1 00:00:32,070 --> 00:00:37,330 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 2 00:00:34,750 --> 00:00:40,150 with me George Galloway and me gayathri 3 00:00:37,330 --> 00:00:42,640 if Britain had a legion of honor like 4 00:00:40,150 --> 00:00:45,070 France our first guest would be in the 5 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,989 front ranks of it instead we've had to 6 00:00:45,070 --> 00:00:49,330 make him a lot which is a pretty poor 7 00:00:46,989 --> 00:00:51,580 substitute I can tell you he has 8 00:00:49,330 --> 00:00:53,680 literally risen from homelessness in the 9 00:00:51,580 --> 00:00:56,290 streets to being the Baron birth of 10 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:59,370 nothing hill in between he founded the 11 00:00:56,290 --> 00:01:03,670 big issue which has just published its 12 00:00:59,370 --> 00:01:07,420 1230 fifth issue selling 250 million 13 00:01:03,670 --> 00:01:09,940 copies over 25 years he speaks out with 14 00:01:07,420 --> 00:01:12,670 no fear or favour on all kinds of issues 15 00:01:09,940 --> 00:01:15,910 but homelessness and poverty remains his 16 00:01:12,670 --> 00:01:19,540 number one concern he is Lord John BIRT 17 00:01:15,910 --> 00:01:22,000 MBE Lord burn thanks for joining us on 18 00:01:19,540 --> 00:01:25,660 these but Nick I could speak to you all 19 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:30,399 day but we've only got 11 and a half 20 00:01:25,660 --> 00:01:34,360 minutes so you learned to read and write 21 00:01:30,399 --> 00:01:36,729 in a boy's prison you are homeless 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:39,640 several times you were brought up by 23 00:01:36,729 --> 00:01:42,369 nuns and you ended up in the House of 24 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:45,700 Lords it's quite a Christmas story 25 00:01:42,369 --> 00:01:49,869 actually but what are the mean morals 26 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:53,590 you draw from that story well I think 27 00:01:49,869 --> 00:01:57,340 the interesting thing for me is that I 28 00:01:53,590 --> 00:01:59,380 did everything conceivably wrong and my 29 00:01:57,340 --> 00:02:02,979 parents did everything conceivably wrong 30 00:01:59,380 --> 00:02:06,220 but occasionally I would run into people 31 00:02:02,979 --> 00:02:07,899 who helped to change my life the fact 32 00:02:06,220 --> 00:02:11,590 that I was a Catholic the fact that I 33 00:02:07,899 --> 00:02:14,290 believed in Jesus was a great Savior the 34 00:02:11,590 --> 00:02:16,569 fact that i became a marxist in my early 35 00:02:14,290 --> 00:02:19,630 20s and i got rid of all my 36 00:02:16,569 --> 00:02:22,840 anti-semitism and auntie you know racism 37 00:02:19,630 --> 00:02:25,660 which i had inherited from my London 38 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:29,739 Irish background the fact that I was 39 00:02:25,660 --> 00:02:32,050 always a strong believer in the fact 40 00:02:29,739 --> 00:02:34,989 that human beings could do better 41 00:02:32,050 --> 00:02:37,360 because I was gradually morphing my way 42 00:02:34,989 --> 00:02:40,300 out of the underclass the criminal 43 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:42,550 classes and as I was going along I was 44 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:44,030 meeting people who were worth knowing 45 00:02:42,550 --> 00:02:47,930 and 46 00:02:44,030 --> 00:02:51,740 so I I'm really a person who owes it all 47 00:02:47,930 --> 00:02:54,319 to luck in fact my autobiography I 48 00:02:51,740 --> 00:02:56,420 wanted to call it I Bonaparte this is 49 00:02:54,319 --> 00:03:00,410 for penguin because I have delusions of 50 00:02:56,420 --> 00:03:02,569 grandeur and I still do ah but they 51 00:03:00,410 --> 00:03:04,880 wouldn't let me do it in case in case of 52 00:03:02,569 --> 00:03:07,370 Bonaparte has got the book it wrong and 53 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:10,430 you know and all that stuff so I call it 54 00:03:07,370 --> 00:03:13,100 some luck and I've had incredible luck I 55 00:03:10,430 --> 00:03:15,080 mean you imagine at the age of 12 call 56 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:17,269 it luck I call it divine intervention 57 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,720 myself yeah well divine intervention 58 00:03:17,269 --> 00:03:23,239 which is sometimes called looked when I 59 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,850 was 21 I was hiding from the old bill in 60 00:03:23,239 --> 00:03:29,330 edinburgh and i met this ugly big no 61 00:03:25,850 --> 00:03:30,769 Scotsman call Gordon Roddick Who am and 62 00:03:29,330 --> 00:03:32,510 I nearly had a fight because i had a 63 00:03:30,769 --> 00:03:35,450 nose like there any other nope like that 64 00:03:32,510 --> 00:03:37,519 and we became mates and then I didn't 65 00:03:35,450 --> 00:03:40,040 see him for 20 years and he'd morphed 66 00:03:37,519 --> 00:03:41,750 into a multi-millionaire he had become 67 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,120 the founder of the body shop with his 68 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:45,650 wife and its erotic and I thought I 69 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,840 bless myself i thought god I've got to 70 00:03:45,650 --> 