1 00:00:00,580 --> 00:00:04,620 [Music] 2 00:00:10,679 --> 00:00:16,280 Okay, thank you. I need some 3 00:00:27,990 --> 00:00:31,050 [Music] 4 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,719 Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 5 00:00:36,399 --> 00:00:40,239 with me Kim 6 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:43,600 Jong-un. I have had long ambition to 7 00:00:40,239 --> 00:00:45,280 present Sputnik to go into outer space 8 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,719 and have cheese sandwich with good 9 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:50,399 friend Donald 10 00:00:47,719 --> 00:00:53,120 Trump. Oh no you don't Kim. You've 11 00:00:50,399 --> 00:00:54,879 already got a career in Korea. I'm Neil 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,920 Clark and I am presenting Sputnik for 13 00:00:54,879 --> 00:00:59,520 George Galloway and Gatry. Morocco has 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,840 long prided itself on being one of the 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,440 most stable countries in North Africa, a 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,159 place where the so-called Arab Spring 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,439 didn't turn into an Arab winter. But 18 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:09,119 since October, there's been a big 19 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:11,439 increase in tensions as anti-government 20 00:01:09,119 --> 00:01:12,880 protests have swept the country. The 21 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:14,799 authorities have responded with a carrot 22 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,119 and stick approach. As in the film 23 00:01:14,799 --> 00:01:18,400 Casablanca, the usual suspects, 24 00:01:17,119 --> 00:01:20,479 including the leader of the protest 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,200 movement and many others too, have been 26 00:01:20,479 --> 00:01:24,640 arrested. But at King Muhammad's behest, 27 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,240 there's also been promises by the 28 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,200 government to increase infrastructure 29 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,880 spending and improve the economy. Will 30 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,280 the concessions be enough to quell the 31 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,840 discontent? Or is Morocco heading for a 32 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,600 genuine people's revolution? Joining me 33 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:41,040 now to discuss the events there is the 34 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:43,280 analyst, Dr. Riyaz Kareem. Dr. Kareem, 35 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,799 very warm welcome on board the Sputnik. 36 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,200 Thank you. So, can you give us the 37 00:01:44,799 --> 00:01:48,640 background to these uh disturbances, 38 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,560 these protests in Morocco? But when did 39 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,880 they actually uh really start in 40 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:56,640 earnest? Well, in earnest really they 41 00:01:52,880 --> 00:02:01,040 started in 1958. Okay. Uh when King the 42 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:03,360 late King Hassan II was uh in power. 43 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Um a similar happen a similar thing 44 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:10,800 happened in the Riff uh mountains u with 45 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:13,200 with the same people. Okay. Um and his 46 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,520 way of dealing it was he sent thousands 47 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:18,560 of 48 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:22,080 troops to um to go and quail the 49 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:25,840 uprising at that at that time. Uh and 50 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:28,319 their demand was the very same then as 51 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,920 it is now. It it is you know it is 52 00:02:28,319 --> 00:02:33,680 because the the the region is under 53 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:36,319 represented 54 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,480 and um they didn't and under the in the 55 00:02:36,319 --> 00:02:40,560 north of Morocco. Yeah. The rift. Yeah. 56 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,560 the ref region. um they were 57 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:44,160 underrepresented in Rabbat in the 58 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:47,920 government and they're underdeveloped 59 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:52,640 ever since right and um you know at that 60 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:57,040 time it was quelled but then again um 61 00:02:52,640 --> 00:03:02,000 you know as um Mosin Fickery the um the 62 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:04,480 fisherman right um he was basically just 63 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,319 selling swordfish which happened to be 64 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:09,040 out of season 65 00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:11,040 and what they did was the police came in 66 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:14,400 harassed him, took his fish away and 67 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:16,879 threw it in the garbage truck. Um, and 68 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:19,360 it was his only way of livelihood. So, 69 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:21,200 what he did was he actually jumped into 70 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:24,159 the garbage truck to go retrieve the 71 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:26,000 fish. Okay. And as he did that, one of 72 00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:28,640 the drivers actually pressed the switch 73 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,519 on the compactor and he was killed and 74 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:34,239 he was crushed and killed. Right. And 75 00:03:31,519 --> 00:03:38,319 that is that is very uh similar to what 76 00:03:34,239 --> 00:03:40,560 happened to um Muhammad Buazizi in 77 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:43,480 Tunisia. Exactly. Yeah. Which which 78 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:47,480 actually uh started the Arab Springs in 79 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:50,879 2011. Um and this was the cause of this 80 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:53,120 uprising. Um and and now it is it is 81 00:03:50,879 --> 00:03:55,120 getting to a point where the government 82 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,599 actually literally has to pay attention 83 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:00,159 to uh to the refuge. It has spread all 84 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:02,799 over the country. Yeah. And now there 85 00:04:00,159 --> 00:04:05,920 protest. Yeah, it is there protests in 86 00:04:02,799 --> 00:04:10,000 in Rabbat, in Casablanca, 87 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:13,760 um I believe in Tangers and in NORD 88 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:17,759 already. Um and there is a heavy police 89 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:21,519 presence as well. Uh the guy who 90 00:04:17,759 --> 00:04:24,960 actually started this um his name is 91 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:29,440 Naser Zev Zafi. Zez Zafi is a 39year-old 92 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:33,600 out of work guy, not very educated. Um 93 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:36,320 and um he you know he sort of became the 94 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:39,360 de facto leader of the protest of the 95 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:41,680 protest movement which is called Al-Hiak 96 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:45,040 I believe 97 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:48,320 uh and uh they were trying to find a way 98 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:51,759 to arrest him but he was on the run and 99 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:54,560 then he went into a mosque where um you 100 00:04:51,759 --> 00:04:57,520 know where one of the um um preachers 101 00:04:54,560 --> 00:05:00,160 was preaching and he went directly onto 102 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:05,600 the microphone phone and said, um, was 103 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:11,280 this mosque made uh for for praying or 104 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:14,000 or for um for uh the leadersh? Mhm. 105 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:17,680 And uh that gave him a cause and 106 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:20,240 basically he was um he was arrested uh 107 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,600 for impeding the freedom of religion. 108 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,639 Okay. And he's still in jail today, is 109 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,960 he? Yes, he's in jail and and about 70 110 00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:28,720 of his followers are still in jail. 111 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:32,000 Though the media in Morocco reports 112 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,680 about 24, okay, but then the media in 113 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,400 Morocco is heavily controlled by the 114 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,320 government. So, you know that you have 115 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,600 to take that into account. Now, at the 116 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,440 King's Behest, I know that the 117 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,560 government has offered the carrot, 118 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,880 hasn't it? It said that there's going to 119 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,120 be pumping millions of deer arms into 120 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:51,680 infrastructure projects. Yes. In the 121 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:53,440 north and economic uh reform. Uh, is 122 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,680 that likely to happen? Is that is that 123 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,840 just sort of uh Well, you know, King 124 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,240 Muhammad, yeah, King Muhammad V 6th is 125 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:02,800 is 126 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,400 actually a very progressive guy. You 127 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,880 know, I wouldn't say he's a bad guy 128 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,120 because he's, you know, when when you go 129 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,919 to Morocco, you will see what he's done 130 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,240 to that country. But at the same time, 131 00:06:11,919 --> 00:06:16,720 politics is politics. You know, there is 132 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:20,080 there's no two ways about it. 133 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:22,160 Um he is not going to repeat what his 134 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,240 father did. 135 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,240 Not send the troops in. Yes. Send the 136 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,160 troops in because he sent a very high 137 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:32,160 power delegation with a lot of ministers 138 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,919 to go into the area and sit down uh with 139 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,400 these people with a couple of parties 140 00:06:33,919 --> 00:06:38,240 over there and they issued a joint 141 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,240 statement saying that you know the 142 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,520 government is going to look after their 143 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:46,240 needs now. Uh but it is a question of 144 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,960 too little too late. is people have been 145 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,800 have been protesting since years now and 146 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,280 nothing has happened. Uh there's a lot 147 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,880 of lip service going on that there's 148 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:56,240 going to be you know you're going to 149 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,759 have this development, you're going to 150 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,720 have that development, people are going 151 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:02,560 to have jobs. Um you know and these guys 152 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,120 are just protesting about their freedom 153 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:07,680 and social justice and dignity. All 154 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,319 that's all they want it is. So it is not 155 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:12,560 a revolution per se, 156 00:07:10,319 --> 00:07:14,240 right? So no one's calling for the king 157 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,560 to step down or anything like that. 158 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,400 Exactly. They just they you know they 159 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,960 have very simple demands. Treat us like 160 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,240 you treat everybody else. And there is a 161 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,560 divide in Morocco, isn't there? Between 162 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,919 the big cities like Rabbat and the areas 163 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,520 in the north that haven't had the 164 00:07:25,919 --> 00:07:29,599 economic progress that perhaps other 165 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,199 regions have. Yeah. Yeah, there is. And 166 00:07:29,599 --> 00:07:33,599 especially especially when you talk 167 00:07:31,199 --> 00:07:37,280 about the uh the Berber people, right? 168 00:07:33,599 --> 00:07:40,319 Uh the Berber people are um you know the 169 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:42,120 the word Berber first comes from from 170 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:45,039 the Roman word 171 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,960 barbarian. So they are they are known 172 00:07:45,039 --> 00:07:50,560 fighters 173 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:54,160 you know and u when Morocco was fighting 174 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:56,800 for its independence from France uh the 175 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,800 elite were were too busy smoozing the 176 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,120 French while the Berber were actually 177 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,440 fighting for independence. So they have 178 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,280 a stake in the country. 