1 00:00:01,990 --> 00:00:08,769 [Music] 2 00:00:14,519 --> 00:00:17,519 I 3 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,339 [Music] 4 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,920 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 5 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:44,039 with me George Galloway and me gatri he 6 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:46,680 stood as a Colossus in the Caribbean but 7 00:00:44,039 --> 00:00:49,760 like the tallest of trees he was viewed 8 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:52,520 from many Vantage points Latin America 9 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:55,199 Africa Asia throughout the global South 10 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,840 and from Europe itself the tallest trees 11 00:00:55,199 --> 00:01:00,359 catch the strongest Winds of course and 12 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:03,359 Fidel Castro who died last weekend at 13 00:01:00,359 --> 00:01:05,880 the age of 90 was weather beaten but 14 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:09,000 never bowed the Cuban Revolution of 15 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:11,880 which he was the Eternal leader endured 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:15,560 almost 60 years of economic Siege 17 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:18,400 subversion terrorism even Invasion and 18 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:21,320 10 US presidents have come and gone 19 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:24,479 since the first made the first attempt 20 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:27,240 to assassinate Fidel Castro he was a 21 00:01:24,479 --> 00:01:30,119 threat to the United States but not in 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:33,399 the way they pretended he was a threat 23 00:01:30,119 --> 00:01:36,079 of a good example prove positive that a 24 00:01:33,399 --> 00:01:37,960 better world is possible joining us to 25 00:01:36,079 --> 00:01:41,000 discuss the legacy of the late Fidel 26 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:44,799 Castro is the director of the Cuba 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:48,520 solidarity campaign Rob Miller Rob we 28 00:01:44,799 --> 00:01:52,960 both had the great privilege of meeting 29 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:56,200 Fidel many times uh what are your 30 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,960 lasting memories of his character well 31 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,600 for me it was a very sad moment when I 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:04,680 heard of his death because for me Fidel 33 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:06,960 uh it really is the epitent of uh or the 34 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,119 embodiment sorry of the Cuban Revolution 35 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,440 not just for the people of Cuba but for 36 00:02:09,119 --> 00:02:12,800 the people of Latin America and the 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:15,080 world Cuba signifies for me an 38 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,400 Illuminating Beacon of Hope that a 39 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,080 better world is possible there's a 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,560 different way of running our society 41 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,840 societies where people are not left 42 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,200 behind where people have opportunity to 43 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,840 uh achieve where healthc care is free 44 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:31,200 for everybody regardless of gender or 45 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,040 race or ability to P so it was a sad 46 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,680 moment for me and on a very personal 47 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,720 level because as you say I met Fidel a 48 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,239 couple of times he was an incredibly 49 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,200 impressive man but I think it's his 50 00:02:39,239 --> 00:02:44,800 legacy that is the impression we left 51 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:48,519 with sure the legacy is there and no one 52 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:51,159 can uh R it out but as a character I 53 00:02:48,519 --> 00:02:53,760 mean for me he was the greatest man I 54 00:02:51,159 --> 00:02:58,560 ever met by a country 55 00:02:53,760 --> 00:03:01,000 mile because he wasn't just a font of 56 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,840 wisdom and his historical knowledge 57 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:08,440 after all he'd seen all and seen them 58 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:11,159 all but he was also extraordinarily 59 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,200 inquisitive he wanted to know things 60 00:03:11,159 --> 00:03:14,879 from 61 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:18,760 you as well as tell you things that he 62 00:03:14,879 --> 00:03:21,560 knew absolutely I mean I felt that he 63 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,400 wanted to understand my life in the few 64 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:26,239 minutes I was with him because he wanted 65 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:28,200 to know how I a young man from Britain 66 00:03:26,239 --> 00:03:29,799 had ended up in Cuba what was my 67 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,560 motivation what was I going to do with 68 00:03:29,799 --> 00:03:33,360 you were a teenager when you first met I 69 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,959 was just 15 when I first met him on a on 70 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,080 a world Youth Festival it was a a 71 00:03:34,959 --> 00:03:38,920 wonderful moment and it really molded my 72 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,959 life really moving forward from and 73 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,319 although you're the only one of that 74 00:03:40,959 --> 00:03:45,640 delegation almost who's remained 75 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:48,120 faithful there were some other now 76 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,159 apostates who met Fidel at the same time 77 