became leader of the Labor Party because

1402
00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:25,520
I was absolutely determined to make what

1403
00:52:23,359 --> 00:52:28,720
contribution I could to the unity of the

1404
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:31,520
Labour Party. uh after the Brexit vote

1405
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:34,400
when things very dramatically changed in

1406
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:37,119
this country, I took the view that we

1407
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:39,520
needed somebody who had an exceptional

1408
00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:40,960
leader to deal with exceptional times.

1409
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,040
And although Jeremy has had a

1410
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,119
fundamentally changing and beneficial

1411
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:47,200
effect on the Labour Party, I don't

1412
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:50,800
think he was the person for the times.

1413
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:53,440
That's why I resigned. It doesn't mean

1414
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:56,319
that we can't

1415
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:58,640
reunify that is between the leadership

1416
00:52:56,319 --> 00:53:00,240
and the parliamentary labor party either

1417
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,319
because agreement can be reached between

1418
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:04,240
us or alternatively that can't happen by

1419
00:53:02,319 --> 00:53:07,599
a leadership election but the Labor

1420
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:09,359
Party is most certainly not in terminal

1421
00:53:07,599 --> 00:53:11,520
decline because there will always need

1422
00:53:09,359 --> 00:53:12,720
to be a center-left alternative.

1423
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,720
It could be someone else. But Sal

1424
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:16,720
Brenton, are you hearing, as some people

1425
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:18,160
think you might be hearing, uh,

1426
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:20,480
suggestions from people who are

1427
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,160
disaffected with Jeremy Corbyn, thinking

1428
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,640
they might realign themselves with the

1429
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:27,040
Liberal Democrats, or is that too psy a

1430
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:30,160
question for you? You have to say yes.

1431
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:31,920
Um, I I will quite happily say that

1432
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,599
we've had some people from the Labour

1433
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:36,480
Party who've joined us over the last few

1434
00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:38,000
weeks. Um, we're certainly talking to an

1435
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:41,200
enormous number of people who want a

1436
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:44,400
real progressive, open, and uh, very

1437
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:46,000
tolerant center party of the future and

1438
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,680
uh, if more people continue to join us,

1439
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,079
we're delighted to be the flag head for

1440
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:49,440
that.

1441
00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:51,839
Do you think there's a moment for a

1442
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,800
realignment of parties to the left of

1443
00:53:51,839 --> 00:53:54,640
the Conservative Party?

1444
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,880
I think there absolutely is. And I think

1445
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,640
part of the problem I mean I' I've never

1446
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,200
heard of somebody who's managed to

1447
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,559
defend both Tony Blair and Jeremy Corbyn

1448
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,440
uh, at the same time. Well done,

1449
00:54:02,559 --> 00:54:06,640
Charlie. It's a it's a he absolutely a

1450
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,920
lawyer and it shows

1451
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,319
but I think and labor

1452
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,400
what I think what we are hearing is that

1453
00:54:10,319 --> 00:54:14,480
labor is not unified. It is absolutely

1454
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:17,040
deeply split and there are many many

1455
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:19,520
people in Labor who are unhappy. Um what

1456
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:22,000
politics has been missing for some time

1457
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:24,319
has been that voice that has been able

1458
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,440
to speak up for the progressive things

1459
00:54:24,319 --> 00:54:26,960
that we want the proportional

1460
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,559
representation that the lady spoke about

1461
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,079
at the back so that everyone feels they

1462
00:54:28,559 --> 00:54:31,599
get a fair vote and they can can

1463
00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:33,680
actually go out and do that. They feel

1464
00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:36,640
that their MP means something to them.

1465
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:38,960
All right, fair enough. Um, thank you.

1466
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:40,240
Um, George Galloway,

1467
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,640
Charlie, there are many ways of

1468
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:45,839
describing uh, Angela Eagle, but an

1469
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:49,520
exceptional leader she is not. They have

1470
00:54:45,839 --> 00:54:52,400
got an exceptional leader. Far from

1471
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:54,079
being in terminal decline, Labor now has

1472
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,720
600,000

1473
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:59,680
members, the biggest membership since

1474
00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:03,280
the end of the Second World War. and

1475
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:07,520
200,000 of those joined in the last 10

1476
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:09,599
days. Jeremy Corbyn can fill halls up

1477
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,119
and down this country. Hundreds of

1478
00:55:09,599 --> 00:55:13,760
thousands of people are joining the

1479
00:55:11,119 --> 00:55:15,760
Labor Party. And if people like Charlie

1480
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:19,040
don't like it, why don't they clear off

1481
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:21,200
and join the Liberal Democrat?

1482
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,880
I'm not from the Labor Party. I'm not

1483
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:24,800
joining the Liberal Democrats. And I'm

1484
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,359
determined to stay in a Labor party that

1485
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,800
can

1486
00:55:25,359 --> 00:55:29,520
stop stabbing the leader that was

1487
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:31,760
elected just 9 months ago.

1488
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,920
But he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't

1489
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,559
left the Labour party. I didn't respect.

1490
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:38,000
You were throwing.

1491
00:55:34,559 --> 00:55:41,760
I didn't I was expelled by Tony Blair

1492
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:43,920
who never came back.

1493
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,359
And and and Jeremy Corbin doesn't seem

1494
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:48,160
very keen on you either. I thought the

1495
00:55:45,359 --> 00:55:49,760
tactics that you used against Naz Sha

1496
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,480
were appalling. I'm quite shocked.

1497
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,319
That's what he said.