179 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:09,919 You know, and that is the reason why 180 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:12,319 when um Ze Zafi was was arrested. Yeah. 181 00:08:09,919 --> 00:08:14,479 And um 70 of his followers were 182 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:16,960 arrested, 600 lawyers came out and 183 00:08:14,479 --> 00:08:18,560 registered to provide free services and 184 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,599 defend them in courts. Wow. That's quite 185 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:24,400 impressive. Yeah. Um and so, you know, 186 00:08:21,599 --> 00:08:28,400 and and the government has actually 187 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:31,759 asked Zeafi to sit on a table with them. 188 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:34,000 Okay. um and and try to, you know, try 189 00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:36,240 to sort this situation out. But he he 190 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,000 still refuses. Well, the Arab Spring did 191 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,599 hit Morocco, didn't it? In 2011, we had 192 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,800 the February the 20th movement, but it 193 00:08:39,599 --> 00:08:43,680 went in a different direction, didn't 194 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,440 it, from elsewhere. Yeah, Morocco has 195 00:08:43,680 --> 00:08:48,399 been very progressive that way. That's 196 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:51,760 why I said, you know, this king is is is 197 00:08:48,399 --> 00:08:54,640 a very smart chap. He is. And um you 198 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:57,600 know, he controlled that so it actually 199 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:59,920 didn't he concede quite a few reforms. 200 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,000 Yes, he did. Yes, he did. And and this 201 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:05,600 is the reason why Morocco is where it is 202 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:08,880 right now because he because he's open 203 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:10,560 to ideas. He's he's progressive. So, you 204 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,160 know, when he says he's going to do 205 00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:15,200 something, 206 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:17,920 um, he probably will do it. But the 207 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:21,279 problem is that the government in Rabbat 208 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:25,040 is so far away from these areas 209 00:09:21,279 --> 00:09:27,360 that, um, you know, once it is, it is 210 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:30,000 kind of like out of sight, out of mind. 211 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,720 Yeah. Unless unless you know, reminders 212 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:35,279 like this happen 213 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,920 to to let the government robot know 214 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:40,399 that, okay, we're still here. 215 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,320 And we haven't gotten anything as yet as 216 00:09:40,399 --> 00:09:44,320 you promised. Devolution perhaps could 217 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,080 could be a solution couldn't evolving 218 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,399 powers to the north. Yeah, it could 219 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:51,839 economic it could and and and in some 220 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:53,360 sorts it is there. The problem is see 221 00:09:51,839 --> 00:09:57,440 the problem one of the biggest problems 222 00:09:53,360 --> 00:10:00,720 with with um Arabic countries is the 223 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,640 power that the police yield. 224 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,519 They have way too much power in their 225 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:08,480 hands. uh for example if you take if you 226 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:10,959 take u you know the the example of Saudi 227 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,360 Arabia they have the Sharia police you 228 00:10:10,959 --> 00:10:15,680 know those people are allowed to do a 229 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,600 anything and everything 230 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:20,880 you know including taking people and 231 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:23,839 just throwing them on the road 232 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,920 um and and um you know the police in in 233 00:10:23,839 --> 00:10:29,040 the Rift region are doing exactly the 234 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:31,519 same okay they um there was a protest 235 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:35,880 which was actually started by Ze Zafi's 236 00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:39,040 mother and a A lot of women went to this 237 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:41,440 protest and the police actually made a 238 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:45,120 wall around them. Okay. And did not let 239 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:47,040 Zafi's mother come into the protest 240 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,360 at all. 241 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,959 And so the police have a lot of powers. 242 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,160 Are they a law unto themselves? I mean, 243 00:10:50,959 --> 00:10:53,600 is it the government telling them to do 244 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,200 this, do you think, or is it just the 245 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,600 No, no, it is it is the government 246 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,680 telling them to do this. They can't do 247 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,480 that on their own. I I think it is the 248 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:05,279 government telling them what to do. M u 249 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:07,279 because now they have him, it's going to 250 00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:09,440 be tough for them to release him even 251 00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:12,720 though they're talking about concessions 252 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,959 and and reforms and everything, but you 253 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,560 know, politics is politics. There's So, 254 00:11:14,959 --> 00:11:18,000 how will this pan out? Do you think just 255 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:20,240 briefly at the do you think that this 256 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,240 will have a generally peaceful solution 257 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,000 as before in Morocco or do you think 258 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,640 there is a danger that it could escalate 