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,480 as you there were some uh Incredible 78 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:52,959 characters on the delegation whether 79 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,760 they met Fidel they weren't with me at 80 00:03:52,959 --> 00:03:56,920 the time I did but certainly Peter 81 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,480 mandelson was one of the delegates there 82 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,599 as the head I think of the British youth 83 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,879 council at the time Trevor Phillips was 84 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:05,239 on the delegation as was Charles Clark 85 00:04:02,879 --> 00:04:06,840 The Who later became Home Secretary so 86 00:04:05,239 --> 00:04:11,560 it was I must go and look for their 87 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:14,200 tributes to the uh to the leader he had 88 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,959 I spent many many hours with him because 89 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:20,000 if you were lucky enough to get the 90 00:04:15,959 --> 00:04:22,400 summons to come to the midnight plus uh 91 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,720 meetings with Fidel you could be sure 92 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:29,759 they were going to last a long time uh 93 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:32,360 and he'd have Maps out and charts out 94 00:04:29,759 --> 00:04:34,759 and he'd ask you things that I was 95 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,880 embarrassed I was unable to answer for 96 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:39,400 example he asked me what's the total 97 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,919 production of oil in the North Sea and I 98 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:44,400 couldn't have told you to the nearest 99 00:04:41,919 --> 00:04:46,520 ocean uh and what was the steel 100 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,960 production in Britain and so on he was 101 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,720 extremely interested in what the 102 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,800 politics were the economics were in all 103 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:57,360 the countries I never knew someone with 104 00:04:53,800 --> 00:05:00,320 such a global grasp you know given that 105 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:04,639 Cuba was a poor country and island in 106 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:06,840 the Caribbean he knew more about Germany 107 00:05:04,639 --> 00:05:09,000 than German politician I think uh the 108 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:10,800 Western impression and the media 109 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,479 impression given nor Fidel is is this 110 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,759 romantic this Vision this image but he 111 00:05:13,479 --> 00:05:17,440 was a very practical man his his his 112 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:19,000 life was about practicalities of 113 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,840 bettering the world of bettering his 114 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,400 people and it's true when he spoke for 115 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:25,000 so many hours he told the Cuban people 116 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,880 about the different production problems 117 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,160 in the different provinces and he had 118 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,080 the mini of information there which 119 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,560 could EXP explain to the Cuban people 120 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,479 about the process of building and 121 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,880 developing their society and that was 122 00:05:34,479 --> 00:05:39,080 incredibly important to him because I 123 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,880 think for the Cuban people going through 124 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,560 such a tough time over so many years it 125 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,680 was important that it was an open and 126 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,400 transparent Revolution that everybody 127 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,880 could understand exactly what was going 128 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,199 right what was going wrong and what role 129 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,479 everybody in society had to play to take 130 00:05:52,199 --> 00:05:56,160 the society forward so he was incredibly 131 00:05:54,479 --> 00:05:58,000 impressive but then I think the 132 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,160 leadership in Cuba has been an 133 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,479 impressive leadership because to survive 134 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:05,759 as you in your introduction said 10 US 135 00:06:02,479 --> 00:06:08,639 presidents Each of which have led a 136 00:06:05,759 --> 00:06:10,759 ferocious assault on that country from 137 00:06:08,639 --> 00:06:13,360 aggression from violence assassination 138 00:06:10,759 --> 00:06:15,599 attempts terrorism a media propaganda 139 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,680 war against the Ireland for that country 140 00:06:15,599 --> 00:06:21,639 to survive and still be working towards 141 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,280 a better world in with a choice that 142 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:25,080 they make and only the Cuban people have 143 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:28,319 made to follow that path the scenes that 144 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:30,120 we're seeing in Havana and we will see 145 00:06:28,319 --> 00:06:32,080 if you look closely on our 146 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,720 absolutely when you're allowed to see 147 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:37,759 them it is literally the population of 148 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,880 Cuba are out celebrating the man but 149 00:06:37,759 --> 00:06:42,120 also mourning his death but looking 150 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,319 forward to what they can still achieve 