00:03:52,010 go and see him and we became mates again 71 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:55,400 he was in New York in 1990 met some guy 72 00:03:52,010 --> 00:03:57,620 selling a street paper and the guy out 73 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:00,040 so Gordon such an why you selling it he 74 00:03:57,620 --> 00:04:02,930 says well I make money I come from 75 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:05,360 Brownsville you don't get out of there 76 00:04:02,930 --> 00:04:08,000 unless you know web Tyson comes from 77 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,459 I've been in and out the penitentiary 78 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,950 system for most of my life I now want to 79 00:04:10,459 --> 00:04:14,359 go I want to see my children so he was 80 00:04:12,950 --> 00:04:16,640 selling the street paper called Street 81 00:04:14,359 --> 00:04:19,729 news which was brilliant Gordon comes 82 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:24,169 back to the UK tries to get the homeless 83 00:04:19,729 --> 00:04:27,460 organizations to to create a three paper 84 00:04:24,169 --> 00:04:27,460 but the problem with them 85 00:04:31,449 --> 00:04:34,930 but that they were already doing that 86 00:04:33,309 --> 00:04:37,300 and doing that and robbing your granny 87 00:04:34,930 --> 00:04:39,430 to do it never occurred to them so 88 00:04:37,300 --> 00:04:41,469 eventually asked me to do it as an 89 00:04:39,430 --> 00:04:43,360 ex-offender and a rough sleeper as a 90 00:04:41,469 --> 00:04:45,969 beggar one of Britain's best burgers I 91 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:49,240 could I could win a prize for that I'm 92 00:04:45,969 --> 00:04:52,740 all the sorts of stuff so that's luck on 93 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:56,620 divine intervention that is brilliant 94 00:04:52,740 --> 00:04:59,339 making the most of my big broken nose 95 00:04:56,620 --> 00:05:03,249 his big broken nose and us becoming 96 00:04:59,339 --> 00:05:05,229 inseparable friends and me because my 97 00:05:03,249 --> 00:05:08,080 mother had me begging for money as a 98 00:05:05,229 --> 00:05:10,240 child on poor Bella road to get money 99 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,580 for her cigarettes I never had any 100 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:15,069 problem of asking people for money I'm 101 00:05:12,580 --> 00:05:17,020 great if I meet some there's no way I've 102 00:05:15,069 --> 00:05:18,789 been sleeping in the streets now because 103 00:05:17,020 --> 00:05:22,210 I'd be poncing off somebody and getting 104 00:05:18,789 --> 00:05:24,580 some money and I was really determined 105 00:05:22,210 --> 00:05:27,189 to get a big chunk of this guy's money 106 00:05:24,580 --> 00:05:29,849 to create the big issue and to make it 107 00:05:27,189 --> 00:05:32,949 work for the most disenfranchised people 108 00:05:29,849 --> 00:05:35,169 operating in Britain now you're a parent 109 00:05:32,949 --> 00:05:37,870 and you're sitting amongst all these 110 00:05:35,169 --> 00:05:41,259 other barons traditionally of course 111 00:05:37,870 --> 00:05:42,999 these people became balanced by by 112 00:05:41,259 --> 00:05:46,330 cutting other people's throats and and 113 00:05:42,999 --> 00:05:49,180 stealing off them do you feel that 114 00:05:46,330 --> 00:05:53,139 you're actually one of the few noble 115 00:05:49,180 --> 00:05:56,469 people in dynasty well you see all right 116 00:05:53,139 --> 00:05:59,889 in defense I couldn't offer any defense 117 00:05:56,469 --> 00:06:01,689 without the comments I couldn't but I 118 00:05:59,889 --> 00:06:03,849 can offer defense for the House of Lords 119 00:06:01,689 --> 00:06:07,680 because in spite of the fact there are 120 00:06:03,849 --> 00:06:07,680 some people time servers and 121 00:06:09,870 --> 00:06:14,700 who had started in engineering and 122 00:06:13,050 --> 00:06:18,600 worked as he became the professor of 123 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:22,230 engineering at our Cambridge University 124 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:24,660 I another person was a nurse you come 125 00:06:22,230 --> 00:06:27,330 from a council flat who became a head 126 00:06:24,660 --> 00:06:30,210 nurse who ended up running a health 127 00:06:27,330 --> 00:06:32,580 school in these in the West End in the 128 00:06:30,210 --> 00:06:35,700 west of the country I came in with 129 00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:38,730 people who like me as a cross bencher 130 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:41,130 not appointed by any political party who 131 00:06:38,730 --> 00:06:46,020 came in as experts because the problem 132 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:48,600 is the government sends this legislation 133 00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:50,700 it's like a barge they send it from one 134 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,830 part of the Palace of Westminster and 135 00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:54,240 they send you a leaky barge and it 136 00:06:52,830 --> 00:06:57,000 arrives there and you're supposed to 137 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,200 jump on it