1 00:00:08,519 --> 00:00:12,719 3 I get 2 00:00:30,519 --> 00:00:38,200 welcome to Sputnik with me well you know 3 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:41,280 who I am I'm celebrating my first one 4 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:44,320 100 days in office and I thought it 5 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:49,680 would be a beautiful thing yes a 6 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:52,280 beautiful beautiful thing to host 7 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,920 Sputnik no Donald it wouldn't be 8 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,879 beautiful at all I'm new Clark and I am 9 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,920 hosting Sputnik standing in for Georg 10 00:00:56,879 --> 00:01:02,160 and gatri in these interesting political 11 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:04,879 times last June North Korea's State 12 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,600 media hailed Donald Trump yes him again 13 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:09,000 as a farsighted presidential candidate 14 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,000 it's unlikely they're saying the same 15 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,479 thing now Trump's gunboat diplomacy and 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,960 the threats of military action against 17 00:01:13,479 --> 00:01:18,799 pongyang have contributed greatly to 18 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:20,920 increased tensions the US is demanded 19 00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:22,159 that North Korea ends its missile tests 20 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,079 but the leadership of the communist 21 00:01:22,159 --> 00:01:25,479 state remains defiant for the top 22 00:01:24,079 --> 00:01:27,799 official warning this week that its 23 00:01:25,479 --> 00:01:29,320 nuclear test would never stop could we 24 00:01:27,799 --> 00:01:30,479 be heading for a major military 25 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:32,960 confrontation 26 00:01:30,479 --> 00:01:35,280 or even World War III or is it all just 27 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:37,079 saber rling from a US president Keen to 28 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,720 gain the approval of foreign policy 29 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:40,439 Hawks back home joining me now to 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,520 discuss the latest developments is the 31 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:45,439 leading North Korea and China expert 32 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,719 Keith Bennett Keith welcome on board the 33 00:01:45,439 --> 00:01:49,320 Sputnik good to be back well thanks well 34 00:01:47,719 --> 00:01:51,240 let's talk about North Korea now this 35 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,079 developing situation the headlines today 36 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,840 again more us threats to pyang we had 37 00:01:54,079 --> 00:01:58,200 the North Korean artillery test 38 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,399 yesterday we hear about the US sending 39 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,880 an anti-missile radar system system to 40 00:02:00,399 --> 00:02:04,360 South Korea which the Chinese aren't too 41 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:07,119 happy about are we heading inevitably 42 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,479 towards a a war here or is it just saber 43 00:02:07,119 --> 00:02:10,399 rattling from a president who just wants 44 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,920 to keep the Hawks happy back at home I 45 00:02:10,399 --> 00:02:14,040 think it's more than saber rattling I 46 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:16,200 think it's a very dangerous situation 47 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,080 but I don't think that war is an 48 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:21,440 evitable uh I think the first thing one 49 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,519 has to bear in mind about this is that 50 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,760 uh in the west a lot of this is 51 00:02:23,519 --> 00:02:29,959 presented as today's crisis or or at 52 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:32,400 most it's presented as a crisis uh that 53 00:02:29,959 --> 00:02:34,200 began when North Korea began its own 54 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,680 program of developing nuclear weapons or 55 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,920 when it carried out its first nuclear 56 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,280 test in 57 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:42,239 2006 but the United States under 58 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,560 successive administrations and 59 00:02:42,239 --> 00:02:46,760 successive presidents from both parties 60 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,280 have repeatedly threatened North Korea 61 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:52,319 with the use of of nuclear weapons uh 62 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:55,720 going right back to 1950 uh and that's 63 00:02:52,319 --> 00:02:59,560 the the context in in which one uh has 64 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:01,200 to see this uh the other aspect I think 65 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,360 is that 66 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:06,400 uh whilst there is a whilst there is a a 67 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,519 danger of War because the the issue is 68 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:11,200 being ramped up uh progressively and uh 69 00:03:09,519 --> 00:03:13,239 we don't know what Trump's intentions 70 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,120 are and of course in history many wars 71 00:03:13,239 --> 00:03:17,040 don't start deliberately they start by 72 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,200 miscalculation or or mistake so there 73 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:24,319 are a whole set of dangers against that 74 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:27,120 what you have to see is is that uh if 75 00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:29,480 you look at the basically the whole um 76 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,640 postc world war history the United 77 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,640 States has repeatedly waged Wars It's 78 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:35,799 repeatedly waged them though against 79 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:37,200 essentially defenseless countries very 80 00:03:35,799 --> 00:03:38,680 good point yeah when you think about 81 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,159 Iraq irat was attacked because it didn't 82 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,720 have wmd wasn't it exactly and Libya 83 00:03:41,159 --> 00:03:44,280 Gaddafi gave up his weapons program 84 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,840 which probably signing his own death 85 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:50,480 warrant and