1 00:00:24,190 --> 00:00:27,239 [Music] 2 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:35,440 I welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 3 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,680 with me Boris Johnson I'm standing in 4 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,640 for George and gaty cuz I want to make 5 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,399 the case for what I think would be an 6 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,399 absolutely spiffing regime change 7 00:00:41,399 --> 00:00:46,320 operation in Syria okay it might help 8 00:00:44,399 --> 00:00:49,280 those Isis chappies and lead to World 9 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,840 War II but if it does don't worry I'm 10 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,840 your foreign 11 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:58,280 secretary okay Boris don't call us we'll 12 00:00:55,359 --> 00:01:00,320 call you my name is Neil Clark and I am 13 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,719 standing in for Georg and gatri on the 14 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,720 Sputnik now it has been said of him that 15 00:01:02,719 --> 00:01:06,880 nobody knew black Britain its history 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,439 its fears its hopes more than the writer 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,799 and civil rights activist darkus how who 18 00:01:09,439 --> 00:01:14,520 sadly died this month at the age of 19 00:01:11,799 --> 00:01:16,479 74 darkus campaigned tirelessly and 20 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,479 fearlessly Against Racism and the ill 21 00:01:16,479 --> 00:01:21,159 treatment of black people by the 22 00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:23,640 authorities back in 1981 he famously 23 00:01:21,159 --> 00:01:25,960 organized a 20,000 strong black people's 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,159 day of action in protest at the handling 25 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:31,040 of the investigation into the new 26 00:01:28,159 --> 00:01:33,759 Crossfire in which 13 black teenagers 27 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:36,200 died joining me now to discuss darker 28 00:01:33,759 --> 00:01:39,000 how's Life and Legacy is author and 29 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,920 fellow civil rights campaigner TK mmud T 30 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,000 I like darkus how you were very very 31 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,880 active weren't you in the anti-racist 32 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,840 struggle in the 1980s can you tell us a 33 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,119 bit about your campaigns that you 34 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,280 thought back then for sure darkus was a 35 00:01:50,119 --> 00:01:55,600 a senior to us and I wasn't active out 36 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:58,840 of choice but because racist and racism 37 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:01,880 came knocking on our doors so the 70s 38 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:04,360 and 80s as the sort of a period for us 39 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:07,439 who grew up in Britain at that time it 40 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:10,479 was a period of intense State racism 41 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:12,920 Street racism gangs of paky Bashas 42 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:15,360 African and Asian Youth and people were 43 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:17,800 treated slightly differently but in 44 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,280 terms of our resistance and some of the 45 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,800 legacies that I do share is that we 46 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,680 stood up against the forces of the state 47 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,480 and one of the important things I I'd 48 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,440 like to sort of try to clarify that I am 49 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:33,840 also part of the black movement and a 50 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:36,160 movement is consists of many different 51 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,239 levels and layers there were men in the 52 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,159 movement there were women in the 53 00:02:37,239 --> 00:02:41,040 movement there were youth they were old 54 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:43,519 there were workers there were Community 55 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:46,800 organizations we didn't always 56 00:02:43,519 --> 00:02:48,840 share the same views on things but what 57 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,280 we did share was the commonality of 58 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,879 experience which forced us to unite on 59 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:57,280 certain issues and the divisions that 60 00:02:53,879 --> 00:03:00,959 may have existed were hidden and held 61 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:02,720 back for the need of our us resisting 62 00:03:00,959 --> 00:03:04,280 and fighting back yes and you were 63 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,120 obviously one of the Bradford 12 weren't 64 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,799 you in that famous case in the 198 could 65 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,360 you tell us a bit more about that what 66 00:03:07,799 --> 00:03:12,599 happened to you there we were told we 67 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,680 were we had organized a defense we had 68 00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:16,599 armed ourselves and organized a 69 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,400 community self-defense because we were 70 00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:21,840 told that fascists were coming to 71 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,560 Bradford the police went around and told 72 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,120 people to stay in their houses we took 73 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,840 the view no you cannot stay in your 74 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,840 houses when if your streets are about to 75 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,720 be attacked and if you're going to be 76 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:35,319 attacked by armed groups then you have a 77 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,080 legal political and a human right to 78 