1498
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,880
Don't believe what you read in the New

1499
00:55:52,319 --> 00:55:56,880
Statesman written by him. Well, why not?

1500
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,880
Except it wasn't written by him.

1501
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,280
And he put his name to it. You know, the

1502
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,240
conventions.

1503
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,280
Oh, he didn't even put his name.

1504
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:03,040
No, he didn't. Okay.

1505
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:07,280
Being attacked in the New Statesman's

1506
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:10,000
like being slandered in an empty room.

1507
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:12,880
Well, again, George's reputation for

1508
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:14,799
that. I can't I can't go there.

1509
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,799
Labor is Labor in terminal decline.

1510
00:56:14,799 --> 00:56:18,319
Um, it's it's in a really serious

1511
00:56:16,799 --> 00:56:20,400
problem. I mean, the the parliamentary

1512
00:56:18,319 --> 00:56:22,160
party hates um the leadership. The

1513
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,760
leadership says it's not going anywhere.

1514
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,920
Jeremy Corbyn appears to be taken

1515
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:29,200
hostage in a small room somewhere with a

1516
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:30,960
group of carers um who are literally

1517
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,559
saying things like, "Leave him alone. We

1518
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:35,040
can't let people talk to him. They'll

1519
00:56:32,559 --> 00:56:37,280
bully him. He's 70."

1520
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,720
Well, then don't be leader. What this

1521
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,760
country needs, and it's really pathetic

1522
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:41,920
at the moment, we don't have a

1523
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,920
government. We don't have an opposition.

1524
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,200
We need both. That's what I call

1525
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:48,400
democracy.

1526
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,400
Okay, Tom.

1527
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,200
I'm very proud to be a conservative

1528
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,400
politician. Of course I am, to stand on

1529
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,400
a platform that I think is going to

1530
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,880
change the life chances of so many. But

1531
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,799
I also am more proud to be British. And

1532
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,720
British democracy relies on a government

1533
00:57:02,799 --> 00:57:06,720
and an opposition. And sadly at the

1534
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:08,160
moment we don't have an opposition that

1535
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:10,240
is making the cases that need to be

1536
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,599
made. And that isn't good for us. It's

1537
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:12,880
not good for parliament. And most

1538
00:57:11,599 --> 00:57:13,359
importantly, it's not good for our

1539
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,280
country.

1540
00:57:13,359 --> 00:57:17,119
Okay. I take a break from you, sir. And

1541
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,720
I think we almost have to close. You had

1542
00:57:17,119 --> 00:57:21,040
both hands up, so I'm calling you.

1543
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,880
Yeah. Maybe Labour needs a new uh

1544
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:26,550
leader, and it should be George Galloway

1545
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:30,329
in a cat suit.

1546
00:57:26,550 --> 00:57:30,329
[Applause]

1547
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:35,760
All right. I think

1548
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,680
he's he's up for it. All right. And a

1549
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,880
point from the woman there.

1550
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:39,839
Yes. Very brief. If you

1551
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,680
I don't think there's any point in

1552
00:57:39,839 --> 00:57:43,440
having a general election because what

1553
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:45,119
will happen is Murdoch will decide who

1554
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:48,119
rules this country next. and nobody

1555
00:57:45,119 --> 00:57:48,119
else.

1556
00:57:49,119 --> 00:57:52,400
I would have to do what he says.

1557
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,680
No, you can take private eyes view

1558
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,680
instead.

1559
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:58,400
Quite much much more reliable. We

1560
00:57:55,680 --> 00:58:00,079
we I'm sorry. We have we have to end um

1561
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,960
we have to end the program here. It's

1562
00:58:00,079 --> 00:58:04,799
also the end of um this run of question

1563
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:07,760
time tonight officially. We're going to

1564
00:58:04,799 --> 00:58:10,799
be back on the Thursday the 15th of

1565
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:13,040
September in Salsbury and on the 22nd of

1566
00:58:10,799 --> 00:58:15,040
September in Wakefield. and the usual

1567
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,400
arrangement just go to our website

1568
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:18,720
there's the address there or call

1569
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:21,359
0301239988

1570
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:24,000
if you'd like to come now events may of

1571
00:58:21,359 --> 00:58:25,119
course um mean we come back earlier I

1572
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,520
don't know what kind of events but

1573
00:58:25,119 --> 00:58:29,359
possibly the Tory leadership uh campaign

1574
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:32,480
and if that happens we'll be announcing

1575
00:58:29,359 --> 00:58:36,720
that on our website on Twitter and on

1576
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:39,599
our face page uh Facebook page so uh I

1577
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:41,680
hope that all makes sense um radio 5

1578
00:58:39,599 --> 00:58:44,079
Live the debate goes on on question

1579
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,839
time, extra time. I'd just like to thank

1580
00:58:44,079 --> 00:58:48,000
our panel here and all of you who came

1581
00:58:45,839 --> 00:58:50,160
to Brighton to take part and say that

1582
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:53,400
until we meet again from question time,

1583
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:53,400
good night.

1584
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,760
As developments in British politics

1585
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,839
continue following the EU referendum,

1586
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,520
there's discussion and analysis on what

1587
00:59:05,839 --> 00:59:10,559
happens next with Andrew Mah. Sunday

1588
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:13,119
morning at 9 on BBC1. Next tonight,

1589
00:59:10,559 --> 00:59:17,400
comedian Ahmed Janelli with Andrew Neil

1590
00:59:13,119 --> 00:59:17,400
on the subject of people power.