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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Gallow and me gatri I
spent some of the best years of my life
in Nicaragua during the original
revolutionary government of the
sandinistas after the overthrow of the
Samosa dictatorship the fsln set about
transforming the impoverished Central
American country in ways which made it
beloved of all Progressive people
throughout the world the US government
of Ronald Reagan and with George Bush
Senior John negro Ponte Colonel oliv
North and a cast of right-wing crazies
set about a terrorist campaign against
Nicaragua similar to the one in Syria
today the world Court condemned the US
for terrorist acts but that didn't stop
them eventually the sandanista
government was brought down and most of
what they achieved destroyed it was bu
business as usual that seemed to be the
end of that but From the Ashes of defeat
the sandanista leader Daniel Ortega rose
again and he celebrates 10 years in
power since being reelected on November
5th an auspicious date
2006 to Mark the occasion we are
delighted to welcome Nicaraguan
ambassador to Britain Her Excellency
Gizelle Morales aavi your Excellency
thanks for uh joining us and
congratulations on the uh 10th
anniversary what are the main
differences between the sandinistas when
I knew them and loved them and the
sandinistas in power now today uh thank
you George for inviting us and and be
part of this
celebration and um H to your answer I
will say there is no difference you know
why because the same most of the people
that fought in h for the Sandinista was
part of the Sandinista first time of the
revolution is still there the revolution
hasn't stop we just wait wasn't waiting
for 15 years but the revolution continue
and the revolution is still there now so
so it's not like labor and new labor
it's not new sista with a different uh
approach altogether not at all it's the
same Sandinista we have the same uh
principles we we still believe in the
sandino uh um ideals and we still
believe that people is first so that is
the main thing of what happened in the
first time of the Sandinista people was
the first important thing in the in the
revolution and is happening now too and
what about the emnity of the United
States I was there when the Contra
funded and armed by the United States
were literally cutting people's throats
and leaving their tongues like neck ties
teachers were targeted health workers
were targeted literacy workers were
targeted the United States did
everything it could to destroy the great
achievements of uh president Ortega's
first term in power
has the US gone uh a little bit soft on
the Nicaraguan process uh I think they
have been
realistic they have been realistic in
terms of uh that this government this
new Sandinista government has the back
of the people the people is backing so
there is different
internationally the in in in in the
region H has much happened in terms of
governments leftwing governments and
socialist government who has come to
power uh Latin America is not the same
Latin America than the 80s so they are
being practical and they are been we
have been working with America in many
in many in many areas they still are the
first uh uh our first bugers our First
Investors and and I think they they but
but not we have not to be uh let's
say clouded by by this uh this good uh
we'll say good
relations and but uh because lately we
have uh the it has been approved by the
um Congress Anika act which is about to
to ask the government US government to
stop the funding uh from International
Financial
organizations uh loans to Nicaragua if
they believe the H elections now are um
not not their like of their liking of
their liking that's that's what that's
the best one they they are they they be
they are not stopping they are just
moving in different forms and of course
as you say it's not the Latin America of
the 1980s but it may be heading back
that way there have been many setbacks
for the left in Latin America just in
the last couple of years yes indeed we
have different movements we have um they
don't use anymore the the the CPS
military coups but now they use the the
national assemblies to do the cup and
and and and we have to be realistic that
we live in a different moment and the
people has the power to change for
changes so if the people believe this is
the way we should go I think the left
has been uh in Latin America has been uh
respecting that uh that decision and and
we need to work in a different way and
find our ways back to the people to the
people keep electing uh a governments
that will fight and and will put them
first there are not many figures like uh
president Ortega whom I knew in the
1980s who are still strong and
determined in
2016 what's the secret of his uh
longevity so I can have a drink of it or
or eat it I I think uh that his good
health is because he he is he do a lot
of uh exercise he believes in he runs
every day of his life he runs every
morning don't tell don't tell day um the
