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[Music]

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[Music]

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welcome to Sputnik over in the world

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with me George Bush I've given up

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interfering in other people's countries

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and looking for non-existent WMDs and

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decided to try my hand at presenting

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Sputnik instead oh no no you don't

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George I'm you're Clark I am presenting

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Sputnik for Georgian country now they've

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got an awful lot of coffee in Brazil but

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they're also got an awful lot of

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political and economic turmoil - nearly

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a year after assuming his presidency

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Michel temer is overseeing the country's

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worst recession people are taking to the

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streets and the anti-corruption

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investigation operation car wash quits

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seat Emma himself impeached just like

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his predecessor Dilma Rouseff well the

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country wake up and smell the coffee and

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can they recapture the optimism of just

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a few years ago joining us this week

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help us find out is the analyst Victor

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Fraga picked a very warm welcome on to

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the Sputnik thank you very much going on

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so let's talk about operation car wash

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this giant anti-corruption probe that's

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been going on now for how many years two

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or three years yeah but really it's been

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going on for about three years

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initially it look excellent people

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thoughts this is a huge corruption

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scandal you are unveiling a lot of

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wrongdoing and ending oil giants but

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then slowly people began to realize that

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the objective operation car wash wasn't

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true to destroy corruption but to

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destroy a single political party the

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Brazilian Workers Party okay proof of

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that is not a single politician from the

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PSD BD the neoliberal party of Brazil

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has ever been someone to given to give a

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statement that let alone being

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prosecuted while people from the Workers

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Party have been consistently persecuted

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Dilma was ousted not because of

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operation car wash the duty

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an accounting technicality called fiscal

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perfectly so moving a budget from one

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from one area to the next something very

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common every single every single

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president in office since the

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dictatorship had done it so operation

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carwash plus the coup d'etat which we

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saw last year where instruments in under

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fight against the Workers Party the

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demonization of the Workers Party so

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that they could be removed from

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presidency and that the PSD be with the

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party in power right now which is

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technically a center party official term

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as party but then they have implemented

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a very very aggressive neoliberal agenda

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the Guardian label that the most extreme

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the harshest neoliberal package in the

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world lots of cuts and spending hasn't

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announced yet and the pension age is

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being free isn't it yet should occur

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fourteen forty nine years of work and

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public spend in health scaling education

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has been frozen for twenty years I can't

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think of years for 20 years for twenty

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years so they have amended the

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Constitution to implement these extreme

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changes as extremely violent changes

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they would not be able to do that under

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the Workers Party because it's being a

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select wing party which has implemented

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a lot of social programs has lifted

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forty million people out of poverty so

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all of the sudden you had operational

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carwash be a risk coup d'etat with a

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thin veneer of an impeachment work the

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Brazilian Constitution does allow for an

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impeachment but it's for a high crime or

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a misdemeanor not an accounting

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technicality even Michel temer himself

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has recognized the dome has been ousted

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not because she's corrupt but because

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she failed to embrace what he calls

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bridge to the future it's his extremely

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liberal program I would call it bridge

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or the 19th century bridge branches

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slavery but he said he said himself

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she's not corrupt

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she has been asked them because she

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failure to embrace the bridge for the

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future so this and it's she's she's

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really talk about a coup here on the

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echoing political party a destroyer

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in political party Raziel wasn't the

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more outraged about this internationally

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well I saw pro-democracy forces in the

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West we haven't heard too much about you

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have way yeah the media the

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international media has been very quiet

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and reserved about it they've they've

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mistaken Glee reporter DOMA has was

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ousted on corruption charges and that

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that's extremely dangerous because what

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we're seeing now there are a lot of

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things surfacing is you know is that the

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the defeated candidate has been under

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audio has been leaked of him bribing

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someone from a company for 2 million for

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2 million highs above half a million

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pounds and threatening to kill the

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person if he did the plea bargaining and

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reported him that that's in an audio so

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and people are stopping to believe the

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political establishment and there's

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there's very dangerous rhetoric everyone

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in politics is corrupt no not everyone

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in politics is corrupt so that what's

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really behind this is is it a case of

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the Brazilian financial elites the rich

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glasses in Brazil the establishment

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trying to sabotage the workers parties

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at what's really well relations of this

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well it's that so the old elites have