00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:39,200 defend yourselves in an appropriate 79 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,599 manner they were armed we had to be 80 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,000 organized we had to be armed but these 81 00:03:41,599 --> 00:03:46,599 are not race riots these are not all 82 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,120 black and white these are periods in 83 00:03:46,599 --> 00:03:50,159 which fascist are political 84 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,560 organizations they're mobilized for 85 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:55,319 specific events and that's what we did 86 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,920 the police took this simple little 87 00:03:55,319 --> 00:04:00,920 position and built a m Mountain out of a 88 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:03,319 mle hill really and presented us as a 89 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,360 group of terrorists who were go setting 90 00:04:03,319 --> 00:04:06,879 out to blow up the police station and 91 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,640 raise the town which was complete 92 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:10,760 nonsense and you were acquitted 93 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,760 obviously we were acquitted we were I 94 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,040 mean I conducted my own defense there 95 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:17,000 were 12 of us we were all acquitted but 96 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:20,280 we wouldn't have been acquitted had 97 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,600 there not been uh huge numbers of people 98 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:24,479 in their thousands defending us 99 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,400 including dark dark is that where you 100 00:04:24,479 --> 00:04:28,280 first met darkus was it I think I met 101 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,320 darkus over the years in different 102 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:32,680 places but I was also on the 103 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:35,199 demonstration following the new cross 104 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:38,199 Massacre okay but we had a long history 105 00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:40,600 of Afric afro Asian Unity we were United 106 00:04:38,199 --> 00:04:43,360 in the black movement it's not like of 107 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,919 today that suddenly the black and Asian 108 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,039 as a concept is divided we fought in the 109 00:04:45,919 --> 00:04:50,160 organization I belong to was called the 110 00:04:48,039 --> 00:04:52,400 United black youth league right why is 111 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,960 that today why don't the black and Asian 112 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,400 anti-racist movements come together as 113 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:59,120 they did so well in the 1980s I think 114 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,000 that there's no choice there will but 115 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:04,360 the import thing is what's the 116 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,400 difference between now and then the race 117 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,800 when we were growing up a lot of the 118 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:12,280 violence that we faced at the time on 119 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:14,800 the street was against men okay and you 120 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:17,600 know now the violence against women is 121 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:20,319 so enormous now that's not why there is 122 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:23,960 a Division I think islamophobia the new 123 00:05:20,319 --> 00:05:26,840 race the racism of the modern era of 124 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:30,080 today has created its own Dynamics and 125 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:32,479 divisions so that when you divide people 126 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,560 along religious lines it's not simply 127 00:05:32,479 --> 00:05:36,960 along black and white lines there are 128 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,759 many other Shades of Gray in between but 129 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:42,319 the most important aspect here is I 130 00:05:39,759 --> 00:05:44,360 think that we have we had a vision all 131 00:05:42,319 --> 00:05:47,080 of us shared a vision and that was not 132 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,400 simply fighting against that which we 133 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,960 were fighting against but also fighting 134 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,680 for something we wanted a better world 135 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,880 we lived with white people who were 136 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:59,240 dieul poor right who were organizing in 137 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,120 factories in Mills in community centers 138 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,080 and in accidentally the poverty now is 139 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,919 far greater than it was in the 70s and 140 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,520 80s absolutely in some areas and the 141 00:06:05,919 --> 00:06:11,080 sense of hope has gone it's all a sense 142 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,720 of hopelessness the unions got smashed 143 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:16,560 Community organizations got smashed the 144 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:19,280 idea that we could build a better world 145 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,960 it seems to have slipped so far away 146 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:23,319 because constantly the world has got 147 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,360 worse right and the foreign policies the 148 00:06:23,319 --> 00:06:25,440 British governments and American 149 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,680 governments have made it worse haven't 150 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,240 they surely with the series of attacks 151 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,639 on Muslim countries around the world 152 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,520 how has that really impacted you think 153 00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:35,560 on the race