[Music]
Okay. I can't
[Music]
Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Gayatri.
Few Labour MPs have been loyal to their
leader Jeremy Corbin and even some of
his shadow cabinet are far from steady.
Only this week several shadow cabinet
members told the Guardian that they
wanted to change the party's line and
block the triggering of Article 50 and
block Brexit. At the time of writing,
these new inner circle rebels, said to
include, at least by the Guardian, his
closest colleagues, are still in post,
despite telling a national newspaper
that they think their boss has got it
wrong again. From my own observations,
Corbin's only sound person in the shadow
cabinet is the shadow secretary of state
for justice, Richard Bergen. Sometimes
spoken of himself as a future Labor
leader. I'm glad to say he joins us now.
But before that, Guyatri took her red
gloves onto the streets of London to ask
the public what they thought of how
Jeremy was doing. Oh, it's a difficult
one. You know, I really I I really
struggle to, you know, I just think that
you just don't hear from Corbyn. And you
don't hear from Corbyn enough. And as
the leader of the opposition, you know,
where is he? And I know there's lots of
criticism that that's about the media
and that's about the media not being
particularly interested in him or him
being a charact well not a character but
him being a perhaps um not terribly
interesting or charismatic. I think um
all of the policies that he's saying and
he's going to say are definitely down my
street. I think they're all everything I
agree with. Uh the issue is does he come
across as a leader? Uh, is his
personality strong enough against say
Theresa May, something like that?
Possibly not. And I think he needs to
kind of build that. Politics at the
moment is a popularity contest, so he
needs to kind of win the the popular
vote in that sense. I think he's a hard
person to follow, but I think he's a
genuine person, if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely. So, while I think he's
genuine, I don't think he'll ever get
elected because he doesn't have a lot of
leadership characteristics.
Somewhat maligned, but uh I don't
personally
uh like him
particularly, and I don't think he's
going to lead the Labor Party to great
success, but I don't think he's much
worse than their previous leaders.
Well, there you go. Not much worse than
Ed Milliband. Not exactly high praise.
Now we have some clue as to how this
situation comes about in the BBC trust
condemning Laura Kunberg for inaccuracy
and for misleading. Uh and this of
course is a tiny criticism of a giant
problem. The London School of Economics
survey shows that
75% of the media coverage of Jeremy
Corbin is willfully mis I say willfully
misleading and definitely completely
inaccurate. How's he going to tackle
that? Well, it's no surprise that the
media establishment or much of it are
setting out to demonize Jeremy Corbyn,
not because he is Jeremy Corbyn, but
because he's standing for socialist
politics. And anybody who goes against
the establishment interests will face
the eye of the Westminster
establishment, the establishment in the
media and establishment elsewhere. But
what Jeremy Corbyn has now got to do and
what I believe he can do is articulate a
populist breadand butter socialist
politics which talks about raising the
living standards of the lower earners,
the middle earners, and even some who
consider themselves to be relatively
well off as well.
Trump faced uh almost complete more than
75% opposition in the US media and he
won and he did that by going around the
media in fact sthing through them uh on
on occasion. Is there something in that
lesson that Jeremy Corbin can take?
There's not much you can do about the
privatelyowned media, but the BBC, it's
unconscionable that the BBC, a state
broadcaster paid for by the public on
pain of imprisonment, uh should be
allowed to willfully misrepresent and uh
completely inaccurately report on the
leader of her majesty's opposition.
What's regrettable is that many of the
news outlets rather than seeking as they
should do including the BBC to report
the news are trying to create the news.
Uh and this leads not to proper scrutiny
of politicians, not to proper serious
discussion of policy but uh news uh
reporters and interviewers trying to
trap a politician into saying this or
saying that, saying they don't agree
with a colleague on this, saying they
don't agree with a colleague on that.
