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Okay. I can't

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[Music]

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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me Gayatri.

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Few Labour MPs have been loyal to their

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leader Jeremy Corbin and even some of

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his shadow cabinet are far from steady.

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Only this week several shadow cabinet

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members told the Guardian that they

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wanted to change the party's line and

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block the triggering of Article 50 and

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block Brexit. At the time of writing,

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these new inner circle rebels, said to

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include, at least by the Guardian, his

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closest colleagues, are still in post,

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despite telling a national newspaper

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that they think their boss has got it

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wrong again. From my own observations,

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Corbin's only sound person in the shadow

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cabinet is the shadow secretary of state

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for justice, Richard Bergen. Sometimes

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spoken of himself as a future Labor

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leader. I'm glad to say he joins us now.

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But before that, Guyatri took her red

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gloves onto the streets of London to ask

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the public what they thought of how

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Jeremy was doing. Oh, it's a difficult

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one. You know, I really I I really

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struggle to, you know, I just think that

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you just don't hear from Corbyn. And you

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don't hear from Corbyn enough. And as

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the leader of the opposition, you know,

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where is he? And I know there's lots of

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criticism that that's about the media

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and that's about the media not being

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particularly interested in him or him

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being a charact well not a character but

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him being a perhaps um not terribly

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interesting or charismatic. I think um

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all of the policies that he's saying and

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he's going to say are definitely down my

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street. I think they're all everything I

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agree with. Uh the issue is does he come

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across as a leader? Uh, is his

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personality strong enough against say

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Theresa May, something like that?

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Possibly not. And I think he needs to

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kind of build that. Politics at the

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moment is a popularity contest, so he

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needs to kind of win the the popular

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vote in that sense. I think he's a hard

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person to follow, but I think he's a

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genuine person, if that makes sense.

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Yeah, absolutely. So, while I think he's

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genuine, I don't think he'll ever get

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elected because he doesn't have a lot of

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leadership characteristics.

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Somewhat maligned, but uh I don't

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personally

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uh like him

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particularly, and I don't think he's

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going to lead the Labor Party to great

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success, but I don't think he's much

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worse than their previous leaders.

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Well, there you go. Not much worse than

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Ed Milliband. Not exactly high praise.

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Now we have some clue as to how this

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situation comes about in the BBC trust

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condemning Laura Kunberg for inaccuracy

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and for misleading. Uh and this of

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course is a tiny criticism of a giant

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problem. The London School of Economics

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survey shows that

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75% of the media coverage of Jeremy

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Corbin is willfully mis I say willfully

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misleading and definitely completely

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inaccurate. How's he going to tackle

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that? Well, it's no surprise that the

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media establishment or much of it are

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setting out to demonize Jeremy Corbyn,

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not because he is Jeremy Corbyn, but

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because he's standing for socialist

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politics. And anybody who goes against

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the establishment interests will face

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the eye of the Westminster

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establishment, the establishment in the

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media and establishment elsewhere. But

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what Jeremy Corbyn has now got to do and

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what I believe he can do is articulate a

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populist breadand butter socialist

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politics which talks about raising the

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living standards of the lower earners,

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the middle earners, and even some who

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consider themselves to be relatively

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well off as well.

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Trump faced uh almost complete more than

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75% opposition in the US media and he

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won and he did that by going around the

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media in fact sthing through them uh on

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on occasion. Is there something in that

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lesson that Jeremy Corbin can take?

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There's not much you can do about the

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privatelyowned media, but the BBC, it's

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unconscionable that the BBC, a state

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broadcaster paid for by the public on

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pain of imprisonment, uh should be

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allowed to willfully misrepresent and uh

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completely inaccurately report on the

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leader of her majesty's opposition.

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What's regrettable is that many of the

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news outlets rather than seeking as they

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should do including the BBC to report

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the news are trying to create the news.

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Uh and this leads not to proper scrutiny

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of politicians, not to proper serious

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discussion of policy but uh news uh

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reporters and interviewers trying to

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trap a politician into saying this or

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saying that, saying they don't agree

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with a colleague on this, saying they

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don't agree with a colleague on that.

