1 00:00:03,430 --> 00:00:06,580 [Music] 2 00:00:14,759 --> 00:00:17,759 I 3 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,879 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 4 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:43,440 with me George Galloway and me gatri the 5 00:00:40,879 --> 00:00:46,480 prison Officers Association has been 6 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:48,320 warning for years that our jails 7 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:50,840 although some of them are no longer our 8 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:54,000 jails but private businesses were a 9 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,280 volcano waiting to erupt their warnings 10 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,359 were not only ignored but their rights 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,280 were taken away from them by the John 12 00:00:58,359 --> 00:01:04,879 Major government and despite Promises to 13 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:07,600 the contrary not restored by Tony Blair 14 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:10,960 or Gordon Brown what happened next is 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:13,320 history already the uprising in the G4S 16 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:15,720 private prison in Birmingham last week 17 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:17,720 may just be a taste of what's to come 18 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,880 and what's gone wrong in Britain's 19 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:23,079 prisons joining us now is Steve Gillan 20 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,960 General Secretary of the Union the 21 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:28,720 prison Officers Association so that we 22 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:31,159 can tackle this subject Steve thanks for 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,880 joining us I mean I mean you are 24 00:01:31,159 --> 00:01:36,560 something of a Seer a clairvoyant 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:39,720 because many years ago I interviewed you 26 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:42,880 on radio and you predicted exactly 27 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:46,439 what's happening now why were the 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:48,079 members why were the workers ignored by 29 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:49,719 the government on this yeah well firstly 30 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:51,320 George thanks for inviting me on and 31 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:53,560 you're absolutely right we did do an 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,479 interview some time ago I think it was 33 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,399 about 34 00:01:54,479 --> 00:02:01,280 2010 when the coalition government were 35 00:01:57,399 --> 00:02:04,719 embarking uh on D ruction of Public 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:07,520 Services by uh imposing uh Draconian 37 00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:10,560 budget cuts uh and we warned at that 38 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:13,480 time that if you keep doing that then 39 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,360 you will have uh eruptions on your hand 40 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,760 within the prison system and that's 41 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:21,000 exactly what's happened an eruption is a 42 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:23,720 a good description of it it is volcanic 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,959 in character would it be fair to say 44 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:30,120 that what you've got is too many 45 00:02:25,959 --> 00:02:33,560 prisoners not enough uh of your members 46 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:35,599 the prison officers and therefore no 47 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:38,760 attempt really meaningfully to 48 00:02:35,599 --> 00:02:40,519 rehabilitate to uh reform the 49 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:43,440 individuals in the prison so it's just a 50 00:02:40,519 --> 00:02:45,000 pressure cooker that's in a nutshell in 51 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:49,159 effect George if you actually take it 52 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:53,319 back to the strangeways riots um in the 53 00:02:49,159 --> 00:02:55,640 early 90s uh Lord wolf done a report 54 00:02:53,319 --> 00:02:58,680 into that and he says if you haven't got 55 00:02:55,640 --> 00:03:00,800 enough staff and there there's um 56 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:04,400 overcrowding then and it's a recipe for 57 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:06,560 disaster now Lord wolf made uh a 58 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,799 recommendation uh that said it should be 59 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,879 written into statute that no prison 60 00:03:09,799 --> 00:03:13,239 should be 61 00:03:10,879 --> 00:03:15,080 overcrowded and it was ignored by 62 00:03:13,239 --> 00:03:17,560 successive governments it was ignored by 63 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,920 the conservatives it was ignored by 64 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:23,280 Labor uh and they just kept cramming 65 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:26,200 people in uh to our jails but at the 66 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:30,920 same time cutting staff numbers now 67 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:33,840 anybody with a uh bit of cin sense half 68 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:38,280 we realize that that is absolutely a 69 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:41,920 recipe for disaster now Ru on to uh pre 70 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,760 2010 we've got a situation where we had 71 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,640 different secretaries of state with had 72 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:51,120 Kenneth Clark wanting a rehabilitation 73 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:54,360 Revolution we then had uh Chris gring uh 74 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:57,159 who failed miserably in the clamor by 75 00:03:54,360 --> 00:04:00,159 the right-wing media uh to lock them up 76 00:03:57,159 --> 00:04:03,280 and throw away the key and to get tough 77 00:04:00,159 --> 00:04:05,360 uh on uh