259 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,519 and if the concessions aren't made and 260 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,959 aren't carried out? I think I think 261 00:11:29,519 --> 00:11:34,399 there is going to be a peaceful 262 00:11:30,959 --> 00:11:36,399 resolution to this. But the downside of 263 00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:38,720 it is that there's a couple of parties 264 00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:40,560 over there in the riff region who have 265 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,760 sided with the government already and 266 00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:45,360 have issued a joint communicate about 267 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,720 sitting down with the government and the 268 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,600 government offering all these 269 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:52,399 concessions to them. But that's nothing 270 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:56,320 to do with al-Hak. 271 00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:58,399 Now these parties in absence of ze zafi 272 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,440 these parties are the ones that are 273 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:03,600 going to benefit 274 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,680 you know they will they will go on with 275 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,440 the government and then they will try to 276 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:08,800 quell this situation and say the 277 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,959 government is doing this the government 278 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:17,279 is doing this we're looking after you 279 00:12:10,959 --> 00:12:19,760 and it will die down but not permanently 280 00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:22,160 because there's always another zeafi in 281 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,920 the in in the wings somewhere All right. 282 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,440 Going to come out and do it again. Well, 283 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,880 Dr. Rabine, thank you so much for 284 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,399 shedding some light on the events in 285 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,639 Morocco for us on the spot. Nick, you're 286 00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:32,399 welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much. 287 00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:34,160 Don't go away because after the break, 288 00:12:32,399 --> 00:12:37,720 we'll be lifting the lid on who really 289 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,720 rules the world. 290 00:12:38,390 --> 00:12:42,800 [Music] 291 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,320 Welcome back to Sportnick with me, Neil 292 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,720 Clark, standing in for my good friends 293 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:49,279 George and Gatry. We live in a world 294 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,920 where just eight people, yes, eight 295 00:12:49,279 --> 00:12:54,240 people own half the world's wealth. A 296 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,920 free market accident. Well, according to 297 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,240 the former Financial Times journalist 298 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,680 turned rogue reporter Matt Kennard, it's 299 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:04,160 all by design. Matt, very warm welcome 300 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:06,560 on board the Sputnik. Thanks for having 301 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:09,040 me. Your book, The Racket, is absolutely 302 00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:12,160 brilliant, absolutely sensational. You 303 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:14,720 basically uh reveal, don't you, how how 304 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,720 the world works. Well, I tried to. I 305 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,440 mean, I was I was at the Financial Times 306 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,200 for two and a half years. Um, and went 307 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,360 there after studying in the United 308 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,360 States. My CV was good. I mean, that's 309 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,040 how I got into the Financial Times. But 310 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,760 I always had a critical mind when I went 311 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,800 there. So, I used my time there pretty 312 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:35,519 consciously to uncover uh and ask 313 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,959 questions uh uh about issues that most 314 00:13:35,519 --> 00:13:38,160 people at the Financial Times just don't 315 00:13:36,959 --> 00:13:41,440 ask because they don't think these 316 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:44,560 things. So, um I traveled the world. uh 317 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:47,600 I spoke to people uh across Latin 318 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:50,240 America, Africa, Asia and really started 319 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,519 to understand just who really has the 320 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,279 power in our world and it's not the 321 00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:55,920 politicians on our screens really. Most 322 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:57,839 of them are puppets for another force 323 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:00,639 which is finance capital. Yeah. And 324 00:13:57,839 --> 00:14:02,240 these are the racketeers phrase. Yeah. 325 00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:04,320 Yeah. No, I was going to say and it 326 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,519 basically does run like a mafia. you 327 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,600 have um a whole system set up which is 328 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:13,440 development banks, the IMF, the World 329 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:15,760 Bank, um uh obviously hedge funds, uh 330 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,240 banks that loan to different uh to 331 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:21,440 different businesses and and people and 332 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:24,240 all the all these people have uh 333 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,160 construct ideology to legitimate what 334 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,519 they do to the world. So, so most people 335 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,760 don't understand how the world really 336 00:14:27,519 --> 00:14:31,760 works because all they're fed all this 337 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,920 nonsense, this ideology about how it's 338 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,600 how free market capitalism is all to 339 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:39,120 alleviate poverty. If you read the World 340 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:41,440 Bank's uh literature, their fundamental 341 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,360 goal is to alleviate poverty, which is 342 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,519 hilarious really because they are the 343 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,680 main agents of stopping that happening. 