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And the newspapers and the media should

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realize they're there to report the

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news. They're not there to create the

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news or or be the news. What I do

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differentiate uh is between uh some

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reporters and other reporters like

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Andrew Neil for example. What I would

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say about Andrew Neil is whatever his

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private politics are, he gives everyone

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a hard time and that's fair enough. But

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what we don't want is uh some people in

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the media choosing only to give the

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leader of one political party a hard

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time. Quite sure. So the other side of

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media is this investigative journalism

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of Al Jazera that you know revealed this

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basically a plot yeah a plot by a

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foreign power into the Labor party but

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that's another disgrace. It was a very

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interesting uh program indeed. And I

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think perhaps the most disturbing part

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of the program was where a decent

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ordinary Labour party member called

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Jean. It didn't show her surname. Um she

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was shown really uh being in my view

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what looked like being fitted up uh for

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an untrue allegation of anti-semitism

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because the program showed um the

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incident about which the complaint was

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made and the complaint itself. And there

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were significant differences between the

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incident and the incident as described

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in the complaint itself. None of this

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would be possible of course, sorry to

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press you on this, without the fifth

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column that has been operating in your

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workplace in parliament. Is there any

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sign that that's calming down? I think

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most Labor MPs are now getting on with

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the job they're elected to do, which is

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the job of representing their

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constituents and holding the

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Conservative government to account and

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standing up for a Labor alternative. In

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the past, um, there were real problems,

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as you've seen, in people forgetting

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what they're elected to do, uh, and

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taking internal Labour Party

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disagreements out very publicly and

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making it, uh, their business or what

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seemed like their life's work to attack

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the elected leader of the Labour Party.

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I think since the second election of

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Jeremy Corbyn, the vast majority of

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Labour MPs, virtually all of whom now,

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by the way, accept anti- austerity

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politics and anti-ostusterity economics,

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are now rolling up the sleeves and

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getting on with the job they're elected

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to do. And that makes Labor and that

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makes Jeremy Corbyn stronger. will

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accept those that this week uh told the

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Guardian and the Guardian says they

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might be lying wouldn't be the first

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time that they included uh some of

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Jeremy's closest colleagues in the

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shadow cabinet who told the Guardian

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that they were trying to change the

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party's line on Brexit in advance of a

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bi-election in Stoke on Trent against

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the leader of UKIP in a constituency

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that almost 70% voted Brexit it. Now,

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I'm glad to say that Corbin seems to

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have cracked down quite hard on that.

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But it's come to something, isn't it?

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When when shadow cabinet members who

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presumably are the only people in the PL

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that ought to be able to be relied upon

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uh are briefing the newspapers that

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they're trying something so potentially

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destabilizing as this. Well, I think

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people have got to understand that um

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unconditional worship of the European

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Union plus getting involved in

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interventionist uh wars doesn't amount

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to internationalism. I think some people

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have made a mistake in all parties on

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that uh in the past. But Jeremy's

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position on the European Union and the

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outcome of the referendum is correct.

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For me, it's a matter of democratic

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principle that Britain should leave the

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European Union because Britain voted to

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leave the European uh union. Uh Jeremy

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Corbyn has made that clear since 23rd of

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June. And to now uh if anyone is

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considering a Uturn on that, not only

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would it be the morally and

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democratically wrong thing to do, it

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would also make the Labour party look uh

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rather foolish. It is uh a paradox that

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those who followed a former leader Tony

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Blair most closely and Mr. Blair himself

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could be described I don't think he

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would demar as a euro file a man in love

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with the European Union. Yet his closest

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followers in parliament are now

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attacking Jeremy Corbyn uh from a

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euroskeepic position uh visav so-called

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free movement of labor which of course

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affects working people in uh many

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constituencies almost all labor MPs are

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sitting in constituencies that voted to

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leave the European Union. Is this just

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pure opportunism uh on their part or

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have they genuinely become persuaded

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that the free movement clauses have to

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be removed? Well, I think some people

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who believe uh in free markets economics

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um would not previously accept that

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there was any possible problem with the

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free movement of labor uh in uh uh

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Europe across countries with different

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uh levels uh of economy. Uh now I think

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electoral reality has hit many people

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but also people have heard the accounts

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they've heard the accounts of the way

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people like Mike Ashley at Sports Direct

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have behaved. They've heard accounts for

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example of jobs in warehouses in

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Yorkshire only being advertised uh in

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Eastern uh Europe and it's quite right

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that Jeremy Corbyn has spoken out uh

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against this. Some people have

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criticized him for speaking out against

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unscrupulous bosses using the freement

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of labor in an attempt to drive down

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terms and conditions. People who think

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it's not socialist to say this are quite

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wrong. It's not socialist to not say it.