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lost a lot of the privileges so I have

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literally heard people complaining I

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used to have three maids now they're

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going to university I can't have I can't

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hire a maid anymore

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I have literally heard people say that

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more than once here in different

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contexts so the old elites have have

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seen the some of their benefits slash I

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swear needless to say mercy still have

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huge social gaps Brazil was the 13th

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economy when a when Lula when Lula took

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power in 2002 by the time Dilma was

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ousted Brazil was the six world economy

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ahead of the UK forty million people had

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been lifted out of poverty and Brazil

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had paid off his external debt with the

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IMF in its entirety and was beginning

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she set up a bank with the BRICS well

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the US I used to sing other countries in

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their back yards not doing a lot of

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noise and once they do a little bit of

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noise the

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get let's get these noisy people out

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let's let's stage a coup

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so the us have been deeply involved in

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in everything to happen in Brazil I'll

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give you just some pieces of evidence

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the American ambassador Lea and I out

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during the coup she was also the

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ambassador in Honduras and in Paraguay

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precisely at the time of the coup

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so she's the coup experts no question

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about that the judge says your model who

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had the anti Workers Party carwash

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investigations he has he has links to

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the CIA it has been revealed through

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documenting WikiLeaks the protests on

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the streets the pseudo student movements

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which asked for the image to be asked

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that have been financed by by lobbies

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said the Koch Industries and this is no

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secrets if you go to the coffee industry

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the oil refinery in Texas you will see

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pictures of the the leader of movement

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ago MBL King category he so these are no

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student movements these are movements

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financed by very very reactionary

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organizations in the US and most

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important of all the day after the vote

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of the coup and the lower house of

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parliament in Congress in Brazil one of

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the leading figures of the neoliberal

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party are Louisiana's travel to the u.s.

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to meet with Thomas Shannon who is the

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most senior person in Latin American

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affairs under Obama who reports directly

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to Obama so what what we're seeing

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really is a counter hegemonic movement

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the u.s. getting involved joka dicing

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destroying democracy in Brazil with with

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a view to undermine your ought only the

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BRICS but oil in Brazil it has been said

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that the u.s. spent trillions of dollars

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to claim the oil in Iraq in Brazil they

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only had to lobby a few MPs so what's

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happening now literally overnight the

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illegitimate coup mongering government

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destroyed and privatized they'd be oil

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production in Brazil we haven't reached

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the oil yet the oil is very deep down in

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the Atlantic

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presort because there's a layer of salt

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at the bottom of the atlantic and you

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have to go beyond that so it takes many

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years and the oil has just been being

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discovered but there's there's money

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which was going to go to health care and

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education and the dilma is now being

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sold to true international organizations

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the first company issue to grab a piece

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of the cake was a was a Norwegian

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company but a lot more are going to

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follow and the oil industry in Brazil is

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going to be largely privatized it's a

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message they're trying to send out don't

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get don't get a metalworker

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but such as Lula to run your country we

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go we're gonna we're going to get there

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and get get rid of him now they're

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trying to shoot let's talk about those a

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yes but be an absolutely head in the

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polls and he's the most popular

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candidate to the next presidential

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elections so what's happened now is

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there was the audio leak from is univers

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him basically saying I won two million

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and and the plea-bargaining guy yeah be

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shot

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we should make kill him if he doesn't if

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he doesn't follow our instructions or

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something to that interest another

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senator was caught saying a as you know

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his best friend was caught saying just

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this week I don't do anything wrong all

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I do is traffic drugs so that's how bad

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it is in Brazil you have hard proof

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evidence you have a video or someone

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handing a suitcase of is your nervous

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cousin handing a suitcase full of money

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for the bribe as well what how cada can

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be evidence can collect the hologram

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yeah that's the only that's the only

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harder piece of evidence I can possibly

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conceive and yet they're not taking any

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action against that and against the

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Workers Party against Lula they have

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been searching for a crime searching for

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a reason to prosecute Lula and a very

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important phrase that a judge has coined

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in Brazil who is also a ballon yours his

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name he's involved in the car wash

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investigations he he said we have no

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proof against Luna but we have

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conviction that he's guilty

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so we are seeing law fair so Lula is not

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being prosecuted he's been persecuted

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[Music]

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you might be familiar with Geoffrey