344 00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:49,600 And what is really interesting to look 345 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,959 at the how the world works is really 346 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,160 what happens when there's a fly in the 347 00:14:50,959 --> 00:14:53,920 ointment. And that's what I really 348 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,000 looked at in the book. Uh I looked 349 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,839 extensively at Bolivia. Yeah. Where 350 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:02,079 there was the rise of Eva Morales in 351 00:14:57,839 --> 00:15:04,639 2005 who is this former Koka picker who 352 00:15:02,079 --> 00:15:06,480 was a trade unionist and rose and became 353 00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:07,839 the first indigenous president in in the 354 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,399 country's history and in Latin America's 355 00:15:07,839 --> 00:15:12,480 history and he really was came under 356 00:15:10,399 --> 00:15:14,000 sustained attack from the United States 357 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,680 uh government and all the different 358 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,720 agencies that work for them. So I'm 359 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,959 talking about that. You talk about the 360 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,560 acronyms in the book 361 00:15:17,959 --> 00:15:22,800 don't Yeah. Exactly. And it is and it's 362 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,880 very hard to piece together because it 363 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:28,000 the way the system works is so beautiful 364 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,680 in a way because because there it's very 365 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,360 hard to pin them down at any particular 366 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,240 points. You have to that's why someone 367 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,920 like Morales uh found it very hard when 368 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,279 he first came in to really know where he 369 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,839 was under attack from because obviously 370 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:42,160 the CIA don't publicize their programs. 371 00:15:39,839 --> 00:15:44,160 US aid is meant is is meant to be this 372 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,000 really beneficent uh institution in this 373 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,600 country and they have tons of money. So 374 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,920 but eventually he started kicking them 375 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,240 out. So he kicked out USA, he kicked out 376 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,480 the Drug Enforcement Administration and 377 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,160 he liberated his country and that is 378 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,480 what you have to do. There's a there's a 379 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,240 famous Hugo Chavis quote where someone 380 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,839 asked him why you why are you so 381 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,199 anti-American and he said you know what 382 00:16:01,839 --> 00:16:04,959 I would love to get on well with America 383 00:16:03,199 --> 00:16:06,800 but if you want to do what I want to do 384 00:16:04,959 --> 00:16:08,720 you can't get on with America because 385 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,639 you step on the toes of the empire and 386 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,480 the empire knows where its interests are 387 00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:13,920 and knows people who are not going to 388 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,440 help them enforce it. People like 389 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,279 Chavez, people like Morales, people like 390 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,279 Corbyn. I mean it's happening across the 391 00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:20,880 world that this system has run well 392 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:23,680 enough for a time in the neoliberal 393 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,839 period for these people but increasingly 394 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,399 uh people are waking up and and electing 395 00:16:25,839 --> 00:16:30,160 leaders that really are challenging the 396 00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:31,839 the the fundamentals of this system. 397 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,639 Yeah. And you describe an intricate web 398 00:16:31,839 --> 00:16:36,480 don't you of control by this global 399 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:38,160 financial elite through these various 400 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,360 agencies to get their way and the 401 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,120 pressures that are put on governments 402 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,120 which Exactly. And governments the the 403 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,880 the funny thing that I I found when I 404 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,120 was doing my reporting in most countries 405 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,880 in the world governments aren't there to 406 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,720 represent the people they are meant to 407 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,040 represent. What they are there for is to 408 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,880 be mediators between financial capital 409 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,920 and corporations and the resources in 410 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,759 their country. So you have I don't Haiti 411 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,639 for example for hundreds of years was 412 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:05,039 was uh was ruled by the French and then 413 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:08,400 the United States and was basically just 414 00:17:05,039 --> 00:17:11,280 a a playground for finance capital. When 415 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:13,600 someone like Aristid came in immediately 416 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,360 he wanted to nationalize and do some he 417 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,720 wasn't even that radical but he was he 418 00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:18,000 was radical enough that the United 419 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,240 States spirited him out of the country 420 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,839 twice. So that's what happens. That's 421 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,319 how the system works. It's an intricate 422 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:28,319 web that lives below the surface and you 423 00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:30,640 hardly ever see it working in its real 424 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,320 awful way that it works because we have 425 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,720 