151 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,400 as a country there's a real pride in 152 00:06:44,319 --> 00:06:49,120 Fidel but that's because there's a pride 153 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:51,759 in Cuba their achievements all of the 154 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,120 Cuban people together as one standing up 155 00:06:51,759 --> 00:06:57,759 proud and 156 00:06:53,120 --> 00:07:00,319 firm for me um as a Believer uh there's 157 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:03,240 there has been Divine uh intervention 158 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:05,680 from the beginning you'll recall and 159 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:11,560 people can look up it's available on 160 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:14,440 YouTube uh Fidel's address in 1959 on 161 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:18,800 the Triumph of the revolution in a crowd 162 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:23,560 of tens of thousands a white dove 163 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:25,840 descends and on the potential of 100,000 164 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:29,160 shoulders it could have landed on it 165 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,639 landed on Fidel's and I I just knew that 166 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:35,440 he was was going to go all the way uh 167 00:07:31,639 --> 00:07:39,440 thereafter but miracles do happen one of 168 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:41,720 the greatest is Operation Miracle the 169 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:44,280 cban achievements are too long for this 170 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:47,240 program but tell the viewers about 171 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:49,680 operation Miracle well it's a a program 172 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,080 essentially to treat people across the 173 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,680 global South particularly in Latin 174 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,520 America with cataracts and it gives 175 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,639 restores their vision and I myself have 176 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,639 been to the Finley Hospital in Nana and 177 00:07:57,639 --> 00:08:02,800 you see people from Bolivia from 178 00:07:59,639 --> 00:08:04,639 Guatemala from Ecuador walking in and 179 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,919 half an hour an hour later walking in 180 00:08:04,639 --> 00:08:09,680 blind walking out amazing can see and 181 00:08:07,919 --> 00:08:11,800 that operation has now treated I think 182 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,360 it's around 2 million people and someone 183 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,120 said to me you know if you're a doctor 184 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,520 or you're a scientist and you lose your 185 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,560 sight having that restored can enable 186 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,080 you to teach again can enable you to 187 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,599 carry on with your research so it's a 188 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,759 KnockOn of helping people realize their 189 00:08:23,599 --> 00:08:27,520 own potential but also to realize the 190 00:08:25,759 --> 00:08:29,120 potential of their people because the 191 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,159 Latin Latin America Cuba and Latin 192 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,519 America have over the last 10 or 15 193 00:08:31,159 --> 00:08:35,320 years began to realize their potential 194 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:37,800 people are beginning to take control of 195 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,200 their resources their societies for the 196 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,760 benefits of their people so Health Care 197 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,880 restoration of site is part of that 198 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,760 program and it's an incredible 199 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,920 achievement for the Cuban doctors to 200 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,120 have led that process now aided of 201 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:52,080 course by Venezuela Ecuador Bolivia and 202 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:54,800 so on I uh I've been quite surprised I 203 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:58,680 don't know if you were by the intensity 204 00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:01,560 of the ideological aggression over Cuba 205 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:04,440 and Fidel in the British media I 206 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:07,640 expected it in the Miami heral but I 207 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:11,600 didn't quite expect the level of really 208 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:15,200 aggressive lying uh in much of the 209 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:18,000 British media what do you think uh is 210 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,680 the reason for that it has been a shock 211 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:24,600 to be honest because you've had world 212 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:27,079 leaders uh respecting Fidel Obama kofan 213 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,800 people like maradon the footballer you 214 00:09:27,079 --> 00:09:32,079 name it the Russians Chinese yet our 215 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,200 media is still following this vicious 216 00:09:32,079 --> 00:09:36,120 aggressive path the way I look at it is 217 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:40,000 this you've had nearly 60 years of 218 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:42,079 aggression paid for and orchestrated by 219 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:45,399 the United States government there's an 220 00:09:42,079 --> 00:09:48,399 awful lot of dollars $30 million spent 221 00:09:45,399 --> 00:09:51,000 last year alone on promoting uh regime 222 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:52,959 change in Cuba with programs inside Cuba 223 