Yugoslavia of course bombed 86 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:52,360 in 1999 didn't have nuclear weapons so 87 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,079 is it not the case as Pat Buchanan in 88 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,400 fact who's a right-wing American 89 00:03:54,079 --> 00:03:57,760 politician America's actually 90 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:00,120 recommended that pongyang get gets nukes 91 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,319 simply to deter attack and isn't the the 92 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,640 message or for all leaders of countries 93 00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:05,599 are threatened by the US actually to 94 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,599 develop nuclear weapons well I think 95 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:10,280 it's not just Pat Buchanan although she 96 00:04:07,599 --> 00:04:11,519 didn't Advocate that uh pongyang 97 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:15,000 developed nuclear weapons but 98 00:04:11,519 --> 00:04:17,639 nevertheless the former uh US Secretary 99 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,280 of State meline orright uh made the 100 00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:22,040 observation that the lesson to be drawn 101 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:23,560 between Iraq and North Korea was that if 102 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,919 you don't have nuclear weapons you get 103 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,000 invaded by the United States and if you 104 00:04:25,919 --> 00:04:31,160 do have nuclear weapons you don't you 105 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:35,880 don't get invaded and um meline orright 106 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:40,960 on on the one hand visited pongyang um 107 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:43,280 as um as Will Bill Clinton's uh Envoy uh 108 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,240 when she was Secretary of State and uh 109 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:47,280 she had long discussions with the the 110 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,759 North Korean leader Kim jongil and on 111 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:51,199 the other hand uh she was of course the 112 00:04:49,759 --> 00:04:53,720 the woman who said that the deaths of up 113 00:04:51,199 --> 00:04:56,240 to half a million Iraqi children were 114 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:58,199 under sanctions was a price worth paying 115 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,639 so this is a this is a woman who is not 116 00:04:58,199 --> 00:05:02,840 above the cynical ations of real 117 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:04,160 politique absolutely where does China 118 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:06,000 fit in all of this because there is a 119 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,600 sort of theory that Trump may be using 120 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,520 this crisis hyping it up if you like uh 121 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,440 in order to put pressure on China to 122 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,400 sign a trade here with with the US is 123 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,960 that is that a possible reason certainly 124 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:20,720 the intensification of the crisis is an 125 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:24,560 is an is an essentially an artificial 126 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:26,759 one uh by by Trump yes uh yes North 127 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,280 Korea has carried out some more more 128 00:05:26,759 --> 00:05:33,440 missile tests recently but there's been 129 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:36,560 no really qualitative uh change uh in in 130 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:40,639 in the respective uh positions of of the 131 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:42,919 two sides and yet it has been uh yet has 132 00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:46,120 been hyped up in into into the crisis of 133 00:05:42,919 --> 00:05:51,440 the moment and I think that um one has 134 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:53,600 to situate this within the context of 135 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:56,199 the fact that throughout his um 136 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,600 presidential campaign obviously Trump 137 00:05:56,199 --> 00:05:59,319 said a lot of different things sometimes 138 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,479 very contradictory things absolutely 139 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:03,440 yeah but one of the things he was very 140 00:06:01,479 --> 00:06:06,400 consistent on was in the Hardline stance 141 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:09,479 he take he took against China he appears 142 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:11,759 to have moderated that uh to to to some 143 00:06:09,479 --> 00:06:14,880 extent at the moment 144 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:17,840 and uh but but it it's really a 145 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:21,039 difference in tone rather than substance 146 00:06:17,840 --> 00:06:24,479 because what he's actually saying is 147 00:06:21,039 --> 00:06:27,639 that he's trying to put pressure on onto 148 00:06:24,479 --> 00:06:30,599 China to to in turn exercise pressure in 149 00:06:27,639 --> 00:06:35,160 on in on on North Korea 150 00:06:30,599 --> 00:06:37,599 uh and using both a a carrot of of uh 151 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,520 possibly bet better trade deals on on 152 00:06:37,599 --> 00:06:41,840 not carrying through with his threats 153 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:45,199 but also the Stick of 154 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:46,919 um o of um secondary sanctions against 155 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:48,520 Chinese Banks or companies who who are 156 00:06:46,919 --> 00:06:52,800 dealing with North Korea but but you 157 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:54,479 know also far more seriously uh the uh 158 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,520 the threat of increasing the tension in 159 00:06:54,479 --> 00:06:58,960 the region and even of a military 160 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,360 conflict which even if China didn't 161 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,800 didn't get directly involved would would 162 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:06,520 still have you know very very serious 163 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:10,120 consequences uh uh for China and of 164 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:12,080 course the the deployment of the uh 165 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,599 terminal high altitude air defense the 166 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:17,160 So-Cal Thad in South Korea which is 167 00:07:14,599 --> 00:07:20,360 ongoing at the moment uh