individuals within prisons so 78 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,200 that was to satisfy the likes of the sun 79 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:11,200 and the male and all the right-wing 80 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:14,480 media then we had Michael G um and now 81 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:16,320 we've got was truss so the only thing 82 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,359 that's actually been down Hills since 83 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,759 Kenneth Clark well absolutely because 84 00:04:18,359 --> 00:04:22,639 the reality is George you know we've 85 00:04:20,759 --> 00:04:25,320 we've sat and watched and we've warned 86 00:04:22,639 --> 00:04:28,560 them time and time again and their own 87 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:31,520 stats tell the story themselves you know 88 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:34,840 record amounts of su suicides in prisons 89 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:38,600 record amount of self harm in prisons 90 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:41,360 record amount of drugs assaults on staff 91 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:44,240 as prisoner on prisoner assaults you 92 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,840 couldn't make this up and they' got 93 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,880 8,000 less prison officers than we had 94 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:50,440 in 95 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,800 2010 dealing with this crisis you can 96 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,160 only describe it as a crisis and we've 97 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:58,560 seen it at hmp Bedford where there was a 98 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:01,880 riot a few weeks back and now we've seen 99 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:05,479 hmp Birmingham so this is Hell on Earth 100 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:07,759 within Britain yeah and many of them I 101 00:05:05,479 --> 00:05:09,639 mean I assum many of them will return 102 00:05:07,759 --> 00:05:11,840 into society what existing 103 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:13,240 rehabilitation program is there well the 104 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:14,919 majority you're absolutely right to 105 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,639 mention that because the majority of 106 00:05:14,919 --> 00:05:20,000 people in prisons will it sometime be 107 00:05:17,639 --> 00:05:24,000 released back into society it's it's 108 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:26,039 only some that won't so the reality is 109 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,639 instead of warehousing people what we 110 00:05:26,039 --> 00:05:29,720 should be doing is actually 111 00:05:27,639 --> 00:05:32,639 rehabilitating them and stop talking 112 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:35,280 about it give prison officers the tools 113 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:37,039 to actually do the job and the reality 114 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:38,919 is I think we'll find a much safer 115 00:05:37,039 --> 00:05:41,520 Society then when people are 116 00:05:38,919 --> 00:05:44,000 rehabilitated properly but the truth of 117 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:46,639 the matter is much more has got to be 118 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,360 done before individuals get into the 119 00:05:46,639 --> 00:05:52,720 criminal justice system so for example 120 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:55,199 you've got to uh deal with with drug 121 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:58,000 addicts youve got to deal with alcohol 122 00:05:55,199 --> 00:06:00,280 abuse uh this isn't rocket science most 123 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:03,759 crimes are committed through alcohol 124 00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:06,720 or drugs uh mentally ill people should 125 00:06:03,759 --> 00:06:08,919 be diverted away from prison yeah and 126 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:11,599 not mix with the others absolutely right 127 00:06:08,919 --> 00:06:14,319 but we've got to get the basics into 128 00:06:11,599 --> 00:06:16,800 schools to educate our children the 129 00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:19,680 right from wrong and so forth but more 130 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:23,319 than that you got to give people hope of 131 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:26,560 decent jobs decent housing decent 132 00:06:23,319 --> 00:06:28,759 education so that you steer them away 133 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:31,400 from the criminal justice system in the 134 00:06:28,759 --> 00:06:34,120 first place because once they're in that 135 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:37,599 cycle it seems to be a revolving door 136 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:41,280 absolutely I mean neither of us because 137 00:06:37,599 --> 00:06:46,039 I know you uh I can say that uh our 138 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:48,880 liberals uh were not uh fooled that uh 139 00:06:46,039 --> 00:06:52,280 all the people in prison are are teddy 140 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:54,680 bears if only we treated them nicely so 141 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:58,560 just in case anybody's in any doubt 142 00:06:54,680 --> 00:07:02,000 about this the result of these cuts a 143 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:04,919 Savage reduction of 8,000 fewer prison 144 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,639 officers is that territories inside the 145 00:07:04,919 --> 00:07:10,800 prisons become effectively under the 146 00:07:07,639 --> 00:07:12,360 control of gangs and criminals uh by 147 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:15,639 definition they're criminals they're in 148 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,240 there uh and if the guards are not there 149 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:19,840 can't be there cuz they're not in the 150 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,039 numbers The Gangs take over and 151 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:26,520 therefore you're getting prisons where 152 00:07:22,039 --> 00:07:30,120 drugs are being delivered and sold often 153 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:34,400 forced sales to other prisoners this is 154 