relations back home and and 154 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,000 fueled islamophobia for example they 155 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,840 didn't start in the recent following the 156 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,520 American incident they started way back 157 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:44,560 in fact they've never stopped for 500 158 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:47,000 years I can't think of a day when the 159 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,280 British army has not been involved in 160 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,199 action in some part of the World perhaps 161 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:53,759 your viewers can tell me a date and 162 00:06:51,199 --> 00:06:58,120 correct my memory but the point is let's 163 00:06:53,759 --> 00:07:00,960 not forget that 79 and 80 and mid 80s 164 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:03,319 are not that far away they were funding 165 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,720 the mujahidin the so-called Freedom 166 00:07:03,319 --> 00:07:07,280 Fighters who were fighting against the 167 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,400 Soviets and the Communists within 168 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:11,520 Afghanistan and I witnessed it some of 169 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:14,400 my friends went over to fight them we 170 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:16,960 had huge arguments we had arguments on 171 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:19,400 where do you fight anti-semitic ISM 172 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,680 we've said you fight it where it exists 173 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,400 I live in Britain it's a form of racism 174 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,440 we fight it here where do you fight the 175 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,440 racism that we are confronted not by 176 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,240 going to Afghanistan you fight it where 177 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,199 you are these were not International 178 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:36,479 brigades going out to Republican these 179 00:07:33,199 --> 00:07:40,319 were very often paid people to spread 180 00:07:36,479 --> 00:07:43,520 really vicious pernicious uh dogmatic 181 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:46,199 religious type of uh ideologies and the 182 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:48,440 consequence of that is a Continuum these 183 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:50,680 are the very same forces that have per 184 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,960 permeated and changed and and 185 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,759 metamorphosized into what we see today 186 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,560 so the policy of the British and 187 00:07:54,759 --> 00:07:59,199 American government actually hasn't 188 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,599 changed what has changed is us and the 189 00:07:59,199 --> 00:08:05,440 for that resist them but most 190 00:08:01,599 --> 00:08:08,080 importantly they no longer have the r 191 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:11,400 and the power to dictate anything and 192 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:14,120 everything they do but in the Arab world 193 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:17,400 is particularly where the viciousness of 194 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:19,440 their racism is so obvious which other 195 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,560 part of the world have we seen such 196 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:26,000 destruction as we have in Libya in Yemen 197 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,479 in Syria in absolutely uh looking at 198 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,120 back back at Britain would you say 199 00:08:27,479 --> 00:08:31,440 therefore that the situation is better 200 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:34,360 today was in the 70s ' 80s in in some 201 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,640 cases the more kind of outrageous racism 202 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,080 perhaps is less apparent today but in 203 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,039 fact it might be more subtle in other 204 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:43,000 words that the racis racism has changed 205 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:45,480 its form if you like would that be a 206 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:48,160 fair assessment uh racism always changed 207 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:50,959 its form nothing Remains the Same the 208 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:53,519 old racism has not gone away but a new 209 00:08:50,959 --> 00:08:55,600 one has come in its place in in in terms 210 00:08:53,519 --> 00:08:57,880 of islamophobia and what I find 211 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,560 ridiculous it's reduced to hate crime 212 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,279 hate crime it is not hate crime it's 213 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:05,079 racism just got a different name it's 214 00:09:02,279 --> 00:09:07,959 infinitely worse than it was before 215 00:09:05,079 --> 00:09:10,040 because at least when they when in now 216 00:09:07,959 --> 00:09:12,360 they just don't even pretend to it I 217 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,320 can't watch the BBC anymore right it's 218 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,640 so 219 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:19,480 incredibly biased and and also for all 220 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:22,079 the mainstream issues but also there is 221 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,040 this smugness in the west somehow we 222 00:09:22,079 --> 00:09:25,760 have to jump to their agenda yes and we 223 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,240 have the right to regime change in Arab 224 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,480 and Muslim countries we have the right 225 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,120 to say Assad must go G but of course the 226 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,920 syrians have absolutely no right do they 227 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,279 no of course to say Cameron must go and 228 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,800 that is inherently racist isn't it when 229 00:09:34,279 --> 00:09:39,720 you think