don't have a media which which tells 426 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:37,600 people but every now and then you do you 427 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,960 do sort of it does expose itself and and 428 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,240 the role of the media I mean obviously 429 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,160 you ride in the heart of it working for 430 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,440 the FT and you put something very 431 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,600 interesting I remember saying that when 432 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,760 you talked about Hosny Mubarak and you 433 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:51,039 described him in one of your articles as 434 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,320 the USbacked dictator US back was taken 435 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:54,000 out. Yeah. Yeah. But then when you put 436 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,600 in I think it was about Hezbollah being 437 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,679 Iran backed that was kept in. So it's 438 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,120 like we're allowed to sometimes Exactly. 439 00:17:57,679 --> 00:18:00,640 say who backed Hub and not others. 440 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,840 Right. Exactly. And that's what's so 441 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,520 interesting about working within the 442 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,760 corporate media is no one's telling you 443 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:09,039 not to say that. No one's saying don't 444 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:12,240 say USbacked Hosny Barak. But because of 445 00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:13,600 you've been socialized so intensely 446 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,039 while you're there, you just don't think 447 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,640 these things. And I remember writing it. 448 00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:18,080 I had a critical mind going in so I 449 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,760 could still carry on doing it. And I 450 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,720 wasn't particularly care I didn't care 451 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,320 about the career there. But if I had I 452 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,000 wouldn't have even bothered doing that. 453 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,080 I wouldn't even thought those things. 454 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,440 So, but as soon as I I actually thought 455 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,720 that was quite funny because I try I 456 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,320 thought I might as well try. I know I'm 457 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,400 leaving. And they did take it out. They 458 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,840 take it out. Yeah. So that's a very 459 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,120 explicit way of understanding how the 460 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,880 system operates. And of course, as we're 461 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:42,000 talking about a racket, a financial 462 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:45,520 elite which basically uh steals from the 463 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,039 rest from from the poor world every day. 464 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,120 when you're talking about that, you need 465 00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:52,160 a massive ideological system on top of 466 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:54,960 it to make people not understand it and 467 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,080 to to make people ignorant of how it 468 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,240 really works because if people 469 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,360 understood then they wouldn't be able to 470 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,640 do what they get away with. They 471 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:02,000 wouldn't it just wouldn't happen. You 472 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,679 also mentioned the book you said that 473 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,679 where real democracies are the ones we 474 00:19:03,679 --> 00:19:07,679 look down at and the ones we sneer at in 475 00:19:05,679 --> 00:19:09,600 the West and that that's just because we 476 00:19:07,679 --> 00:19:12,160 have a all the narratives which are 477 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,000 driven in our society by the media are 478 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,919 elite narratives. If you look at the 479 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,320 demographics of people in the media, 480 00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:21,039 they're all private school educated, 481 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,880 white, uh went to probably the same 482 00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:24,960 schools and that has a m the millu 483 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,039 effect has a is has a massive effect. 484 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,039 People just all think the same sort of 485 00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:31,280 things. So when they see they don't 486 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:32,480 understand Bolivia, most of people would 487 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,520 would never have been there would 488 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,120 wouldn't know anything about the 489 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,480 politics. So they'll just read some 490 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,480 column in the Wall Street Journal saying 491 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,240 he's a ever Morales is a narco terrorist 492 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,679 and that's and that's it. So, but when 493 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,200 you go there and you start understanding 494 00:19:41,679 --> 00:19:45,360 that that's it's actually one of the 495 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,440 most democratic societies in the world, 496 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:48,720 then it it really flips that all around. 497 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,400 It's interesting, isn't it, that Hugo 498 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,679 Chavez was demonized as a dictator, 499 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,039 wasn't he? He always routinely called a 500 00:19:51,679 --> 00:19:55,039 dictator yet he won how many elections 501 00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:57,840 or how many referendum 13 or whatever. 