give it an MOT do this than 138 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,840 the other and you look at it and you 139 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,830 realize how appalling most government 140 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:06,480 legislation is why because my fellow 141 00:07:03,830 --> 00:07:08,100 lords who were active look at this table 142 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,740 this doesn't work this doesn't work and 143 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:13,110 then we send it back we modernize it 144 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:15,240 sometimes we make it work but the real 145 00:07:13,110 --> 00:07:18,210 thing is that there are expertise in the 146 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:22,920 house applause you don't get that in the 147 00:07:18,210 --> 00:07:25,500 beauty show the you know the kind of X 148 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:27,510 Factor places and well once upon a time 149 00:07:25,500 --> 00:07:29,370 you did there's not much expertise there 150 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:33,270 I don't know I'll grant you I want to 151 00:07:29,370 --> 00:07:35,760 ask you about what no for the big issue 152 00:07:33,270 --> 00:07:37,920 and what no for the other causes that 153 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,510 you're involved in well you see the 154 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,240 other thing I get into the house of 155 00:07:39,510 --> 00:07:45,510 lords and I realized that seventy 156 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:47,910 percent of our activity is about what's 157 00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:49,980 gone wrong with regard to poverty 158 00:07:47,910 --> 00:07:51,840 intervention what's gone wrong with 159 00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:54,120 government policies what's gone wrong 160 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:57,680 with charities what's gone wrong with 161 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,680 individuals putting money 162 00:08:02,070 --> 00:08:07,200 here as a way of sorting out the 163 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,900 problems of capitalism which is unable 164 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:12,660 to answer the problems of poverty and 165 00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:14,190 this is in the fifth largest economy in 166 00:08:12,660 --> 00:08:16,320 the world when I look at that I think 167 00:08:14,190 --> 00:08:18,960 hang on they're getting it wrong then I 168 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:23,460 realize of course that virtually all of 169 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:26,700 my fellows are absolutely obsessed with 170 00:08:23,460 --> 00:08:30,600 how bad it is for the poor to live today 171 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:33,510 and I'm saying do I join them or do I 172 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,710 step back and say so people come to me 173 00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:37,410 and say will you get involved in this 174 00:08:34,710 --> 00:08:40,289 and I say no no I'm here to dismantle 175 00:08:37,410 --> 00:08:43,410 poverty I want to stop Johnny who's 3 176 00:08:40,289 --> 00:08:45,330 who's about to fail at school who is 177 00:08:43,410 --> 00:08:48,090 going to end up leaving school without 178 00:08:45,330 --> 00:08:50,640 any degrees any levels or anything like 179 00:08:48,090 --> 00:08:53,730 that becoming a big issue vendor in 20 180 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:57,600 years time so I'm there to say you look 181 00:08:53,730 --> 00:09:01,740 after today I really believe that the 182 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:04,080 big issue in facing us is how do we 183 00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:06,000 dismantle poverty when you look at 184 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,980 government departments when you look at 185 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,830 the fact my own favorite department of 186 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:13,650 prison department I was educated by the 187 00:09:10,830 --> 00:09:16,500 prison's I was I went to school of into 188 00:09:13,650 --> 00:09:19,050 a good Catholic school god bless them by 189 00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:22,740 the end of it I knew you know the shoe 190 00:09:19,050 --> 00:09:25,320 sizes of disease of the saints but I 191 00:09:22,740 --> 00:09:27,060 didn't know where the world was so when 192 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,090 I learnt to read them right in a boy's 193 00:09:27,060 --> 00:09:33,900 prison that's what that's what reform 194 00:09:30,090 --> 00:09:36,270 was so if we are going to rip we're 195 00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:38,610 going to change poverty we've got to 196 00:09:36,270 --> 00:09:40,650 stop the thirty percent of people who 197 00:09:38,610 --> 00:09:42,810 fail at school becoming eighty percent 198 00:09:40,650 --> 00:09:45,030 of