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,440 and outside of Cuba and I honestly 224 00:09:52,959 --> 00:09:57,680 believe that that promotion that 225 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,480 expenditure has worked its way into the 226 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:02,360 media in the United States but beyond 227 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,800 and I think people have to really 228 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:07,920 question uh their media yet again as to 229 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:11,000 say look at the facts why is it that our 230 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:14,360 media is still complicit and part of 231 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:17,200 this outrageous demonization of 11 232 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,399 million Cubans in the Caribbean who are 233 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,279 really just trying to exercise their 234 00:10:19,399 --> 00:10:23,680 right to choose and develop their 235 00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:27,399 society how they want to develop it it's 236 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:29,880 a real damn damn damning uh thing uh 237 00:10:27,399 --> 00:10:32,000 report on our media to be frank it is uh 238 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,800 uh and it's been worse in Britain as far 239 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:38,160 as I can see uh than anywhere else uh in 240 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:43,480 the world to the extent that you have 241 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:46,519 people lying about torture in Cuba when 242 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,839 any fool North never mind a journalist a 243 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:52,360 highly paid and trained journalist that 244 00:10:48,839 --> 00:10:55,800 the only torture there is in Cuba is in 245 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:58,600 the American hellhole called Guantanamo 246 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:01,000 Bay tell us about Guantanamo Bay what 247 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,880 what is going to happen to that well the 248 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:06,920 Cuban people want their land back 249 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:09,639 Guantanamo Bay is the only uh US base in 250 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,760 an occupied uh land where the people of 251 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:13,120 that country the government of that 252 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,680 country don't actually want it it has to 253 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,920 be removed it is illegal but the US 254 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:18,760 government have made it clear that in 255 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,560 the negotiations that they're carrying 256 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,440 out under the Obama Administration with 257 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:24,880 the Cuban government that the issue of 258 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,320 guantan Guantanamo Bay is not on the 259 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,320 table the fact that they run a prison 260 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,760 camp a torture Camp there is adding in 261 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:35,200 insult to injury and the base really has 262 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:38,760 to go Steady As She Goes uh in Cuba 263 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:42,800 there'll be no uh possibility of 264 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:45,480 counterrevolution in Cuba uh you know 265 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:49,120 that and I know that does the enemy know 266 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:51,920 it I think the I think the Obama 267 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:54,279 Administration have realized that their 268 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,760 policy has failed they have said so much 269 00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:59,680 that they are the isolated party and 270 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:02,120 their policy has failed to isolate Cuba 271 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:05,240 Trump we shall have to wait and see but 272 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:08,720 I hope that sensible people will realize 273 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,880 that trade and exchange is he'll uh well 274 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,839 he'll try and open a Trump Tower in 275 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:16,279 Havana trust me on that Rob Miller thank 276 00:12:13,839 --> 00:12:18,720 you very much indeed celebrating Fidel 277 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:21,120 Castro on the Sputnik today coming up 278 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,279 next his father was a fascist at least 279 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,480 according to the title of his new book 280 00:12:23,279 --> 00:12:28,480 it's Francis Becket up next don't miss 281 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,480 it 282 00:12:28,570 --> 00:12:33,800 [Music] 283 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,880 welcome back to Sputnik fascism was 284 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:39,920 never so strong in Britain as in the 285 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:42,760 1930s sir Oswald Mosley a labor 286 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:45,920 aristocratic swordsman broke from the 287 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:49,480 party and formed a new one which morphed 288 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:52,519 into the fully fledged British Union of 289 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,959 fascists the bf's original hero and 290 00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:57,839 financial Patron was musolini with a bit 291 00:12:54,959 --> 00:13:00,279 of help from Lord rir whose family still 292 00:12:57,839 --> 00:13:03,120 own the Daily Mail to day and then owned 293 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:05,800 the Daily