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[Music]

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Okay,

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I need some

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[Music]

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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway

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and me Guyatri.

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There are some guests who really don't

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need an introduction and one of those is

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Tuker Sulleman

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star of the BBC jewel in the crown

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dragon's den and himself a hugely

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successful entrepreneur. Tuker sits in

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judgment of the business ideas of others

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with flashes of kindness and amusement

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and blinding business wisdom.

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St. George famously slew the dragon, but

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I neither would nor could seek to slay

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Sullean the magnificent Tuker. I'm just

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glad that he's here and that I'm here to

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talk to him. Tuker, thanks very much for

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joining us. Let me pitch an idea to you.

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Whoa. Britain is a member of a 500

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million single market called the

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European Union. I have an idea that we

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might leave it. What would you say to

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that as an idea?

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The idea in principle

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is great for the British people, but I

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think you know there's expression

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there's no pain without gain. So, we're

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now going to enter that pain period

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uh in in the UK and uh I think a lot of

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the um British people were misled in

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what it really meant.

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Both ways really, don't you think?

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Yes. Both ways. You know, I think there

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are winners and there are losers

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w within the British people.

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Tell us about the winners. What parts of

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the British economy can gain from going

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it alone? Well, look, the biggest impact

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that we've seen with the forthcoming

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Brexit is the pound. The pound is

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devalued against the dollar

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approximately 20 odd percent.

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Uh so those companies that are

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manufacturing,

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producing in this country, their exports

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will become much cheaper and hopefully

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their exports will grow. In theory,

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that's what should happen and there

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should be import substitution instead of

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buying things from uh abroad. People

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should start making them here now and

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we'll buy them here.

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Well, funny thing is um we used to buy

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for one of my businesses called Horse

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and Curtis. We used to buy packaging

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from the Far East and an English company

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came to me last week and he pitched

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for the business and do you know

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something?

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He got it.

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He got it. It was cheaper. Yeah,

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cuz by the time you pay the increase in

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the dollar

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and the duty and the transportation,

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it was very competitive. So, I think we

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His plant was here.

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His plant was in Cambridge, a big

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packaging company, and they're now

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supplying everybody in the UK.

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Let me as it were then pitch another uh

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idea at you. Should we go for the full

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monty on the principle that we can take

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advantage of a boom in homegrown

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industries, a boom in exports and a fall

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in the labor supply because if we go for

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the full monte, there'll be no free

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movement of labor and more and more

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British people will be able to enter the

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labor market. We've seen a boom

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in the UK the last 10 years and that's

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because we've had a big influx of good

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labor. I mean we talk about good labor

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the Polish people

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fantastic labor

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great workers you know the Indian people

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the the people that bring at value

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they've also kept down inflation because

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they've done jobs which nobody else will

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do. So, so, so in a way I I would say

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this. I would say we shouldn't close our

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doors to professional hardworking

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people, but we should differentiate

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between what what I would call people

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that come here to abuse our national

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health service as social services. But

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that's the Tory government you're

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talking about.

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Look, whatever government, whatever

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government, you know, it is what's right

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for this country. And to me um that that

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there's good things bad things. I mean

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the one thing we haven't spoken about is

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the effect on goods that are going to

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arrive in this country from outside. So

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the next time you go and buy a phone,

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whether it's a iPhone or whatever,

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you'll pay £60, 70 more. Next time you

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buy a piece of clothing

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because of the currency fluctuation

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because the currency fluctuation all the

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clothing you see and we've seen clothing

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in the last 30 years

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go down in price.

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We're about to see the first inflation

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in clothing in 30 years.

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Yeah.

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Clothing will go up anywhere between

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8 and 12%.

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Then again, we can get into the clothing

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business then ourselves. Some of these

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some of these sweat shops in the east

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end might have to reopen. Let me pitch

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another idea at you. I'm a knight of the

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realm. I own one of the most historic

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pieces of British retail uh uh

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architecture. It has three initials.

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Right. I know exactly where you've been.

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And I'm thinking of selling it to a guy

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I met on the corner and he's going to

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look after everything including the

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pensions uh uh liabilities of the

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company. Should I sell it to him for a

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pound or not?

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Look, um I think

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all I can tell you is

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the person in question made a mistake.

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And the fact is that if he couldn't turn

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that business around, nobody could. So

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when he sold that business, he was

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already bankrupt.

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Yeah, that has to be the case.