I think he he he also has a wife who is
very much into the uh good uh food well
I want to ask you about the wife cuz
obviously we present the show together
we work together as husband and wife and
he and his wife president's wife has
been with him with the revolution from
the beginning they've been working
together from the beginning could you
tell us more about her well it was even
before the Revolution win in then in the
ER Rosario Muro has been member of the
supported and and Guerilla fighter since
the early ER
70s H so she has been in the Sandinista
party and the Sandinista movement
long ago and she made her names not
because of the wife of of Danielle but
because her own uh Merit the uh
achievements in the field of women's
rights for Nicaragua have always been
part of your main uh attraction and
appeal to people I saw some figures uh
uh from you uh
showing that you're actually on the the
World level you are ah ahead uh on some
of these achievements the gender gap uh
figures tell us about those well as you
mentioned since the beginning woman even
before women were leading the Sandinista
fight in the guillas time uh and after
that we have Minister lead
leading health for example International
Affairs we had ministers in all all all
of that and in this time in this new uh
government Sandinista government that's
one one of the thing that we wanted to
keep working on and the to keep the to
close the gender gap that was created
during 17 years of neoliberalism so what
we did is uh in 2009 with um 10 sorry uh
there was a law that goes 50/50 and it
was a law of equity uh gender uh to
close the gender gap and um so from now
from that loan every government body
body should have if the minister is a
woman the man is the vice minister or
the deputy and the same so we are equal
on that and on position of Direction
there is always a woman and Co working
together and and in the elections all
the parties who goes
to H to participate in an election they
need to have uh candidates half has to
be woman has to be has half has to be
men that's a remarkable unbelievable and
so that has taken us from being number
12 I think in
2014 to number 10 now and gender gap in
the war and in the overall measure of
Gender Gap Index um but the most
striking is the political attainment
which is n we are number four in the war
and we have achieved we have close the
gender gap in education and health and
that is a reflection of what the
government has been doing in those
social are areas let me get this right
you are number four in the whole world
for women's
empowerment e political Empower
empowerment political empower
I don't want to embarrass you but where
does Britain come in in these uh in this
table well I I I'm not the one who will
be embarrassing is the gender cap index
and it's 24 so Britain is 24 despite
having a woman head of state and a woman
prime minister and you are number four
this is a remarkable achievement
congratulations also uh on that uh we
don't have uh much more time but but how
much more time do you think Danielle
will put in as uh president is there any
talk of retirement or is he going on
well he has to finish uh if he is
elected he has to finish his Mandate of
course and then we need the Sandinista
party needs to decide that we have a
council in the Sandinista party uh who
are members are elected to become part
of it so it's a it's a it's a very
democratic process that goes on
internally in the party so he will be
really if he if if the San does
membership believes he needs to go on
and he has the health and he has the has
done the good job we believe we all be
working on I hope he keeps on running
myself your Excellency thank you for
joining us on board the Sputnik thank
you to you coming up next the political
cartoonist pen sharper than any sword
don't miss
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it welcome back to Sputnik as you
already know I'm a firm believer that if
the pen is mightier than the sword then
the cartoonist pen is the sharpest of
the lot Dr Timothy Benson is one of the
sharpest tool in that particular box he
is Britain's leading Authority on
political cartoons and has just released
his book Britain's best political
cartoons and he has his own cartoon
Gallery in Putney in London which should
be on every London visitor's list of
boxes to take Dr Benson joins us now
congratulations on the book is this the
fourth this is the fourth one in the
series it is uh a remarkable uh piece of
work I've got the previous three I'm
hoping you're going to leave me that one
a signed copy of that one um it is
undoubtedly true that if you can get
people laughing at your political
opponents it's much more effective than
merely throwing brick bats at them and
indeed we were discussing there's that
famous quote from the spitting image
people that if a politician ever asks
for his dummy then he's failed what's
the
historical uh impact of cartoons in your
view how long has this been going on and
is it a very British thing how long have
you got mhm I mean England has an
