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Okay. I can't
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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me, George Galloway, and me,
Gayatri. Just a few weeks ago, it looked
certain that the final round of the
French presidential election would be a
contest between the right and the even
more right. In those circumstances,
Franis Fion, the mainstream right-wing
candidate, would surely have the support
of the center and the left to stop
Marine Le Pen, the leader of the
National Front. But a few weeks is a
long time in politics. Today, Fio is
looking like a dead political duck sunk
by the oldest of vices, greed. His wife,
who is British, maintained for years
that she's a simple housewife with no
involvement in her husband's politics.
Except it turns out she was paid
€800,000 by the taxpayer as her
husband's political assistant. Nothing
illegal in that except critics and the
French police are now investigating
whether she ever turned up for work,
whether she had been telling the truth
all along when she said she did not work
in her husband's politics. And then
there is the rise of France's Jeremy
Corbin, Benois Hammon, the new and
unexpected candidate of the formerly
discredited Socialist Party, if he can
set public opinion al light in the way
he has taken his party by storm. Could
the final round be between the left and
the far right? And in those
circumstances, who would the mainstream
conservatives support? Joining us to
discuss this fascinating French teaser
is Dr. Russell Foster of King's College
London, a specialist in European
politics. Dr. Russell, thanks for coming
back on board the Sputnik. Lay out for
us, if you would, the runners and riders
and uh what's likely to have changed now
as a result of this scandal. The French
elections uh this year are significant
for two reasons. one, it's possibly the
first time in the Fifth Republic that
we're going to see a final presidential
runoff between two outsider candidates
who don't belong to the standard binary
of the Conservatives versus the
Socialists. The second reason this is
highly significant is that the French
election this year is going to determine
the fate of the European Union, whether
it will continue to exist beyond this
year. That's something we can get to uh
in a short while. So the current uh race
for the French presidency is being
dominated by four figures who we need to
keep an eye on. Now the first as you've
identified is the conservative Franis
Fon who did look like he was going to uh
win the election but now he's mired in a
rather ugly political scandal. So I
think it's safe to now discount Mr. Fon.
He may make a comeback. If there's one
thing we learned from Brexit and Donald
Trump, it's that our predictions are
often very wrong. The second candidate
to keep an eye on is the current uh
frontr runner Emanuel Macron who has
disassociated himself from the highly
discredited socialist party under Franis
Holland. The socialists have now become
deeply unpopular and Holland seems to be
the most unpopular president in the
fifth republic. Macron has sensibly
distanced himself from this in order to
form his own uh external party which it
would be unfair to call populist. But
now that he's cut ties with the
establishment, it's likely that he'll
get a lot more support from French
voters who are highly disillusioned with
the establishment parties. The third
candidate who you term uh Francis Jeremy
Corbyn, Benoir Hammon, he is an outsider
at the moment and he might surprise us.
There's every possibility that he will
be able to ride on a wave of uh French
desire for change of an alternative to
the establishment.
It seems possible that he'll get through
the second round of elections, but at
the moment, although there is a
possibility for him to get through, it's
not clear whether he's sufficiently
popular to go up against uh Macron. Now,
this leaves us with the fourth candidate
who we need to be very, very concerned
about, Marine Le Pen, the leader of the
National Front. She's concerning for two
reasons. One is that in an era of
disenchantment and disillusionment with
establishment politics and in the
aftermath of Brexit, in the aftermath of
the Italian referendum against
Mateorenzi, in the aftermath of Mr.