about it I think racism is far 230 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,480 more it's an ideology to it's it's you 231 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,279 can see the fibers of Britain being 232 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,519 pulled apart but it's not racism that 233 00:09:44,279 --> 00:09:48,800 will pull them apart actually racism 234 00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:52,160 will weld them together and that also 235 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:54,399 applies in America it also very clearly 236 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,600 can be seen within France and within 237 00:09:54,399 --> 00:09:58,680 Germany and within Austria and all these 238 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:02,120 Western European countries that the 239 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:05,079 racism over here is an ideological tool 240 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:08,040 that has been used and perfected not not 241 00:10:05,079 --> 00:10:10,480 in a conspiratorial way but as a system 242 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:13,200 of holding people down and in that sense 243 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,800 the situation today is infinitely worse 244 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,240 infinitely worse than in the 70s and ' 245 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:19,720 80s when yeah 17 and' 80s and if we had 246 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:22,320 the extreme right or fascists you might 247 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,920 get 10 or 20 of them like the national 248 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,160 front or its equivalent in different 249 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,720 permutations of that time and you'd have 250 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,880 2,000 policemen protecting them and tens 251 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:34,160 of thousands of anti-racist it's not the 252 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:37,839 case anymore now the situation is the 253 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:40,800 other way around there are huge amounts 254 00:10:37,839 --> 00:10:44,720 of organizations but the the difference 255 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:47,600 I think it is that there is a right-wing 256 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,560 popularism that's Rising across Western 257 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,920 Europe how can we explain that t we have 258 00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:54,639 history to judge ourselves last time 259 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,920 this wave Rose was in the 30s the reason 260 00:10:54,639 --> 00:10:59,839 it Rose in the 30s is because there was 261 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:02,959 a huge crisis an economic crisis there 262 00:10:59,839 --> 00:11:05,440 was a slump everything was going down 263 00:11:02,959 --> 00:11:07,440 and therefore these forces raised their 264 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,040 heads when I look down in the Northern 265 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,839 areas it's dire the poverty within 266 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,839 Britain is dire I went came coming here 267 00:11:12,839 --> 00:11:17,040 from Manchester there isn't a bridge 268 00:11:14,839 --> 00:11:19,079 under which the homeless don't sleep my 269 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,639 God in the richest country in the world 270 00:11:19,079 --> 00:11:23,800 you have people sleeping it's shocking 271 00:11:21,639 --> 00:11:26,519 there is Beggars just know where I live 272 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,920 every few yards there are Beggars and 273 00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:30,399 they're in direful state they're not you 274 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,240 know some are mental health patients 275 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:36,399 some are just really poor and when you 276 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:38,880 have this sort of a thing it's very easy 277 00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:40,560 to deflect from the central 278 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,120 contradiction and the central 279 00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:45,880 contradiction isn't the color of skin 280 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,760 but it's political forces using that and 281 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,440 immigrants have been a clobbering stick 282 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,240 for as long as I can remember that's a 283 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,880 very good point I think you write 284 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,680 fiction as well don't you T and that's a 285 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,040 kind of Escape is it from this well I 286 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:59,000 think so I think what's going wrong in 287 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,040 the world today or is it well it's a 288 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,320 world in which I can try to make sense 289 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,519 of the you know the mess of life you 290 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:08,240 have a new book out coming I do indeed I 291 00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:12,120 I have a new book out I was uh because 292 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:14,680 I've never known anything but war and I 293 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:17,320 I asked myself the question you 294 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:20,199 know where do these forces emerge from 295 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:22,920 so my story is really a 77y old 296 00:12:20,199 --> 00:12:24,920 Pakistani atheist who becomes a suicide 297 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,440 bomber in Manchester but why would 298 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:30,240 somebody who doesn't believe in God 299 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:32,760 become that fiction I suppose is the One 300 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:37,440 World in which we can suspend our 301 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:39,360 disbelief and and uh talk where animals 302 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,399 can talk the wind can talk the trees the 303 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:44,120 moon the