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welcome to Sputnik over in the world
with me George Bush I've given up
interfering in other people's countries
and looking for non-existent WMDs and
decided to try my hand at presenting
Sputnik instead oh no no you don't
George I'm you're Clark I am presenting
Sputnik for Georgian country now they've
got an awful lot of coffee in Brazil but
they're also got an awful lot of
political and economic turmoil - nearly
a year after assuming his presidency
Michel temer is overseeing the country's
worst recession people are taking to the
streets and the anti-corruption
investigation operation car wash quits
seat Emma himself impeached just like
his predecessor Dilma Rouseff well the
country wake up and smell the coffee and
can they recapture the optimism of just
a few years ago joining us this week
help us find out is the analyst Victor
Fraga picked a very warm welcome on to
the Sputnik thank you very much going on
so let's talk about operation car wash
this giant anti-corruption probe that's
been going on now for how many years two
or three years yeah but really it's been
going on for about three years
initially it look excellent people
thoughts this is a huge corruption
scandal you are unveiling a lot of
wrongdoing and ending oil giants but
then slowly people began to realize that
the objective operation car wash wasn't
true to destroy corruption but to
destroy a single political party the
Brazilian Workers Party okay proof of
that is not a single politician from the
PSD BD the neoliberal party of Brazil
has ever been someone to given to give a
statement that let alone being
prosecuted while people from the Workers
Party have been consistently persecuted
Dilma was ousted not because of
operation car wash the duty
an accounting technicality called fiscal
perfectly so moving a budget from one
from one area to the next something very
common every single every single
president in office since the
dictatorship had done it so operation
carwash plus the coup d'etat which we
saw last year where instruments in under
fight against the Workers Party the
demonization of the Workers Party so
that they could be removed from
presidency and that the PSD be with the
party in power right now which is
technically a center party official term
as party but then they have implemented
a very very aggressive neoliberal agenda
the Guardian label that the most extreme
the harshest neoliberal package in the
world lots of cuts and spending hasn't
announced yet and the pension age is
being free isn't it yet should occur
fourteen forty nine years of work and
public spend in health scaling education
has been frozen for twenty years I can't
think of years for 20 years for twenty
years so they have amended the
Constitution to implement these extreme
changes as extremely violent changes
they would not be able to do that under
the Workers Party because it's being a
select wing party which has implemented
a lot of social programs has lifted
forty million people out of poverty so
all of the sudden you had operational
carwash be a risk coup d'etat with a
thin veneer of an impeachment work the
Brazilian Constitution does allow for an
impeachment but it's for a high crime or
a misdemeanor not an accounting
technicality even Michel temer himself
has recognized the dome has been ousted
not because she's corrupt but because
she failed to embrace what he calls
bridge to the future it's his extremely
liberal program I would call it bridge
or the 19th century bridge branches
slavery but he said he said himself
she's not corrupt
she has been asked them because she
failure to embrace the bridge for the
future so this and it's she's she's
really talk about a coup here on the
echoing political party a destroyer
in political party Raziel wasn't the
more outraged about this internationally
well I saw pro-democracy forces in the
West we haven't heard too much about you
have way yeah the media the
international media has been very quiet
and reserved about it they've they've
mistaken Glee reporter DOMA has was
ousted on corruption charges and that
that's extremely dangerous because what
we're seeing now there are a lot of
things surfacing is you know is that the
the defeated candidate has been under
audio has been leaked of him bribing
someone from a company for 2 million for
2 million highs above half a million
pounds and threatening to kill the
person if he did the plea bargaining and
reported him that that's in an audio so
and people are stopping to believe the
political establishment and there's
there's very dangerous rhetoric everyone
in politics is corrupt no not everyone
in politics is corrupt so that what's
really behind this is is it a case of
the Brazilian financial elites the rich
glasses in Brazil the establishment
trying to sabotage the workers parties
at what's really well relations of this
well it's that so the old elites have
lost a lot of the privileges so I have
literally heard people complaining I
used to have three maids now they're
going to university I can't have I can't
hire a maid anymore
I have literally heard people say that
more than once here in different
contexts so the old elites have have
seen the some of their benefits slash I
swear needless to say mercy still have
huge social gaps Brazil was the 13th
economy when a when Lula when Lula took
power in 2002 by the time Dilma was
ousted Brazil was the six world economy
ahead of the UK forty million people had
been lifted out of poverty and Brazil
had paid off his external debt with the
IMF in its entirety and was beginning
she set up a bank with the BRICS well
the US I used to sing other countries in
their back yards not doing a lot of
noise and once they do a little bit of
noise the
get let's get these noisy people out
let's let's stage a coup
so the us have been deeply involved in
in everything to happen in Brazil I'll
give you just some pieces of evidence
the American ambassador Lea and I out
during the coup she was also the
ambassador in Honduras and in Paraguay
precisely at the time of the coup
so she's the coup experts no question
about that the judge says your model who
had the anti Workers Party carwash
investigations he has he has links to
the CIA it has been revealed through
documenting WikiLeaks the protests on
the streets the pseudo student movements
which asked for the image to be asked
that have been financed by by lobbies
said the Koch Industries and this is no
secrets if you go to the coffee industry
the oil refinery in Texas you will see
pictures of the the leader of movement
ago MBL King category he so these are no
student movements these are movements
financed by very very reactionary
organizations in the US and most
important of all the day after the vote
of the coup and the lower house of
parliament in Congress in Brazil one of
the leading figures of the neoliberal
party are Louisiana's travel to the u.s.