And the newspapers and the media should
realize they're there to report the
news. They're not there to create the
news or or be the news. What I do
differentiate uh is between uh some
reporters and other reporters like
Andrew Neil for example. What I would
say about Andrew Neil is whatever his
private politics are, he gives everyone
a hard time and that's fair enough. But
what we don't want is uh some people in
the media choosing only to give the
leader of one political party a hard
time. Quite sure. So the other side of
media is this investigative journalism
of Al Jazera that you know revealed this
basically a plot yeah a plot by a
foreign power into the Labor party but
that's another disgrace. It was a very
interesting uh program indeed. And I
think perhaps the most disturbing part
of the program was where a decent
ordinary Labour party member called
Jean. It didn't show her surname. Um she
was shown really uh being in my view
what looked like being fitted up uh for
an untrue allegation of anti-semitism
because the program showed um the
incident about which the complaint was
made and the complaint itself. And there
were significant differences between the
incident and the incident as described
in the complaint itself. None of this
would be possible of course, sorry to
press you on this, without the fifth
column that has been operating in your
workplace in parliament. Is there any
sign that that's calming down? I think
most Labor MPs are now getting on with
the job they're elected to do, which is
the job of representing their
constituents and holding the
Conservative government to account and
standing up for a Labor alternative. In
the past, um, there were real problems,
as you've seen, in people forgetting
what they're elected to do, uh, and
taking internal Labour Party
disagreements out very publicly and
making it, uh, their business or what
seemed like their life's work to attack
the elected leader of the Labour Party.
I think since the second election of
Jeremy Corbyn, the vast majority of
Labour MPs, virtually all of whom now,
by the way, accept anti- austerity
politics and anti-ostusterity economics,
are now rolling up the sleeves and
getting on with the job they're elected
to do. And that makes Labor and that
makes Jeremy Corbyn stronger. will
accept those that this week uh told the
Guardian and the Guardian says they
might be lying wouldn't be the first
time that they included uh some of
Jeremy's closest colleagues in the
shadow cabinet who told the Guardian
that they were trying to change the
party's line on Brexit in advance of a
bi-election in Stoke on Trent against
the leader of UKIP in a constituency
that almost 70% voted Brexit it. Now,
I'm glad to say that Corbin seems to
have cracked down quite hard on that.
But it's come to something, isn't it?
When when shadow cabinet members who
presumably are the only people in the PL
that ought to be able to be relied upon
uh are briefing the newspapers that
they're trying something so potentially
destabilizing as this. Well, I think
people have got to understand that um
unconditional worship of the European
Union plus getting involved in
interventionist uh wars doesn't amount
to internationalism. I think some people
have made a mistake in all parties on
that uh in the past. But Jeremy's
position on the European Union and the
outcome of the referendum is correct.
For me, it's a matter of democratic
principle that Britain should leave the
European Union because Britain voted to
leave the European uh union. Uh Jeremy
Corbyn has made that clear since 23rd of
June. And to now uh if anyone is
considering a Uturn on that, not only
would it be the morally and
democratically wrong thing to do, it
would also make the Labour party look uh
rather foolish. It is uh a paradox that
those who followed a former leader Tony
Blair most closely and Mr. Blair himself
could be described I don't think he
would demar as a euro file a man in love
with the European Union. Yet his closest
followers in parliament are now
attacking Jeremy Corbyn uh from a
euroskeepic position uh visav so-called
free movement of labor which of course
affects working people in uh many
constituencies almost all labor MPs are
sitting in constituencies that voted to
leave the European Union. Is this just
pure opportunism uh on their part or
have they genuinely become persuaded
that the free movement clauses have to
be removed? Well, I think some people
who believe uh in free markets economics
um would not previously accept that
there was any possible problem with the
free movement of labor uh in uh uh
Europe across countries with different
uh levels uh of economy. Uh now I think
electoral reality has hit many people
but also people have heard the accounts
they've heard the accounts of the way
people like Mike Ashley at Sports Direct
have behaved. They've heard accounts for
example of jobs in warehouses in
Yorkshire only being advertised uh in
Eastern uh Europe and it's quite right
that Jeremy Corbyn has spoken out uh
against this. Some people have
criticized him for speaking out against
unscrupulous bosses using the freement
of labor in an attempt to drive down
terms and conditions. People who think
it's not socialist to say this are quite
wrong. It's not socialist to not say it.