502 00:19:55,039 --> 00:20:00,559 Exactly. And yet Sahar by contrast in 503 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:03,039 Indonesia who had you know genocide in 504 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:05,280 East Timor etc. Yep. Never called that 505 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:07,679 or call that. You can you can really 506 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,000 correlate how a leader is treated in the 507 00:20:07,679 --> 00:20:13,760 in the developing what's called the the 508 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:16,000 global south now by how nice they are to 509 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,360 to international capital. So the really 510 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,000 interesting case in Latin America is 511 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:22,880 Lula in Brazil who I like a lot and was 512 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,960 a trade unionist uh and did many many 513 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,679 good things in Brazil but he was not as 514 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,559 radical as Morales uh or Chavez. He 515 00:20:27,679 --> 00:20:30,480 didn't really go in for the 516 00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:32,960 nationalizations in a big way. He didn't 517 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,440 really touch the money that was already 518 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,600 accumulated in the 1% in Brazil. He just 519 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,200 sort of dispersed it a bit better. And 520 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,720 obviously the international media loved 521 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,240 him. He was like the darling of the New 522 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,960 York Times. And that and you can really 523 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,799 correlate that in in all ways. Really a 524 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:51,440 leader becomes more and more demonized 525 00:20:46,799 --> 00:20:55,039 the more they have a sort of adversarial 526 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:56,880 um uh opinion of uh financial capital. 527 00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:58,400 That's just how it works. and it squeeze 528 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,880 and then you get the whole propaganda 529 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,360 war of where I mean in Venezuela now 530 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,760 they're accusing the the Americans are 531 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:07,600 accusing close associates of Madura of 532 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,120 being narot traffickers and all this 533 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,520 stuff comes out again and again they did 534 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,520 it in Panama. I mean it's all it's all 535 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,600 the same sort of propaganda is put out 536 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,280 just to destroy anyone who lifts a 537 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,360 finger against the system running as it 538 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,640 should. And for your book, you interview 539 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,320 a wide range of people, didn't you? 540 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,919 Including Henry Kissinger. Well, I 541 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,200 didn't interview him. I was a student at 542 00:21:23,919 --> 00:21:28,559 Columbia University in New York and uh 543 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,159 in fact it's quite an interesting story 544 00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:34,559 because it really shows how how um 545 00:21:32,159 --> 00:21:35,919 dosile the elite media is now Columbia 546 00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:37,120 University New York the journalism 547 00:21:35,919 --> 00:21:39,440 school there is meant to be the best in 548 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:41,039 the world and Henry Kissinger came and 549 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,320 we had the journalism students there 550 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:44,880 asking him things like what's your 551 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,039 favorite color what do you think of the 552 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,600 human rights situation in China which is 553 00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:51,600 a fair question to someone who's not a a 554 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,280 a war criminal who's murdered millions 555 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,760 of people in in East Asia and other 556 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,200 places. So I sort of thought, well, I'm 557 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,360 not going to be happy with myself unless 558 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,880 I just sort of break up this love fest. 559 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,679 So I just said to him, how do you sleep 560 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:06,240 at night? And he said and he sort of 561 00:22:03,679 --> 00:22:08,799 everyone sort of was shocked and looked 562 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:11,039 around and he said in his funny voice, 563 00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:14,480 "How do how do you uh substantiate 564 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:16,480 that?" And I sort of went on about east. 565 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,440 Yeah, exactly. I don't have all day. 566 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:22,159 Yeah, exactly. But Eastmore, Bangladesh, 567 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,640 uh, Chile, uh, and then I sort of and 568 00:22:22,159 --> 00:22:26,000 then he just a journalism professor got 569 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,080 up and stood next to him and sort of 570 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,840 made it clear that I should shut up. So 571 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,880 anyway, that I guess we could call that 572 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,000 an interview, but it was more 573 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,440 confrontation. I mean, but uh, yeah, I 574 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,039 did the the great thing about the 575 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,880 Financial Times and what I wanted to use 576 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:40,880 it for was the access you get. The 577 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:44,080 access you get is incredible. I was in 578 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,919 Washington DC for 6 months and also in 579 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,559 New York as well and I had access to all 580 00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:50,880 the top people on Wall Street, all the 581 00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:53,039 politicians that I wanted to speak to in 582 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,200 Washington DC and it's an amazing 583 00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:56,720 resource. I'll never have it again. So I 584 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,400 cons I was very conscious that I should 585 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,840 use it to ask questions that aren't 586 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:04,000 asked usually and to really sort of uh 587 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,600 understand the system from within which 588 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,000 is very hard to do. There's many many 589 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,120 good analysts which who write about the 590 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,480 system from without and I'm going to be 591 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,520 doing that for the rest of my life now. 592 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,600 But I thought I should use this 593 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,799 opportunity while I can to to do that 594 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,320 because it is dismissed isn't it 595 00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:18,320 sometimes as a conspiracy theory when we 596 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,760 talk about you know financial elites. 