is is 168 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:22,919 essentially aimed at China yes so Trump 169 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,319 has and and his various people Pence 170 00:07:22,919 --> 00:07:28,479 Tillson and S have all said that the 171 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:30,440 days of strategic patience uh which was 172 00:07:28,479 --> 00:07:32,919 Obama's policy to was North Korea are 173 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,759 over and all options are on the table 174 00:07:32,919 --> 00:07:37,199 which of course is a is a threat of of 175 00:07:34,759 --> 00:07:41,080 of military is a clear threat of 176 00:07:37,199 --> 00:07:43,520 possible military attack uh but his 177 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,120 main practical politics at the moment 178 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,720 appears to be putting pressure on China 179 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,199 which is it's a sort of Obama policy on 180 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,280 steroids it's not it's not as it's not 181 00:07:50,199 --> 00:07:55,720 as fundamentally different As Trump and 182 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:58,039 his people would like to like to to to 183 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,639 to make it appear but of course Trump's 184 00:07:58,039 --> 00:08:02,560 presentational method are very different 185 00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:04,720 from Obama's it is a difficult country 186 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,800 to get into isn't it you've been there 187 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,479 uh as a tourist you can go can't you on 188 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,759 various packages in some some companies 189 00:08:08,479 --> 00:08:12,479 offer it so what can be what can be done 190 00:08:10,759 --> 00:08:13,879 to sort of get get the reality out there 191 00:08:12,479 --> 00:08:16,440 to get the truth and to to fight this 192 00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:18,800 sort of propaganda that that is still 193 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,840 carrying on really from the old Cold War 194 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:25,120 it's it's quite an uphill struggle 195 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:28,720 because um It's Perfectly possible to to 196 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:31,400 go go to North Korea as a tourist um or 197 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,159 or in you know other other capacities 198 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,880 that that are appropriate 199 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:39,479 but if you you know there are there are 200 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:41,399 companies uh some based in the UK some 201 00:08:39,479 --> 00:08:43,599 some British owned but based but based 202 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:45,399 in China with whom you can you can book 203 00:08:43,599 --> 00:08:48,240 up and go to on a holiday but it it's 204 00:08:45,399 --> 00:08:51,120 it's a it's a long journey and it's it's 205 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:53,680 quite expensive so it's uh it's it's not 206 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,519 going to break into the mass tourism 207 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:57,279 anytime soon anytime soon and is it the 208 00:08:55,519 --> 00:08:58,600 right time to be going now with with the 209 00:08:57,279 --> 00:08:59,600 saber rattling and with the current 210 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,040 situation how do you think think is 211 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,800 going to pan out Keith because uh on the 212 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,279 one hand you've said that it it could 213 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,079 just be a case of trump wanting to say 214 00:09:06,279 --> 00:09:09,720 BR there isn't much of a change from the 215 00:09:08,079 --> 00:09:12,000 Obama policy but the other hand we have 216 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,320 got a president there as you said he you 217 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,680 know he dropped the bomb in Afghanistan 218 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,600 the mother war bombs he bombed Syria he 219 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:19,640 he is he could come across perhaps by 220 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,839 many to see as unstable it's 221 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,680 uncertain uh and uh there is a risk 222 00:09:22,839 --> 00:09:28,160 surely of War uh the Chinese are the key 223 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:30,399 players probably so where will we be do 224 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,880 you think in in s month's time here will 225 00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:33,399 we still have this a rting going on will 226 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,680 there be some kind of calming of 227 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:36,680 tensions or will it get even 228 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:42,760 worse it's very difficult to say but I 229 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,600 think that if you look at the 230 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,360 situation this 231 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,640 week it it's still making the headlines 232 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:53,160 but it less so than less so than two 233 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:55,000 weeks ago um a lot a lot of the media 234 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,399 presentation even two weeks ago was that 235 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:01,320 was that war was all all but certain and 236 00:09:57,399 --> 00:10:01,320 and and imminent yes uh 237 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:08,440 with it beneath the 238 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:11,720 um beneath the surface or of the of of 239 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:15,000 the threats and and and so on uh of of 240 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,360 of military attack as I mentioned uh 241 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,399 Trump's 242 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:23,720 policy at the moment seems to be mainly 243 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:28,079 focused on um trying trying to 244 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:31,320 pressurize pressurize the Chinese 245 00:10:28,079 --> 00:10:31,320 the the 246 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:37,399 the the possibility clearly exists that 247 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:41,000 that Trump would take some kind of uh 248 00:10:37,399 --> 00:10:43,560 rash or or or or adventurist action uh 249 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,839 but one would think that his advisers 250 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:49,040 would draw attention