the prison population becoming the 199 00:09:42,810 --> 00:09:47,040 long-term unemployed becoming the people 200 00:09:45,030 --> 00:09:48,600 so we've got to really sort out the kids 201 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,930 at the school but we've got to make 202 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:54,720 presents work and when you say that 203 00:09:51,930 --> 00:09:56,430 people got all the Liberals recoil I say 204 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,670 look it's the last it was my last chance 205 00:09:56,430 --> 00:10:03,300 it was my University look at the sales 206 00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:07,610 process now there's a lot of liberals in 207 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:07,610 the political system in the media 208 00:10:09,150 --> 00:10:16,320 they'll always cry over the state of the 209 00:10:12,210 --> 00:10:19,350 NHS or state of social care or or even 210 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:21,860 homelessness for that matter there's a 211 00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:25,770 wealth of people concerned with that 212 00:10:21,860 --> 00:10:29,720 there doesn't seem to be on the left as 213 00:10:25,770 --> 00:10:32,550 you used to be and I still AM any 214 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:35,330 believable strategy for generating 215 00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:38,430 wealth for putting people to work 216 00:10:35,330 --> 00:10:40,680 productively I always say under 217 00:10:38,430 --> 00:10:43,680 socialism if I was running it there 218 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:44,940 would be nobody out of work I mean the 219 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:47,400 work will be brought to you if you 220 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:50,610 couldn't get out of your house because 221 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:53,370 everybody needs to work and not just for 222 00:10:50,610 --> 00:10:55,980 purposes of productivity in other words 223 00:10:53,370 --> 00:10:58,820 what I'm saying is isn't part of this 224 00:10:55,980 --> 00:11:01,590 problem liberalism and liberals 225 00:10:58,820 --> 00:11:04,650 themselves you see what I think the left 226 00:11:01,590 --> 00:11:07,410 is really lost I consider myself still 227 00:11:04,650 --> 00:11:09,390 over the left but I'm I describe myself 228 00:11:07,410 --> 00:11:12,390 as a Catholic Marxist because I want to 229 00:11:09,390 --> 00:11:15,810 separate myself from any kind of social 230 00:11:12,390 --> 00:11:18,690 democracy type thing but the but what I 231 00:11:15,810 --> 00:11:22,650 find is that what is really lacking is a 232 00:11:18,690 --> 00:11:25,380 passion to turn people's lives around so 233 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:28,290 when I for instance talk about why don't 234 00:11:25,380 --> 00:11:30,930 we turn Social Security into social 235 00:11:28,290 --> 00:11:32,820 opportunity what people say are yeah but 236 00:11:30,930 --> 00:11:35,640 people should be allowed to be who they 237 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:37,500 are I said no you know what you're doing 238 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,710 is if you live in poverty you live 239 00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:43,020 nowhere near democracy my mother London 240 00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:45,480 Irish lady came over here having all 241 00:11:43,020 --> 00:11:48,510 these children never participated in 242 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,670 democracy never had any time because she 243 00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:52,440 was swallowed up with a night job quiet 244 00:11:50,670 --> 00:11:54,450 leaning in Baker Street and all sorts of 245 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:57,360 stuff like she never went anywhere so 246 00:11:54,450 --> 00:12:00,000 what we've got to do is we have to come 247 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,410 up on the left on the center where ever 248 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,630 you want to call it we have to come up 249 00:12:01,410 --> 00:12:05,790 with a grand plan now i agree with 250 00:12:03,630 --> 00:12:08,310 Napoleon Napoleon said the most useless 251 00:12:05,790 --> 00:12:10,800 thing on earth is a battle plan but you 252 00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:14,210 lost without it and I believe that we 253 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:17,160 need to be grand planning we need to be 254 00:12:14,210 --> 00:12:19,020 reinvigorating the original welfare 255 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,990 state you know the original work first 256 00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:22,279 day and I remember I was too when when I 257 00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:23,569 was 258 00:12:22,279 --> 00:12:25,490 five when I went to school people 259 00:12:23,569 --> 00:12:29,649 started I went to school and the first 260 00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:29,649 thing they did with exercises pale 261 