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And it's quite right that Jeremy Corbyn

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has spoken out about that. Qu uh

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lastly, he's not

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yet up to the pace. Uh the polls are not

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good. Although this week actually there

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have been a few glimmers of hope with

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this new some call it populist turn. Can

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he catch up? Is there enough time to

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catch up? Well, I think we've got to see

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Labour's position in the polls not about

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one individual and not even about the

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people in the shadow cabinet or the

275
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people in the parliamentary Labor Party.

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We have to see it in the political

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context across Europe of all socialist

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and social democratic parties being in

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crisis. In fact, I think there's only

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one political party of the left in

281
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Europe uh that is ahead of Labor uh in

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the polls in their respective uh

283
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countries. So, it's a great challenge

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all left of center social and social

285
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democratic parties uh are facing. I

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believe Jeremy's arguments, Jeremy's

287
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popularization of breadandbut arguments,

288
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73% of the population agree in taking

289
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,120
the railways back into public ownership.

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For example, the majority of the

291
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:36,720
population agree with this idea of a

292
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,720
wage ratio to reduce the grotesque

293
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,959
levels of inequality in our society. I

294
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believe it is possible for us to win at

295
00:12:40,959 --> 00:12:45,200
the next general election, but nobody

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said it was going to be easy and it was

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never going to be easy. Richard Bergen,

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thanks for joining us on the Sputnik.

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Coming up after the break is Jeremy

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Corbin's sternest critic, John McTurnon.

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Don't miss it.

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[Music]

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Welcome back to Sputnik. Don't say we

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don't seek balance on board this

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spaceship because our next guest is

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Jeremy Corbin's most consistent,

307
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prolific, and I'd say most effective

308
00:13:12,639 --> 00:13:17,839
critic. He's John McTurnon, formerly of

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my own Scottish parish and former

310
00:13:17,839 --> 00:13:22,480
Downing Street advisor to Tony Blair.

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John, thanks for coming back uh on the

312
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:28,000
Sputnik. Before we turn to Corbin, which

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00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:31,600
I promise you we shall, uh, let me take

314
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:35,040
advantage of your Scottish experience.

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Here we have now Nicholas Sturgeon more

316
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,760
or less boxing herself into a corner for

317
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:42,000
another independence referendum.

318
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,959
Otherwise, having marched her people up

319
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the hill twice, she'd have to uh march

320
00:13:44,959 --> 00:13:53,360
herself down again. uh

321
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and pegging the Scottish referendum to

322
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:59,040
the question of the EU. Now, we both

323
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know Scotland well. We know that the EU

324
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,440
is not nearly as popular as Nicholas

325
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,600
Sturgeon thinks it is, especially the

326
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,000
issue of free movement. I never met any

327
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:12,320
Scot that wants all of Bulgaria and

328
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,480
Romania to head for uh for Glasgow. Um

329
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,160
why has she done it? I think she's

330
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,320
trapped. She's trapped by two things.

331
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,399
One is her party wanting it and the

332
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,480
other is she's trapped in a way like

333
00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:24,639
most leaders are by their predecessor.

334
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,560
So Salmon got close but didn't get over

335
00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:28,000
the line. So she feels she has to go on

336
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,199
better and have the referendum and get

337
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:34,240
over the line. Her problem is she has

338
00:14:31,199 --> 00:14:35,839
misinterpreted why they lost. Uh she

339
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,639
looked at Sam and thought he lost the

340
00:14:35,839 --> 00:14:40,560
argument on the pound. Therefore they've

341
00:14:38,639 --> 00:14:42,560
got to have a policy on the pound.