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Robertson who is Lucy Australia

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Australian British human rights lawyer

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who is lawyer he says the problem with

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Brazil is the justice system in Brazil

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is the studio of the European system so

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it's an old-fashioned European system

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which no longer applies in Europe where

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the same person collects the evidence

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judges and sentences you so there's a

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judge as your model he collects the

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proof at his convenience at his leisure

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he judges and he sentences Lulla judge

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jury and executioner where he works and

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yeah and this plea bargaining which was

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actually introduced by Dilma with the

276
00:12:17,550 --> 00:12:23,339
best of intention but plea bargaining

277
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has become equivalent to torture in the

278
00:12:23,339 --> 00:12:30,000
sense that the be person being accused

279
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you will say anything that they wished

280
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,680
you hear in order in order to reduce the

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sentence so yeah yeah let's go to you

282
00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:38,610
yeah you want you're here Lula's guilty

283
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I'll tell you Lula is guilty and despite

284
00:12:38,610 --> 00:12:44,160
that there's no no there's no evidence

285
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yet and there will not be any evidence

286
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:49,950
that Lula is involved in in any

287
00:12:46,620 --> 00:12:51,630
corruption scandal so on the other hand

288
00:12:49,950 --> 00:12:53,550
what's happening in Brazil is so serious

289
00:12:51,630 --> 00:12:56,100
with the accusations against as you

290
00:12:53,550 --> 00:12:58,170
nervous because people no longer believe

291
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in the political establishment and even

292
00:12:58,170 --> 00:13:01,260
the right-wing people who argued oh we

293
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got rid of the Workers Party because

294
00:13:01,260 --> 00:13:05,580
they're corrupt and now that they see

295
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that the neoliberal party is far more

296
00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:11,190
corrupt far more crooks they are simply

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arguing everyone is the same they're all

298
00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:18,300
corrupt and such rhetoric is extremely

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dangerous because if you demoralize an

300
00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:22,350
entire political establishment you could

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open the back door to a military coup

302
00:13:22,350 --> 00:13:26,339
d'etat or chancing far more dangerous so

303
00:13:24,990 --> 00:13:29,430
there's a big question mark hanging

304
00:13:26,339 --> 00:13:30,900
above Brazil right now well thank you

305
00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:32,370
very much Victor McKellar on the sputnik

306
00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:34,529
and shedding some light on the current

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political situation in Brazil and we do

308
00:13:34,529 --> 00:13:38,760
need some lights and gave urgency don't

309
00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:40,440
go away because we'll be discussing

310
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,839
political unrest in another BRICS

311
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country find out which one after the

312
00:13:42,839 --> 00:13:45,020
break

313
00:13:47,890 --> 00:13:52,340
welcome back to Sputnik with me Neil

314
00:13:50,330 --> 00:13:55,190
Clark standing in for my good friends

315
00:13:52,340 --> 00:13:57,200
George and Gary another BRICS country

316
00:13:55,190 --> 00:13:59,450
facing a neoliberal backlash in South

317
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Africa thousands have been marching

318
00:13:59,450 --> 00:14:04,060
against President Jacob Zuma who's been

319
00:14:01,790 --> 00:14:06,440
hit by a series of corruption scandals

320
00:14:04,060 --> 00:14:08,510
activists of the governing ANC however

321
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,850
have accused the opposition democratic

322
00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:13,040
alliance who this week late reason and

323
00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:15,230
corruption charges against Zuma of being

324
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:18,710
run by wealthy whites and big business

325
00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:21,320
CEOs George Erie is an our list and

326
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:23,420
expert on the region George a very warm

327
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,250
welcome on board the Sputnik thanks are

328
00:14:23,420 --> 00:14:26,960
coming on you have been to South Africa

329
00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:28,850
I think was five or six times in the

330
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,320
last few months haven't you and didn't

331
00:14:28,850 --> 00:14:33,320
pick up from the streets about what's

332
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:35,570
really going on there Oh South African

333
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,610
areas you know in a in a in a in a

334
00:14:35,570 --> 00:14:40,040
moment of in a crossroad the moment that

335
00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:42,350
what I call the conjuncture and went

336
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:45,260
back on juncture I mean the moment is

337
00:14:42,350 --> 00:14:47,270
all processes cohere into how something

338
00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:50,120
is going on and so however you can feel