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That has to be the case.

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He should have closed it himself and

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honored the uh commitments.

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Well, I I I I cannot speak for himself,

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but I think the fact really is is that

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he's a very good retailer.

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Um he's a he's a shrewd businessman and

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he should have put his hand up and say I

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made a mistake guys. This hasn't worked

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you know and I I think it was what I

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call the boomerang sale.

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Yeah.

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He sold it. It came back to haunt him.

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Yeah. Yeah. And and may may yet further.

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How did you get into television? You're

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a very successful uh entrepreneur and

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you've you've you've performed a miracle

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really of being both a successful

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entrepreneur and a very very engaging

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and popular television figure. How does

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that work? I'm asking because I'm maybe

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coming out of my own business.

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Well, let's see.

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Well, one thing's for sure, I'm not a

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celebrity, I'm an entrepreneur. So,

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that's the first thing. But it was

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sheerely the fact that um a good friend

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of mine called James Henderson from Bel

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Pottinger and he was approached. Does he

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know anybody who who could be a dragon?

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So I went up

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for an interview and they said we'll

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come back to you. And then they came

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back to me said can you go to Manchester

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to meet the the producer? I thought

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Manchester on the train anyway. So when

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I got there, sat down for lunch and

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within five minutes, he said, "I I want

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you." And I said, "I want you my show."

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It took 5 minutes.

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Wow.

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Amazing.

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She is your biggest fan and the show's

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biggest fan. When I came home and told

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her that we'd met in another television

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studio, she was her knees were

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because I Yeah, that was the one time

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that I didn't go with him. The one time.

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But here you are now.

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Yeah. The show is phenomenally

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successful even though no one can really

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identify with the I mean there must be

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billions of pounds worth of value

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sitting on that panel. Uh you you and

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your fellow dragons have at least made

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if not still got billions and not many

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of us come up with great ideas uh that

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we could dream of pitching to you. Yet

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millions of people uh watch it. a kind

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of escapism or what?

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Look, I think it is an escapism. It's

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it's it's a realistic show. All of us

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deep inside have this entrepreneurial

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urge and and I always say this, you

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know, you know, if you don't knock on

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the door, they won't open it for you.

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Yeah. But they have to do it on a public

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door. But but look, there are some

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genuine people who come on the show

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who've got genuine ideas who just want

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that helped taken to another level.

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There are the others who come on the

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show just for the PR.

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Yeah.

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So there are situations where you think

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you've made an investment and then

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afterwards they change their minds.

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Oh, really?

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Because they've had the PR.

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See, I've I was going to ask you that

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last question, unfortunately. Uh what

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happens afterwards? How many of the

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successful bids that you've made to back

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or offers rather to to back somebody,

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how many of them have gone on to be

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profitable businesses?

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Well, it's a bit early yet.

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You know, I've got So, for instance,

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I've I invested last year in timber

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kits. Timber kits have now increased

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their turnover, started to make a

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profit, but they're not quite there yet.

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The journey is not there. I invested in

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something called liquor. They doubled

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their turnover.

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Um, so it takes about two or three

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years.

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We're not wizard. You wave magic wand

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out it comes. Um, but I'll give you

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another example outside the den.

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A girl came to me with so-called

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matchick monkey. It's a TV brush for

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babies. That alone would be a

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multi-million pound business. That's a

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great idea

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because because it's a TV brush that's

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got scope to do other products,

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books,

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animated cartoons,

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complete merchandise

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merchandise. We've even got Mike

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Chapman, the famous Mike Chapman

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songwriter, right? That's a jingle.

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And that's outside the den. So it's not

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only in the den.

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Yeah. I mean, I knew when I because I

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was late, I knew that my wife would tell

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you that she's got a vintage clothes.

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would ask advice from you that you would

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that would otherwise be worth a lot of

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money uh at the time.

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Uh is does that happen to you all the

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time?

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All the time. Especially taxi drivers

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put them in the back of the taxi.

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They've always got say they've got

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they're a driver and they've got a small

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business on the side.

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Um going back to your wonderful wife,

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beautiful wife, may I say is that she

276
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did ask me and I think I gave her a few.

277
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:23,600
He did definitely I gave him some tuka

278
00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:28,079
time. And you see that's not cheap. Took

279
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:31,519
her time. Have you as it were profited

280
00:11:28,079 --> 00:11:33,040
profited or lost from becoming also

281
00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:36,720
involved in television?