00:12:34,850 --> 00:12:39,880 working classes would be as healthy as 262 00:12:37,339 --> 00:12:42,699 the middle classes and fifty years later 263 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:46,610 sixty years later we have a situation 264 00:12:42,699 --> 00:12:48,230 where we don't spend we spend half of 265 00:12:46,610 --> 00:12:51,769 one percent of the National Health 266 00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:54,130 Service on prevention when we used to 267 00:12:51,769 --> 00:12:57,259 spend twenty percent everything's gone 268 00:12:54,130 --> 00:13:00,350 mercy and I believe very strongly we 269 00:12:57,259 --> 00:13:02,540 need to go back and reinvent what the 270 00:13:00,350 --> 00:13:05,630 welfare state was because it was the 271 00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:09,759 most profound intervention in the light 272 00:13:05,630 --> 00:13:12,920 of ordinary people you are a very 273 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:15,230 unordinary man and a very unordinary 274 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,779 lord and it's been a pleasure talking to 275 00:13:15,230 --> 00:13:20,060 you on the Sputnik today coming up next 276 00:13:17,779 --> 00:13:22,069 the opposition wins in Ghana and will 277 00:13:20,060 --> 00:13:29,959 take power without a shot being fired 278 00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:31,850 stage welcome back to Sputnik Ghana at 279 00:13:29,959 --> 00:13:33,920 the time of independence from Britain 280 00:13:31,850 --> 00:13:37,130 was led by one of the greatest of all 281 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:39,829 African leaders Kwame Nkrumah since then 282 00:13:37,130 --> 00:13:41,959 it's been frankly downhill at least in 283 00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:44,089 my opinion although I did have a soft 284 00:13:41,959 --> 00:13:46,579 spot for the half a Scotsman Jerry 285 00:13:44,089 --> 00:13:48,680 Rawlings but you've got to hand it to 286 00:13:46,579 --> 00:13:51,380 Ghana they do generally have free and 287 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:53,870 fair elections and nobody has to fight 288 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:55,670 their way into power and the same has 289 00:13:53,870 --> 00:13:58,939 just happened last week as the 290 00:13:55,670 --> 00:14:00,949 opposition leader nana akuffo addo takes 291 00:13:58,939 --> 00:14:03,649 on the Premiership joining us now to 292 00:14:00,949 --> 00:14:06,730 discuss what it all means is jonathan 293 00:14:03,649 --> 00:14:10,040 ave answer founder and publisher of 294 00:14:06,730 --> 00:14:12,980 africa briefing jonathan thanks for 295 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:15,920 joining us you're welcome and first of 296 00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:19,250 all tell me how does gana managed to 297 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:22,699 have peaceful relatively fair elections 298 00:14:19,250 --> 00:14:25,490 and the opposition takes on the power 299 00:14:22,699 --> 00:14:27,800 and the power leaves without a fight 300 00:14:25,490 --> 00:14:30,860 what's so different about Ghana would 301 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:33,649 say ivory coast next door Ghana and 302 00:14:30,860 --> 00:14:37,040 historically you know has been a trip 303 00:14:33,649 --> 00:14:40,100 blazer you know in many spheres of 304 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:42,680 flavor politics economy and so on so 305 00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:44,300 forth okay I mean gonna was a face to 306 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,400 gain independence in a 307 00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:50,870 Saharan Africa you mention him chromoly 308 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:56,590 right and fast-forward to the mid 80s i 309 00:14:50,870 --> 00:15:01,670 think and i was armada fests to embrace 310 00:14:56,590 --> 00:15:03,860 IMF structural economic reforms right 311 00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:06,170 which actually help to improve the 312 00:15:03,860 --> 00:15:08,840 economy up to a point and again 313 00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:11,240 generally Ghanians and all there being 314 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:14,750 so many cause you know in calistoga 315 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:17,690 history and Ghanians covered up I mean 316 00:15:14,750 --> 00:15:21,590 what actually turned the tide also in 317 00:15:17,690 --> 00:15:25,490 Rollins said the kinetics of the nine 318 00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:29,060 and as cuted so for my major muscle 319 00:15:25,490 --> 00:15:32,630 heads of state and by firing squad and 320 00:15:29,060 --> 00:15:35,900 again some businessmen were arrested you 321 00:15:32,630 --> 00:15:37,910 know wept publicly humiliated publicly 322 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:42,170 and in those days if you had more than 323 00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:43,970 fifty thousand cities began a currency 324 00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:46,070 in your