339
00:14:47,270 --> 00:14:53,000
the pulse of people being angry on the

340
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:56,090
street okay and they are angry and so

341
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,940
what we practice the articulation of

342
00:14:56,090 --> 00:15:01,430
that anger comes in the guise of you

343
00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:03,560
know jobs comes a question of students

344
00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:05,600
about curriculum questions about student

345
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,160
grounds because it about violence on the

346
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,160
street and so there's a hope that the

347
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:13,610
level of disquiet in the in the country

348
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:17,840
it what it has in God it hasn't kind of

349
00:15:13,610 --> 00:15:20,030
weird into a coherent narrative in which

350
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:23,300
people can buy into so there's disquiet

351
00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:25,460
or one end and the kind of end a sort of

352
00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:28,010
dispersal of opinion all over the place

353
00:15:25,460 --> 00:15:32,270
and what does does it makes it difficult

354
00:15:28,010 --> 00:15:33,980
to see somebody displacing the ANC right

355
00:15:32,270 --> 00:15:36,050
in that sense because where are they

356
00:15:33,980 --> 00:15:38,000
Democratic Alliance I mean it would it

357
00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:40,610
refer to call them I mean we've had the

358
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,020
obvious said about the a ANC activists

359
00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:44,510
have said that these is basically a

360
00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:46,970
party financed by rich whites and

361
00:15:44,510 --> 00:15:48,140
business CEOs they haven't probably got

362
00:15:46,970 --> 00:15:50,360
the job though have a lot majority

363
00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:51,680
support I mean I mean they are the main

364
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,180
opposition party aren't they but there

365
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,520
was also opposition within the ANC

366
00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:58,220
causes will include in the ANC

367
00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:00,530
take the da for first I mean it maybe

368
00:15:58,220 --> 00:16:02,750
all those things when and where area but

369
00:16:00,530 --> 00:16:05,990
actually born with the DA is that they

370
00:16:02,750 --> 00:16:09,500
really have overlays even now are unable

371
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:12,860
to often South Africans acquire and

372
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:15,230
alternative right so they simply are a

373
00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:17,270
kind of anti Jacob Zuma or aunty

374
00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:19,580
somebody else but they haven't got

375
00:16:17,270 --> 00:16:22,520
something that is coherent that oppose

376
00:16:19,580 --> 00:16:25,010
apartheid South Africa or even the

377
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:27,020
region can buy into they don't they

378
00:16:25,010 --> 00:16:29,210
cannot deliver in the main opposition's

379
00:16:27,020 --> 00:16:34,040
ever could become from the ANC itself

380
00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:36,130
and then I well if it could do but I

381
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:39,170
would like to kind of like with

382
00:16:36,130 --> 00:16:42,650
qualification I think the challenge for

383
00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:47,390
self July for the ANC is how it could is

384
00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:51,080
about how it can sink a future without

385
00:16:47,390 --> 00:16:54,230
being in control right it is no longer

386
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,330
in control of events or you know it is

387
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:59,090
not in control in that way it is still

388
00:16:56,330 --> 00:17:02,480
there but it doesn't have a language of

389
00:16:59,090 --> 00:17:05,480
articulation that is if you like touches

390
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:07,270
the popular is probably did before and

391
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:10,670
one can explain that in a number of ways

392
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:13,100
part of it is to do with if you go back

393
00:17:10,670 --> 00:17:15,820
to code esse well the moment in which

394
00:17:13,100 --> 00:17:19,400
they live is a subtle compromise between

395
00:17:15,820 --> 00:17:21,290
capital and yes and and and aunty

396
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,400
apartheid you know liberation struggle

397
00:17:21,290 --> 00:17:24,950
zone

398
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,110
this is really a compromise and part of

399
00:17:24,950 --> 00:17:30,080
the problem without compromise it left

400
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:32,810
the question of social injustice if I

401
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,860
here untouched and what happens in that

402
00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:36,920
moment the truth and reconciliation

403
00:17:33,860 --> 00:17:40,040
committee come ring and turns

404
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:43,120
everybody's focus towards individuals

405
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:47,180
and it was the problem of the corrupt

406
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:49,430
police officer or the corrupt judge or