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:38,120 why your word hell uh is is uh 155 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:40,599 appropriate um so we're not asking 156 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:43,599 people necessarily to buy our 157 00:07:40,599 --> 00:07:45,960 perspective of prison reform penal 158 00:07:43,599 --> 00:07:48,599 reform even from the point of view of 159 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,840 the state's only most basic interest of 160 00:07:48,599 --> 00:07:53,879 keeping order in the prisons this is a 161 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:56,000 disaster it is a disaster uh because you 162 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:59,560 you just can't cope I mean you mentioned 163 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:02,879 the drugs there George uh we've moved on 164 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:06,319 to uh new psychoactive active substances 165 00:08:02,879 --> 00:08:08,560 such as space and black mamba never even 166 00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:12,599 heard of them totally synthetic drugs 167 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:15,479 that are devastating prisoners are dying 168 00:08:12,599 --> 00:08:17,400 from taking them because each batch is 169 00:08:15,479 --> 00:08:19,759 totally different they used to be called 170 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,479 legal highs and there's nothing legal 171 00:08:19,759 --> 00:08:23,560 about them it's destroying people's 172 00:08:21,479 --> 00:08:27,840 lives not just in prisons but in a 173 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:30,000 society as well and our NHS is actually 174 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,879 the used to nickname 175 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,880 uh some of the ambulances that were 176 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:36,399 coming into prisons ambulance because 177 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,599 there was that many prisoners who were 178 00:08:36,399 --> 00:08:42,320 taking black mamba uh been fed to our 179 00:08:39,599 --> 00:08:45,120 NHS it was clogging up every um 180 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:47,080 ambulance in the system in certain areas 181 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,320 which is quite frightening because these 182 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:52,320 people uh who were taking them were 183 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,040 turning into extreme violent people who 184 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:57,040 may not have been violent in the first 185 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:59,680 place and some prisoners were getting 186 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:03,399 were using some the weaker ones as get 187 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:07,240 pigs to try and test the drugs out first 188 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:09,839 to see what reactions they have uh as 189 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:14,560 you probably well know drugs can be a 190 00:09:09,839 --> 00:09:17,519 currency in prisons so what might cost5 191 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:18,440 outside in the street will actually cost 192 00:09:17,519 --> 00:09:21,880 about 193 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:24,040 £500 or or even more depending on the 194 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,519 strength of the drug so we get real 195 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,920 problems but you wouldn't have that 196 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:29,880 problem if they were running the drug 197 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,040 treatment 198 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,519 programs uh they had the correct amount 199 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,760 of staff to do the basics of the job I 200 00:09:34,519 --> 00:09:39,800 mean one of the chief inspectors 201 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,640 reported that it was easier to get drugs 202 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,240 than it was a clean 203 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:47,480 pillowcase in a prison now that's the 204 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:50,040 sort of society that we've got we should 205 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,680 be ashamed of ourselves quite it's known 206 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,640 that the Tories know the price of 207 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:55,839 everything and the value of nothing but 208 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,160 they don't seem to know the price even 209 00:09:55,839 --> 00:10:00,440 of this on the principle that a stitch 210 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,760 in time saves n you'd think you could 211 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:06,000 persuade them to employ a few thousand 212 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:08,640 more prison officers and save tens of 213 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:11,120 millions when prisons go up and smoke 214 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,640 well that's absolutely correct so you 215 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,279 you look at a situation where they've 216 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,720 taken hundreds of million pounds out the 217 00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:19,320 prison system and then you look at hmp 218 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,160 Birmingham where that Riot could run 219 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,760 into millions of pounds so they're not 220 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,640 actually saving anything uh by having 221 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,800 those Draconian cups because you're 222 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,800 right you reap what you s and they're 223 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:33,160 certainly uh reaping what they're s now 224 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:36,399 and I can't see it getting any better 225 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:40,079 and that brings me to another Point um 226 00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:41,920 when you um pay people not the going 227 00:10:40,079 --> 00:10:44,800 rate so for example a new prisoner 228 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:48,880 