sun they can all be give us 304 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:46,279 metaphoric messages but we actually now 305 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:49,160 live in the world where in order to 306 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:50,959 survive we have to suspend our disbelief 307 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,600 simply to believe the unbelievable 308 00:12:50,959 --> 00:12:55,680 morons who rule our world so the book is 309 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,680 called the song of GS Arena the book's 310 00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:59,360 out now thank you so much for coming on 311 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:01,480 the spck T has been absolute Joy have 312 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,920 you on the program thank you so much 313 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,320 don't go away because after the break 314 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,120 we'll be crossing the Atlantic to 315 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:09,360 discuss James Baldwin and the fight for 316 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,360 civil rights in the United 317 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,560 States welcome back to Sputnik with me 318 00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:18,800 Neil Clark standing in for Georgian 319 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:20,360 gaty I am not your negro is a 320 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,240 provocative piece that has acquired an 321 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,480 extra Dimension and significance since 322 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,639 the wave of reaction politics bought in 323 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,120 by Donald Trump swallow The American 324 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:31,399 Nation this documentary film is based on 325 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,399 James Baldwin's unfinished manuscript 326 00:13:31,399 --> 00:13:36,560 remember this house and is narrated by 327 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:38,000 the actor Samuel L Jackson it explores a 328 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,399 history of racism in the US through 329 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,160 Baldwin's memories of civil rights 330 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:44,360 leaders megar ever Malcolm X and Martin 331 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,959 Luther King Jr as well as their tragic 332 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,639 and untimely deaths with us today to 333 00:13:46,959 --> 00:13:51,600 discuss the film is the film journalist 334 00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:53,639 and director of dmovies Victor frager 335 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,600 Victor welcome on board the Sputnik 336 00:13:53,639 --> 00:13:56,839 thank you very much thank you very much 337 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,079 for coming on and can you tell us about 338 00:13:56,839 --> 00:13:59,600 this film and why we should be going to 339 00:13:58,079 --> 00:14:02,759 see it why is it important 340 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,839 well obviously a lot has changed in the 341 00:14:02,759 --> 00:14:06,680 world in the past uh in the past 12 342 00:14:04,839 --> 00:14:11,959 months or so when this film was 343 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:15,680 completed it it was 201 or yes 2016 2016 344 00:14:11,959 --> 00:14:18,120 it was already an urgent piece of Cinema 345 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:21,920 because it basically holds up a mirror 346 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:24,079 to to the US and say say look you are a 347 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:27,560 racist Society it is that black and 348 00:14:24,079 --> 00:14:30,320 white there's a lot of racism racism is 349 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:33,320 pervasive now get up and do something 350 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:37,600 about it uh since then things have 351 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:40,920 become um far more serious we have seen 352 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:43,279 a huge reactionary backlash in the world 353 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,920 we have seen the uh the racist politics 354 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:49,120 of Donald Trump I come from Brazil where 355 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:52,360 we saw Auda there's a lot of extreme 356 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:54,399 rightwing movements in the UK and in 357 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:57,920 Europe and obviously none of that uh 358 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:59,920 Works in favor of Tolerance uh the civil 359 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:05,360 rights movement did achieve a lot the 360 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:07,320 film talks about um Medgar ver malol Max 361 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,600 was doubly subversive not just being 362 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:13,000 black and an activist but also being 363 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:16,000 being a Muslim and uh Martin Luther King 364 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,000 all three of them were murdered for for 365 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,519 similar reasons so perhaps suggesting 366 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:24,839 that establishment wasn't ready to deal 367 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:27,240 with such vocal people um Balwin is so 368 00:15:24,839 --> 00:15:29,839 invigorating his intelligence and his 369 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:32,440 wits are really contagious so um the 370 00:15:29,839 --> 00:15:35,800 film is also very very cleverly put 371 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:39,360 together there's an image of uh dory's 372 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:41,839 day dancing around Jolly blindly unaware 373 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:45,040 of racism and that's contrasted with 374 00:15:41,839 --> 00:15:47,680 black people being hung in trees so it's 375 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:50,440 a film that's America in the 50s yeah or 376 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,959 early 60s still going on yeah well uh 377 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:57,360 people weren't being hung in the 60s but 378 00:15:52,959 --> 00:16:00,920 the film Blends images and events from 379 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:03,120 from throughout history to show that uh 380 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:06,600 we we need to do something about racism 381 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:09,720 so uh Balwin died in um in '87 his 382 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,720 manuscripts were unfinished they chose 383 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,759 samel El Jackson and name everyone will 384 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:17,519 recognize to narrate the film that's for 385 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:20,680 that's again for for for a reason so 386 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:22,639 that um we have had um a an American 387 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,360 president a black American president but 388 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:27,720 this is not to say that um racism is 389 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:32,519 entirely gone and we had the Ferguson 390 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:35,519 riots um just a few years ago following 391 00:16:32,519 --> 00:16:37,480 um the killing of of an innocent 392 00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:41,360 American Teenager the the American 393 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:44,959 Steven Lawrence um and uh we are 394 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:48,160 certainly going to see a lot of negative 395 00:16:44,959 --> 00:16:51,560 developments the film at one point it 396 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,720 exposes American advertising of freedom 397 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:58,519 in the 60s so selling the land of the 398 00:16:53,720 --> 00:17:02,079 free and contrasts that against police 399 00:16:58,519 --> 00:17:05,079 op question of rioting so um that was in 400 00:17:02,079 --> 00:17:08,240 the 60s if the film was made now I think 401 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:10,319 we could very well get Trump's advert of 402 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,760 American first which they have mocked 403 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:15,400 all over the world they did this jman 404 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:18,280 second Brazil second you've probably 405 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:21,160 seen that yeah so if the film was made 406 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,640 as here Ro Pac who is Haitian um which 407 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,480 is an irony elf as well he would 408 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,679 probably get that American first advert 409 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,160 and contrast against the Ferguson riots 410 00:17:28,679 --> 00:17:33,799 so exactly what you got in the 60s still 411 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,960 happening now so the racism is still 412 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:39,120 there and the worst part is that the 413 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,600 bigots are feeling energized with the 414 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,640 election of Donald Trump with 415 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:45,200 reactionary developments all over the 416 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:48,640 world and uh it's very important that 417 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:52,240 people go watch this film and that uh 418 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:55,159 they do realize racis racism is not is 419 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:58,200 not history it's it's just reinvented 420 00:17:55,159 --> 00:18:00,120 itself Victor is there perhaps a danger 421 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,919 that by focusing SE too much on Trump we 422 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,679 kind of minimized the racism that 423 00:18:01,919 --> 00:18:06,280 existed pre- Trump and to try to make 424 00:18:03,679 --> 00:18:08,679 out that things were great you know 425 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,640 before his election I mean economically 426 00:18:08,679 --> 00:18:12,120 the poorest four states of the US are 427 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,559 the states with the highest black 428 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:17,240 percentage of population the Deep South 429 00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:19,280 States and that this is a problem that 430 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,080 has been going on for an awful long time 431 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:25,880 well that that that's certainly true 432 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:27,679 Trump uh is not the cause Trump is a is 433 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,919 a is is the consequence we shouldn't 434 00:18:27,679 --> 00:18:33,799 shoot the messenger 435 00:18:29,919 --> 00:18:36,440 um as you pointed out black people are 436 00:18:33,799 --> 00:18:38,880 in the poorest states in the Deep South 437 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,280 that's for historical reasons what we've 438 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:44,159 seen obviously slavery come came to an 439 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:47,320 end yet black people still deny the 440 00:18:44,159 --> 00:18:49,600 voice and that's partially through mass 441 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,360 incarceration so people who have been 442 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:55,440 incarcerated who have a criminal record 443 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:56,880 in the US are not entitled Revol as a 444 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,080 consequence how long does that last for 445 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,600 is that is that 10 years 20 years I 446 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,520 think it varies state by state I'm not 447 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,440 entirely sure but I think it's for life 448 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,159 I think it's for Life depending on on 449 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,120 the serious of the of the offense or the 450 00:19:07,159 --> 00:19:12,799 felony or or whatever or whatever they 451 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:15,960 call it but that does prevent a very 452 00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:19,159 significant chunk of black people as 453 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:22,159 