282
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:39,120
Look, I I don't do it for the profit. I

283
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,680
think in most cases I love to help

284
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:40,800
people.

285
00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:43,279
Yeah. And you know,

286
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,120
I I love to help. Like this morning,

287
00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:47,040
somebody came to me got a little

288
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,920
problem. I helped them that's over the

289
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,920
moon. And the problem I've got is time.

290
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,480
How much time? because everybody wants

291
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,640
your time, you know, and it's very

292
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,880
difficult, you know, I I get direct

293
00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:02,480
messages and some of my I try to answer

294
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:04,720
back and it's difficult. I should really

295
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,560
um create a day when everybody can queue

296
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:09,279
up and come to me for 10 minutes

297
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:12,240
like Sullean the Magnificent.

298
00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:14,000
You could have a majus and the people

299
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,000
could queue up and you could see as many

300
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,880
as you were able to see that day and if

301
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,560
not next week. Tuker, you are a real

302
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,800
star and it's a pleasure and a

303
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:23,600
privilege.

304
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,959
Thank you. It's been a pleasure for me.

305
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,920
Thanks for joining us.

306
00:12:24,959 --> 00:12:30,399
Coming up next, have the walls of racism

307
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,959
come tumbling down? Before the trumpets

308
00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:36,519
of rock and roll, we meet a man with the

309
00:12:32,959 --> 00:12:36,519
answers after.

310
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:44,800
Welcome back to Sputnik. Rock against

311
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:47,680
racism was born in the 1970s out of the

312
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,519
struggle against the National Front. If

313
00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:51,440
you don't know who they are, you will by

314
00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:54,399
the end of this interview and other

315
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:57,200
far-right extremists as well as to stand

316
00:12:54,399 --> 00:13:00,800
up to what its founders perceived was a

317
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:04,160
wider racist malaise in the rock scene.

318
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:06,399
Uniting pop, rock, punk, and reggae

319
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:09,440
artists. The campaign has gone down in

320
00:13:06,399 --> 00:13:10,639
history of British anti-fascism and

321
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,639
protest music.

322
00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:15,360
Who better to talk us through its legacy

323
00:13:12,639 --> 00:13:18,320
than Daniel Rachel, author of Walls Come

324
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:21,760
Tumbling Down, the music and politics,

325
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:24,320
of rock against racism, two-tone and red

326
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:27,040
wedge. Daniel, thanks for joining us.

327
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,920
This book is the soundtrack of my life.

328
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,800
I became a political activist as it

329
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:36,320
happens in the early 1970s just before

330
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:39,040
the first rise of the national front and

331
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:42,240
moved to London in ' 83 got involved in

332
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:44,000
many of these movements. So I and I

333
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,639
think a lot of people are going to want

334
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,959
to get this book. Tell us why you wrote

335
00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:50,800
it and why you were the best person to

336
00:13:48,959 --> 00:13:53,519
write it.

337
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:57,040
Well, I was living in Birmingham in the

338
00:13:53,519 --> 00:13:59,360
mid 80s and I went to see Billy Bragg uh

339
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,560
for the first time on the Jobs for

340
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,680
Industry tour

341
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:05,839
and I went expecting to pogo down the

342
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:07,920
front to Billy and his electric guitar

343
00:14:05,839 --> 00:14:10,320
and the the cleansing rock of the

344
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,639
cleansing fire of punk rock as he calls

345
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,440
it. But when I stepped into the

346
00:14:12,639 --> 00:14:18,480
auditorium at the Birmingham Powerhouse,

347
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:20,959
Cla Short was there. I wasn't certain

348
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:24,480
who Cla Short was, but I knew she was an

349
00:14:20,959 --> 00:14:28,079
MP. And so there was a connection made

350
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:30,959
between politics and going in to see a

351
00:14:28,079 --> 00:14:33,920
musician. And out of that came the idea

352
00:14:30,959 --> 00:14:37,440
of Red Wedge a year later. And as a

353
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,959
person in my mid- teens, it was music

354
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,839
and politics were being brought together

355
00:14:38,959 --> 00:14:45,279
by an artist I like. And it set me on on

356
00:14:41,839 --> 00:14:46,959
a um a road I guess of exploration of

357
00:14:45,279 --> 00:14:50,560
culture, politics.