unrivaled Heritage in cartoons
we don't we don't lead the world in much
these days but when it comes to
political cartoons we've always had the
best cartoon and interesting what you
said about making fun of politicians um
if you look at the great David low who's
the father the daddy of them all um he's
famous for ridiculing Hitler and
musolini in the 1930s and 40s and he
created Colonel blimp and the TU C cart
horse and he said about Hitler and other
dictators you want them they want to be
portrayed as monsters they want people
to fear them but if you portray them as
fools they hate it and in fact Hitler
tried to censor Lowe's material he put
pressure on the foreign office to get
him to tone down his work that was an
early example of course uh David Cameron
and uh and uh Tony Blair perhaps Blair
in particular and perhaps Steve Bell in
particular he's my favorite I must tell
you I'm a great admirer and and he
features a lot in our new film on Blair
how he drew Blair over the years
metamorphosing into Thatcher with the
one staring uh eye is is pure genius uh
in my opinion do you think Blair was
particularly well
caricatured I think he it was difficult
it's difficult to get young politicians
to caricature them properly especially
you know now we have women politicians
but luckily they're much older when
they're young they're they're not cracky
their Fe you know their noses haven't
grown they haven't got the uh the es and
the lines and so it takes time and also
they don't have the tags of identity you
know Churchill had the cigar they played
up to the
cartoonist and um the thing with Blair I
always thought it was it was sort of
cartoons and S of things were beneath
him and that he wasn't bothered them but
I bumped into Nick Brown a couple of
years ago and he told me that Blair was
incredibly Vain and hated being
portrayed especially with a a receding
hairline that really got to himed that
really got to him yeah John Major of
course was another one well John Major
was brutally caricatured again
especially by Steve as uh effectively a
man who tucked his shirt into his
underpants which were in any case a very
unflattering baggy gray a pair of WS and
in the end John Major was his underpants
yes indeed and in fact major said when
when somebody mentioned the cartoons to
him about being depicted that way he
said these things are done to
destabilize me so I was discussing with
my friends my Dutch friends recently how
iconic British humor really is it has
this particular you can't describe it
and it's just I grew up with it I loved
it and yesterday we were watching Only
Fools and hores again and instantly you
get that British humor and you think
that's the same in a cartoon world oh
and I mean you know half probably
two-thirds of this book wouldn't be
published in any other country CU
British cartoonists have far more
freedom here to be as crude as they like
I mean it's a very it's very much an
unfair art form it's a very reactionary
art form because if it was the opposite
if it promoted the politicians it would
then end up as propaganda yeah but this
you use the word earlier
destabilizing uh this makes the point I
made in my introduction that uh this is
much more damaging to a politician than
mere
criticism because Mak people laugh at
Mrs Thatcher didn't have she didn't she
she didn't have a sense of humor
no so it didn't bother her well you know
I sat in Parliament as you know for for
almost 30 years and I I can tell you
that when the house was laughing at
someone it was infinitely more
destabilizing than if the house was
shouting angrily at someone I've seen it
uh with my own eyes it's all about
perception isn't it if you damage the
perception it's like Ed millerand and
Neil kinck once you make them look unpre
ministerial so to speak
that that's very damaging cuz people
I've got a quote in the book cuz I've
I've been um I've been looking at
American elections and British
cartoonists and I've got a quote from a
cartoonist who says that David Cameron
is the type of guy you would get to play
a prime minister in a movie and it is
very much about perception and Ed was
never never appeared Prime ministerial
therefore
probably Minister let's take a look at
of take a look at some of the
stuff from the book this of
course a pasti on the Saddam statue
being pulled down there's Blair
unmistakable uh being pulled down by
chilcott not quite true as it turned out
because chilcott's 2 million words uh
were largely ignored in the in the end
and you could say that Blair was already
down before chilot uh uh was pulling him
down I mean he great cartoonists they
conflate two two ideas don't they they
take two things they put them into one
and it's um you know this one ad
Christian Adams from The Daily Telegraph
oh yeah the telegraph gives a lot of
space to do and they they actually gives
um Christian a lot of lot of freedom to
attack to attack everyone surprisingly
um interestingly Steve Spell's cartoon
on the chill cot inquiry was refused
publication did not appear in the
guardian oh I didn't know that because