much as 30% of of black male adults from 454 00:19:19,159 --> 00:19:25,440 voting and that's one reason why the the 455 00:19:22,159 --> 00:19:27,240 states in the sou always votes a 456 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,880 republican because black people who tend 457 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:33,280 to vote a democratic are are denied 458 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:37,240 voice Obama being uh a black man was 459 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:41,080 certainly um a huge achievement but it 460 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:45,919 didn't sort the problem of racism racism 461 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:48,760 in the US is very much at a 462 00:19:45,919 --> 00:19:50,760 face on one hand because American 463 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,400 Constitution vouches for freedom of 464 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,960 expression in a different way from the 465 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,520 UK and the UK is is a little bit blurry 466 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,720 so basically in the US anyone can say 467 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,360 anything they want so so you had people 468 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,440 carrying out plets saying get the out we 469 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:06,919 don't want the Negroes and that would 470 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,159 have been much less acceptable here so 471 00:20:06,919 --> 00:20:11,240 that's bad but on the other hand that's 472 00:20:09,159 --> 00:20:13,640 also good because when you see something 473 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,640 so violent people react so open and 474 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,000 blatant yeah you like open and blatant 475 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:21,039 that's why you that's why you had people 476 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:24,080 like Malcolm ax that's why you you had 477 00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:27,200 people like Martin Luther King Jr in the 478 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:30,400 US um that's also why a lot of the Black 479 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:34,880 Talent in cinema in the US okay migrates 480 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:37,000 to uh to the US so uh so Steve McQueen 481 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,960 hold the 12 Years a Slave he's British 482 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,520 um he is Idis Elba he's he's out also 483 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,520 British so why is it that a lot of the 484 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:47,880 Black Talent migrates uh migrates to the 485 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:50,039 US perhaps because the the issue of race 486 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,039 in here is much more subtle there's 487 00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:53,720 diversity standards the baa has 488 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:56,840 diversity standards the BFI has 489 00:20:53,720 --> 00:21:00,000 diversity standards uh yet we're not 490 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:03,360 seeing um a very very 491 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,440 vocal black artist in in the British 492 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:08,600 film industry not to the same extent as 493 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,880 as Lee for example Ley is is 494 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,679 is a legend himself um and I think 495 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,760 that's related to the fact that in the 496 00:21:12,679 --> 00:21:17,240 in the US you have the the very 497 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,799 aggressive reactionary movement because 498 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:22,279 they have freedom freedom of expression 499 00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:24,400 and and and a backlash against that so 500 00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:26,000 people tend to be very vocal on both 501 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,159 both sides as opposed to Britain where 502 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,200 it's not so in your face the racism it's 503 00:21:28,159 --> 00:21:32,080 not so blatant perhaps and so we don't 504 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,120 get the reaction to it is as strong as 505 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,360 in the US yeah that's fascinating what 506 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:37,600 about Brazil can I ask you about Brazil 507 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:40,000 you're a Brazilian yeah is Brazil a 508 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,799 racist Society how would it compare with 509 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,480 the US and the UK profoundly racist what 510 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:49,840 I would call the US um openly racist 511 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:52,880 Society I would call the UK um class 512 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:56,559 racism if I may say so or classism it's 513 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:59,440 all and Brazil in Brazil we have cordal 514 00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:01,799 racism a lot of people believe Brazil is 515 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:05,159 tolerant because the ultimate Brazilian 516 00:22:01,799 --> 00:22:08,960 stereotype is the m is the mixed race so 517 00:22:05,159 --> 00:22:11,480 people mistake misation for tolerance 518 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,360 Brazil is a deeply mixed country but 519 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,200 that's not because people are tolerant 520 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:17,600 that's for very tragic historical 521 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,200 reasons well first of all when the 522 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:23,080 United States were was colonized whole 523 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:25,760 families moved across there when Brazil 524 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:28,080 was colonized only the male Portuguese 525 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,559 moved to Brazil and so they would start 526 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:33,159 m ating with the locals with with the 527 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:36,279 