to the fact that 251 00:10:45,839 --> 00:10:52,160 you know AF you know Afghanistan is is 252 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,959 an utterly defenseless country uh Syria 253 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:57,360 was in no position to to stop the to to 254 00:10:54,959 --> 00:10:59,920 respond to the tomahawk missiles that 255 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,240 that were that that were placed uh upon 256 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:05,920 it of course the United States is by far 257 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:08,360 the most powerful military power on on 258 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:12,160 on Earth but North Korea as I say is not 259 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:13,399 is not a defenseless country and uh 260 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:18,720 there will 261 00:11:13,399 --> 00:11:23,320 be and so irres make irrespective 262 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:25,959 irrespective of what um of the strong 263 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,480 anti-north Korean positions taken by uh 264 00:11:25,959 --> 00:11:32,279 Japan and South 265 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:35,399 Korea there is um the th those countries 266 00:11:32,279 --> 00:11:37,519 do not want to to see to see themselves 267 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:40,639 dragged into this kind this kind of a 268 00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:43,040 war and what's also very important is 269 00:11:40,639 --> 00:11:45,000 that uh there's presidential elections 270 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,600 coming up on in South Korea on May the 271 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:50,920 9th because the because the previous 272 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,800 president who was a very very right-wing 273 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,240 uh an anti-north Korea person in fact 274 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,760 the daughter of the former military 275 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,920 dictator uh was impeached and she's now 276 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:02,399 been arrested for for corruption a the 277 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:05,639 lead candidate in the polls in in South 278 00:12:02,399 --> 00:12:07,360 Korea is a much more Progressive person 279 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:09,480 who wants to have better relations with 280 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:12,120 China who's skeptical about Washington 281 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,199 who wants to have dialogue uh W with 282 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:17,600 with North 283 00:12:13,199 --> 00:12:20,120 Korea a month or so ago he was leading 284 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,519 by had a huge lead in the opinion polls 285 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,880 that's narrowed precisely because of the 286 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:26,800 ramping up of tensions at the moment and 287 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,720 that is also probably a factor in why 288 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,480 tensions are being ramped up at this 289 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,760 point because if Mr Moon the name of 290 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,600 this candidate is elected that's not 291 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,279 something that's to Washington's liking 292 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,160 but although his lead is narrowed he's 293 00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:41,519 uh still in he's still the leading 294 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:43,880 candidate in the presidential race and 295 00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:47,600 that's also why the 296 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:50,480 Thad anti-missile system is is being 297 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:54,480 speeded up in its deployment because 298 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:56,920 because he has expressed himself very 299 00:12:54,480 --> 00:13:00,760 skeptical about the about the need for 300 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:02,920 this um so uh 301 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,440 um these are some of the factors we have 302 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,399 to keep in mind well it's been 303 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,360 fascinating discussion uh thanks for 304 00:13:06,399 --> 00:13:11,079 coming on the sport Nick Keith thank you 305 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,199 don't go away because after the break 306 00:13:11,079 --> 00:13:17,199 we'll be discussing the US's slow motion 307 00:13:13,199 --> 00:13:17,199 coup against the socialist government of 308 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,680 Venezuela welcome back to Sputnik with 309 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,839 me Neil Clark standing in for Georgian 310 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:29,440 gaty under the leadership of the great 311 00:13:26,839 --> 00:13:31,600 Ugo Chavez benua became a be for 312 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,160 Progressive Politics the world over 313 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,320 poverty levels and literacy rates and 314 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,920 unemployment all fell and per capita 315 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,880 income doubled but the US and the 316 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,320 Western Financial elit weren't too happy 317 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,920 about the threat of a good example the 318 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,920 award-winning journalist John Pilger has 319 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,760 called the economic Warfare waged by the 320 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:51,360 us against Venezuela as a slow motion 321 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,600 coup with a country reeling from Street 322 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,160 protests against the government of 323 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,920 Chavez's successor Nicholas Maduro is 324 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,639 that coup now coming to fruition or can 325 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,880 the chista revolution survive against 326 00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:04,440 all the odds joining me now to discuss 327 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:06,480 the situation is Dr Francisco Dominguez 328 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,920 a senior Lector at middlex University 329 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,079 and the secretary of the Venezuela 330 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,759 solidarity campaign Francisco very warm 331 00:14:11,079 --> 00:14:13,920 