And it's quite right that Jeremy Corbyn
has spoken out about that. Qu uh
lastly, he's not
yet up to the pace. Uh the polls are not
good. Although this week actually there
have been a few glimmers of hope with
this new some call it populist turn. Can
he catch up? Is there enough time to
catch up? Well, I think we've got to see
Labour's position in the polls not about
one individual and not even about the
people in the shadow cabinet or the
people in the parliamentary Labor Party.
We have to see it in the political
context across Europe of all socialist
and social democratic parties being in
crisis. In fact, I think there's only
one political party of the left in
Europe uh that is ahead of Labor uh in
the polls in their respective uh
countries. So, it's a great challenge
all left of center social and social
democratic parties uh are facing. I
believe Jeremy's arguments, Jeremy's
popularization of breadandbut arguments,
73% of the population agree in taking
the railways back into public ownership.
For example, the majority of the
population agree with this idea of a
wage ratio to reduce the grotesque
levels of inequality in our society. I
believe it is possible for us to win at
the next general election, but nobody
said it was going to be easy and it was
never going to be easy. Richard Bergen,
thanks for joining us on the Sputnik.
Coming up after the break is Jeremy
Corbin's sternest critic, John McTurnon.
Don't miss it.
[Music]
Welcome back to Sputnik. Don't say we
don't seek balance on board this
spaceship because our next guest is
Jeremy Corbin's most consistent,
prolific, and I'd say most effective
critic. He's John McTurnon, formerly of
my own Scottish parish and former
Downing Street advisor to Tony Blair.
John, thanks for coming back uh on the
Sputnik. Before we turn to Corbin, which
I promise you we shall, uh, let me take
advantage of your Scottish experience.
Here we have now Nicholas Sturgeon more
or less boxing herself into a corner for
another independence referendum.
Otherwise, having marched her people up
the hill twice, she'd have to uh march
herself down again. uh
and pegging the Scottish referendum to
the question of the EU. Now, we both
know Scotland well. We know that the EU
is not nearly as popular as Nicholas
Sturgeon thinks it is, especially the
issue of free movement. I never met any
Scot that wants all of Bulgaria and
Romania to head for uh for Glasgow. Um
why has she done it? I think she's
trapped. She's trapped by two things.
One is her party wanting it and the
other is she's trapped in a way like
most leaders are by their predecessor.
So Salmon got close but didn't get over
the line. So she feels she has to go on
better and have the referendum and get
over the line. Her problem is she has
misinterpreted why they lost. Uh she
looked at Sam and thought he lost the
argument on the pound. Therefore they've
got to have a policy on the pound.
Therefore the European Union works in a
way because it guarantees your currency
the euro eventually. But she's going to
find out that the euro is no more
popular in Scotland than it is in
England. She's going to find that the
white working-class voters in Glasgow
and Dundee uh in the schemes in
Edinburgh, they don't want free
movement. They don't want uh to see, you
know, let's leave the UK just at a time
when the UK is going to clamp down
immigration so we can get all the
migrants who want to come from Europe.
It's not the greatest campaign you could
have in the world. No. I mean, uh, I
know of no campaign organizer that would
relish that, uh, prospect. So, do you
agree with me that actually it's a
harder cell Scottish independence second
time round than it was first? Yeah, I
think so. I mean, I think the oil prices
collapsed, which kind of gives you a big
question mark over the uh the economics.
Um, because the oil price collapsed,
it's very clear how much is transferred
from the UK to Scotland. Uh, it's around
15 billion pounds a year. there's a net
of 10 billion pounds maybe um once you
take into account that you could run a
deficit, you could do you could have
borrowing as a government. Now what
you're going to do uh is effectively say
leave a fiscal union that transfers 10
billion pounds a year to you and join a
customs union that doesn't transfer
anything to you and actually charges you
charges 1 or2 billion pounds a year if
you look at the British contribution
praa. So Scotland would be paying to
join a customs union and losing 10
billion pounds. That is a really hard
sell on top of the euro on top of uh
free movement. And the core argument is
we've got to we've got to leave the
biggest single market that we sell our
goods and services to the UK to join
another single market. So where's the
logic? Where's the driver of all this?