Mirror too in time their hero 294 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:08,240 became Adolf Hitler himself our old 295 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,399 friend Francis Becket a man of the left 296 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,320 himself has long had to live with the 297 00:13:10,399 --> 00:13:15,360 fact that his father was one of Mosley's 298 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,360 top left tenants and one of Britain's 299 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:22,040 leading fascists he joins us now to 300 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:24,480 discuss his latest book on the matter a 301 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:27,560 fascist in the family Francis it's 302 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,360 another fantastic piece of work from 303 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:32,160 your long line You're such such a 304 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:35,199 prodigious and Brilliant writer but this 305 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:38,000 must have been a kind of special book to 306 00:13:35,199 --> 00:13:40,279 feel you had to write why did you feel 307 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,920 you had to write it oh this is this is 308 00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:43,560 the book that's been sitting on my 309 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,880 shoulder all my life demanding to be 310 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:48,839 written really and I suppose the uh 311 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,040 there were two reasons my father started 312 00:13:48,839 --> 00:13:53,279 out as a socialist after the first World 313 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,839 War uh he joined the labor party became 314 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:58,000 a labor Member of Parliament uh he moved 315 00:13:55,839 --> 00:14:00,360 to the left joined the independent labor 316 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,079 party which was the the the left wing of 317 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,399 the party what you know the momentum of 318 00:14:03,079 --> 00:14:06,920 its day well I don't know well you and I 319 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:10,399 might have called it the benites perhaps 320 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:12,759 I don't know um and gradually as he 321 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:14,880 became more and more frustrated by the 322 00:14:12,759 --> 00:14:17,160 inability of Labor to change the world 323 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:20,199 he moved further to the left he created 324 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,519 a number of parliamentary scenes he took 325 00:14:20,199 --> 00:14:24,199 the mace in 1930 out of the House of 326 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:26,240 Commons and rushed towards the 327 00:14:24,199 --> 00:14:28,600 gentleman's lavatory with the intention 328 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,000 of shoving it head down it was prevented 329 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:34,360 by the police from actually carrying 330 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:37,320 this out um and eventually he was he was 331 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:39,959 drummed out of Parliament and that was 332 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:42,199 when his life took a a dreadful turn he 333 00:14:39,959 --> 00:14:45,839 joined the British Union of fion he 334 00:14:42,199 --> 00:14:48,040 joined Mosley with the idea so he said 335 00:14:45,839 --> 00:14:50,720 at the time and I think probably 336 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:53,399 believed that he was really carrying on 337 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:57,800 his socialist activity in another guys 338 00:14:53,399 --> 00:15:01,199 but of course it soon morphed into 339 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:03,519 straight uh straight racism and a 340 00:15:01,199 --> 00:15:06,079 thoroughly reactionary General view of 341 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:07,560 the world he he he would spent the 342 00:15:06,079 --> 00:15:10,160 second world war most of the second 343 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,600 world war in prison under the wartime 344 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,680 regulation 18b which allowed the Home 345 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:18,040 Secretary to uh to in turn anybody who 346 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,199 was considered to be a danger to the war 347 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:24,040 effort under which Oswell Mosley and 348 00:15:20,199 --> 00:15:25,800 others uh were also intered and um after 349 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,160 the war he was really pretty well 350 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,199 unemployable and I thought it was a I 351 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,040 thought it was a strange life that ought 352 00:15:30,199 --> 00:15:35,000 to be 353 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:36,759 told and that had been on my mind really 354 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,920 because he talked fairly freely of I was 355 00:15:36,759 --> 00:15:43,279 going to ask you about did he explain to 356 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:46,600 you the turn that he had made did he 357 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:49,000 ever recant it did he uh have any 358 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,000 regrets about it whether he had regrets 359 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,160 I have no idea he wasn't a man who would 360 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:57,600 like to express he I think he was a man 361 00:15:54,160 --> 00:16:00,360 who for whom expressing regret would 362 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,639 have felt like weakness us so if he felt 363 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,560 regret he certainly never said so to me 364 00:16:02,639 --> 00:16:07,360 but he talked a lot about his life but 365 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:10,160 he talked principally to me about his 366 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:13,920 old parliamentary friends