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Okay. I can't

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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me, George Galloway. Tell me Gatri,

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the right honorable Peter Lily, MP, is a

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long-erving member of parliament, a

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former Tory cabinet minister under

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Margaret Thatcher and John Major and

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once a contender for the prime

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ministership itself. economically

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conservative and the former secretary of

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state for trade and industry. We thought

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we should seek his council on where

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Britain is headed in the wake of the

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chancellor's autumn statement and in the

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face of the silent calls of ruin all

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around. I sat with him in parliament for

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almost 30 years. He's sitting there

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still and I'm glad to say he's sitting

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with us on board the Sputnik today.

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Thank you very much Peter for joining

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us. The autumn statement yesterday was a

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a fairly dire uh set of figures. Uh they

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are seeking to blame it on the decision

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of the British people to leave the EU.

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To what extent is that an accurate uh

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analysis in your view? Well, I just

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think it shows that the whole

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forecasting profession and establishment

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haven't yet caught up with the fact that

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they were wrong. They forecast that we

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should now be in a deep recession with

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the uh GDP 3.6% down, 500,000 more

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people unemployed by the end of the

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year. Uh and it hasn't happened and

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they're sly slowly adapting. I used to

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be in the forecasting business and I

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found it very difficult to forecast the

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future, but it was very easy to forecast

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how other people would forecast and it's

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quite easy to forecast how the things

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like the Office of Budget Responsibility

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will forecast. That is to say, they'll

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half the distance between what is

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happening and what they forecast will

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happen and forecast that will happen

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next. And so they're always a bit behind

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the time. Forecasting the past uh they

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can uh as we found over both Brexit and

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the Trump uh presidency, uh their

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ability to forecast the present, never

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mind the future, is I think fatally

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wounded. Don't you? Absolutely. I'm not

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that I got it right. I I did on both

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counts, I must say. Well, I I for some

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reason assumed we we were going to lose

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the Brexit vote, went to bed in despair

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and woke up in joy. But um that's partly

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that I'm always cautious and so I I

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prefer to forecast that bad things will

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happen and then when good things do or

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bad things don't, I feel very cheerful.

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Although nothing is ever as good or as

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bad as it first appears, as we both

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know. Um the cost of Brexit, as the

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media keep telling us, is steadily

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escalating. Uh just at the moment when

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it would appear new forces are coalesing

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to try and scupper Brexit by making it

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as unattractive looking a prospect as

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possible and then going for a second

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referendum. Do you think they're going

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to get away with that? No, I don't think

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they will. And happily the prime

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minister although she uh was on the side

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of remain seems now to have recognized

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that the British people have spoken and

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she's going to proceed and not allow

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herself to be reversed and actually even

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in in the lower house in in the House of

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Commons uh there's a general consensus

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we'll all vote for triggering article 80

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sending the letter off starting the

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negotiating procedure may run into

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difficulty with the House of Lords but

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if the House of Lords are too intr

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antigent. They might find they're

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committing suicide. Meanwhile,

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however, this figure from the past, we

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thought as we just made a film about

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him, Tony Blair seems to return on the

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stage. The return of the Bl Rich

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Project. Exactly. How's that going to

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affect things? Well, that can only help

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Brexit. I think if he's associated with

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the forces of trying to reverse it, then

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if nothing else, that will mean that the

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bulk of the Labour party will then come

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on board in favor of Brexit since he's

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pose a very big difficulty for the SNP

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who are madly europile and madly anti-B

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Blair. Uh are they going to follow the

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leader they've spent the last decade

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excoriating and profiting from his

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excoriation? That will be wonderful.

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seem see them agonizing like that. It

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won't cause me any distress at all, but

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it might cause them considerable pain.