indigenous the practice called quism and 528 00:22:33,159 --> 00:22:39,360 later on during uh the slave period 529 00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:41,760 misation happened through Mass rape so 530 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:44,480 the so the owners of the Farms would 531 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:48,200 rape uh the black women so by no means 532 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:50,080 Brazil is tolerant because uh or is 533 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,320 mixed because it's tolerant so there's 534 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,159 still a lot of racism in Brazil we've 535 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:58,600 never certainly never had a had a a 536 00:22:54,159 --> 00:23:01,200 black president but uh in Brazil people 537 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,880 tedly belief that uh black people are 538 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,520 good footballers and good musicians but 539 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,760 they shouldn't be really taken seriously 540 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,559 can I just ask you which countries you 541 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,159 think are doing well on racism if there 542 00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:11,760 any you've been to or lived in or or you 543 00:23:10,159 --> 00:23:13,159 think have a very tolerant attitude I do 544 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:18,760 you think that the 545 00:23:13,159 --> 00:23:22,240 UK had has done a good job um I do think 546 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:24,440 that the UK is generally less racist uh 547 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,760 than all the places that they they they 548 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,080 uh they have made huge improvements and 549 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,960 that that's that's should do with the 550 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:34,840 Imperial history um people from all the 551 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:37,880 colonies have come here and so one way 552 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:40,279 or the other we had to get used to 553 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,799 living with blacks living with people 554 00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:45,600 from the Americas from Asia and so on 555 00:23:43,799 --> 00:23:47,880 obviously it's not nothing to do with 556 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,640 the fact that the British are naturally 557 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:53,159 more tolerant British imperialism was 558 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:56,159 was filled with Colonial ideas of racial 559 00:23:53,159 --> 00:23:58,480 superiority so so so it's not that but I 560 00:23:56,159 --> 00:24:01,000 do think this country has has has done a 561 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,679 lot um in order to fight 562 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,600 racism Europe might be a lot more 563 00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:08,400 leftwing in many ways but but Europe is 564 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:11,760 deeply racist Germany is racist I mean I 565 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:15,039 look at France with with Marine Leen now 566 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:18,039 um Spain is racist so you're not going 567 00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:20,919 to certainly not going to get all 568 00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:23,480 nations holding hand together and saying 569 00:24:20,919 --> 00:24:25,799 we're we're we're going to fight racism 570 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,919 but uh but I like to believe and there 571 00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:30,960 will certainly be a reaction again 572 00:24:27,919 --> 00:24:32,679 history is pendula a few years ago five 573 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,480 out of 10 years ago things were looking 574 00:24:32,679 --> 00:24:37,159 much much better uh if I looked two 575 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,720 years back I never thought we would be 576 00:24:37,159 --> 00:24:41,960 where where we are now we say with Mar 577 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,039 in Leen in France well she hasn't won 578 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,080 but just the fact that she's doing quite 579 00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:48,919 well it's quite scary Trump in the US a 580 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,799 a reactionary kud time Brazil I never 581 00:24:48,919 --> 00:24:54,600 thought we I'd see that just uh just two 582 00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:56,480 years ago um but I like to think there 583 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,120 will be a backlash I'd like to think 584 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,960 Cinema is going to play a very important 585 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:03,360 and in that backlash I would like to 586 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,559 urge everyone not just black 587 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:09,360 people but people of all Creeds and all 588 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:11,600 callers and all racist to watch uh to 589 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:14,000 watch uh I am not your negro because 590 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,279 it's a film about being 591 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,520 marginalized about making your voice 592 00:25:16,279 --> 00:25:20,480 heard about breaking some eggs in order 593 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,360 to make an omlette well I'm going to go 594 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,840 watch it tonight I think you me a great 595 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,080 guest thank you very much Victor thank 596 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,480 for coming on the sputnic well 597 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,039 unfortunately that's all we got time for 598 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,760 on this week's Sputnik I been Neil Clark 599 00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:33,200 standing in for George and gatri and as 600 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,640 George would 601 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,640 say it's been marvelous 602 00:25:47,610 --> 00:25:51,010 [Music]