prison officer coming into the job is 229 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:52,560 paid 19,000 a year they are not going to 230 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:54,800 stay in a vient environment because they 231 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:57,360 can go elsewhere and get the same sort 232 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,639 of money or even more money for doing 233 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,160 that so they've got to put the 234 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:02,920 professional 235 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:05,639 back into the job uh they've got to have 236 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:09,040 a decent pension age 237 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:12,880 68 uh retirement age for a prison 238 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:15,079 officer is nonsensical it's absolutely 239 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:18,040 nonsensical so you pointed out at the 240 00:11:15,079 --> 00:11:21,040 beginning of the program that uh our 241 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,959 Union were banned from taking any form 242 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,480 of industrial action and it's actually 243 00:11:22,959 --> 00:11:27,760 illegal for a prison officer to induce 244 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,880 another prison officer to take any form 245 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,880 of action now that came in in 246 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,160 1994 uh under the conservative 247 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,120 government and you're right to say that 248 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,680 labor didn't repeal it under Blair or 249 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,040 promise they would they did promise that 250 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:42,279 they would and they also promised that 251 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,360 they wouldn't have any private prisons 252 00:11:42,279 --> 00:11:47,800 uh cuz I remember Jack straw actually 253 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:50,920 calling uh private prisons back in 1994 254 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:53,680 95 morally repugnant indeed morally 255 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,880 repugnant that only time for that last 256 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:58,560 Point um I know you've got members in 257 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,839 both sectors but most of the public 258 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:03,120 watching this will think it is morally 259 00:12:00,839 --> 00:12:05,920 repugnant that a prison instead of what 260 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:08,279 it's supposed to be can actually be a 261 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,200 profit-making business for private 262 00:12:08,279 --> 00:12:12,880 individuals and that's what we've got 263 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,680 10% of Britain's prisons in private 264 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,920 hands ab and it does make you wonder uh 265 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:19,680 about reducing overcrowding and 266 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,639 different things when you actually look 267 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:23,800 at the private companies their 268 00:12:21,639 --> 00:12:26,399 shareholders make money out of 269 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,560 incarceration and it brings me to a 270 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:29,720 point that happened in America in 271 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:33,040 Mississippi 272 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:35,160 where judges uh were uh committing fraud 273 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,720 taken backhanders from private companies 274 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:40,440 in America for walking up more and more 275 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,079 children and I think the judges actually 276 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,680 received a prison sentence themselves 277 00:12:42,079 --> 00:12:46,880 three years yeah they went to jail now 278 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:48,880 is that what we want a sort of system 279 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,519 here cop in America I don't think we'll 280 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,519 get anything to learn from the Americans 281 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:54,360 actually we really don't not on many 282 00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:56,199 things and certainly not on prisons 283 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,360 absolutely Steve Gillan of the prison 284 00:12:56,199 --> 00:13:01,680 Officers Association thanks very much 285 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:04,639 for coming on board the Sputnik coming 286 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:08,160 up after the break he was a fine young 287 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:10,320 cannibal indeed Roland Lee gift don't 288 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,320 miss 289 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:17,839 it welcome back to Sputnik he was a fine 290 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:21,639 young cannibal indeed the epitome of 291 00:13:17,839 --> 00:13:23,959 cool voted in 1990 by People magazine as 292 00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:27,040 one of the 50 most beautiful people in 293 00:13:23,959 --> 00:13:30,279 the world iconic hits like she drives me 294 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,519 crazy and good thing rocked many a kasba 295 00:13:30,279 --> 00:13:35,240 and then so far as most members of the 296 00:13:32,519 --> 00:13:37,360 public were concerned he disappeared 297 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:40,240 except of course he didn't like all of 298 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,880 us he lived his life but until I saw him 299 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,880 in my audience at a recent talk I gave I 300 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,639 had no idea he was still performing and 301 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,680 wow is he still performing and I thought 