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It's clear, Peter, they're not going to

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try and stop the prime minister

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triggering the beginning of the

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negotiations. Seems to me given the

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meeting uh this week between Mr. Blur

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and your Urswile

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uh colleague uh Nick Kle uh that they

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are going to allow the negotiations to

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proceed but hope to paint the outcome in

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such an ugly way that they can get a

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majority in the House of Commons to put

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the final deal to the people in a second

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referendum. I think that's the game. uh

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is that I think is that in your view uh

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a real and present danger and how do you

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think people would uh vote in a second

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referendum? Well, they're trying

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certainly to make it a condition. The

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House of Lords might well be persuaded

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to make it a condition of triggering the

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uh negotiations that the government

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agrees to hold a second referendum at

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the end of the process. Uh, I think

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we'll throw it out in the comments, but

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if that were to go through, it would be

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very damaging indeed. It would undermine

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the government's negotiating position

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because then the European states would

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just make the outcome as unpleasant as

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possible. Even if were it to be

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implemented, it would be more damaging

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to them in the hope that the British

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people would then say, "Oh gosh, that's

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too dreadful." And come sort of crawling

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back and asked to be taken back in

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again. So that I mean that's the reason

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for not having a sec second referendum

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promised at the end of the process. I

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think that once we've done it actually

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people will think great we're now free

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now we can get on and do things.

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Something like 70 to 75% of the people

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at this stage don't think we should uh

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reconsider in a second referendum. It's

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a hardcore of 25% of the electorate who

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want to have another go. The problem it

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seems to me for the prime minister is

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that almost the totality of what I would

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call I wouldn't ask you to uh echo it

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the the ruling elite in Britain almost

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all of them are against leaving the

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European Union. The finance capital

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sector is virtually 100% against it. A

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lot of the newspapers and the BBC are

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against it. Uh it seems to me quite a

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tall order for the leader of the Tory

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party to force through a flagship policy

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against the will and wishes and

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interests perhaps of all the main uh

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bits of the Conservative Party's

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coalition. Yes, I'm not sure they're all

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part of the Conservative Party's

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coalition. You're right. They are the

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governing elite. Uh they have quite

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disproportionate influence and they're

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largely unelected and self-appointed.

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uh from the BBC, House of Lords, the um

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and finance capital as you say. I used

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to be part of finance capital. I was a

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partner of a a big uh uh finance company

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in the city. And when the then

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government, Mrs. Hatcher's government

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brought in big bang all my partners,

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there were 40 of them almost to a man uh

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said this would be the end of

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civilization as we know it. And you,

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Peter, you're in I was sort of just

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being involved in politics. you must

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somehow stop it. I said it seemed

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actually quite a good idea to me. The

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interesting thing was it made them all

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very rich so that they opposed something

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which actually turned out to be in their

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own interests. I was the only person it

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didn't make rich because at that point I

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got elected and became a member of

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parliament. Timing is timing is

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everything Peter the so I I think the

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finest government and they're just

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they're resisting change because it's

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simpler to resist change and continue

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with the system they've got once the

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change has been imposed on them as in

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the case with big bang they'll adapt to

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it and continue to make themselves very

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rich well as as a certain uh Dr. Markx

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said nothing is as constant as change

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and we are now in a period of

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extraordinary change politically. Uh

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this ruling elite lost on Brexit. They

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lost in the United States because all of

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finance capital was behind Hillary

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Clinton. All the military-industrial

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complex. All the newspapers were behind

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Mrs. Clinton and they lost and they lost

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uh the the Brexit. How far do you think

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that that change is going to go? I don't

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know. I I certainly didn't forecast it

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and so I'm probably not the best person

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to forecast what will happen next. Uh I

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find it very hard to think that for

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example Marine Mar Le Pen will win in

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France but for the first time it just

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becomes possible to sort of consider

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that might happen. It's already had its

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first uh impact, hasn't it? The goalists

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are choosing uh the most right-wing if

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you if you want to use old language as

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their nominee. They're in the process of

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uh of doing so. Although paradoxically I

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find myself in agreement with him and

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with Trump for that matter on some of

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the very biggest uh political issues

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like the need to end the steadily

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growing confrontation with Russia, the

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need to defeat ISIS and al-Qaeda

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decisively rather than by one means or

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another actually strengthen them. Uh are

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left right uh lines being redrawn? Will

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you and I be comrades at the end of this

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day? Well, we might we were in the

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Brexit campaign, I seem to remember. Uh

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we might well do. Uh the extraordinary

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thing is the what has happened actually

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is that the the progressive sort of

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elite who used to uh work hand inand

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with the industrial working class and

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they sort of work for them and produce

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goodies like council houses and so on.