Where's the thing that goes the British
single market? They sell four times more
than to the European single market.
Yeah, it's financial services are sold
internally much more than externally. Do
you think the current prime minister
thinks along these lines and actually
will grant her this opportunity to just
to teach her a lesson? It's really
interesting. I think that that that um
Theresa May has said Scotland had its
referendum. You had the you had the
chance. You had your referendum. You
lost it. And there's part of me that
wonders whether Nicholas Sturgeon is
pushing hard to be stopped. She's like
that guy in the bar that goes for a
fight in hopes that they hold me back.
hold me back that she cuz what she
really wants is not told the referendum
cuz she must understand like you and I
do like we all do that she'd lose it. So
she's trying to have it and wants to not
have not not be allowed to have it. Then
she's got a grievance. It's perfect. You
don't have to have a vote. You lose. But
you've got a grievance. You can say the
English wouldn't let me. Well, given
this is chess, not draft. The sensible
thing for the British state to do is to
say yes, let's have a referendum. And
that's certainly what I'm uh campaigning
for. Let me turn then to Labor Party
matters. You uh from the beginning uh
have been absolutely consistent that
Labor under Jeremy Corbin is going
nowhere uh except downwards uh in the
polls. There's some patchy evidence one
way or another on that point. But uh it
would have to be acknowledged that Labor
has a long way to go before it's in with
a fighting chance uh against this
government. And yet, as you said on this
very sofa a long time ago, there's no
real alternative. There's no alternative
project. There's no alternative
candidate. And therefore, it's a bit of
a irresistible force, immovable object.
And what's the result of that?
So, it's clear uh if it wasn't before
that the Corbin project is to purify the
Labor Party. Uh like many on the far
left, his real anger is not at the
Tories. His anger is at uh moderates
inside the Labor Party. That's where
that's who that's the people who get the
real abuse, the real venom. That's the
people who get told that they're Tories.
And if you think about it logically, and
I said this at Labor Party conference at
various fringe meetings, you know, I'm
not a Tory. I said that and some people
in the audience booed at me and shout
said I wasn't. It's like seriously if
you call me a Tory. What do you say to a
Labour voter in Stoke or in Copeland
who's thinking of voting Tory or UKIP?
You don't win somebody back now. I'm a
Labor party member. I'm not a Tory. But
once but you're trying to purge me. Once
you purge and purify the party, what
have you got left? 20% of the vote.
Maybe that's the core. You can't push
Labor down below. And that that is a
that's the problem with the Corbin
project. It's a project always about
maintaining control over the Labor
Party. It's not a project for winning
power in the country. And the tragedy is
there isn't an alternative project uh as
I said to you before within the Labor
Party. And yet any politician who is
able to say I can I've got a program for
building houses and enabling younger
workers to buy them. I've got a program
for enabling today's workers to have
build up a decent pension for
retirement. And I've got a program for
social care fully funded to ensure that
our older people can live in dignity uh
with independence, not to have to stay
in hospital. can be at home, they can be
supported properly with social care. Um,
if you had that program of housing of
pensions of social care, you could sweep
the board because the Tories don't have
that program. The Liberal Democrats
don't have that program. Labor don't
have it. So, it's the ideal kind of
middle ground, uh, middle England,
middle Scotland, middle Wales type
middle class appeal. Um, but goodness
knows where all the thinking in the
Labor Party is actually gone. But it's
not being expressed on the backbenches.
It's not being expressed in the think
tanks. You say that, John, but actually
there's not a lot of evidence that he's
doing much purifying. He certainly
hasn't brought me back. He hasn't
brought Ken Livingston back. He hasn't
done partly because he can't uh anything
about uh deselections or reelections
uh or anything uh like that isn't a
bigger problem. You you identify this as
a problem. isn't a bigger problem that
he's neither one thing nor the other and
maybe can't be one thing or the other.
Not able to reach out, not able to uh
remodel the the Labor Party itself.
Look, I think the I think the relaunch
was really interesting. The relaunch of
Corbin was interesting. Uh the idea was
let Corbin be Corbin.