Trump, it seems that people like Meen Le
Pen can appeal to a very angry segment
of the population who feel that they've
been abandoned by the same establishment
elites who are mired in scandal. She is
surely more or less guaranteed to be in
the final round given the current
standing of the front national in in the
opinion poll. All of the pundits seem to
be of this opinion that Marine Le Pen is
almost certainly going to get through
the first round and then in the final
round it's going to be Marine Le Pen
versus either Fran Fion or more likely
Emanuel Macron. I think we can. I know
you say he can make a comeback, but
we're talking about a 1 million euro
scandal here. Not just the 800,000 to
the wife, but
110,000 from a magazine owned by a
billionaire friend of Fong for which she
wrote two book reviews. It's said by the
France's equivalent of private eye,
Lukanard Onan. and then the two children
who were employed at state expense. I
myself think we can rule him out. If I'm
right, bear with me. That leaves then uh
Hamong Macron uh fighting for the right
to contest against uh Marine Le Pen. In
those
circumstances, surely Macron would be
more likely to get center and moderate
right support than Hammon would. Am I
right so far? Well, this is certainly
one way of interpreting it that Macron
is more likely to appeal to uh more
rational voters who don't want to
associate themselves with the ethnic
nationalism of the front national. But
one thing that I think we have to
consider in the European elections this
year, not just France, but also in the
Netherlands and Germany later this year
is that we're seeing the rise of
populist parties which defy
categorization according to the old
leftright spectrum. Well, in this way we
can compare them almost to Trump and
Sanders, the supporters of Trump and
Sanders. Precisely. We uh we we like to
be able to put them in a a framework of
reference. So we will still term people
like Macron a bit more leftwing, people
like Le Pen a bit more right-wing, but
they are able they are able to appeal to
the disenchanted and abandoned working
class. Well, the the French Communist
Party's voting base, it said, I don't
know the stats, maybe you do, is voting
heavily for Le Penh
because its blue collar workingass
uh base uh was left basically without a
home when communists ceased to be
communists, when socialists cease to be
socialists, which is precisely the
phenomenon that we saw with Brexit where
we saw a very curious phenomenon of the
hard left and the hard right suddenly
finding themselves
unholy alliance. I'm not that hard. Um
the but this phenomenon also worked for
Trump. Trump was elected in the
industrial states of America precisely
the postindustrial states of America. So
the traditional uh electorate who would
vote for the leftwing candidates. We can
no longer predict what they're going to
do. Now we can try and think of some
scenarios of what's going to happen in
the French elections. It's almost
certain that Marine Le Pen is going to
get through the first round and make it
into a final contest against Emanuel
Macron because I think Fion can be
discounted. You don't think Hammon can
uh there is there is a strong
possibility and the elections are still
a long way off. A lot can change in that
time, but either way, Marine Le Pen is
going to be up against uh another
outsider from the establishment. Now,
there are two possible scenarios that
will happen here. one, the one that
seems most likely at the moment is that
Marine Le Pen will lose. Now, if she
loses, this does not mean that France's
problems have gone away, that France is
suddenly fully in support of the
European Union, uh that France is
entirely behind the leader that they've
chosen. If she wins, then that's the end
of the European Union. We can safely say
that the EU can exist quite happily
without Britain. Our departure might
even make the EU a little stronger
because it removes the prime object uh
the country which has most frequently
objected to further integration. If
France leaves, that's the end of it. So
if she wins, that will happen. But if
she fails and uh and let's say Emanuel
Macron or Benoir Hammond win who are
both pro pro-EU exactly both pro EU but
they're going to be faced with a very
difficult scenario where they're
governing a country where a huge number
of voters have expressed deep resentment
45% uh at least I would exactly so
there's still going to be a lot of
political support for the front national
and this is going to make a severe
challenge for whoever is able to defeat
Le Pen in the past it's been when the
word was tossed around uh the FN was
described as a fascist party. I myself
think that that is no longer accurate.