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Um and it seemed to work quite well for

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both parties. that's broken down and now

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the uh the progressive elite uh despise

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the their old power base and they've

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just become a coalition of special

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interests of minorities but also sort of

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university educated posh people uh and

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they actually despise the man and woman

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in the street who used to be the base of

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their support and that went on for a

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while they because the man and woman

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street didn't realize but they it

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suddenly dawned on them that the people

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they used to rely rely on to sort of

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operate power on their behalf, despise

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them and loathe them. And that's what

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lies a bit behind Brexit, a lot behind

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Trump. I think uh it's bit less likely

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to be the case in France because um

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Marine Le Pen's party's got a long

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history behind it. I think the history

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of the fascist history of uh the

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national front and indeed the rightwing

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in Germany probably be significant

273
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barriers to them winning but they don't

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need to win if they can get some of

275
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their agenda uh adopted. It seems to me

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obvious if you create industrial deserts

277
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and call them insultingly call them rust

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belts and then expect the people who who

279
00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:19,519
have been left to live in the rust belt

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to continue to support the very people

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who presided over the

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desertification. Uh that's asking a lot

283
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even of a of a very uh uh patient

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electorate. Isn't that what's happening?

285
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That's what's happening on the economic

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front and on the sort of social front.

287
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They the elites sort of despise the

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ordinary patriotism, the ordinary

289
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working person in America in this

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country and call it xenophobia. And then

291
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when they're concerned about a large

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increase in the population, meaning

293
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there are few houses to go around and so

294
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on, they call that racism. Um, and when

295
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they uh ordinary working man or woman

296
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wants to sort of own their own home and

297
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so on, they're selfish. Uh so it's it's

298
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that sort of contrast of attitudes

299
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between the people who've got a lot and

300
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,360
feel superior and the people who've only

301
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got a little uh but have got their old

302
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,040
attitudes and values which they find are

303
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,040
actually despised by the people above

304
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,600
them. That's the big division in

305
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,360
society. Now Peter Lily, pleasure to see

306
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,320
you again and to talk to you. Thanks for

307
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joining us on the sputnneck. Coming up

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next, prepare to get down with it in the

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grime.

310
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:38,079
Welcome back to Sputnik. Hi Collins is

311
00:13:35,519 --> 00:13:40,560
the author of a new book, This is Grime,

312
00:13:38,079 --> 00:13:42,959
published by Hodder and Stoton. Recently

313
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:45,680
on the Sputnik, Daniel Rachel described

314
00:13:42,959 --> 00:13:48,000
grime as the heir to rock against

315
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,920
racism. So naturally, we thought you'd

316
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,800
want to know more about it. Hence, the

317
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,720
author herself is on board the Sputnik.

318
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,880
acclaimed writer for the Guardian, The

319
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,360
Sunday Times, and a shelf full of

320
00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,760
magazines, particularly ID magazine,

321
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,199
where she's the features director. I'm

322
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:06,240
glad to welcome Hattie Collins.

323
00:14:04,199 --> 00:14:08,240
Congratulations on the book. It's a

324
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,000
really beautiful product. The

325
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,160
publishers's done a great job with it, I

326
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,959
must say. Ideal Christmas present, I'd

327
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:17,040
say. I would say a stocking filler.

328
00:14:14,959 --> 00:14:22,240
A stocking filler. A really nice piece

329
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:25,079
of work. Now, you state that grime is,

330
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:28,720
and I quote, the most significant

331
00:14:25,079 --> 00:14:31,519
workingass subculture in Britain of its

332
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,839
time. That's a big claim. H how would

333
00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:35,519
you uh convince the viewers of that?

334
00:14:33,839 --> 00:14:38,560
Well, I think it's an incredibly

335
00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:41,120
provocative um culture. It's a very

336
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:43,440
articulate culture. Um it has it has

337
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,199
kind of spread from this very very small

338
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,040
tiny sort of outcrop from from the

339
00:14:45,199 --> 00:14:49,360
middle of nowhere really in East London

340
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,440
from from the the working class estates

341
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:55,279
of places like Bow in East London. It's

342
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:57,199
from my old uh constit I can't claim any

343
00:14:55,279 --> 00:14:59,440
of them. Well maybe you've influenced it

344
00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:00,959
in your own way George who knows. Um and

345
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,320
from there it spread it spread around

346
00:15:00,959 --> 00:15:03,839
the world you know you now have like

347
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,399
international superstars such as Kanye

348
00:15:03,839 --> 00:15:08,000
West and Drake who are talking about

349
00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:09,519
this this this culture and they want to

350
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,440
be involved in this scene. You have kids

351
00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:14,000
in Korea making grime now. You have kids

352
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,560
in Japan DJing Grime and inviting the

353
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,399
MC's over. Um so, you know, from from

354
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,959
Small Seeds has become this really

355
00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:23,760
important, powerful movement. Um it's

356
00:15:20,959 --> 00:15:26,320
all driven by a very DIY aesthetic. It's

357
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,680
all it's all very young people. Um most

358
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,440
with little to no money at the time that

359
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,720
the scene began and they did it all off

360
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,880
their own back, very much in the similar

361
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:35,279
way to to punk back in the 70s and '8s.