about clakley 367 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:16,600 whom he had been uh whose agent he had 368 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:19,040 been before he became a Mur parat Jimmy 369 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,319 Maxton who uh you will know all about 370 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,360 George uh the the the sort of C side 371 00:16:21,319 --> 00:16:25,560 leader the Clyde side leader who to whom 372 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,440 he was very close when he was the 373 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,120 Socialist leader the the leader of the 374 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,880 ILP at the end of the 19 1920s and in 375 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:35,480 the 1930s to whom he was very personally 376 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:38,120 close in how did they respond then to 377 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:41,800 his convers he became a non person he 378 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:45,800 became he became really as he as he 379 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:48,680 became more and more extreme yeah um his 380 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:51,800 his old friends one by one dropped out 381 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:54,240 sometimes uh initially out of sheer 382 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,160 careerism but later on because he what 383 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:59,839 he was saying was real what he started 384 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:01,600 to say what he was saying by 1938 39 40 385 00:16:59,839 --> 00:17:04,480 were things that you really couldn't be 386 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:08,160 Associated were things that I mean he 387 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:11,240 had started by about the middle of the 388 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,319 30s he had started to talk about Jews in 389 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,400 a way that you just couldn't be 390 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:17,799 Associated you couldn't you you didn't 391 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:21,160 want to know somebody would speak in 392 00:17:17,799 --> 00:17:25,120 that way we learn from the book and I 393 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,559 thought I knew this story uh that he was 394 00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:27,880 himself Jewish it's the most 395 00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:31,160 extraordinary thing that I never knew 396 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,440 when I was a child um that this was his 397 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,520 most closely guarded secret and I was 398 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,520 just coming on to that as the other 399 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,880 reason why I had to write this book this 400 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,280 was the most closely guarded secret of 401 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,240 his life I never knew it in his lifetime 402 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,039 I didn't know it until decades after 403 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,000 after he died his mother did my mother 404 00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:52,679 didn't tell me I don't even know whether 405 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,240 she knew or not um I think well I I 406 00:17:52,679 --> 00:17:57,960 can't tell whether she would she would 407 00:17:54,240 --> 00:18:01,919 have known um but in fact his mother 408 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:03,840 whom he was devoted to was Jewish uh her 409 00:18:01,919 --> 00:18:06,799 her name I had always been told that her 410 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:09,600 name was Dorothy sammon I now know that 411 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:11,440 her name was actually Eva Solomon and 412 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:15,720 that she was of a a 413 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:19,120 family a fairly typically 19 19th 414 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:22,360 century uh Jewish Family she had been 415 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:25,200 declared dead by her Orthodox relatives 416 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:29,880 for marrying out for marrying out of the 417 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:32,640 faith and out of out of Judaism and um 418 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:35,320 and as far as I know never spoke to any 419 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:39,240 of them again from then till till the 420 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:40,159 time of her death uh but what is clear 421 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:45,039 to 422 00:18:40,159 --> 00:18:49,120 me is that she knew she must have known 423 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:51,000 what fascism was because when he he 424 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,960 didn't he had nothing to do with Mosley 425 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,480 nothing to do with the beginning of the 426 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,919 British Union of fascists which was just 427 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,679 after the fall of the Ramsey McDonald 428 00:18:57,919 --> 00:19:02,640 government in 19 31 he had nothing to do 429 00:19:00,679 --> 00:19:05,360 with it then one or two labor MPS did go 430 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,840 over to it others were tempted even nban 431 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:10,440 was 432 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:13,039 tempted but he wasn't one of them he 433 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:17,919 didn't take any interest in Mosley until 434 00:19:13,039 --> 00:19:22,120 1933 his mother died in 1932 uh and I 435 00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:24,919 think I think that that that was the key 436 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:27,480 to it that that his mother whom whom he 437 00:19:24,919 --> 00:19:29,480 had been devoted to would have been 