407
00:17:47,180 --> 00:17:52,220
whatever might be they have not desist

408
00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:54,230
on the system Sophia so a lot of energy

409
00:17:52,220 --> 00:17:57,440
diverted people's attention to the

410
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:59,860
economic away from the economic now that

411
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:02,990
is what is returned with a vengeance

412
00:17:59,860 --> 00:18:04,100
well I read George that incredible

413
00:18:02,990 --> 00:18:06,650
twenty odd years since the end of

414
00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:08,360
apartheid but 90% of the Wellness of

415
00:18:06,650 --> 00:18:09,380
Africa is still owned by ten percent of

416
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:11,120
the people and these are mainly

417
00:18:09,380 --> 00:18:12,830
why because that's precisely where

418
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:15,020
that's what I'm getting it I got what is

419
00:18:12,830 --> 00:18:16,430
letter has read they melanoma can guess

420
00:18:15,020 --> 00:18:18,260
we might want to say something different

421
00:18:16,430 --> 00:18:20,510
you might not want to ask if you go to

422
00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:23,450
the central canons of the freedom chakra

423
00:18:20,510 --> 00:18:25,730
I'm question about about land about the

424
00:18:23,450 --> 00:18:28,400
economic about all those issues to do

425
00:18:25,730 --> 00:18:32,750
with what I call social justices they

426
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:35,390
are left untouched it is a compromise in

427
00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:38,510
order to end apartheid and that is they

428
00:18:35,390 --> 00:18:42,440
to end racial room in that way

429
00:18:38,510 --> 00:18:44,240
okay legal racial they have it remain

430
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,920
they are a bit in the everyday element

431
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,050
the economic is still very much

432
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,240
controlled in the same way okay

433
00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:52,520
there are a few black folk here and

434
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,950
there who just wanna just you know what

435
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,450
I call The Cosby Show Brigade it kind of

436
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:59,150
the currently kind of like what do you

437
00:18:56,450 --> 00:19:01,430
have is a sort of black capitalism

438
00:18:59,150 --> 00:19:01,910
anything yeah you know Gupta's on one

439
00:19:01,430 --> 00:19:06,220
end

440
00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:10,010
yeah and Ramaphosa is no different and

441
00:19:06,220 --> 00:19:12,170
open i'm or another a different faces of

442
00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:14,810
the same thing okay

443
00:19:12,170 --> 00:19:18,950
and without facing this same thing

444
00:19:14,810 --> 00:19:21,830
without asking what decolonizing that

445
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:24,290
economic in south africa is on a

446
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:27,560
precipice and not the challenge for the

447
00:19:24,290 --> 00:19:31,190
entry right it can't and and we end it

448
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,570
it's not because that mallamma EF f is

449
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:36,170
the answer

450
00:19:32,570 --> 00:19:38,990
the issue is the EFS speaks to that

451
00:19:36,170 --> 00:19:40,820
condition yes obviously speak to the

452
00:19:38,990 --> 00:19:43,430
question so some of it is to do with the

453
00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:46,190
land you know unlike Maori in South

454
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:49,340
Africa in South Africa there used to

455
00:19:46,190 --> 00:19:51,530
cook the guitar the cities to write the

456
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:53,030
people who build the cities of London

457
00:19:51,530 --> 00:19:55,310
call them the wretched of the earth you

458
00:19:53,030 --> 00:19:57,650
know the long day will be the ones who

459
00:19:55,310 --> 00:19:59,360
say we want John is dead too so you

460
00:19:57,650 --> 00:20:00,800
can't even if you start with

461
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:03,650
distributing the land is getting

462
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:06,770
important it will get to these other

463
00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:10,040
sides of occupant three okay and at end

464
00:20:06,770 --> 00:20:14,870
and as more people store these processes

465
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:17,180
of social injustice the more violent if

466
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:19,220
you like it's likely to be and the

467
00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:22,410
difficult for South Africa is to think

468
00:20:19,220 --> 00:20:24,810
with that background of anger that

469
00:20:22,410 --> 00:20:26,730
disgustin you can touch it as you kind

470
00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:28,950
of like as you can move around whether

471
00:20:26,730 --> 00:20:31,410
it's on the sidewalk whether it's in the

472
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:34,130
bars we need to do with the violence