362
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:38,160
It reminds me a lot of uh punk. Not that

363
00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:40,880
I was a great fan of uh punk, but I

364
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,760
obviously recognized and of course now

365
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:46,160
recognize its historical significance,

366
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:49,759
but it seems to come out of the same

367
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:52,160
housing estates and be marked by the

368
00:15:49,759 --> 00:15:53,440
same, as you put it, lack of money.

369
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,560
Well, yeah, there was, you know, this

370
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,160
this was tough times, you know, when

371
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,639
when Grime first came to be in the early

372
00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,399
2000s. This was this was uh you know,

373
00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,720
very tough economic time. There was very

374
00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:04,240
poor schooling, very poor housing. um as

375
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,320
the book sort of reveals through it's an

376
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,160
oral history. So the book talks to um

377
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,720
not just the the people um who make the

378
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,399
music but also their parents. Um so you

379
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,320
know the book explains there was lots of

380
00:16:12,399 --> 00:16:16,079
social problems at that time um times

381
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,440
were tough and obviously from that comes

382
00:16:16,079 --> 00:16:19,279
great art. We've seen that many many

383
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,360
times. I take it in these difficult

384
00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:23,279
times. there was a big lure to gangster

385
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,560
as well of which well I think what a lot

386
00:16:23,279 --> 00:16:25,839
of these kids wanted to do was get away

387
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,040
from that you know yes of course there

388
00:16:25,839 --> 00:16:29,040
were lots of there were lots of issues

389
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,720
at the time in areas such as this um

390
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,399
there was there was problems with gangs

391
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,680
there was problems with drugs and what a

392
00:16:32,399 --> 00:16:34,880
lot of these young people wanted to do

393
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,279
was to take themselves out of that

394
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,519
environment and to provide perhaps even

395
00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:41,120
unwittingly uh role models to other kids

396
00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:44,000
from those estates to say look you know

397
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,759
there are far more alternatives to to

398
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,440
this life you can make music you can be

399
00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:50,320
an artist you can go on to be someone

400
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,079
like Jamal Edwards um who's uh who owns

401
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,519
a huge huge website. You could go on and

402
00:16:52,079 --> 00:16:54,959
be like Dynamo who's a magician. All

403
00:16:53,519 --> 00:16:56,480
these people, although you wouldn't

404
00:16:54,959 --> 00:16:58,000
necessarily class them as grime MC's,

405
00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,800
have all come from the same spirit.

406
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,639
Well, the uh defining characteristics of

407
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,520
it, I mean, to the people watching this

408
00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:08,240
who perhaps don't know some of the

409
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,919
things that we know or many of the

410
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,199
things that you know, cuz you're the

411
00:17:09,919 --> 00:17:15,520
expert. Um, if you settled down to

412
00:17:13,199 --> 00:17:17,199
sample the grime culture, what can I

413
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,120
expect? Uh, what can you expect? It's

414
00:17:17,199 --> 00:17:20,720
quite loud. It's quite loud. It's quite

415
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:23,679
noisy. It's very energetic. It's

416
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,120
characterized mostly by uh 140 BPM,

417
00:17:23,679 --> 00:17:26,720
which to put that into some sort of

418
00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:28,400
context, it means it's it's faster than

419
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,880
hip-hop. It's more around the sort of

420
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,640
jungle drum bass, like club music. So,

421
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,120
it's it's pretty fast, which means the

422
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,200
MC's uh are sort of driven to rap very

423
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:41,039
fast. Um, which gives it that sort of

424
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,720
energy. Um, and uh, yeah, it's very it's

425
00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:44,640
very powerful. I think if you were to

426
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,760
experience grime in its in its natural

427
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,520
state, which is in a club, it's in

428
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,360
rapping. Yes, rapping. It's all MCing.