358
00:14:46,959 --> 00:14:54,160
This fusion of uh music, art, culture,

359
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:59,120
politics of course uh had happened

360
00:14:54,160 --> 00:15:01,279
before. Uh we're uh in the anniversary

361
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,760
coming up to the uh to the Bolevik

362
00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:06,959
revolution. There was a lot of uh such

363
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,720
fusion then, but in Britain it hadn't

364
00:15:06,959 --> 00:15:09,600
actually happened before.

365
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,240
No.

366
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,959
uh and your book uh chronicles how it

367
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:18,000
happened and also why it happened. And

368
00:15:14,959 --> 00:15:22,079
for younger viewers, whilst Britain has

369
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:25,440
no far right problem today in an

370
00:15:22,079 --> 00:15:28,240
organized sense, at least as compared to

371
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:30,000
some other European countries.

372
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,639
There are plenty of racists around, of

373
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:36,160
course, but but there's not a big and

374
00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:39,040
powerful fascist movement and

375
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:43,279
organizations in Britain now. But in the

376
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:46,079
70s and 80s there was first the national

377
00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:50,560
front which as farright groups do

378
00:15:46,079 --> 00:15:53,040
imploded and morphed became the BNP.

379
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,759
These were organizations with thousands

380
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:58,480
of members who marched and intimidated

381
00:15:55,759 --> 00:16:01,040
and threatened people. And so the

382
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,880
artistic community rising up to meet it

383
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,639
was a really significant political

384
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,440
thing, wasn't it? Well, the significance

385
00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:10,399
was that the the the talk of far-right

386
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:13,120
politics was very much within pop music

387
00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:14,880
and rock music. Rod Stewart had made

388
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,600
comments about immigration in the early

389
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,920
'7s. David Bowie was talking about the

390
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:23,120
idea of Adolf Hitler being the first

391
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:26,399
rock and roll superstar. Uh Eric Clapton

392
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:28,800
then in 1976 at a gig in Birmingham m

393
00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:31,199
made outrageous racist comments

394
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,199
continually throughout the evening

395
00:16:31,199 --> 00:16:35,360
calling for non-white people to get out

396
00:16:33,199 --> 00:16:38,399
of the country. Now that gig was

397
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:40,480
reviewed in the music papers and got an

398
00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:43,040
immediate response by an activist called

399
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,800
Red Saunders and the he wrote a letter

400
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:48,240
that was printed in all the music papers

401
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:50,560
and right at the end he said we need a

402
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,120
rank and file movement against the

403
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,880
racist poison in rock music. And there

404
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,440
was a P.O. box address at the end of

405
00:16:54,880 --> 00:17:00,560
this letter. And within weeks, hundreds

406
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:03,120
and hundreds of handwritten letters came

407
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:06,959
to what ostensibly became Rock Against

408
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:09,919
Racism. And out of that, a grassroots

409
00:17:06,959 --> 00:17:13,600
movement that originated in London,

410
00:17:09,919 --> 00:17:15,600
spread nationally. Um, groups popped up

411
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:19,039
all over the country that led to

412
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:21,839
carnivals, mass carnivals where tens and

413
00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:24,079
tens of thousands of people came. And

414
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:27,439
the important thing was that it was

415
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:30,240
white people saying that racism is our

416
00:17:27,439 --> 00:17:32,480
problem and we need to speak out against

417
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,799
it and crush it because as you rightly

418
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,039
say the National Front was scoring

419
00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:38,640
incredibly high in local elections

420
00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:40,960
around the country. They were

421
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,880
threatening at the next general election

422
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,480
which turned out to be as you know 1979

423
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:49,280
to put a candidate in every

424
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:52,080
constituency. the the need to crush

425
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:54,559
fascism or neofascism was immense and

426
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:58,640
and the answer came culturally which was

427
00:17:54,559 --> 00:18:00,640
very very exciting. Um so that the the

428
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,880
and the core principle of rock against

429
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,520
racism was very very simple. It was

430
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,679
let's put on a white band let's put on a

431
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,080
black band on the same bill and at the

432
00:18:07,679 --> 00:18:12,960
end they both have to come on stage and

433
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:15,919
jam together. So the vision of the

434
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:19,600
audience is black and white united on

435
00:18:15,919 --> 00:18:23,840
stage which Jared Damas who would go on

436
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:26,400
to form two-tone and form the specials

437
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,120
in the image of rock against racism i.e.