438 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,679 horrified even though she she had been 439 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:34,360 declared dead she would have been 440 00:19:31,679 --> 00:19:36,400 horrified you think the other fascists 441 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,280 knew that's an interesting question 442 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,280 because some of them certainly did know 443 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:43,240 some of them knew something was up when 444 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:47,000 he was um when he was interned during 445 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:51,039 the war and I only learned this from uh 446 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:53,440 a discussion from among uh the the sort 447 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:56,080 of remnants of the 448 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,679 internees a rumor ran around the 449 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,960 internment camp among all the other 450 00:19:57,679 --> 00:20:03,480 fascists that his mother had had been a 451 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:06,640 Jew and he denied it absolutely 452 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:09,760 ferociously so ferociously and with such 453 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:13,159 conviction that the rumor went away they 454 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:16,720 all stopped saying it when I first 455 00:20:13,159 --> 00:20:19,360 started uh started writing the book I 456 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,360 talked to a Jewish academic called David 457 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:24,039 Englander who knew quite a lot about my 458 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:27,559 father and I told him this and he said 459 00:20:24,039 --> 00:20:29,679 well that's very interesting because um 460 00:20:27,559 --> 00:20:32,520 my parent parents who were brought up in 461 00:20:29,679 --> 00:20:34,000 the East End uh they always said that 462 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,240 the mother of one of the leading 463 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,520 fascists but they didn't know which one 464 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,600 was Jewish so the story was about the 465 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,320 East End in one way or another in a way 466 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,159 that I can't now quite put my fingers on 467 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,240 what would have happened Francis if they 468 00:20:46,159 --> 00:20:53,000 had triumphed God 469 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:55,480 forbid uh if they had come to power in 470 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:58,159 Britain what would there have been 471 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:01,280 anything distinctively British about 472 00:20:58,159 --> 00:21:03,400 their fascism as opposed to musini and 473 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,240 Hitler I don't think there would have 474 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,799 been particularly it's a very difficult 475 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,360 question to answer because they were so 476 00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:12,720 far from ever getting anywhere um there 477 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:14,600 was never there was never a moment when 478 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,840 it looked as though Mosley might might 479 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:19,679 Triumph in Britain it was from from 480 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:23,480 about 1932 when there was an initial 481 00:21:19,679 --> 00:21:25,520 sort of uh amount of publicity um it 482 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,799 looked like downhill all the way so it's 483 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,559 very difficult to say what a Mosley 484 00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:31,440 government would have looked like but 485 00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:34,200 what you can say is that it would not 486 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,480 have been run according to a set of 487 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:39,760 principles because that's not the way of 488 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:42,679 fascism the way of fascism is is is that 489 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:44,679 you have to subordinate your ideas and 490 00:21:42,679 --> 00:21:48,200 your intellect to those of the 491 00:21:44,679 --> 00:21:50,440 charismatic leader um so that um you 492 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,960 know it would not really matter what 493 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:57,440 policies a Hitler likes to produce in 494 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,120 fact uh detail detail policymaking was 495 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,240 not really what 496 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:03,840 Hitler did was not really what musolini 497 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:06,919 did the idea is that everybody 498 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:09,600 subordinates their thinking and and the 499 00:22:06,919 --> 00:22:12,440 most important thing the most indicative 500 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,039 thing that Mosley ever said when he he 501 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,880 had left the labor party initially he 502 00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:17,480 started something called the new party 503 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,520 which morphed into the British Union of 504 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,000 fascist and when it became the British 505 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,360 Union of fascist he said I am done with 506 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:28,559 those who think henceforth I shall go 507 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:30,960 with those who feel and and that's what 508 00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:33,640 what it's about that you subcontract 509 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:37,799 