429
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,720
It's all MCing. So, they say MCing,

430
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,480
which which is different to rapping in

431
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,120
it in its own way. So, so these are the

432
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,480
sorts of things that characterize

433
00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:00,960
us and rap. Well, rappers tend to rap

434
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,480
over over slower beats. Um, and MC's rap

435
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,400
over faster beats. There's also a

436
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,559
culture within grime very influenced by

437
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,160
by the lots of the parents of the scene

438
00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:10,320
um who have come from Jamaica and the

439
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,240
Caribbean of sound clash culture, which

440
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,720
is where artists in Jamaica would clash

441
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:18,400
each other. So, it's a very sort of um

442
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:20,799
uh competitive. So to to get what they

443
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,840
call a wheel up or a forward, a rave, um

444
00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:23,360
you have to sort of have the best

445
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,640
lyrics, the best lines. So there's a

446
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,720
sort of striving towards that, which

447
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,280
again is why they say MCing as opposed

448
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,720
to opposed to rapping. It's complicated.

449
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,480
The best way to do it, I think, is just

450
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,320
to throw yourself into YouTube, listen

451
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,919
to as much music as you can, and if you

452
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,360
get to experience music live at

453
00:18:35,919 --> 00:18:39,360
somewhere like an Eskimo Dance, which

454
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:41,200
travels around the country, go and see

455
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,799
it live. Essimo Dance. Yeah. That's

456
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,039
where you'll see the main players of the

457
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:46,480
scene. You'll capture the energy, the

458
00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:48,160
audience. It's a brilliant. The audience

459
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,160
gets so into it. It's a really

460
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,679
welcoming. Who are the audience? Um,

461
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,039
it's interesting that you as a white

462
00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:57,120
woman uh wrote this book. Most people in

463
00:18:55,039 --> 00:18:59,679
so far as they know anything about this

464
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:02,160
will have a preconception that it's a

465
00:18:59,679 --> 00:19:03,919
black thing. Yeah. I think actually it's

466
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,679
a common it's a common conception. Um,

467
00:19:03,919 --> 00:19:08,000
of course, mostly is it is mostly young

468
00:19:05,679 --> 00:19:09,600
black boys that do grime. Um, but it's

469
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,600
from it's from the East End, which as

470
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,440
you know, George, is incredibly diverse.

471
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,679
You know, you we have Indian people in

472
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,880
grime. You have um white people in

473
00:19:15,679 --> 00:19:20,400
crime. So it crosses over black Asian

474
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,480
boundaries. Black and Asian as well as

475
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,120
black white boundaries. Exactly. And

476
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,480
male and female. It is of course, as I

477
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,919
said, like mostly dominated by men, but

478
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,760
there are brilliant women within the

479
00:19:27,919 --> 00:19:31,600
scene. White women, black women, um

480
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,080
Asian women, Indian women, you know,

481
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,760
it's it's pretty diverse. And from

482
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,840
without sounding try and without sort of

483
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,200
sounding, you know, saying it for the

484
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,559
sake of it, I've always been incredibly

485
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,039
welcome within the scene. I've written

486
00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:44,720
about it for a long time um since its

487
00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:46,400
early earliest beginnings or earlier

488
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,760
beginnings and it's always been incred

489
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,360
incredibly inclusive and incredibly

490
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,720
welcoming because that's what those

491
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,960
estates were like. Lots of those estates

492
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:56,919
were very Now you you yourself raised

493
00:19:52,960 --> 00:20:02,160
the issue of women. Uh one of the common

494
00:19:56,919 --> 00:20:03,679
criticisms of previous genre uh is that

495
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,960
misogyny

496
00:20:03,679 --> 00:20:09,039
uh sometimes violently expressed is a

497
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:14,480
characteristic uh of those previous

498
00:20:09,039 --> 00:20:16,799
genre. How is uh crime visav these

499
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,720
gender issues? I think crime is quite

500
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:20,320
progressive actually in lots of ways and

501
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,160
and actually also with when it comes to

502
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,160
the sort of gender issue. I think, you

503
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,600
know, people tend to associate grime

504
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,559
with hip-hop. It's a sort of general

505
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,000
thing, but that's actually very

506
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:30,000
different for for some of the reasons I

507
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,840
explained earlier. And I think generally

508
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,120
speaking, when it comes to women,

509
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,880
there's actually a sense of equality.