438
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,520
black and white members. He took that a

439
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:33,280
step further and said, "Let's have a

440
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,760
band with black and white members." And

441
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:39,120
suddenly you have the two-tone movement

442
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:41,840
ex exploding across the nation where

443
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:44,080
singles went every single one of the

444
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,000
first 10 two-tone records went into the

445
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,240
top 10. They were selling hundreds of

446
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,160
thousands of records. The high streets

447
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,039
were full of people wearing black and

448
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,960
white clothing. And suddenly racism was

449
00:18:53,039 --> 00:18:59,520
being flipped from this idea of the rock

450
00:18:54,960 --> 00:19:04,000
gods to to core workingclass audiences

451
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:05,919
who were equally being uh lured by the

452
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,799
National Front and and and they were

453
00:19:05,919 --> 00:19:11,440
being told you can go that way

454
00:19:08,799 --> 00:19:13,520
or you can go this way which is the way

455
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,280
of the angels is how it's described by

456
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,760
Robert Elms in the book. the way of the

457
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,120
great records, the way of the musicians,

458
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,080
the way that the majority of the

459
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:24,799
audience are dancing and enjoying music

460
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,640
and politically saying there has to be a

461
00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:27,760
social and there has to be a political

462
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,840
change in our country.

463
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,640
Well, if your writing is as good as your

464
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:37,679
talking, I'm going to uh start reading

465
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:41,200
this book uh this evening. Um, there was

466
00:19:37,679 --> 00:19:45,039
an organized left-wing political core to

467
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:49,520
the movement. Uh, far-left parties like

468
00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:52,720
the SWP, for example, were involved. I I

469
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:55,919
I think it's to their credit that they,

470
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:59,120
and I'm no fan of theirs, uh, that they

471
00:19:55,919 --> 00:20:01,760
knew and organized on the principle that

472
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:04,240
they knew that this had to be much wider

473
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,919
and bigger than them. How wide and big

474
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,080
did it get?

475
00:20:05,919 --> 00:20:11,039
It was absolutely enormous. And and the

476
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,280
crucial intervention was in a year after

477
00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:15,360
the formation of Rock Against Racism was

478
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,960
the formation of the Anti-Nazi League

479
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:19,039
with people like Peter Hayne.

480
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,120
I was in it

481
00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:23,600
and Neil Kinnick at the at the helm. And

482
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:26,559
you all know from being in Scotland that

483
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:29,039
that's the the mobilization that Rock

484
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:32,320
Against Racism needed culturally could

485
00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:35,919
be brought to a mass audience because of

486
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:37,919
their ability to to feed out across the

487
00:20:35,919 --> 00:20:39,919
whole of the United Kingdom. So you you

488
00:20:37,919 --> 00:20:42,880
had the music first, you had exciting

489
00:20:39,919 --> 00:20:45,679
concerts and before these events, you

490
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,600
then had political engagements and it's

491
00:20:45,679 --> 00:20:50,960
a lesson that Red Wedge, which is the

492
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:54,159
last third of the story, very much uh

493
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:56,400
learned from where you would have a Red

494
00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:59,840
Wedge concert in the evening. But in the

495
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:03,360
daytime they would fill church halls,

496
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:06,400
youth clubs and with disenfranchised

497
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:08,720
youth and they would bring them to meet

498
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,520
the pop stars of the day, number one

499
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,600
artist of the day, but also to bring in

500
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,000
the local politician and to bring in a

501
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,480
national politician. And Red Wedge said

502
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:22,240
to the politicians in the Labour Party,

503
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:24,640
"Your job is simply to listen. You're

504
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:27,039
you I want them they they were there to

505
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,799
listen to the grievances of people that

506
00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:31,200
felt they didn't have a voice and

507
00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:33,280
therefore didn't want to register on the

508
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,600
electoral role and therefore didn't even

509
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,200
want to vote and decide their own

510
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,480
future.

511
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:43,600
Where did it all go wrong?

512
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:45,520
Exactly. Uh this was a golden era and

513
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,760
especially listening to you talk,

514
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:50,400
looking back on it, thinking back on it,

515
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,679
a real golden era when

516
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,240
unimaginable almost

517
00:21:51,679 --> 00:21:56,559
were at their best.

518
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,120
No, we don't have fascist organizations

519
00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:01,760
of any size.

520
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:07,200
Not just the National Front, but the BNP

521
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:10,240
are also history. the EDL can't fill two

522
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:14,559
or three coaches to go and kick people

523
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:17,360
in uh various northern towns. Uh but

524
00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:20,559
there is mass racism in the country.