Um but it is rooted in Vichi and
collaboration with Hitler and with
anti-semitism and so on. How much will
that prove to be a millstone around her
neck? Of course, this is correct. the
front national comes out of a
collaborationist anti-semitic
organization. But the same accusations
of uh ethnic bias, of racism, of
classism were being leveled at the leave
campaign in Brexit and at Mr. Trump in
the United States. And both of those
were able to survive that. And in some
unpleasant uh scenarios, it may be that
people were so fed up of being termed
these words that they ended up throwing
their support in behind Trump and behind
leave. So, Marine Le Pen, so throwing
these words around no longer works if it
ever did. No, I don't think it has the
same impact anymore. Now, if Marine Le
Pen had been running in the French
election, say 5 10 years ago,
accusations of uh racism and
anti-semitism would have destroyed her
campaign. Now, I think that Europe is
moving towards an atmosphere in which
people have people have become tired of
these terms and they're no longer afraid
of being called this. What can you tell
us about Francis, Jeremy, Corbin? What
are the similarities? Some similarities
is that he will have a wide appeal
outside of the establishment consensus.
Britain and America are not unique in
being postindustrial countries. France
has its decaying post-industrial cities.
France has its abandoned fishing towns
on the Mediterranean coast where people
feel abandoned by the metropolitan elite
in Paris and want an alternative. We
complain in Britain about the dominance
of London. that is nothing compared to
the French in the dominance of Paris
where outside of Paris you might as well
be living on the moon according to
French politics. So he will be able to
appeal to a very broad electorate who
are disenchanted with the metropolitan
elite. However, the same disillusioned
electorate are also going to turn
towards Marine Le Pen who is very very
clever at portraying herself as a woman
of the people not of the establishment.
Dr. But first, it's going to be a
fascinating teaser and we must have you
back to talk about the Dutch election
where the right-wing candidate Gilders
is today ahead in every single poll in
Holland. A very worrying precedent. Very
nice to see you again. Thanks for
joining us on the spot, Nick. Thank you.
Coming up next, it's the king of British
radio, James on Donald Trump. Don't miss
it.
[Music]
Welcome back to Sputnik. He's loud,
brash, opinionated, controversial, and
absolutely unmissable. And Donald Trump
is much the same. James Whale has been
the master of British radio airwaves for
decades. And he's my colleague again at
Talk Radio, as he was at Talk Sport
before that. In fact, if it wasn't for
him, I might not be on the radio at all.
Earlier this week, he and I had a
spirited discussion about Donald Trump.
so good we just had to do it again with
moving pictures. James, an honor to have
you here. Our argument about Donald
Trump wasn't just about the politics.
And I I don't really want to talk about
the politics. I want to talk about the
man, the personality, the phenomenon.
Because I think we both agree that this
is an age, an era in which your
mainstream politician just doesn't cut
it anymore. the people are mad as hell
and they're not going to put up with it
anymore. Is that your view? I think
you're right. I think
um I think uh almost anybody who is like
you, George, a great orator, a man who
can actually infuse the audience uh
could if they wanted to or a woman who
could infuse the a could if they wanted
to move into politics. People are fed up
uh with professional politicians. You
know our politicians tend to come from
political advisors who came from
political students uh and then they
become politicians. Not all I mean there
are some great politicians around but
there is this kind of uh professional
politician it is their career and I
think being being a public servant that
must be more of a calling mustn't it? It
must be something you want to do for
your fellow man and woman rather than it
being a career. And that's why Trump is
so hamfisted about things and so kind of
slightly inarticulate, shooting from the
hip, using the wrong words, tweeting
instead of calling or writing or having
a meeting and so on. It's because he
isn't really a politician. So he's he's
doing things in a way which is
completely alien to the media the
mainstream media class even at our radio
station which is hardly part of the you
know mainstream. Uh I can sense that
people are really hostile to Trump.
They're really hostile to the sometimes
ugliness of how he expresses things. He
has uh as has Jeremy Corbyn, if you
like, risen on a wave of public opinion
which a lot of people may not agree
with, but they have been able to um to
galvanize that that sort of support the
same way uh that we have voted to leave
the European Union with a lot of people
not actually thinking about the
ramifications and we won't go into that
now, but the same way with Donald Trump.