to meet with Thomas Shannon who is the
most senior person in Latin American
affairs under Obama who reports directly
to Obama so what what we're seeing
really is a counter hegemonic movement
the u.s. getting involved joka dicing
destroying democracy in Brazil with with
a view to undermine your ought only the
BRICS but oil in Brazil it has been said
that the u.s. spent trillions of dollars
to claim the oil in Iraq in Brazil they
only had to lobby a few MPs so what's
happening now literally overnight the
illegitimate coup mongering government
destroyed and privatized they'd be oil
production in Brazil we haven't reached
the oil yet the oil is very deep down in
the Atlantic
presort because there's a layer of salt
at the bottom of the atlantic and you
have to go beyond that so it takes many
years and the oil has just been being
discovered but there's there's money
which was going to go to health care and
education and the dilma is now being
sold to true international organizations
the first company issue to grab a piece
of the cake was a was a Norwegian
company but a lot more are going to
follow and the oil industry in Brazil is
going to be largely privatized it's a
message they're trying to send out don't
get don't get a metalworker
but such as Lula to run your country we
go we're gonna we're going to get there
and get get rid of him now they're
trying to shoot let's talk about those a
yes but be an absolutely head in the
polls and he's the most popular
candidate to the next presidential
elections so what's happened now is
there was the audio leak from is univers
him basically saying I won two million
and and the plea-bargaining guy yeah be
shot
we should make kill him if he doesn't if
he doesn't follow our instructions or
something to that interest another
senator was caught saying a as you know
his best friend was caught saying just
this week I don't do anything wrong all
I do is traffic drugs so that's how bad
it is in Brazil you have hard proof
evidence you have a video or someone
handing a suitcase of is your nervous
cousin handing a suitcase full of money
for the bribe as well what how cada can
be evidence can collect the hologram
yeah that's the only that's the only
harder piece of evidence I can possibly
conceive and yet they're not taking any
action against that and against the
Workers Party against Lula they have
been searching for a crime searching for
a reason to prosecute Lula and a very
important phrase that a judge has coined
in Brazil who is also a ballon yours his
name he's involved in the car wash
investigations he he said we have no
proof against Luna but we have
conviction that he's guilty
so we are seeing law fair so Lula is not
being prosecuted he's been persecuted
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you might be familiar with Geoffrey
Robertson who is Lucy Australia
Australian British human rights lawyer
who is lawyer he says the problem with
Brazil is the justice system in Brazil
is the studio of the European system so
it's an old-fashioned European system
which no longer applies in Europe where
the same person collects the evidence
judges and sentences you so there's a
judge as your model he collects the
proof at his convenience at his leisure
he judges and he sentences Lulla judge
jury and executioner where he works and
yeah and this plea bargaining which was
actually introduced by Dilma with the
best of intention but plea bargaining
has become equivalent to torture in the
sense that the be person being accused
you will say anything that they wished
you hear in order in order to reduce the
sentence so yeah yeah let's go to you
yeah you want you're here Lula's guilty
I'll tell you Lula is guilty and despite
that there's no no there's no evidence
yet and there will not be any evidence
that Lula is involved in in any
corruption scandal so on the other hand
what's happening in Brazil is so serious
with the accusations against as you
nervous because people no longer believe
in the political establishment and even
the right-wing people who argued oh we
got rid of the Workers Party because
they're corrupt and now that they see
that the neoliberal party is far more
corrupt far more crooks they are simply
arguing everyone is the same they're all
corrupt and such rhetoric is extremely
dangerous because if you demoralize an
entire political establishment you could
open the back door to a military coup
d'etat or chancing far more dangerous so
there's a big question mark hanging
above Brazil right now well thank you
very much Victor McKellar on the sputnik
and shedding some light on the current
political situation in Brazil and we do
need some lights and gave urgency don't
go away because we'll be discussing
political unrest in another BRICS
country find out which one after the
break
welcome back to Sputnik with me Neil
Clark standing in for my good friends
George and Gary another BRICS country
facing a neoliberal backlash in South
Africa thousands have been marching
against President Jacob Zuma who's been
hit by a series of corruption scandals
activists of the governing ANC however
have accused the opposition democratic
alliance who this week late reason and
corruption charges against Zuma of being
run by wealthy whites and big business
CEOs George Erie is an our list and