it had Blair C
it's not in the book um cuz I chose that
one but um it was one Blair sitting at a
desk the chill cot inquiry on the side
and a revolver on the table so the
implication rejected on grounds of taste
yes it's always taste yeah always let's
have a look at some of the uh others
this one is particularly brilliant yes
this is Michael go thinking he's
stabbing Boris Johnson in the back but
of course it goes right through and uh
and stabs I mean all cartoons in essence
are visual metaphors they not and the
best ones are those without any speech
bubbles or captions I mean that that
says everything that's just absolutely
brilliant and of course uh Johnson
survived and and go didn't uh Johnson's
now the foreign secretary for now at the
time of uh publication a very good one
who did this one this is Peter Brooks of
the times is probably our greatest
living cartoonist you think so I think
him and Steve are the two big guns of
British yeah yeah I'll grant you that
I'm just not a fan of the times so I but
Peter gives no quarter to the the
government and you know he gives the
opposition as hard a time as he does the
government but he now what about a
politician that's beyond caricature
Donald Trump Donald Trump yes Beyond sat
oh you've got one ah this is Adams again
the right to bear arms he's of course a
big Pro Gun Man or at least is now
pretending to be uh be a lot of things
he's blasting himself through the
through the foot yeah visual metor yeah
visual metaphor but then again he's
marching on isn't he and isn't that the
point about Trump the point yeah that
that any other politician would have
done he'd be dead by now he shot himself
so many times you got Sarah Palin to
endorse him six months ago that would be
the end for everyone else but for him he
can say anything and do anything he can
insult the dis he can just it's never
gone out of fashion you mentioned L uh
who famously as you say uh portrayed the
TU Trade union Congress for younger
viewers as a as a as a a c horse the UNS
uh and uh Ernie Bavon as a horny handed
powerful uh forearms which of course he
got rid of George Lansbury just yes he
throttled
himy
bewhere obviously the incident when
that you know yeah yeah too far left uh
but uh the the so going right back now
to well of course it goes back centuries
but but there's in the 30s uh Bon the TU
um Churchill in the 40s it's not gone
out of fashion has it only that
newspaper circulations are declining
yeah because of Technology a lot of
people get their news now on on tablets
and it's not the same
translate to they don't and the cartoon
was King if you think in Lowe's time in
the 1930s there was no television radio
was in its infancy everyone got their
news through the newspaper and the
cartoonists were the celebrities of
their day Sydney struy worked for the
Daily Express was on £10,000 a year in
1931 wow now if you think could buy a
house in London it's it's almost
impossible way more it's impossible
because you know the spending power was
much
those days that's fantastic but um so
what will happen then I mean I'm one who
will celebrate when the last editor is
strangled by the last copy of the Daily
Express yeah sure uh what will happen
when there are no more news I don't know
it is as we know it's impossible to
predict the future and it's especially
difficult to predict technology and the
way it goes I don't know the thing is
online when you look at an online you
have to search out the cartoon whereas
in the newspaper you just come across it
natur now the whole thing about the
newspaper cartoon it was it was there to
support the editorial L of the newspaper
originally and it was there to break up
the huge amount of text there was no
photography well the good news is we've
got your four grps abely and we've got
your gallery in Putney which I'm going
to bring my family look forward to
seeing you very very soon thanks for
joining us no
trouble and now it's your turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
social media what's rling gri well
Nicaragua celebrates 10 year 10 year of
the sista movement or comeback really of
Daniel Ortega and AD Cabello says great
to see The Return of a true socialist
revolutionary giant to Latin American
politics will he be allowed to succeed
though uh well of course there is no
path the path is made by walking and DGA
has been walking since the
1970s and his great achievement is to
come back from defeat and how um and
then the best political cartoons Simon
Brian Anderson sent us the following
picture it's very effective actually
we'll see what the outcome is we've got
a special Sputnik on Wednesday from
breakfast talking about the outcome of
this epic battle for the presidency of
the United States that's all it tws say
we have time for then which alas means
that's the end end of the show you can
stay in touch with us on social media
Twitter rtor Sputnik or Facebook Sputnik
on Russia today it's goodbye from me
gatri and from me George Gallow it's
been marvelous
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