473
00:20:31,410 --> 00:20:36,690
towards women with a all these kinds of

474
00:20:34,130 --> 00:20:39,960
violence to become a kind of index of

475
00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:42,000
dim quiet in enjoyment so you're saying

476
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,070
that the problems today really do stem

477
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,600
from the compromises that were made 20

478
00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:47,100
odd years ago that's why I'm not dealing

479
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,510
with the economic reform that's really

480
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:50,550
not changing with economic ownership

481
00:20:48,510 --> 00:20:53,250
that's not industrial and that's right

482
00:20:50,550 --> 00:20:55,260
so is there a hope or chance that Zuma

483
00:20:53,250 --> 00:20:57,990
may actually start to tackle these

484
00:20:55,260 --> 00:21:00,210
things now the ANC in order to lose its

485
00:20:57,990 --> 00:21:02,250
popularity well I don't now a part that

486
00:21:00,210 --> 00:21:04,620
is gone 20 years ago we can then move on

487
00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:06,420
economics I don't I don't frame it that

488
00:21:04,620 --> 00:21:07,830
way but you know where the super can do

489
00:21:06,420 --> 00:21:09,630
it that is no excuse

490
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:11,580
uncle this is part of the story I don't

491
00:21:09,630 --> 00:21:13,710
say it that way okay I think the whole

492
00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:16,470
class of both the political class and

493
00:21:13,710 --> 00:21:20,130
the intellectual class know there's a

494
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:22,260
struggle of ideas about how to think a

495
00:21:20,130 --> 00:21:24,390
future in which people can live together

496
00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:26,370
what does it mean you know on one hand

497
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:28,920
was the promise of building and

498
00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:32,090
non-racial societal africa nothing was

499
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:35,130
in front of building and machination a

500
00:21:32,090 --> 00:21:36,840
non-racial world wonderful stuff in it

501
00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:38,910
it hasn't been achieved not quite a

502
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,640
business not over there is wonderful

503
00:21:38,910 --> 00:21:43,320
marker yes the economic you know what we

504
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,350
didn't do was look at the way in which

505
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,780
that touches the economic and at the

506
00:21:46,350 --> 00:21:51,600
same time think about what what what an

507
00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:54,630
economic is for easily accountants

508
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:57,810
making sure the books are in order or is

509
00:21:54,630 --> 00:22:00,420
it about serious economic liberation so

510
00:21:57,810 --> 00:22:03,000
that people can in fresh water all the

511
00:22:00,420 --> 00:22:05,450
Munter about you know about service

512
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,650
delivery which Finance means of another

513
00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:08,070
importance it might be sometimes a red

514
00:22:07,650 --> 00:22:10,890
herring

515
00:22:08,070 --> 00:22:14,040
unless one goes back to the central

516
00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:15,810
questions of social injustice left over

517
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,000
from the compromise that cabeça

518
00:22:15,810 --> 00:22:20,310
South Africa is in search of the waters

519
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,740
so how do we see this panning out George

520
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:24,330
how do you see the future for Zoomer

521
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:25,980
particularly and for the ANC they are

522
00:22:24,330 --> 00:22:28,140
still on course aren't they to win next

523
00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:32,130
year's elections according to polls um I

524
00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:34,800
think I think what they will win because

525
00:22:32,130 --> 00:22:35,830
there's no querent all done with you mmm

526
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,280
right that's the

527
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:41,320
they win it won't win because they they

528
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,690
are interlocked intellectually of the

529
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,910
right path right so you know there are

530
00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:47,830
squabbles in the house yes like the

531
00:22:45,910 --> 00:22:50,800
squabbles in the house aren't going to

532
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:53,080
disrupt them being maintaining even a

533
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,090
reduced majority of course it is you

534
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,040
know can never tell how things are when

535
00:22:55,090 --> 00:22:59,560
is no techniques were granted it just

536
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:02,710
I'm saying that in the absence of a

537
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:05,680
coherent alternative okay that

538
00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:08,200
challenges the a and three in a hegemony

539
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:12,640
sense they will win now what does that

540
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:15,760
mean they problem for the DA sort of

541
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:18,160
thinks himself in clothes of the past it

542
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,170
hugs from some golden moment not only

543
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,090
interesting nothing I know don't rat

544
00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:24,370
amazing Jonas Bergen March in our city