342
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,079
Therefore the European Union works in a

343
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,000
way because it guarantees your currency

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the euro eventually. But she's going to

345
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,279
find out that the euro is no more

346
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,800
popular in Scotland than it is in

347
00:14:49,279 --> 00:14:52,399
England. She's going to find that the

348
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,959
white working-class voters in Glasgow

349
00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:56,720
and Dundee uh in the schemes in

350
00:14:54,959 --> 00:14:59,120
Edinburgh, they don't want free

351
00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:02,000
movement. They don't want uh to see, you

352
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,199
know, let's leave the UK just at a time

353
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,040
when the UK is going to clamp down

354
00:15:03,199 --> 00:15:06,800
immigration so we can get all the

355
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,720
migrants who want to come from Europe.

356
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,440
It's not the greatest campaign you could

357
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,760
have in the world. No. I mean, uh, I

358
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,480
know of no campaign organizer that would

359
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:19,360
relish that, uh, prospect. So, do you

360
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:22,800
agree with me that actually it's a

361
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,639
harder cell Scottish independence second

362
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,160
time round than it was first? Yeah, I

363
00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:27,519
think so. I mean, I think the oil prices

364
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,079
collapsed, which kind of gives you a big

365
00:15:27,519 --> 00:15:31,760
question mark over the uh the economics.

366
00:15:30,079 --> 00:15:33,360
Um, because the oil price collapsed,

367
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,720
it's very clear how much is transferred

368
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,399
from the UK to Scotland. Uh, it's around

369
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,680
15 billion pounds a year. there's a net

370
00:15:38,399 --> 00:15:42,959
of 10 billion pounds maybe um once you

371
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,240
take into account that you could run a

372
00:15:42,959 --> 00:15:47,440
deficit, you could do you could have

373
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:50,240
borrowing as a government. Now what

374
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:53,440
you're going to do uh is effectively say

375
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:55,519
leave a fiscal union that transfers 10

376
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,600
billion pounds a year to you and join a

377
00:15:55,519 --> 00:15:58,880
customs union that doesn't transfer

378
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,720
anything to you and actually charges you

379
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,399
charges 1 or2 billion pounds a year if

380
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,560
you look at the British contribution

381
00:16:02,399 --> 00:16:06,639
praa. So Scotland would be paying to

382
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,560
join a customs union and losing 10

383
00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:11,279
billion pounds. That is a really hard

384
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:15,279
sell on top of the euro on top of uh

385
00:16:11,279 --> 00:16:18,160
free movement. And the core argument is

386
00:16:15,279 --> 00:16:19,759
we've got to we've got to leave the

387
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,160
biggest single market that we sell our

388
00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:24,160
goods and services to the UK to join

389
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,000
another single market. So where's the

390
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,199
logic? Where's the driver of all this?

391
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,399
Where's the thing that goes the British

392
00:16:27,199 --> 00:16:32,560
single market? They sell four times more

393
00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:35,279
than to the European single market.

394
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:37,120
Yeah, it's financial services are sold

395
00:16:35,279 --> 00:16:38,560
internally much more than externally. Do

396
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,880
you think the current prime minister

397
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,880
thinks along these lines and actually

398
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,480
will grant her this opportunity to just

399
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,320
to teach her a lesson? It's really

400
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,480
interesting. I think that that that um

401
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,320
Theresa May has said Scotland had its

402
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,519
referendum. You had the you had the

403
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,279
chance. You had your referendum. You

404
00:16:51,519 --> 00:16:55,600
lost it. And there's part of me that

405
00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:57,839
wonders whether Nicholas Sturgeon is

406
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,600
pushing hard to be stopped. She's like

407
00:16:57,839 --> 00:17:01,440
that guy in the bar that goes for a

408
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,680
fight in hopes that they hold me back.