302 00:13:47,639 --> 00:13:52,079 that a wider audience young as well as 303 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:54,199 old deserve to hear what happened next 304 00:13:52,079 --> 00:13:57,680 so I'm glad to welcome on board the 305 00:13:54,199 --> 00:14:01,120 Sputnik Roland gift it was my Christmas 306 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:04,800 gift to run into you because I was a 307 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:08,279 huge fan of your voice and I'm still a 308 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:10,600 huge fan of your voice but I lost track 309 00:14:08,279 --> 00:14:15,120 of you and I suspect most of the people 310 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:17,880 watching this also did your band was so 311 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:21,160 big and then so far as most people were 312 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:24,120 concerned until Jules Holland hook up 313 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:28,120 few years ago uh you were off the music 314 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:30,199 scene did did you consciously leave uh 315 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:35,160 the music scene did it leave you what 316 00:14:30,199 --> 00:14:38,360 happened I think it was a bit of both um 317 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,839 we we did have like really enormous 318 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,279 success quite quickly as well a lot of 319 00:14:40,839 --> 00:14:46,279 people said you know you have to tour 320 00:14:42,279 --> 00:14:48,079 America endlessly to to have that and we 321 00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:50,839 didn't you know we did two tours and 322 00:14:48,079 --> 00:14:54,839 then we had a really big album and I 323 00:14:50,839 --> 00:14:57,440 think it was quite a big amount to 324 00:14:54,839 --> 00:14:59,800 process how were you at the time about 325 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,480 28 you w a teenager oh wasn't KN I'd 326 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,279 kind of had a bit of a life I'd done all 327 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,680 my drugs before then so I didn't have to 328 00:15:04,279 --> 00:15:11,199 go through that i' got that out my 329 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:14,199 system um but I hadn't had that kind of 330 00:15:11,199 --> 00:15:16,320 attention and when we did our first 331 00:15:14,199 --> 00:15:17,480 album we were based in Birmingham I used 332 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,040 to I was living in London but I'd 333 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,279 commute up to Birmingham we we were 334 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,399 based there when we did the second album 335 00:15:21,279 --> 00:15:25,040 we were based in London and then we 336 00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:29,040 thought it'd be a good idea to go to New 337 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:31,839 York to do the third album um but that 338 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:35,360 didn't really work out so well you know 339 00:15:31,839 --> 00:15:40,720 it was quite um quite a distracting 340 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:43,319 place and work ethics or what just this 341 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,880 everybody comes I mean there is a place 342 00:15:43,319 --> 00:15:46,639 of where dream come true know that's 343 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,319 what they want to claim I think New York 344 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:50,279 I think is a great place if you've got 345 00:15:48,319 --> 00:15:52,959 your stuff and you want to take your 346 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:54,639 stuff to Market or you know just or to 347 00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:58,639 your public but to actually sort of 348 00:15:54,639 --> 00:16:01,120 create it wasn't such a great place and 349 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,480 we distractions too many distract just 350 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,240 just the energy of the place too many 351 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,000 people finding you're the most beautiful 352 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,680 man in the world you you would it was 353 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,880 exhausting just walking down the street 354 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,319 to the shops because people would just 355 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:16,040 have even not because people would know 356 00:16:13,319 --> 00:16:19,560 that you were famous but just people had 357 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:23,319 so much to say about themselves often as 358 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:24,680 well just they would kind of like unload 359 00:16:23,319 --> 00:16:27,160 on you and a kind of you know their 360 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:30,000 psychic energy would kind of unload on 361 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:33,959 you well my great grandmother immigrated 362 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:37,600 from New York to Dundee now that is a 363 00:16:33,959 --> 00:16:40,759 perverse decision but your move to New 364 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:43,639 York uh was kind of the beginning of the 365 00:16:40,759 --> 00:16:46,279 end of f Young Cannibals it kind of was 366 00:16:43,639 --> 00:16:49,079 it kind of was and we had this um we 367 00:16:46,279 --> 00:16:51,639 also had a a strange experience as well 368 00:16:49,079 --> 00:16:54,480 where we got robbed at gunpoint oh my 369 00:16:51,639 --> 00:16:56,199 god um we we we we entered this uh 370 00:16:54,480 --> 00:17:00,000 apartment on Breo and 371 00:16:56,199 --> 00:17:01,920 Broadway and uh I used to go to the uh 372 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,079 drama classes at Cari Hall and I was 373 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,640 doing some scene study with this girl 374 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:09,360 called Deborah Joe on a Sunday and we 375 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:12,480 would just sort of chatting and our 376 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:14,880 first son was sort of lying on the floor 377 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:17,480 and I heard this sort of 378 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,240 sniveling sound of sniveling coming down 