545
00:23:22,090 --> 00:23:25,870
in this uber car driving driven one

546
00:23:24,370 --> 00:23:27,880
person and I'm talking with serving

547
00:23:25,870 --> 00:23:30,190
driver what it's also well you can was

548
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,930
demonstrating can imagine think of it

549
00:23:30,190 --> 00:23:33,730
before the demonstration are these kind

550
00:23:31,930 --> 00:23:35,200
of white liberal kids and they don't

551
00:23:33,730 --> 00:23:37,450
even know how to blow it with a sailor

552
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:40,570
and then face something about the kind

553
00:23:37,450 --> 00:23:43,420
of nature of of protest it's not saying

554
00:23:40,570 --> 00:23:45,520
like folk are not involved in it but it

555
00:23:43,420 --> 00:23:48,310
is a kind of it is a descent of the

556
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:51,580
well-off it's not a descent of we have

557
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:53,670
not right together and what suma does is

558
00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:57,040
to capitalize on that

559
00:23:53,670 --> 00:23:59,830
really yeah always true is to go and

560
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:03,160
evoke those images over yesterday and

561
00:23:59,830 --> 00:24:05,650
it'll get him through right right so and

562
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,550
the other thing is the only people who

563
00:24:05,650 --> 00:24:11,560
can remove soma is the NC itself

564
00:24:08,550 --> 00:24:13,150
recalling him Riley noting the business

565
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,890
will be valid warrant for the Nelson

566
00:24:13,150 --> 00:24:16,720
Mandela Foundation just reading this

567
00:24:14,890 --> 00:24:18,250
weekly of school for him beer that

568
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,770
counts so there is some isn't that

569
00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:22,720
within the NGO order the news remember

570
00:24:20,770 --> 00:24:25,420
like is normally NC it's not anything

571
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,430
like we mustn't even allusion to King

572
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:29,440
the Nelson Mandela Foundation or any

573
00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:31,630
foundation without matter everybody is

574
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,700
foundation is our hero you might just

575
00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:36,010
ask yourself who praised deserve

576
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:37,750
analogies on this is a portrait they do

577
00:24:36,010 --> 00:24:40,270
not function but they are not invincible

578
00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:42,550
you know that means they can they can

579
00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:45,310
occupy the news media daily you know

580
00:24:42,550 --> 00:24:46,550
they are celebrities of a liberal moment

581
00:24:45,310 --> 00:24:49,340
but there's no

582
00:24:46,550 --> 00:24:51,950
the one who delivered him felt like the

583
00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:54,380
result there not one who devotes then

584
00:24:51,950 --> 00:24:58,040
not the ones who influenced the popular

585
00:24:54,380 --> 00:25:01,430
imaginary okay so so so anyway that's

586
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:03,380
the difficulty the NCS okay if they're

587
00:25:01,430 --> 00:25:05,870
having a difficulty about how to sync

588
00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:08,390
the future in life or how they've lived

589
00:25:05,870 --> 00:25:11,540
yeah I mean I don't know how to break

590
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:13,870
from the past yes is to do with the way

591
00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:16,490
in which neoliberalism is come believes

592
00:25:13,870 --> 00:25:19,240
returning with a vengeance I talk of

593
00:25:16,490 --> 00:25:21,560
neoliberalism as the revenge to

594
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,600
independence movement mhm

595
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,820
you becoming independent we're gonna

596
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,290
come back and go to you yes okay well

597
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:28,850
thank you so much for coming on the

598
00:25:27,290 --> 00:25:31,160
Sputnik and enlightening us about the

599
00:25:28,850 --> 00:25:32,570
current situation in South Africa thank

600
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,040
you for having with you my pleasure

601
00:25:32,570 --> 00:25:36,110
well unfortunately that's all we've got

602
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,790
time for on the Sputnik this week I've

603
00:25:36,110 --> 00:25:40,180
been your Clarke standing in for Georgia

604
00:25:37,790 --> 00:25:43,810
and gantry and it's George would say

605
00:25:40,180 --> 00:25:43,810
it's been marvelous

606
00:25:48,250 --> 00:25:53,030
[Music]

607
00:25:50,970 --> 00:25:53,030
you

608
00:25:54,730 --> 00:25:57,769
[Music]