Now, to be honest, that's all he's got.
His attraction to the new the new
members of the Labour party, the large
uh influx of new members. His attraction
to them is not a politician like all the
rest. Uh his attraction is his
authenticity. His attraction is that
he's not the he's not a polished
performer. He's beyond spin in some way.
He's kind of uh and and that if you
wanted to promote him would probably
what you'd have to focus on. You have to
say he's not like all the rest. But when
he relaunched, he didn't talk about
immigration, though he briefed he was
going to talk about immigration and free
movement. He then thought up a new
policy about wage caps. By the middle of
the day, he was going, "Yeah, probably
footballers are paid too much." By the
end of the day, he thought that might be
unpopular, so he stopped saying it.
Well, I think, and you probably think,
too, he's in favor of capping wages.
Well, why not say that? And if people
ask you how you do it, you say, "Let us
into government and we'll do it." and
you ride a tide of populist outrage. You
do a Trumpian thing. You go, "They're
paid too much. I'll stop it." Trump's
never given any detail about how he's
going to do stuff. Just says it'll
happen. But the Corbin thing, he he's
caught in a no man's land between being
prepared for interviews uh and being
himself. Uh and I think maybe Corbin
can't be Corbin because the thing he
really is is an oppositionalist. He's
happy in small groups and small group
hustles. He's happy being against the
leadership. He's kind of he'd be happier
campaigning against himself than he is
being himself. Um because the the
leadership doesn't sit doesn't sit well
with him. Now, I can't have you here
without uh mentioning uh uh uh your
friend and my enemy Tony Blair. He's
coming back into politics. Got a big uh
war chest 10 million pounds. we read uh
paradoxically he's really fighting the
Brexit just as some of his supporters
are cottoning on one imagines genuinely
that actually many aspects of the EU are
really unpopular in their own
constituencies how's that going to work
uh Tony Blair saying we should stay in
the single market and by implication
keep free movement whilst the Blair
rights uh are discovering ing that
actually free movement is what done for
the EU in Britain. Well, I mean, in the
end, as you know, the historic role of
social democracy has always been to save
capitalism from itself. Now, in the face
of Brexit, which is the most profoundly
anti- capitalist move that um uh a Tory
party's ever made, you know, Margaret
Thatcher's greatest achievement in
economics was the single European
market. And now, um uh Theresa May wants
to wants to pull pull pull out of that.
So you've got a situation where the
banks, hospitality industry,
agriculture, farming, huge industries in
Britain, manufacturing as well, all need
to be in the single market, all need the
free movement of labor that's available
through the single market. And the Tory
party set their face against it. So in a
funny kind of way, Tony Blair not only
wants to speak up for those in the
country who are remainers who want the
voice, he's actually the only person
speaking up for capitalism within the
UK. Um, and you know, my hope in the
end, uh, is that if anybody can rescue
the UK and the Labor Party, it will be
International Finance Capital because
it's got to stand up for itself
somewhere somehow, hasn't it? As Mrs.
Thatcho once said, it's a funny old
world. It's a funny old world and it
would be a funny old Labor Party and a
funny old capitalist system in those
circumstances. John McTurnon, always a
pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for
joining us on the Sputnik.
[Music]
And now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media. What's rattling guy? So this week
we asked uh what Jeremy could and should
do in the face of this biased and
willfully inaccurate media. Arthur
Cherrostovski says commanding Europe's
largest progressive party, he's
virtually powerless. Whereas Scotty 500
says learn from Donald Trump. Take to
Twitter. And John McCormack says, "Well,
what Arnold Schwarzenegger would do,
strike back." That's all very good. Uh
he he does have to do that. Uh we're not
going to get fairness in the British
media. No. Uh but uh did Trump win the
election on Twitter and on Facebook and
on his own? The answer to that is yes.
And that's all the time we have for the
tweets this week, which alas means
that's the end of the show, but you can
stay in touch with us on Twitter and now
on Instagram, RT Sputnik, or Facebook.
Sputnik on Russia Today. It's goodbye
from me, Gayatri. And from me, George
Galloway. It's been marvelous.
[Music]