379 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:24,559 the 380 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:27,400 hall and uh I saw Louise my wife um and 381 00:17:24,559 --> 00:17:29,400 she was she was sobbing and then this 382 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,640 guy stepped out from behind it and and 383 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,760 he goes like that with his hand and he 384 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,400 shows his gun and he says get down on 385 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,080 the 386 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:42,039 floor and then he says not you you get 387 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,760 up um tie them up so I'm looking for 388 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:46,000 stuff to tie them up so I rip out a 389 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,440 phone wire I tie them up and then he 390 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:51,120 takes me and we go from room to room 391 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,559 looking for shiny stuff and all the time 392 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:55,520 I'm kind of thinking you know do I make 393 00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:57,240 a move do I not and then we go into the 394 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:00,240 room where Deborah Joe's tied up Louise 395 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:03,240 is tied up um he gets deborra Joe to tie 396 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,760 my legs up and he says uh yeah I'm going 397 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,720 to kill you where's where's the rest of 398 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:11,600 the stuff and we there's no more stuff 399 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:14,000 and then he uh disappears did they find 400 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,440 the perpetrator I don't know cuz we we 401 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:19,720 had a couple of um we had a couple of 402 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:22,919 guys go go around with us who were armed 403 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:24,760 for the next period that we were there 404 00:18:22,919 --> 00:18:26,320 cuz I didn't know if they'd Rec if the 405 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,880 guy had recognized me if he was part of 406 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,799 a gang if he was going to come back you 407 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,720 know steal the bait you know we we 408 00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:35,080 didn't know what was going on at all uh 409 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,240 acting 410 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:42,559 was uh an interesting Avenue down which 411 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:45,280 you went not that many front men in in 412 00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:48,480 bands uh have done that did you get a 413 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:52,159 different kind of satisfaction from that 414 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:55,159 I sort of started out doing drama really 415 00:18:52,159 --> 00:18:57,440 before music before music I mean when I 416 00:18:55,159 --> 00:18:59,880 moved to London it was I was thinking 417 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,679 about going to drama school but then you 418 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:05,039 had to uh audition and you have to pay 419 00:19:02,679 --> 00:19:07,679 for auditions and you have to audition 420 00:19:05,039 --> 00:19:10,440 in more than one place whereas if to do 421 00:19:07,679 --> 00:19:12,640 music you just sort of you're with a two 422 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,200 or three people you say you're a group 423 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,880 and you are cuz you say you are yeah 424 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,720 that's and then you can you know you can 425 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:23,080 go out and do gigs much much it's it's 426 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,919 more easy than to put on a um you know 427 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:28,280 production 428 00:19:24,919 --> 00:19:30,720 so yeah although you know I thought I'd 429 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:33,200 do music music and then go on to drama 430 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:36,240 it was kind of music just sort of took 431 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:40,120 off really well you were uh 432 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:43,080 stratospheric uh uh for a period uh your 433 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:45,480 music was absolutely everywhere I've 434 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:48,960 just been playing She Drives Me Crazy uh 435 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,840 in the car uh and remembering that once 436 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,679 upon a time you know I would sing that 437 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,919 every day every time it it came on the 438 00:19:53,679 --> 00:19:58,799 on on the radio so you're back on the 439 00:19:55,919 --> 00:20:02,039 road you've recently played London and 440 00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:04,120 Birmingham what's next well we did sort 441 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:07,039 of three Christmas shows sort of three 442 00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:10,440 Christmas crackers we call them and at 443 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:12,919 each show we've recorded the show um 444 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:16,520 record not not visually just just the um 445 00:20:12,919 --> 00:20:18,880 the music yeah and that'll be for a live 446 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,360 album um we we'll see what we've got 447 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,320 from the three shows you know we might 448 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:25,679 be able to get one album just from one 449 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:28,640 show which would be great but we can use 450 00:20:25,679 --> 00:20:31,760 bits of different shows and that will be 451 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:34,120 for a live album um next year any idea 