welcome on board the Sputnik thank you 332 00:14:12,759 --> 00:14:15,480 for having me thank you thank you the 333 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,160 news coming from Venezuela in the 334 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,959 mainstream media is very bad isn't it 335 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,680 we're hearing stories the way it's been 336 00:14:18,959 --> 00:14:23,320 presented is we've got uh Street 337 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,040 protests against an unpopular government 338 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,160 uh some protesters have been killed 339 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:30,720 we're talking about very bad economic 340 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:32,399 figures uh a clampdown on dissent uh it 341 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,320 reminds me very similar the the the 342 00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:35,720 media coverage to Yugoslavia country I 343 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,079 reported from the late ' 90s where we 344 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,120 had a similar story demonization of the 345 00:14:38,079 --> 00:14:42,519 leader of the country it was a socialist 346 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,320 economy uh there were Street protests 347 00:14:42,519 --> 00:14:47,320 there the government was blamed for 348 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,000 clamping down on them uh is this the 349 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,360 same sort of process we're going on here 350 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,680 that we've seen played out in other 351 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,360 countries before that haven't done what 352 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:58,120 the US wanted them to do yeah what 353 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,800 they've done this to Chile to salvad Y 354 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,399 the the Democratic elected socialist 355 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,880 President of Chile between 1970 and 1973 356 00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:08,440 I know this very well because I happen 357 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:11,079 to be Chilean myself okay and it's more 358 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,600 or less the same almost identical not 359 00:15:11,079 --> 00:15:16,279 identical the same script pretty much 360 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:19,199 demonizing the victim and the victim 361 00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:21,639 doing everything possible to you know 362 00:15:19,199 --> 00:15:25,000 satisfy all sort of requirements that is 363 00:15:21,639 --> 00:15:26,839 still is WR and the key to this is the 364 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,040 degree of violence that is being used in 365 00:15:26,839 --> 00:15:30,800 order to try to overthrow the government 366 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,000 which is really the intention so if I 367 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,360 can give you some background to why this 368 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:38,160 is happening now and then we'll we'll 369 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:41,000 assess how serious it is the moment 370 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,800 wavis died back in 371 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:46,199 2013 the United States and you know 372 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,759 people the right wi around the continent 373 00:15:46,199 --> 00:15:50,319 and internationally drew the conclusion 374 00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:53,519 that this revolution that was a single 375 00:15:50,319 --> 00:15:56,720 man show was about to collap because he 376 00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:58,000 had gone the result as a consequence 377 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,319 they drew the conclusion that they have 378 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,319 to do something quite atic in order to 379 00:16:00,319 --> 00:16:04,240 go for the kill so they unleash an 380 00:16:02,319 --> 00:16:05,600 economic War very much reminiscent of 381 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,120 what they did against 382 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:12,079 salend in Chile which is holding 383 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,880 scarcity shortages and so on in order to 384 00:16:12,079 --> 00:16:15,600 make sure that the popular base 385 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,959 sanctions of course that the popular 386 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,959 base actually that support the 387 00:16:16,959 --> 00:16:20,680 government suffer the consequences and 388 00:16:18,959 --> 00:16:24,279 OB obviously with the intention to 389 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,759 alienate it and this war produce some 390 00:16:24,279 --> 00:16:28,959 significant results in other words it 391 00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:31,319 work in the following sense that by 2015 392 00:16:28,959 --> 00:16:33,959 15 when there were elections to the 393 00:16:31,319 --> 00:16:36,519 National Assembly the the opposition 394 00:16:33,959 --> 00:16:38,120 want a majority in the National Assembly 395 00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:39,920 and they thought they got what they 396 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:43,079 wanted and therefore they were going to 397 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:45,079 use 2016 in order to actually overthrow 398 00:16:43,079 --> 00:16:46,759 the government and the moment the 399 00:16:45,079 --> 00:16:50,279 opposition president of the National 400 00:16:46,759 --> 00:16:51,920 Assembly was inaugurated in January 2016 401 00:16:50,279 --> 00:16:54,040 he announced very publicly and very 402 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,800 explicitly that his job was to actually 403 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:59,399 out the government and he gave himself 404 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:01,240 and the National Assembly six months 405 00:16:59,399 --> 00:17:03,839 they tried absolutely everything I don't 406 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,120 have time to go into all the uh details 407 00:17:03,839 --> 00:17:07,439 in terms of what they tried but they 408 00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:09,160 Tred absolutely everything legally legal 409 00:17:07,439 --> 00:17:12,120 Constitution and constitutional you name 410 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:16,319 it they tried it and they miserably 411 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:18,559 failed by 2016 those who are funding the 412 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:20,400 position realized that this strategy of 413 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:23,120 domestic attempt to allate the 414 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:25,360 government failed so therefore they 415 