your thinking the everybody else 510 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:41,440 subcontracts their thinking to the Le 511 00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:45,919 again God forbid and thanks to the Red 512 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:48,240 Army and and others uh it never did but 513 00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:50,480 if the fascists had won the war Mosley 514 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,600 would have presumably been released from 515 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:56,840 the interment camp and put into power as 516 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,159 the goter in Britain I don't know what 517 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,960 would have happened and I'm not sure 518 00:22:58,159 --> 00:23:01,600 that that is what would have happened 519 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:04,520 it's not what happened in France after 520 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:08,000 all um Hitler didn't choose de and Doro 521 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:11,640 the fascist leaders he chose the uh the 522 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:14,240 right of the old order Pier Laval and uh 523 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:18,159 the the old military hero Marshall pan 524 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:20,120 to to uh to to run the to run what 525 00:23:18,159 --> 00:23:22,960 remained of the French government it 526 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:25,360 didn't seem to be Hitler's way to to go 527 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,480 for the old fascist leader but to try to 528 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:29,520 to try to draw in as much as he could so 529 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:33,520 if he could have found 530 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:36,120 a a leader from the old parties who who 531 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,520 would have taken it on I think he would 532 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:40,200 have preferred it that way of course the 533 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,200 other thing to say about if Hitler had 534 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,320 won is this that by then of course my 535 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:47,480 father and oswal Mosley had fallen out 536 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:50,960 ferociously they were really at dagger's 537 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:53,480 drawn uh my father claimed that in in in 538 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,320 one interview with the uh with a 539 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:59,720 committee that was set up to discuss 540 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:03,279 internment that he was on Mosley's to be 541 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:05,880 short list um probably was all I can say 542 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:08,400 about it is that it's very lucky for 543 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,120 both of them that the fascist State they 544 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,120 dreamed of never came into existence 545 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:15,000 because one of them would not have lived 546 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:18,080 to enjoy it it is a fantastic book I 547 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,480 must say and uh I hope it's a load off 548 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,520 your shoulders it is George to have 549 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,850 written it Francis Becket thanks for 550 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,440 joining us on the 551 00:24:24,850 --> 00:24:28,640 [Music] 552 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,640 Sputnik and now it's your turn to tell 553 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,000 us what you think through the portals of 554 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:36,000 social media what's ratling gri our 555 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:39,120 social media this week is um dedicated 556 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,520 to El commandante Fidel Castro of course 557 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:43,840 an Osman Dean says a man who showed the 558 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,559 world there is another way of organizing 559 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:50,279 society and that us imperialism can be 560 00:24:46,559 --> 00:24:53,320 beaten his legacy lives on and Paco says 561 00:24:50,279 --> 00:24:55,919 Fidel Castro and LJ show that it is not 562 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,760 only your basic human right to fight the 563 00:24:55,919 --> 00:25:02,760 injustices that enslaves us but your 564 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:05,640 duty well A A A Mighty Oak has fallen in 565 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:09,399 the forest that's for sure we will not 566 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:12,039 look upon his likes again no for me he's 567 00:25:09,399 --> 00:25:14,880 one of the greatest men That Ever Walked 568 00:25:12,039 --> 00:25:18,520 the Earth he's one of the greatest 569 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:20,399 figures of the 20th century and who 570 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,399 lasted into the 571 00:25:20,399 --> 00:25:23,399 21st 572 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,559 commandante and that's all the tweets 573 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:31,039 that we have for this week which all 574 00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:32,480 means that's the end of the show but you 575 00:25:31,039 --> 00:25:35,520 can stay in touch with us on social 576 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,840 media Twitter rtor Sputnik or on 577 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,840 Facebook sputnic on Russia Today is 578 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:44,760 goodbye from me gatri and from me George 579 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,760 Galloway it's been marvelous 580 00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:56,180 [Music]