525
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:24,559
Again, not as bad as it is in some other

526
00:22:20,559 --> 00:22:27,679
countries, but still very bad. And most

527
00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:30,799
of these cultural icons have kind of

528
00:22:27,679 --> 00:22:33,600
faded from the scene. Some even changed

529
00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:36,799
sides to some extent.

530
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:40,799
um when's where's the next wave coming

531
00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:43,520
from of resistance to racism?

532
00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:46,159
That's incredibly pertinent question.

533
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:48,559
And of course, when pop music involves

534
00:22:46,159 --> 00:22:50,960
itself in politics, pop music invariably

535
00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:53,520
only has a very limited lifespan. You

536
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,120
know, you're lucky if a band lasts two,

537
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,120
three years. You know, the Beatles

538
00:22:55,120 --> 00:23:00,320
recorded lifespan is is barely seven

539
00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:02,400
years. So for these artists they took

540
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,840
they seized their moment and incredibly

541
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,600
seized the moment where they were

542
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,000
becoming famous for the first time in

543
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:11,280
their lives. So where you could just

544
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,760
enjoy the the the you know the the the

545
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,600
rewards of success they chose to align

546
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:19,600
themselves politically and take the

547
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:21,919
journey as a as a hand a dualhanded uh

548
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,559
initiative if you like. So that takes a

549
00:23:21,919 --> 00:23:26,480
lot of courage. Um but that was then

550
00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:28,799
that was the 70s that was the 80s. It

551
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:31,360
was a different social political time.

552
00:23:28,799 --> 00:23:34,640
Now we live in a new age. And I I I'm

553
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:36,880
not one for saying that movements should

554
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,960
be replicated. I think history and

555
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,440
reading perhaps books like this can

556
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,240
teach us what works and what doesn't

557
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:46,240
work and what youth movements want,

558
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,799
where they come from, and why people are

559
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,360
inspired to be part of them. But really,

560
00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:53,440
they have to come from the grassroots.

561
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,919
And I think in many ways the grime

562
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,799
movement has been doing that for at

563
00:23:55,919 --> 00:24:01,200
least 10 years. But there but do we know

564
00:23:58,799 --> 00:24:03,200
about grime in a national way? Perhaps

565
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,840
not. And why is that? Then we we could

566
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:09,440
then look at media and and how does

567
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:12,159
media control um the outlets of

568
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,520
underground resistance groups. So

569
00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:15,679
therefore, if it's being pushed out of

570
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:20,400
the mainstream, maybe therefore it's

571
00:24:15,679 --> 00:24:23,440
online and and online offers incredible

572
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,720
uh opportunities for mass resistance.

573
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,600
And I think perhaps that's where the

574
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,279
answers will come.

575
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,600
Rachel, the very best of luck with this

576
00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:34,039
book. You deserve every success. Thanks

577
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,039
for joining us on the split, Nicknick.

578
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,799
And now it's your turn to tell us what

579
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,360
you think through the portals of social

580
00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:44,000
media. What's rattling? So we first

581
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:46,720
asked uh the audience um how they would

582
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:50,640
like to see Britain post Brexit and

583
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:52,880
Jennis Carr answers Krikey there so much

584
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,520
securing human rights employment

585
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:59,840
environmental protection encouraging

586
00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:02,159
fair trade with third world and Agathlas

587
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,400
says as Mr. Galloway has said, "Let the

588
00:25:02,159 --> 00:25:07,600
pound fall and encourage import

589
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:10,799
substitution." And in regards to music,

590
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:13,440
uh, combined with politics. Um, Echo

591
00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:16,080
Marley says, "Reggae and Bruce Lee

592
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:19,200
films, music is my art of fighting

593
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,360
without fighting. I disrupt the corrupt.

594
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,520
I turn music into food."

595
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:25,520
Good for you, Mr. Marley.

596
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,360
That's all we've got time for,

597
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,200
which alas means that's the end of the

598
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:32,480
show. But you can stay in touch with us

599
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:35,120
on social media Twitter RT_Sputnik

600
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,279
or Facebook Sputnik onRussia today. It's

601
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:39,520
goodbye from meatri

602
00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:42,520
and from me George Galloway. It's been

603
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,520
marvelous.

604
00:25:46,090 --> 00:25:49,150
[Music]