00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:27,120 internationalize the int the attempt to 416 00:17:25,360 --> 00:17:29,240 overthrow the government and they're 417 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:31,360 using and this is what the problem is 418 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,320 they using the General Secretary of the 419 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:36,280 organization of American states 420 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,799 particularly as the driving force in 421 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,679 order to create their conditions 422 00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:43,240 internationally for some serious 423 00:17:39,679 --> 00:17:44,960 intervention inside Venezuela and this 424 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,520 has not produced the result because 425 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,919 despite the efforts of L almag the 426 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,600 General Secretary of the organization of 427 00:17:48,919 --> 00:17:52,200 American states which is organized 428 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,559 meeting after meeting after meeting 429 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,600 after meeting after meeting literally 430 00:17:53,559 --> 00:17:57,640 every two days every 3 days of the 431 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,000 permanent Council of the 432 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:03,360 OAS yeah hasn't been able to get enough 433 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,799 votes in order to sanction Venezuela and 434 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:07,640 therefore they decided the people who 435 00:18:05,799 --> 00:18:09,520 are organizing this decide that they 436 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,720 need something dramatic to take place in 437 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,600 the streets of Venezuela this is what is 438 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:18,120 going on now St this is the stage that 439 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:19,600 in and Almagro actually has with very 440 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,640 bad people around the world in order to 441 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,400 get what he wants which is the outting 442 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,280 of the Venezuelan government he for 443 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,159 example has gone to the United States to 444 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,559 with none other than Marco Rubio and 445 00:18:27,159 --> 00:18:29,320 that sort of part of the Republican 446 00:18:28,559 --> 00:18:31,679 Party 447 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,240 to discuss Venezuela he has also Le and 448 00:18:31,679 --> 00:18:35,880 I participated in meetings with Alvar 449 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,559 former pres of columia you know extreme 450 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,320 right winger very well known for his 451 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:42,320 connection with paramilitarism and other 452 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,640 stuff so what is going on now is exactly 453 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:47,720 to get as much as possible of a street 454 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,600 violence so that the media that are very 455 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,280 supportive with the mainstream media 456 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,120 actually produce a hype and this is 457 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,799 where we're at yeah and and the 458 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,720 achievements of the first periods of the 459 00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:58,080 Chavez period how much of those have 460 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,039 been reversed because of this economic 461 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,520 Warfare because I mentioned earlier 462 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:02,840 poverty levels have been reduced 463 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,159 unemployment of course there's been a 464 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,760 big economic impact hasn't there from 465 00:19:04,159 --> 00:19:08,520 this Warfare which is intentional just I 466 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,000 want to add two things number one there 467 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,280 is an executive decree issued by Obama 468 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:17,039 which was renewed a year later declaring 469 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:18,760 Venezuela an extraordinary and threat to 470 00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:20,840 the National Security of the United 471 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,120 States and declare the United States in 472 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:26,840 a St of emergency he renewed it one year 473 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:29,320 later and very recently literally two 474 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,720 five days ago seven days ago um 475 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:34,720 something like that Kurt tided who is 476 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,360 the general the Admiral in charge of the 477 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,280 US Southern command ISU the statement to 478 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:40,559 the media and to the Senate saying that 479 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,880 you know the situation in Venezuela 480 00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:44,799 require a compelling in Regional 481 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,520 intervention so that is extremely 482 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:48,760 threatened this is what the problem is 483 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,840 in terms of the uh the 484 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:55,039 achievement the budget has increased in 485 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:59,159 terms of social expenditure from 64% 3 486 00:19:55,039 --> 00:20:04,080 years ago to 67% 3 2 years ago 487 00:19:59,159 --> 00:20:05,720 to 71% last year and to 7 74% last year 488 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,440 the number of houses that the government 489 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,200 has built over the last 2 three years is 490 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,320 in the region of 2 million which are 491 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,919 heavily subsidized houses the number of 492 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,520 Pensions have been increased clearly 493 00:20:14,919 --> 00:20:18,640 this is no a revolution which is about 494 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,799 to collapse and Venezuela has paid all 495 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,880 