account you have to come an 325 00:15:43,970 --> 00:15:47,930 account for and if you cringe account 326 00:15:46,070 --> 00:15:51,410 properly for the money in your account 327 00:15:47,930 --> 00:15:53,990 sounds quite fair to me we're well but 328 00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:59,210 but is he saw all these and or 329 00:15:53,990 --> 00:16:01,460 cognitively impaired galleons against 330 00:15:59,210 --> 00:16:04,460 the idea of a coup d'etat Daniel got fed 331 00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:07,070 up of colitas so dear brother and again 332 00:16:04,460 --> 00:16:10,000 I like to think that the Kenyan electric 333 00:16:07,070 --> 00:16:12,200 or the canyon public you know it's a bit 334 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,560 post-college becoming a bit politically 335 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:17,570 much more mature and a bit sophisticated 336 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:20,300 okay so will prefer to kill their 337 00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:23,030 governments through develop box instead 338 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:25,820 of some sugah disclosed disgruntled 339 00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:27,890 suitor gelda from Boris ticking arms and 340 00:16:25,820 --> 00:16:30,890 were throwing a popular government now 341 00:16:27,890 --> 00:16:33,980 you mentioned the IMF Ghana was for a 342 00:16:30,890 --> 00:16:36,440 time at least can a poster boy for IMF 343 00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:38,810 structural reform I must tell you when I 344 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:42,920 hear the words I am a structural reform 345 00:16:38,810 --> 00:16:46,520 I run for the hills because whilst on 346 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:49,820 the theoretical level that might improve 347 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:52,400 some features of the economy it 348 00:16:49,820 --> 00:16:55,670 generally means mass poverty for the 349 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,420 working people and the already poor poor 350 00:16:55,670 --> 00:17:01,940 what comes 351 00:16:56,420 --> 00:17:04,669 Comfort yes so how has or did they ghana 352 00:17:01,940 --> 00:17:06,380 escaped that fate for the masses well 353 00:17:04,669 --> 00:17:08,480 after a while I mean the economy 354 00:17:06,380 --> 00:17:11,870 improved I mean we went through those 355 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:15,620 reforms Colombia fall from 1983 so I 356 00:17:11,870 --> 00:17:18,770 think delete the mid to late 90s right 357 00:17:15,620 --> 00:17:22,579 and thankfully commodity quality prize 358 00:17:18,770 --> 00:17:25,179 money shut up and again the structure I 359 00:17:22,579 --> 00:17:28,880 just I just met you know took effect 360 00:17:25,179 --> 00:17:31,660 okay so we went off and all those 361 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:35,990 economic am fe pulls a chronic a 362 00:17:31,660 --> 00:17:39,350 policies and when could flow came to 363 00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:42,620 power in two thousand where he declared 364 00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:46,340 that a hypocrite episode organized debts 365 00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:48,380 no were rich enough okay and a lot of 366 00:17:46,340 --> 00:17:51,440 money started flowing in and Koufos 367 00:17:48,380 --> 00:17:56,179 pro-business so he attracted a lot of 368 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:58,820 goodwill ok so I'm that actually helped 369 00:17:56,179 --> 00:18:00,919 improved the plight of the ordinary 370 00:17:58,820 --> 00:18:04,669 Ghanaian poverty was reduced from I 371 00:18:00,919 --> 00:18:07,730 think am I think 40 there are about 372 00:18:04,669 --> 00:18:10,850 peasants to under thirty percent okay 373 00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:14,330 and that trend is ongoing now continuing 374 00:18:10,850 --> 00:18:17,570 and so why did the opposition win this 375 00:18:14,330 --> 00:18:20,900 election what were their main criticisms 376 00:18:17,570 --> 00:18:23,720 of the then government or this incumbent 377 00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:26,809 are going away to minister out why were 378 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:30,010 they defeated okay number one this 379 00:18:26,809 --> 00:18:32,230 ongoing government undertook a lot of 380 00:18:30,010 --> 00:18:35,120 infrastructure big tickets 381 00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:40,280 infrastructure programs and all built 382 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:43,610 roads hospitals schools so forth there 383 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:47,980 must be given credit for that but there 384 00:18:43,610 --> 00:18:51,380 is this perception of corruption and 385 00:18:47,980 --> 00:18:54,200 corruption with impunity right so that 386 00:18:51,380 --> 00:18:58,549 actually I wasn't gonna forget September 387 00:18:54,200 --> 00:19:01,580 and just about anybody I spoke to was 388 00:18:58,549 --> 00:19:06,600 crying corruption corruption