409
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,120
hold me back that she cuz what she

410
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,559
really wants is not told the referendum

411
00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:08,959
cuz she must understand like you and I

412
00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:11,439
do like we all do that she'd lose it. So

413
00:17:08,959 --> 00:17:12,799
she's trying to have it and wants to not

414
00:17:11,439 --> 00:17:14,799
have not not be allowed to have it. Then

415
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:16,079
she's got a grievance. It's perfect. You

416
00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:17,360
don't have to have a vote. You lose. But

417
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,799
you've got a grievance. You can say the

418
00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:20,880
English wouldn't let me. Well, given

419
00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:23,439
this is chess, not draft. The sensible

420
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:26,079
thing for the British state to do is to

421
00:17:23,439 --> 00:17:27,679
say yes, let's have a referendum. And

422
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:30,799
that's certainly what I'm uh campaigning

423
00:17:27,679 --> 00:17:34,320
for. Let me turn then to Labor Party

424
00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:37,440
matters. You uh from the beginning uh

425
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:40,880
have been absolutely consistent that

426
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:44,720
Labor under Jeremy Corbin is going

427
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:46,559
nowhere uh except downwards uh in the

428
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:50,080
polls. There's some patchy evidence one

429
00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:52,720
way or another on that point. But uh it

430
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,559
would have to be acknowledged that Labor

431
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:57,440
has a long way to go before it's in with

432
00:17:54,559 --> 00:17:59,440
a fighting chance uh against this

433
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:02,799
government. And yet, as you said on this

434
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:04,720
very sofa a long time ago, there's no

435
00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:06,600
real alternative. There's no alternative

436
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,720
project. There's no alternative

437
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:12,000
candidate. And therefore, it's a bit of

438
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:15,080
a irresistible force, immovable object.

439
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:19,679
And what's the result of that?

440
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:22,000
So, it's clear uh if it wasn't before

441
00:18:19,679 --> 00:18:24,559
that the Corbin project is to purify the

442
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,960
Labor Party. Uh like many on the far

443
00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:29,679
left, his real anger is not at the

444
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,600
Tories. His anger is at uh moderates

445
00:18:29,679 --> 00:18:32,799
inside the Labor Party. That's where

446
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,559
that's who that's the people who get the

447
00:18:32,799 --> 00:18:36,320
real abuse, the real venom. That's the

448
00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:37,840
people who get told that they're Tories.

449
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,280
And if you think about it logically, and

450
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,799
I said this at Labor Party conference at

451
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,120
various fringe meetings, you know, I'm

452
00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:44,640
not a Tory. I said that and some people

453
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:46,480
in the audience booed at me and shout

454
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,320
said I wasn't. It's like seriously if

455
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,320
you call me a Tory. What do you say to a

456
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,320
Labour voter in Stoke or in Copeland

457
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,080
who's thinking of voting Tory or UKIP?

458
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,080
You don't win somebody back now. I'm a

459
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,320
Labor party member. I'm not a Tory. But

460
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,760
once but you're trying to purge me. Once

461
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,360
you purge and purify the party, what

462
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,039
have you got left? 20% of the vote.

463
00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:05,280
Maybe that's the core. You can't push

464
00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:06,480
Labor down below. And that that is a

465
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,080
that's the problem with the Corbin

466
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,520
project. It's a project always about

467
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,440
maintaining control over the Labor

468
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:14,000
Party. It's not a project for winning

469
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,919
power in the country. And the tragedy is

470
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,440
there isn't an alternative project uh as

471
00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:20,480
I said to you before within the Labor

472
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:23,360
Party. And yet any politician who is

473
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:25,679
able to say I can I've got a program for

474
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:28,000
building houses and enabling younger

475
00:19:25,679 --> 00:19:29,840
workers to buy them. I've got a program

476
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,120
for enabling today's workers to have

477
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,360
build up a decent pension for

478
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:35,360
retirement. And I've got a program for

479
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,600
social care fully funded to ensure that

480
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:39,039
our older people can live in dignity uh

481
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,039
with independence, not to have to stay

482
00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:43,120
in hospital. can be at home, they can be

483
00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:44,799
supported properly with social care. Um,

484
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:46,799
if you had that program of housing of

485
00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:48,640
pensions of social care, you could sweep

486
00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:50,000
the board because the Tories don't have

487
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,600
that program. The Liberal Democrats

488
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,360
don't have that program. Labor don't

489
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,440
have it. So, it's the ideal kind of

490
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:57,600
middle ground, uh, middle England,

491
00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,480
middle Scotland, middle Wales type

492
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,440
middle class appeal. Um, but goodness

493
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,960
knows where all the thinking in the

494
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,400
Labor Party is actually gone. But it's

495
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,760
not being expressed on the backbenches.