these Financial Obligations a week ago 496 00:20:20,799 --> 00:20:25,520 Venezuela just paid in bonds and 497 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,600 interest 2.7 billions in other words 498 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,679 feel absolutely alligation the trouble 499 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:32,120 is that because the private setor 500 00:20:29,679 --> 00:20:33,840 controls the supply and the distribution 501 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:35,880 of food that's where the problem lies 502 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,559 and they're using this and the violence 503 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,600 in order to produce all these figures qu 504 00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:41,200 inflation and so on which is basically 505 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,799 induced we've got an alliance haven't we 506 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,360 between the US and the business Elites 507 00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:46,280 of Venezuela haven't we the very rich to 508 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,880 to destroy this government but also with 509 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,280 rightwing governments around the 510 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,080 rightwing governments in the region um 511 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:55,799 the the you know the government of 512 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:58,240 Brazil which emerges as as a of which is 513 00:20:55,799 --> 00:21:00,360 very illegal they are Central today the 514 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,320 AR government with extremely right wing 515 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:04,760 who applying horrible policies and 516 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:07,000 neoliberal policies in Argentina is also 517 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,080 part of it this is the alliance really 518 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,919 with the governments and the oligarchy 519 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,440 in Venezuela itself yes because 520 00:21:10,919 --> 00:21:13,600 Venezuela is more isolated than it was 521 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,080 perhaps sort of seven or eight years ago 522 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,640 as you said Argentina change of 523 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,120 government Brazil too and so it hasn't 524 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,240 got quite the the number of regional 525 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,440 friends it did have the regional forces 526 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,480 have changed in the region but I think 527 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,400 it's tempor but obviously this is what 528 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,960 the United States are using you know to 529 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,520 capitalize by using the organization 530 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,919 Americans in other words the United 531 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,360 States is very clever using a original 532 00:21:31,919 --> 00:21:35,760 body and they are standing behind 533 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:37,240 pretending that he not they're not 534 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,919 Central to it although everybody knows 535 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,120 that they're Central let's talk about 536 00:21:38,919 --> 00:21:41,960 the street protest because the way the 537 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:43,720 mainstream media is is presenting though 538 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,600 a very one-sided way isn't it as if this 539 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,480 is the people of Venezuela rising up 540 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,760 against this dictator it's interesting 541 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,480 how this word dictator is used about 542 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,279 Maduro despite his election victories of 543 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,640 course chvz I think won 16 isn't it 16 544 00:21:53,279 --> 00:21:57,640 elections yet he was still called a 545 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,120 dictator 20 elections sorry and he was 546 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,440 still labeled whenever you see an 547 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,200 article about in mainstream media as a 548 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,840 dictator uh that's the way it's being 549 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,400 presented in the mainstream that you 550 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,200 know it's an uprising uh and yet we hear 551 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,039 a lot of report on other media 552 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,880 alternative media about chavistas 553 00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:14,200 supporters chavistas being murdered by 554 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,480 by and violence being used against 555 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,720 supporters of the government we don't 556 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,440 hear much about that at all in the 557 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,960 western media do we well they're trying 558 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,600 to to isolate the government of 559 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,720 Venezuela particularly in Europe but 560 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,679 also elsewhere in the region in order to 561 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,640 create a context for the United States 562 00:22:25,679 --> 00:22:30,720 to intervene in interal Affairs in a 563 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:33,600 very massive way remember Donald Trump 564 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:37,000 just launched missiles into Syria 565 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,080 without any real justification yes and I 566 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,919 think in the context of the US sat 567 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,360 command making that thly threatened 568 00:22:40,919 --> 00:22:44,799 statement and in the Obama decree that 569 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:47,000 Venezuela is a threat to the National 570 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:48,520 Security of the US the contest might be 571 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,440 created and this is the most dangerous 572 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,480 part of it might be created for the 573 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,559 United States to escalate situation into 574 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,840 