Listen, we've been doing badly. He can
get us jobs. He's going to make America
great again. We are all going to benefit
again. Now, it might be great that
somebody who isn't a politician,
although I'm not sure that businessmen
aren't fairly political. Exactly. That's
what I see. But, you know, he isn't
going to be able to deliver on an awful
lot of what he does. And if he carries
on the way he is, isn't he in danger of
becoming a dictator? Well, there is a
danger. Max Kaiser said to me this week
uh that he's going to be Yeah. He's
terrific. Uh that he's running for
office by the way. He's running for
Yeah. in North Carolina. Uh he was
making the point that Trump is
definitely going to test the
constitution. But then the constitution
isn't working. The political system
isn't working. In fact, it's broken. and
Brexit and Trump and Le Pen perhaps in
France, they're emerging from the
wreckage of that broken system. And the
danger is of course dictatorship, but
it's also that populism can whip up some
very dark forces uh in Well, that's what
worries me. And this is what worries me
about Brexit in a way, too. that there
are people now who think for some reason
if they don't like a foreigner or a
country that if it carries on the way it
is they can just be rude to them
disregard them or blame them and you
know at the moment in this country
somebody comes along um I mean I know
Nigel Farage quite well as do you I like
Nigel I might not agree with his
politics but he is again a good ortor a
man who speaks about what he feels I
don't think by the way he is a nasty
person or believes in in in some of the
things that other people who support him
think. On the other hand, I actually
think from what Donald Trump says, he
actually believes he can do whatever he
wants and he can actually blame part of
society, i.e. in this case, Muslims, for
all the ills that are affecting America
when it really hasn't got very much to
do with them at all. He is uh of course
uh scapegoating Muslims. There's no
doubt about that. So far, only verbally.
He's not bombing and invading them like
previous uh presidents. But I wanted to
test you on his other favorite whipping
boy, which is the media, he has decided
that rather than sit through a hostile
interview with a newspaper that's read
by not very many and staffed entirely by
the creatures of the elite, he's just
going over their heads. And even at a
press conference, he's not really
talking to them. He's talking over their
heads to the people. Is there any scope
for that in in British politics, do you
think? I think actually, you know, that
he doesn't even use the official pres
presidential uh Twitter account. He just
uses his own Twitter account. Exactly.
Yeah. I think it's already happening,
George. You tweet out, I tweet out. Um,
I don't think that the the so-called
mainstream media, the ones who look down
on tabloidism, whatever that might be, I
mean, I think I'm very tabloid. You're
probably quite tabloid as well, aren't
you? Do you think we're tabloid? Nothing
wrong with a tabloid. Exactly. 40,000
Frenchmen. Exactly. Exactly. I I I think
it's already happening. I think a lot of
those people perhaps who buy and read
the Guardian will be very upset to find
out that
I wouldn't think very many people who go
to vote read the Guardian at all. Um, in
fact, whenever I do a paper review for a
television station, I never bother to
look at it. Well, that's the fact that
the the the experts, the pundits, uh,
the political commentators and so on,
they were all so wrong. I remember
sitting in the RT studio when Sunderland
was announced, the first result in the
Brexit vote, and I told the host,
"That's it. We're out." And even the
host of RT couldn't quite believe that.
Uh, and of course on the BBC and in the
in the actual mainstream, uh, they
reacted with horror. Uh, anyone who
predicted, uh, the Brexit victory and
the and the Trump victory. I mean,
although I'm quite open and got into all
sorts of trouble for my BBC show about
it, I I'm was openly against leaving the
European Union. Um, and which might be
contrary to what people would think. And
the reason I was against leaving the
European Union, not because I think the
European Parliament works well, it
obviously it doesn't. It's too big and
too unwieldly. But what worries me about
today's society is nationalism and the
growth of nationalism. And we were
heading to be a world that was getting
on with each other a lot better than we
are now. The more nationalism there is,
the more chance of a conflict. No doubt
uh about that uh danger. What do you
think is the future for British politics
in that regard then because you have
Theresa May who isn't Margaret Thatcher
for all that the leader writers are
trying to write her up. I knew Margaret
Thatcher. Threesa May isn't Margaret
Thatcher. So did I. And I'll tell you my
two favorite politicians, Margaret
Thatcher and Tony Ben. Because they were
people of conviction. Yeah. And they
were people who actually didn't have the
benefits of uh an easy life. Tony Ben
made it himself. I know he had a title
and everything else, but he was Margaret
Thatcher was the daughter of a green
grosser. They actually knew a bit more
about life. Yeah. But they were
conviction politicians. You're right.