510
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:36,799
There's very little there's very little

511
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,480
blisting of women. The videos very

512
00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:40,240
rarely show, you know, women in the club

513
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,679
being degraded, like the sort of normal

514
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,919
tropes we see with American hip-hop

515
00:20:41,679 --> 00:20:45,679
videos. Actually, um, actually, yeah,

516
00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:47,440
the there's lots of songs that you'll

517
00:20:45,679 --> 00:20:49,360
find, um, the main MC's talking about

518
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,440
their moms, their sisters, their

519
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,720
partners. Um, Stormsy has his mom in one

520
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,640
of his videos. You know, all these sorts

521
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,799
of things that people expect to see from

522
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,720
things like grime. They actually tend to

523
00:20:56,799 --> 00:21:00,080
do the opposite. Um, you just need to

524
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,360
scratch beyond the surface. I think lots

525
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,039
of people tend to look at it and see

526
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,400
lots of young black boys in hoods and

527
00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:06,799
assume that it's scary, that it's

528
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,799
violent, that it's misogynist. Um, but

529
00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:10,080
actually it's it's not, you know, you

530
00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:12,080
just need to look. Well, it's sounding

531
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,960
more and more like our kind of thing.

532
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:17,520
Uh, we need to get into this. We'll do

533
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:21,200
your next take dance. Yeah, Rob knows

534
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,679
this in the Eskimo uh event. Now the how

535
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,640
is it as it were monetized? Cuz it it

536
00:21:23,679 --> 00:21:28,799
takes money to buy mints. Uh nobody can

537
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:33,280
indefinitely produce art without

538
00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:35,600
earning. Uh how is it monetized? People

539
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,120
paying for downloads or buying tickets

540
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,880
for the gigs or what? Yeah, it's changed

541
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,400
over the years. Um, initially it was

542
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,679
lots of it was from the gigs you they

543
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,480
would get bookings. They would sell

544
00:21:41,679 --> 00:21:46,000
vinyl and artist like WY who is widely

545
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,600
assumed to be the sort of the person

546
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,679
that made up the genre, the godfather of

547
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,360
grime, would sell thousands of of vinyls

548
00:21:49,679 --> 00:21:53,200
from literally from the back of his back

549
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,799
of his car, from the boot of his car.

550
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,039
Um, obviously as a time changed, the

551
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:59,280
internet came in, decimated all that.

552
00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:01,039
Um, now lots of times artists, the one

553
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,559
of the t-shirt I'm wearing is is um a

554
00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:04,799
brand of one of the artists called Boy

555
00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:07,600
Better Know. Uh, they sell a lot of

556
00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:10,080
t-shirts. Um, they sell shows out

557
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,919
throughout throughout the world. Um,

558
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,200
Skeptor, uh, who is the brother of of

559
00:22:11,919 --> 00:22:14,400
the guy who has his t-shirt company,

560
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,799
he's just gone to number two in the

561
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,159
charts and won the Mercury Prize. Uh, he

562
00:22:16,799 --> 00:22:21,679
has endorsements with Levis, he has

563
00:22:18,159 --> 00:22:23,520
endorsements with Unilo. So, you you the

564
00:22:21,679 --> 00:22:25,200
top tier of artists, I would say, are

565
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,799
probably earning pretty pretty well. So,

566
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,080
they've becoming a bit mainstream then

567
00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:28,960
in their own way. Yeah. Well, they're

568
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,240
becoming mainstream, but they're doing

569
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,919
it on their own terms. You know, this

570
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,200
this the Skeptor isn't signed to a major

571
00:22:31,919 --> 00:22:35,039
record label. He's completely

572
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,600
independent. He's done all of this out

573
00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:39,440
of his home in Tottenham, you know, a

574
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,880
very modest, I don't know, two two bed

575
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,400
house, whatever in Tottenham. That's how

576
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:47,120
this has all emerged. And so, what's the

577
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:50,640
the politics uh of it? Uh if the Rock

578
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:53,600
Against Racism historian uh feels that

579
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:56,240
Grime is the air. Uh what does he mean

580
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,360
by that? Well, I think it's getting more

581
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,720
and more into the lyrics, but I think

582
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,919
just from what I was saying earlier, I

583
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,520
think it's very culturally it's very

584
00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:03,840
diverse. Grimes always been very

585
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,760
inclusive. So, it's done. So, it's been

586
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,520
it's been it's been progressive in that

587
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,840
sense in the way that it's just being so

588
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,600
anti-racist in practice rather than in

589
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,200
preach. And then you look into the music

590
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,480
and the lyrics and especially in in the

591
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,600
recent years, we're seeing much much

592
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,760
more of that. We're seeing much more

593
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,679
political progression from the MC's.