expert on the region George a very warm
welcome on board the Sputnik thanks are
coming on you have been to South Africa
I think was five or six times in the
last few months haven't you and didn't
pick up from the streets about what's
really going on there Oh South African
areas you know in a in a in a in a
moment of in a crossroad the moment that
what I call the conjuncture and went
back on juncture I mean the moment is
all processes cohere into how something
is going on and so however you can feel
the pulse of people being angry on the
street okay and they are angry and so
what we practice the articulation of
that anger comes in the guise of you
know jobs comes a question of students
about curriculum questions about student
grounds because it about violence on the
street and so there's a hope that the
level of disquiet in the in the country
it what it has in God it hasn't kind of
weird into a coherent narrative in which
people can buy into so there's disquiet
or one end and the kind of end a sort of
dispersal of opinion all over the place
and what does does it makes it difficult
to see somebody displacing the ANC right
in that sense because where are they
Democratic Alliance I mean it would it
refer to call them I mean we've had the
obvious said about the a ANC activists
have said that these is basically a
party financed by rich whites and
business CEOs they haven't probably got
the job though have a lot majority
support I mean I mean they are the main
opposition party aren't they but there
was also opposition within the ANC
causes will include in the ANC
take the da for first I mean it maybe
all those things when and where area but
actually born with the DA is that they
really have overlays even now are unable
to often South Africans acquire and
alternative right so they simply are a
kind of anti Jacob Zuma or aunty
somebody else but they haven't got
something that is coherent that oppose
apartheid South Africa or even the
region can buy into they don't they
cannot deliver in the main opposition's
ever could become from the ANC itself
and then I well if it could do but I
would like to kind of like with
qualification I think the challenge for
self July for the ANC is how it could is
about how it can sink a future without
being in control right it is no longer
in control of events or you know it is
not in control in that way it is still
there but it doesn't have a language of
articulation that is if you like touches
the popular is probably did before and
one can explain that in a number of ways
part of it is to do with if you go back
to code esse well the moment in which
they live is a subtle compromise between
capital and yes and and and aunty
apartheid you know liberation struggle
zone
this is really a compromise and part of
the problem without compromise it left
the question of social injustice if I
here untouched and what happens in that
moment the truth and reconciliation
committee come ring and turns
everybody's focus towards individuals
and it was the problem of the corrupt
police officer or the corrupt judge or
whatever might be they have not desist
on the system Sophia so a lot of energy
diverted people's attention to the
economic away from the economic now that
is what is returned with a vengeance
well I read George that incredible
twenty odd years since the end of
apartheid but 90% of the Wellness of
Africa is still owned by ten percent of
the people and these are mainly
why because that's precisely where
that's what I'm getting it I got what is
letter has read they melanoma can guess
we might want to say something different
you might not want to ask if you go to
the central canons of the freedom chakra
I'm question about about land about the
economic about all those issues to do
with what I call social justices they
are left untouched it is a compromise in
order to end apartheid and that is they
to end racial room in that way
okay legal racial they have it remain
they are a bit in the everyday element
the economic is still very much
controlled in the same way okay
there are a few black folk here and
there who just wanna just you know what
I call The Cosby Show Brigade it kind of
the currently kind of like what do you
have is a sort of black capitalism
anything yeah you know Gupta's on one
end
yeah and Ramaphosa is no different and
open i'm or another a different faces of
the same thing okay
and without facing this same thing
without asking what decolonizing that
economic in south africa is on a
precipice and not the challenge for the
entry right it can't and and we end it
it's not because that mallamma EF f is
the answer
the issue is the EFS speaks to that
condition yes obviously speak to the
question so some of it is to do with the
land you know unlike Maori in South
Africa in South Africa there used to
cook the guitar the cities to write the
people who build the cities of London
call them the wretched of the earth you
know the long day will be the ones who
say we want John is dead too so you
can't even if you start with
distributing the land is getting
important it will get to these other
sides of occupant three okay and at end
and as more people store these processes
of social injustice the more violent if
you like it's likely to be and the