They were. And we don't really I mean
Jeremy Corbin is a conviction
politician. Uh but the opinion polls
indicate that not many people are are
buying his shares in uh in Corbin. Well
um I I you know Jeremy Corbyn well. I I
interviewed him many many times before
he became leader. Now he doesn't like to
be interviewed so much. Um which I think
is a big mistake. He was quite an
entertaining and interesting
interviewee.
But oh, don't take this the wrong way,
but he's not a leader. He cannot command
an audience. He doesn't have whatever it
is you have, George. Um, and what Nigel
Farage has, there's something that you
need to have to command.
Or
quality, as we're discussing, or the X
factor. Well, the X factor is a good way
of uh of putting it. Cuz if Simon Cow
went into politics tomorrow, Simon Cal
could become Donald Trump of the United
Kingdom. Oh, don't give him ideas. Well,
that was my that was my last question.
Um, can people see, you are the king of
radio? You've got an opinion on
everything. You express it. I'm just
like everybody else. And you and
everybody else. If I sit in a pub with
my mates, we're all having conversations
like this. I'm just very lucky that I
was never very well educated. So that I
was just left to to to find jobs where I
could talk my way into the My point is
you could be the the Trump uh of Britain
because Trump was the guy off the
apprentice. Yeah. Of course he made a
bit of money. I think not nearly as much
as he claims he made, but his size of
personality in America came through
reality television. Wouldn't that be
terrible? I for a joke when the London
mayor was first announced, I actually
said to Nigel Farage, "I'll be UKIP's
candidate for mayor." And Mrs. W and I
were driving to the ITN studios one
night and she said to me, "Right, you
have to stop this because they're
beginning to take you
seriously." And and so I did. If I've
been I tell you what, George, I never
thought about politics until I got I got
into into what I do by being a DJ uh in
the clubs, then getting to be a DJ on
radio, then realizing that I I enjoyed
talking more than playing records. If I
had had a different sort of upbringing
and different start in life, maybe I
would have gone into politics. Well,
never say never, James. uh because uh
you're younger still than Donald Trump
just and uh and a bit more uh fighting
fit. James will king of radio. Thanks
for joining us. My pleasure.
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And now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media. What's rattling guy? First of
France. be asked whether Benois ammo,
the French Jeremy Corbin, whether he's
going to change the course of the French
presidential election. And Bongo says if
he's anything like Corbin, then
resoundedly no. Well, look, uh, uh,
Benois has energized the party base,
party faithful. So did Jeremy Corbin. So
far, Corbin hasn't set a light the wider
electorate's hopes and uh, wishes. Uh
the big question is can Hammon now Trump
is he heading for an early exit or is he
actually an agent for change? Kate says
Trump is supported by powerful forces. I
reckon he's there for the long haul
unless others take him out. Well, these
are not mutually exclusive. He can be an
agent for change and still be headed for
an early exit. I fear uh for his safety.
I think that there will be an attempt to
get him out as having broken the
constitution uh in some way, some kind
of impeachment. Uh well, the whole the
whole media hysteria is already that's
what it's about. But if he goes the
distance and gets through this, he might
well be that agent for change. Well,
that's all the tweets we have for today,
which alas means that's all we've got
time for. But you can stay in touch with
us on Twitter and Instagram RT_Sputnik
or on Facebook Sputnik on Russia Today.
It's goodbye from me guyatri and from me
George Galloway. It's been marvelous.
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