597 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,280 Yeah. We have the gatekeepers come along 598 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,960 and so that's just conspiracy theories. 599 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,799 We have democracies. We have freedom and 600 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,240 this is just sort of leftwing nonsense 601 00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:28,720 isn't it? But it's a funny thing the 602 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,400 conspiracy theory thing because if when 603 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,159 when a right-wing newspaper talks about 604 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,520 a teachers union wanting better wages 605 00:23:32,159 --> 00:23:36,240 for their teachers no one calls that a 606 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,840 conspiracy theory. M and it's true 607 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,679 people get together and look look out 608 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,039 for their interests. Teachers obviously 609 00:23:39,679 --> 00:23:42,720 are looking for better wages through 610 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:44,799 their union. But if you think if you 611 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,480 start saying the 1% who own all our the 612 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:47,679 wealth of our world actually have some 613 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,799 sort of consciousness about retaining 614 00:23:47,679 --> 00:23:50,880 that wealth and increasing it then 615 00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:53,600 you're conspiracy theorist conspiracy 616 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,200 theory. They don't they apparently the 617 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,880 richest people in our society don't have 618 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,080 any sort of strategic view of how to 619 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,919 make that money uh uh increase. So I 620 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,960 think that conspiracy theories is one of 621 00:24:01,919 --> 00:24:06,559 the many many ways that uh critical 622 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,000 journalists critical minds are 623 00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:09,600 marginalized and that's another thing 624 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,640 that I learned at the FT is that there's 625 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:15,039 very very powerful ways of stopping 626 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,799 anyone with a critical mind uh climbing 627 00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:18,880 the ladder of the mainstream media. You 628 00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:20,559 just can't and I I understand you get 629 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,480 branded don't you? you get brand there's 630 00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:24,240 words like I was called a maverick and 631 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,840 all these sort of patronizing terms that 632 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:29,120 sort of make you and it's very very hard 633 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,559 to go into work for 10 20 years and feel 634 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,400 completely at odds with everyone around 635 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:35,440 you and be called those names so most 636 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,200 people just leave and I don't pressure 637 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,760 to conform is enormous isn't it huge and 638 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:43,360 that's how all power systems work they 639 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,640 work by by by creating a new generation 640 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,240 of people that are going to support the 641 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,279 same system otherwise they would 642 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,880 disintegrate very fast so you people And 643 00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:53,120 what's quite funny is people get very 644 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,520 arrogant. So people sit at top the 645 00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:56,960 mainstream media in in in the UK and 646 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,480 work for Murdoch and people like that 647 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,159 and then talk to people, I don't know, 648 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,679 people who work for RT and others and 649 00:25:00,159 --> 00:25:03,440 say, "Oh, you're you're just working for 650 00:25:01,679 --> 00:25:05,200 a state propaganda outlet." And they 651 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,559 don't think it's weird. Yeah. They don't 652 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,840 think it's weird that they work for 653 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:12,880 Australian oligarch who who has who who 654 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,400 has much more extreme politics than a 655 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,000 lot of the people on here. It's just 656 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,760 they can't see that in some ways they're 657 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,520 looking in a mirror, but for them 658 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,360 they're completely free and in a sense 659 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,960 they are free because they can say what 660 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:24,960 they like because Rupert Murdoch likes 661 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,480 what they say. So that's how the media 662 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,080 works. Absolutely. Well, Matt, thank you 663 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,799 so much for coming on the sport today. 664 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,080 All the very best to you. Thanks. 665 00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:33,840 Well, unfortunately that's all we have 666 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,600 time for on the sport this week. I've 667 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:39,360 been Neil Clark standing in for George 668 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,080 and Gatry and as George would say, it's 669 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:45,080 been 670 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,080 marvelous. Heat. Heat.