594
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,039
We're seeing them uh take it from beyond

595
00:23:19,679 --> 00:23:22,880
the lyrics. They're going on marches

596
00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:24,240
now. They're going on demonstrations uh

597
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,559
on their Instagram, on their platforms.

598
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,080
They're using that to to post really

599
00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:29,520
provocative, interesting political

600
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,400
statements. Uh whether that's about

601
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,640
Black Lives Matter or um uh the missing

602
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,840
women in Boca Harim. Uh you know, these

603
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,600
these artists are really using their

604
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,799
platform for change. It's not, you know,

605
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,000
again, it's not about these obvious

606
00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:42,080
stereotypes that we hear that they're

607
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,080
talking about money and women and chains

608
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,600
and nice cars. It's actually quite it's

609
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,240
actually quite different to that. Now,

610
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:51,200
punk never really made it in the United

611
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,400
States. Uh is Grime making it in the

612
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,480
United States? It would be great if it

613
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,919
did if it did crossover. Um, and lots of

614
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,240
lots of these big American stars like

615
00:23:55,919 --> 00:24:00,080
Kanye are taking a big interest. You

616
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,320
know, you have Fel who's a huge star on

617
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,679
on Skeptor's album. Um, and we're seeing

618
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,600
we're seeing much more crosspollination

619
00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:07,520
between the two cultures. It but it's it

620
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,559
now goes down to the American people.

621
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,080
You know, it's all very well that the

622
00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:11,039
the artists like it, but will the actual

623
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,080
I mean, will they understand the

624
00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:13,919
language? Will they understand the

625
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,120
references to East Enders, which you

626
00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:16,480
know, you hear a lot of in in the

627
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,760
lyrics. Um, will they understand these

628
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,919
references? And do they want to

629
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,480
understand them? Long live the East End

630
00:24:19,919 --> 00:24:24,799
of London and Glasgow. Yeah, of course.

631
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,840
Haty, it's fantastic talking to you.

632
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:27,120
Thank you so much for having the very

633
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,350
best of luck with the book. Thank you so

634
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,919
much. Thanks for joining us. Thank you.

635
00:24:30,350 --> 00:24:33,520
[Music]

636
00:24:31,919 --> 00:24:35,520
And now it's your turn to tell us what

637
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,679
you think through the portals of social

638
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,799
media. What's rattling gadry? So we

639
00:24:37,679 --> 00:24:42,840
asked what Britain's postrexit uh

640
00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:46,880
strategy is basically in trade and

641
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:50,640
industry and Euromman and activist says

642
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,880
we need article 50 to be activated ASAP

643
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,320
because negotiations are not possible

644
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,240
before it happens. Let us respect the

645
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:00,400
referendum. And Phil says the UK

646
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,799
government are navigating in the dark

647
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,600
without a compass.

648
00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:08,799
Well uh the compass is the decision that

649
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:11,840
was made. It has to be implemented.

650
00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:15,279
Anyone who seeks to block it will do so

651
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:18,320
at their peril. My own guess is that the

652
00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:20,799
EU will be easier to reach a deal with

653
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,960
than people currently imagine because

654
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:25,279
it's not in their interest to have a

655
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,200
trade war with Britain. Well, that's all

656
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,279
the tweets that we have for today, which

657
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,880
alas means that's the end of the show.

658
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:32,919
But you can stay in touch with us on

659
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,600
social media on Twitter

660
00:25:32,919 --> 00:25:38,159
RT_Sputnik or on Facebook Sputnik on

661
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,400
Russia Today. It's goodbye from me Gatri

662
00:25:38,159 --> 00:25:41,830
and from me George Galloway. It's been

663
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:45,180
marvelous.

664
00:25:41,830 --> 00:25:45,180
[Music]

665
00:25:48,210 --> 00:25:51,430
[Music]