corruption 389 00:19:01,580 --> 00:19:09,530 and the situation was it helped with the 390 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:13,470 attracted energy crisis that affected 391 00:19:09,530 --> 00:19:17,280 individuals businesses you know Samba 392 00:19:13,470 --> 00:19:19,620 tens how to close it into every 393 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:23,220 treatment there for high unemployment 394 00:19:19,620 --> 00:19:27,410 the institution what they have when the 395 00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:27,410 former pres delhi presidents are tamils 396 00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:36,980 they were you taken a lot of strikes by 397 00:19:33,050 --> 00:19:39,770 the purpose of Vanessa's doctors TKS as 398 00:19:36,980 --> 00:19:42,470 well so forth right so I mean the 399 00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:45,290 government had to adjust the public's of 400 00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:46,790 this elaborate structure so a wig 401 00:19:45,290 --> 00:19:49,910 increases where I what had across the 402 00:19:46,790 --> 00:19:51,500 board okay so that shut up balloon the 403 00:19:49,910 --> 00:19:53,810 government but yet recurrent back yet 404 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:57,380 balloon so much so that it was splendid 405 00:19:53,810 --> 00:20:00,020 about sixty-five percent order of the 406 00:19:57,380 --> 00:20:03,710 budget on widget authorities can you do 407 00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:07,430 the maths okay now and it's situation 408 00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:10,430 was exacerbated by falling prices for 409 00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:13,490 Ghana's cooperating exports Coco gold 410 00:20:10,430 --> 00:20:16,550 and literally a moyel so you could help 411 00:20:13,490 --> 00:20:19,390 so the government had to resort to 412 00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:23,720 borrow in a slumber Owen so right now 413 00:20:19,390 --> 00:20:27,530 the debt the debt stands at about sixty 414 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:30,860 seven percent of ganas gdp now what's 415 00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:33,260 happened to my old comrade Jerry 416 00:20:30,860 --> 00:20:37,340 Rawlings is he out of politics 417 00:20:33,260 --> 00:20:40,910 altogether his family appear to be on 418 00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:43,070 different sides in the elections what's 419 00:20:40,910 --> 00:20:45,800 that all about well you're only running 420 00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:47,840 so everybody knows him to be to be rid 421 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,810 i'll use the word advisedly by wrigley 422 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:54,680 you know against you know corruption and 423 00:20:50,810 --> 00:20:57,560 he believed also believes that this 424 00:20:54,680 --> 00:21:00,650 current event is a drink events and i 425 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:03,200 was a full of corrupt officials and he 426 00:21:00,650 --> 00:21:05,900 was also frustrated you know to put it 427 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:11,060 mildly by the arguing president john 428 00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:13,640 mahama's simile powerless right to do 429 00:21:11,060 --> 00:21:16,420 anything you know about the corruption 430 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:19,370 in government and in business okay and 431 00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:21,130 again i believe those also so bad blood 432 00:21:19,370 --> 00:21:23,480 between the fed from a facility 433 00:21:21,130 --> 00:21:26,270 inoculate right my brothers I mean mrs. 434 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:29,390 Rawlings right some sort of run-ins mrs. 435 00:21:26,270 --> 00:21:31,840 Rollins how to form a home party and 436 00:21:29,390 --> 00:21:36,039 contest but I believe or sense 437 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:38,650 bleh to to water down yo mama and 438 00:21:36,039 --> 00:21:40,900 entities votes but funny enough air 439 00:21:38,650 --> 00:21:43,120 ionically it wasn't the first time she 440 00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:46,390 ran them or not yes the first thing yes 441 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:49,390 and I only can am the offense daughter 442 00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:52,390 dr. is a little rolling right how does 443 00:21:49,390 --> 00:21:54,730 been elected another NP at an MP in 444 00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:58,539 order latest last week okay on the 445 00:21:54,730 --> 00:22:02,260 ticket of the road are going potty NDC 446 00:21:58,539 --> 00:22:04,899 yeah yeah it is what do they have 447 00:22:02,260 --> 00:22:07,240 serious political ambitions is there a 448 00:22:04,899 --> 00:22:09,610 possibility of the Rollings family in 449 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,470 one form or a law coming back to power 450 00:22:09,610 --> 00:22:15,100 in Ghana and what I here for the 451 00:22:11,470 --> 00:22:18,730 grapevine and I also very good sources 452 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:24,399 actually mandatory yeah let him they are 453 00:22:18,730 --> 00:22:27,899 plans for one NDC prevented this guy 454 00:22:24,399 --> 00:22:32,049 whose name i already mentioned right to 455 00:22:27,899 --> 00:22:34,240 become the dealer a party and choose run 456 00:22:32,049 --> 00:22:36,640 as daughter dr. seritov Rawlings asked 457 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,429 his running mate so does a plan here 458 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:41,890 that well information I gather yeah I 459 00:22:39,429 --> 00:22:46,929 mean without knowing any more about it I 460 00:22:41,890 --> 00:22:50,110 wish them very well indeed the state of 461 00:22:46,929 --> 00:22:57,940 Ghana under the incoming government how 462 00:22:50,110 --> 00:23:00,779 much change um look the people are 463 00:22:57,940 --> 00:23:03,669 clamoring for change you know we had 464 00:23:00,779 --> 00:23:06,940 people coming for change in our an 465 00:23:03,669 --> 00:23:09,789 America elsewhere figures become the 466 00:23:06,940 --> 00:23:13,630 buzzword you know in global politics now 467 00:23:09,789 --> 00:23:17,409 okay the aspects jobs and this incoming 468 00:23:13,630 --> 00:23:20,429 president has made some promises one 469 00:23:17,409 --> 00:23:23,409 dumb for every village you know one 470 00:23:20,429 --> 00:23:28,440 factory for every district 1 million 471 00:23:23,409 --> 00:23:28,440 dollars for every district constituency 472 00:23:28,570 --> 00:23:33,460 so the five coaches resistant gana so 473 00:23:31,419 --> 00:23:35,620 talking about giving one wheel on the 474 00:23:33,460 --> 00:23:39,309 list to every closet choice we talked 475 00:23:35,620 --> 00:23:42,250 about 235 million dollars where is a 476 00:23:39,309 --> 00:23:43,929 money gonna come from they are bunking 477 00:23:42,250 --> 00:23:50,039 the new the increment covers are banking 478 00:23:43,929 --> 00:23:54,519 on improved commodity prices gold oil 479 00:23:50,039 --> 00:23:56,440 and cocoa right and again there's one on 480 00:23:54,519 --> 00:23:59,380 your project that is coming on stream I 481 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,179 think it's a 7.1 billion dollars or you 482 00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:04,450 project that is coming Oh seaside beyond 483 00:24:01,179 --> 00:24:06,100 being managed by Italy's any ela right 484 00:24:04,450 --> 00:24:08,679 that's to come on stream early next year 485 00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:13,980 and that's a gas you know project does 486 00:24:08,679 --> 00:24:17,759 also come on stream it in 2018 ok so the 487 00:24:13,980 --> 00:24:21,519 incoming oval is banking economy on 488 00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:25,059 these revenue streams you know what 489 00:24:21,519 --> 00:24:27,309 about these things gold cocoa and oil 490 00:24:25,059 --> 00:24:29,860 here's my prediction the price will rise 491 00:24:27,309 --> 00:24:32,320 on all three of those over the next five 492 00:24:29,860 --> 00:24:35,529 years less also if it does it depressing 493 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:38,169 wave the present rice all all the best 494 00:24:35,529 --> 00:24:40,149 all the best for Ghana all the best for 495 00:24:38,169 --> 00:24:44,100 Ghana Jonathan thanks very much for 496 00:24:40,149 --> 00:24:44,100 joining us you were on the Sputnik and 497 00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:49,480 now it's your turn to tell us what you 498 00:24:47,529 --> 00:24:51,490 think through the portals of social 499 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:55,690 media what's rattling gayatri so the big 500 00:24:51,490 --> 00:24:58,840 issue has sold over 250 million copies 501 00:24:55,690 --> 00:25:01,450 which is amazing amazing matt turner 502 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:04,059 says a newspaper that helps those who 503 00:25:01,450 --> 00:25:06,429 are vulnerable and marginalized while 504 00:25:04,059 --> 00:25:10,690 our broadsheets pretend they don't exist 505 00:25:06,429 --> 00:25:13,299 and agate Okla says John BIRT shows that 506 00:25:10,690 --> 00:25:16,720 media can be a tool for the great good 507 00:25:13,299 --> 00:25:19,990 as well as evil an inspiration here he 508 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:22,299 is finest catholic i know from Pope 509 00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:24,370 Francis himself well if all the trees 510 00:25:22,299 --> 00:25:26,379 there we here for today which alas means 511 00:25:24,370 --> 00:25:27,909 that's the end of the show but you can 512 00:25:26,379 --> 00:25:30,610 stay in touch with us on social media 513 00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:33,129 through twitter RT underscore sputnik or 514 00:25:30,610 --> 00:25:35,200 on facebook sputnik on russia today it's 515 00:25:33,129 --> 00:25:38,840 goodbye from me go three and four me 516 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:41,970 george galloway it's been marvelous 517 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,970 [Music] 518 00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:48,190 [Music]