452 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:37,760 when next year I mean no I me you should 453 00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:39,320 put it in the diary I tell you uh I mean 454 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,520 you have been away a long time but you 455 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:45,000 haven't lost anything uh having heard 456 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:48,280 you now you haven't lost anything at 457 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,080 all so when when can we buy it yeah four 458 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:53,159 month well vinyl I think vinyl is very 459 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,880 popular I think people of my generation 460 00:20:53,159 --> 00:20:56,440 definitely it's got to be vinyl I was 461 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,679 going to say that to you forget all this 462 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:01,440 download stuff that's very last year I 463 00:20:58,679 --> 00:21:04,360 think people want to have a thing 464 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:07,280 they Roland gift thanks for coming on 465 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:10,799 the sputnic and as a special Christmas 466 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:14,679 gift from us on the Sputnik we give you 467 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:17,159 Roland Lee gift and his friends the song 468 00:21:14,679 --> 00:21:19,550 is I'm not the man I used to be but 469 00:21:17,159 --> 00:21:39,120 trust me he is 470 00:21:19,550 --> 00:21:41,320 [Music] 471 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:43,159 when I'm in 472 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,390 [Music] 473 00:21:43,159 --> 00:21:47,679 trouble I out of 474 00:21:45,390 --> 00:21:51,480 [Music] 475 00:21:47,679 --> 00:21:51,480 Step if my 476 00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:56,840 balance has been 477 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,680 [Music] 478 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,600 upset are there's 479 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,720 [Music] 480 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:08,640 feeling I can't 481 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,640 accept there's one 482 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:13,919 thing helps me to 483 00:22:12,690 --> 00:22:16,630 [Music] 484 00:22:13,919 --> 00:22:18,640 forget wonder what she's 485 00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:22,799 [Music] 486 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:28,240 thinking wonder why I'm 487 00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:28,240 drinking but it's plain to see 488 00:22:28,799 --> 00:22:36,840 I'm not the man I used to 489 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,799 be if life were 490 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:43,080 [Music] 491 00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:43,080 easy and didn't 492 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:49,870 ask then tease 493 00:22:46,919 --> 00:22:52,200 me I take things 494 00:22:49,870 --> 00:22:54,250 [Music] 495 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,440 back I could 496 00:22:54,250 --> 00:22:58,800 [Music] 497 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,159 stop to understand 498 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,900 [Music] 499 00:23:01,159 --> 00:23:05,799 what makes 500 00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:09,200 [Music] 501 00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:13,480 me man I 502 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,480 am wonder what she 503 00:23:13,919 --> 00:23:22,520 thinking wonder why I'm 504 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,520 drinking but it's PL to 505 00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:30,880 see I'm not the man I used to be on oh 506 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:35,640 no such a 507 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,120 shame I can't 508 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:51,880 explain why I'm not the man I used to 509 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,880 be I've lost 510 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:57,279 days that won't come 511 00:23:55,390 --> 00:24:00,440 [Music] 512 00:23:57,279 --> 00:24:00,440 back Miss 513 00:24:01,679 --> 00:24:05,799 memories fing 514 00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:10,240 fast now I should 515 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:18,279 say the ones I 516 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,279 have watch the 517 00:24:18,679 --> 00:24:23,200 use when most of 518 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:29,440 them wonder what she's thinking 519 00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:32,520 [Laughter] 520 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:37,039 wonder why I'm 521 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:37,039 drinking but it's plain to 522 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:46,480 see I'm not the man I you no no no I'm 523 00:24:44,919 --> 00:24:51,159 not the 524 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:56,200 man it's such a shame I'm not the 525 00:24:51,159 --> 00:24:59,000 man I can't explain I'm not the 526 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:03,799 man what I'm not 527 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:05,000 man I used to be don't know my name I'm 528 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:09,840 not 529 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:15,200 the you know my name I'm not the 530 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:18,279 man can you help me S I'm not the 531 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:22,760 man I'm not the 532 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:22,760 man I used to 533 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,000 be just 534 00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:31,919 fantastic you really are the man you 535 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:35,039 used to to be and that is it I'm afraid 536 00:25:31,919 --> 00:25:38,720 and All That Remains is for us on behalf 537 00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:40,600 of Sputnik to wish you a Merry Christmas 538 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,600 Merry Christmas everybody happy 539 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,600 Christmas 540 00:25:47,010 --> 00:25:50,059 [Music] 541 00:25:53,470 --> 00:25:56,529 [Music]