difficult for South Africa is to think
with that background of anger that
disgustin you can touch it as you kind
of like as you can move around whether
it's on the sidewalk whether it's in the
bars we need to do with the violence
towards women with a all these kinds of
violence to become a kind of index of
dim quiet in enjoyment so you're saying
that the problems today really do stem
from the compromises that were made 20
odd years ago that's why I'm not dealing
with the economic reform that's really
not changing with economic ownership
that's not industrial and that's right
so is there a hope or chance that Zuma
may actually start to tackle these
things now the ANC in order to lose its
popularity well I don't now a part that
is gone 20 years ago we can then move on
economics I don't I don't frame it that
way but you know where the super can do
it that is no excuse
uncle this is part of the story I don't
say it that way okay I think the whole
class of both the political class and
the intellectual class know there's a
struggle of ideas about how to think a
future in which people can live together
what does it mean you know on one hand
was the promise of building and
non-racial societal africa nothing was
in front of building and machination a
non-racial world wonderful stuff in it
it hasn't been achieved not quite a
business not over there is wonderful
marker yes the economic you know what we
didn't do was look at the way in which
that touches the economic and at the
same time think about what what what an
economic is for easily accountants
making sure the books are in order or is
it about serious economic liberation so
that people can in fresh water all the
Munter about you know about service
delivery which Finance means of another
importance it might be sometimes a red
herring
unless one goes back to the central
questions of social injustice left over
from the compromise that cabeça
South Africa is in search of the waters
so how do we see this panning out George
how do you see the future for Zoomer
particularly and for the ANC they are
still on course aren't they to win next
year's elections according to polls um I
think I think what they will win because
there's no querent all done with you mmm
right that's the
they win it won't win because they they
are interlocked intellectually of the
right path right so you know there are
squabbles in the house yes like the
squabbles in the house aren't going to
disrupt them being maintaining even a
reduced majority of course it is you
know can never tell how things are when
is no techniques were granted it just
I'm saying that in the absence of a
coherent alternative okay that
challenges the a and three in a hegemony
sense they will win now what does that
mean they problem for the DA sort of
thinks himself in clothes of the past it
hugs from some golden moment not only
interesting nothing I know don't rat
amazing Jonas Bergen March in our city
in this uber car driving driven one
person and I'm talking with serving
driver what it's also well you can was
demonstrating can imagine think of it
before the demonstration are these kind
of white liberal kids and they don't
even know how to blow it with a sailor
and then face something about the kind
of nature of of protest it's not saying
like folk are not involved in it but it
is a kind of it is a descent of the
well-off it's not a descent of we have
not right together and what suma does is
to capitalize on that
really yeah always true is to go and
evoke those images over yesterday and
it'll get him through right right so and
the other thing is the only people who
can remove soma is the NC itself
recalling him Riley noting the business
will be valid warrant for the Nelson
Mandela Foundation just reading this
weekly of school for him beer that
counts so there is some isn't that
within the NGO order the news remember
like is normally NC it's not anything
like we mustn't even allusion to King
the Nelson Mandela Foundation or any
foundation without matter everybody is
foundation is our hero you might just
ask yourself who praised deserve
analogies on this is a portrait they do
not function but they are not invincible
you know that means they can they can
occupy the news media daily you know
they are celebrities of a liberal moment
but there's no
the one who delivered him felt like the
result there not one who devotes then
not the ones who influenced the popular
imaginary okay so so so anyway that's
the difficulty the NCS okay if they're
having a difficulty about how to sync
the future in life or how they've lived
yeah I mean I don't know how to break
from the past yes is to do with the way
in which neoliberalism is come believes
returning with a vengeance I talk of
neoliberalism as the revenge to
independence movement mhm
you becoming independent we're gonna
come back and go to you yes okay well
thank you so much for coming on the
Sputnik and enlightening us about the
current situation in South Africa thank
you for having with you my pleasure
well unfortunately that's all we've got
time for on the Sputnik this week I've
been your Clarke standing in for Georgia
and gantry and it's George would say
it's been marvelous
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you
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