496
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,160
It's not being expressed in the think

497
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,919
tanks. You say that, John, but actually

498
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,919
there's not a lot of evidence that he's

499
00:20:09,919 --> 00:20:13,440
doing much purifying. He certainly

500
00:20:11,919 --> 00:20:15,360
hasn't brought me back. He hasn't

501
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,720
brought Ken Livingston back. He hasn't

502
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:22,400
done partly because he can't uh anything

503
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:25,440
about uh deselections or reelections

504
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,679
uh or anything uh like that isn't a

505
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,880
bigger problem. You you identify this as

506
00:20:27,679 --> 00:20:33,039
a problem. isn't a bigger problem that

507
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,080
he's neither one thing nor the other and

508
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:39,120
maybe can't be one thing or the other.

509
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:42,240
Not able to reach out, not able to uh

510
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:43,840
remodel the the Labor Party itself.

511
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,200
Look, I think the I think the relaunch

512
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,440
was really interesting. The relaunch of

513
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:50,600
Corbin was interesting. Uh the idea was

514
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:53,919
let Corbin be Corbin.

515
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:56,320
Now, to be honest, that's all he's got.

516
00:20:53,919 --> 00:20:58,159
His attraction to the new the new

517
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,919
members of the Labour party, the large

518
00:20:58,159 --> 00:21:02,480
uh influx of new members. His attraction

519
00:20:59,919 --> 00:21:04,919
to them is not a politician like all the

520
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,880
rest. Uh his attraction is his

521
00:21:04,919 --> 00:21:08,400
authenticity. His attraction is that

522
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,640
he's not the he's not a polished

523
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:14,480
performer. He's beyond spin in some way.

524
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:16,880
He's kind of uh and and that if you

525
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,000
wanted to promote him would probably

526
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,000
what you'd have to focus on. You have to

527
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,799
say he's not like all the rest. But when

528
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,480
he relaunched, he didn't talk about

529
00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:26,159
immigration, though he briefed he was

530
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,400
going to talk about immigration and free

531
00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:31,039
movement. He then thought up a new

532
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,400
policy about wage caps. By the middle of

533
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:34,000
the day, he was going, "Yeah, probably

534
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,600
footballers are paid too much." By the

535
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,480
end of the day, he thought that might be

536
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,320
unpopular, so he stopped saying it.

537
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:43,039
Well, I think, and you probably think,

538
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,200
too, he's in favor of capping wages.

539
00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:47,120
Well, why not say that? And if people

540
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,880
ask you how you do it, you say, "Let us

541
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,880
into government and we'll do it." and

542
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,559
you ride a tide of populist outrage. You

543
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,799
do a Trumpian thing. You go, "They're

544
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:56,080
paid too much. I'll stop it." Trump's

545
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:57,440
never given any detail about how he's

546
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,440
going to do stuff. Just says it'll

547
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,400
happen. But the Corbin thing, he he's

548
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,960
caught in a no man's land between being

549
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:08,960
prepared for interviews uh and being

550
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:11,039
himself. Uh and I think maybe Corbin

551
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,520
can't be Corbin because the thing he

552
00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:15,679
really is is an oppositionalist. He's

553
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,600
happy in small groups and small group

554
00:22:15,679 --> 00:22:20,480
hustles. He's happy being against the

555
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:23,039
leadership. He's kind of he'd be happier

556
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,679
campaigning against himself than he is

557
00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:27,440
being himself. Um because the the

558
00:22:25,679 --> 00:22:29,600
leadership doesn't sit doesn't sit well

559
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,960
with him. Now, I can't have you here

560
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:35,600
without uh mentioning uh uh uh your

561
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:39,360
friend and my enemy Tony Blair. He's

562
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:43,960
coming back into politics. Got a big uh

563
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:46,159
war chest 10 million pounds. we read uh

564
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:49,280
paradoxically he's really fighting the