such an extent that they might just be 575 00:22:54,559 --> 00:22:59,919 compelled as they put themselves to 576 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,279 intervene militar in vene 577 00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:02,760 which I hope they don't because there 578 00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:04,039 would be a time when the US would think 579 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,679 finally they've got to get rid of this 580 00:23:04,039 --> 00:23:07,400 government yeah and if they can't get 581 00:23:05,679 --> 00:23:08,600 rid of it through Street protest they 582 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,080 can't get rid of it that they would 583 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,880 actually think about military 584 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,480 Intervention which is what they've done 585 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,360 before and interestingly the governor of 586 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,840 Venezuela president Maduro despite all 587 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:20,240 of this is's still insisting on dialogue 588 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,960 still offering them a table of dialogue 589 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,480 he's still using the sponsorship of the 590 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,480 Vatican he's still using you know sapto 591 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,159 the former president of Spain as part of 592 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,000 the team that actually is encouraging 593 00:23:28,159 --> 00:23:31,000 dial 594 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,640 the position Point Blank refuses to 595 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,799 discuss all they want is to ask the 596 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,120 government which they say it explicitly 597 00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:39,400 every single day and what is disgusting 598 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:41,840 is that the media here failed to report 599 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,760 for example there was an attack on a 600 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,600 hospital a maternity hospital that 601 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:50,320 lasted 3 hours they tried to set fire on 602 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:52,480 it 54 babies wow were in in danger 603 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,080 mothers in labor have to stop giving 604 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,320 labor doing labor because of that attack 605 00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:00,120 nurses and doctors and patients were 606 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,919 actually had to be evacuated and 607 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:04,400 mainstream media this is absolutely 608 00:24:01,919 --> 00:24:05,720 disgusting refuse to publish this 609 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,960 because it contradicts The Narrative 610 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,559 contradicts The Narrative The Narrative 611 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,400 is these people who are fighting against 612 00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:11,880 Venezuela are Democrats who are fighting 613 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,600 against authoritarian government and 614 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,960 Democrats do not do those things well 615 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,240 they do every single day absolutely what 616 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,919 can people do who care about Venezuela 617 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,240 who want to show solidarity and support 618 00:24:19,919 --> 00:24:23,799 for this country Under Siege basically 619 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,080 what can they do to help well I think 620 00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:26,919 the most important thing is to try to 621 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,799 get the alternative media there are 622 00:24:26,919 --> 00:24:30,399 plenty of media unfortunately most of in 623 00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:31,760 Spanish but there is also some in 624 00:24:30,399 --> 00:24:34,080 English that we ourselves in the 625 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,360 Venezuela sity campaign produced which 626 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,000 actually produce the factual situation 627 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,919 the truth and so on it doesn't mean to 628 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:43,240 say doesn't have problem it does but the 629 00:24:40,919 --> 00:24:45,480 very fact that the intention today is to 630 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,039 actually demonize the government so much 631 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,000 is that we are fighting against a very 632 00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:51,480 giant you know operation which is 633 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,039 worldwide it's massive he very big 634 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,880 however people can see through um what 635 00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:57,640 is going on now and the Very fact that 636 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,279 the government insists with the 637 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:03,120 sponsorship of Pope Francis the first as 638 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:05,720 well as others on dialogue and 639 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:07,279 discussion and constructive engagement 640 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,960 is an indication that the government has 641 00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:10,919 no interest why should the government 642 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,279 have interest in killing people with all 643 00:25:10,919 --> 00:25:14,159 it's going to do is just going to 644 00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:16,799 intensify this campaign which is 645 00:25:14,159 --> 00:25:18,679 intending to out so people can do that 646 00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:21,120 and you know make sure that they don't 647 00:25:18,679 --> 00:25:22,919 fall for these demonization which 648 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,080 sometimes is so crude thank you very 649 00:25:22,919 --> 00:25:28,320 much for coming on the sport it's been a 650 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,640 fascinating talk thank you my pleasure 651 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,520 well unfortunately that's all we've got 652 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,960 time for this week I've been new Clark 653 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:38,399 and as George would 654 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,399 say it's been marvelous