565
00:22:46,159 --> 00:22:53,520
Brexit just as some of his supporters

566
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:55,840
are cottoning on one imagines genuinely

567
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,720
that actually many aspects of the EU are

568
00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:00,080
really unpopular in their own

569
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,799
constituencies how's that going to work

570
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,840
uh Tony Blair saying we should stay in

571
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:08,400
the single market and by implication

572
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,960
keep free movement whilst the Blair

573
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,960
rights uh are discovering ing that

574
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,559
actually free movement is what done for

575
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,880
the EU in Britain. Well, I mean, in the

576
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:20,799
end, as you know, the historic role of

577
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:24,000
social democracy has always been to save

578
00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:25,760
capitalism from itself. Now, in the face

579
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,640
of Brexit, which is the most profoundly

580
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,480
anti- capitalist move that um uh a Tory

581
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,320
party's ever made, you know, Margaret

582
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,679
Thatcher's greatest achievement in

583
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,880
economics was the single European

584
00:23:33,679 --> 00:23:39,200
market. And now, um uh Theresa May wants

585
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,919
to wants to pull pull pull out of that.

586
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,520
So you've got a situation where the

587
00:23:41,919 --> 00:23:46,159
banks, hospitality industry,

588
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,960
agriculture, farming, huge industries in

589
00:23:46,159 --> 00:23:50,559
Britain, manufacturing as well, all need

590
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,159
to be in the single market, all need the

591
00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:54,080
free movement of labor that's available

592
00:23:52,159 --> 00:23:56,000
through the single market. And the Tory

593
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,919
party set their face against it. So in a

594
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,120
funny kind of way, Tony Blair not only

595
00:23:57,919 --> 00:24:02,880
wants to speak up for those in the

596
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:04,480
country who are remainers who want the

597
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,799
voice, he's actually the only person

598
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,840
speaking up for capitalism within the

599
00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:12,480
UK. Um, and you know, my hope in the

600
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,640
end, uh, is that if anybody can rescue

601
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,640
the UK and the Labor Party, it will be

602
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,760
International Finance Capital because

603
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,640
it's got to stand up for itself

604
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,320
somewhere somehow, hasn't it? As Mrs.

605
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,159
Thatcho once said, it's a funny old

606
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,640
world. It's a funny old world and it

607
00:24:24,159 --> 00:24:28,880
would be a funny old Labor Party and a

608
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,640
funny old capitalist system in those

609
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,320
circumstances. John McTurnon, always a

610
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,470
pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for

611
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:37,120
joining us on the Sputnik.

612
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:38,799
[Music]

613
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,799
And now it's your turn to tell us what

614
00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:43,760
you think through the portals of social

615
00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:46,240
media. What's rattling guy? So this week

616
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,559
we asked uh what Jeremy could and should

617
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:51,880
do in the face of this biased and

618
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:54,720
willfully inaccurate media. Arthur

619
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,720
Cherrostovski says commanding Europe's

620
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,679
largest progressive party, he's

621
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:02,559
virtually powerless. Whereas Scotty 500

622
00:24:59,679 --> 00:25:05,520
says learn from Donald Trump. Take to

623
00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:07,440
Twitter. And John McCormack says, "Well,

624
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,640
what Arnold Schwarzenegger would do,

625
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:13,279
strike back." That's all very good. Uh

626
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,120
he he does have to do that. Uh we're not

627
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:20,000
going to get fairness in the British

628
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:22,720
media. No. Uh but uh did Trump win the

629
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,279
election on Twitter and on Facebook and

630
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,039
on his own? The answer to that is yes.

631
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:28,799
And that's all the time we have for the

632
00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:30,640
tweets this week, which alas means

633
00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:32,480
that's the end of the show, but you can

634
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,679
stay in touch with us on Twitter and now

635
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,679
on Instagram, RT Sputnik, or Facebook.

636
00:25:35,679 --> 00:25:39,760
Sputnik on Russia Today. It's goodbye

637
00:25:37,679 --> 00:25:44,200
from me, Gayatri. And from me, George

638
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,200
Galloway. It's been marvelous.

639
00:25:53,730 --> 00:25:57,130
[Music]