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I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gri a

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Kremlin advisor is the one joai always

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coveted as a Young Man our first guest

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was that and much more and even more so

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now he's a former special adviser to

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Russia's National Security Council and

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he's now seeking to highlight the

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weaknesses of the Western war on terror

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and to show what can and should be done

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instead he's our old friend Alexander

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nekrasov Alexander welcome back thank

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you very much uh this approximate reason

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for this conversation is that the more

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Russia is successful in defeating this

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fanatic islamist

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extremism the less credit Russia seems

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to get for it and the more the West

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doubles down on a policy a strategy

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which has very clearly failed I can see

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that clearly you can see it even more

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clearly with your experience tell us

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well first of all Russia as you know

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George was a victim of um Islamic

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terrorism for a long time and Russia was

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warning the West ever since the first

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Chan war and uh contined during the

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second war in chich that the West should

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be very careful in supporting some of

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these extremists and allowing them to

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actually organize some you know NOS

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Charities and operate on their own

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territory and Russia has been had been

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warning different countries and saying

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look you are helping these

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people uh these

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rebels in shna this will come back to

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honu now I must tell you that when I was

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the special advisor to the National

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Security Council of Russia which is by

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the way part of the Kremlin basically

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it's the same thing uh I was dealing

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with the church in war and one of my

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sort of Adventures if you can p it put

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it this way was meeting some of the

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leaders of the rebels who lived in the

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west and talking to them about the

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possibility of some sort of negotiation

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or trying to to end the conflict and

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what they told me was remarkable they

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were quite open with me talking about

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who supported them they openly said that

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they had the support of the CIA for

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example they they they had the support

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of some of the uh countries of the West

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and they also named some nations in the

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Middle East who were channeling money to

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them arms and helping them and that was

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quite remarkable and obviously the

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Russians later pass this information to

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the west and um some of these groups for

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example like the Muslim Brotherhood now

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this group is now banned in Russia it is

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banned in some of the um countries of

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the gulf but this group is openly

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operating across the the Western world

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and the Russians are again stressing now

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that this group should be banned in the

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west as well because it it presents a

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uh to to to the West itself

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unfortunately nobody listens to that and

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I think the problem is that there there

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are two problems currently for the West

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one of them uh of this problems is that

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the West is finding itself in some sort

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of denial you know when it's fighting

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this Terror because it doesn't really

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have a

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strategy uh of how it's going to tackle

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this problem for example they talk about

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oh look

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radicalization you know dases or Isis is

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supposedly running such a wonderful well

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wonderful in inverted Commerce effective

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effective campaign of recruitment no it

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doesn't it's campaign is very primitive

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it's just that the problem is that

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nobody finds a way of tackling this

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campaign of stopping this campaign of

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going after the so-called Nos and

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charity

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which are helping and funding this and

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so on and I think this is one point the

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second point is which I mentioned but

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it's it's sort of highlight being

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highlighted Now by this uh conflict

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between a group of Arab countries and

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Qatar now these countries are saying

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that Qatar is funding extremism

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supporting the Muslim Brotherhood and

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creating problems for the general world

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now we are witnessing basically a very

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serious development that some of the

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Nations within that camp are realizing

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that the problem is getting out of

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control and that is a good thing on the

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one hand on the other hand I think uh

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attempts to sort of interfere and say

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you know no no no don't forget this stop

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this Kuwait is a wonderful Qatar is a

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wonderful you are all wonderful you know

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stop this won't help as well we have to

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be pragmatic they have to be pragmatic

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they have to understand somebody

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somewhere is helping these people and

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they present a danger and this is why at

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the moment there is a certain lack of

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any coherent strategy to fight this

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terrorism well uh it's a false dichotomy

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in my view because Saudi Arabia is the

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primary Fountain Head of extremism

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ideological theological Fountain Head

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and financial and it's true that they're

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supporting a different group of head

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cutting he eaters in Syria to cut but

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both of them are up to their neck in the

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blood that is being shed by these uh

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extremists but I would take you back if

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I may uh to what I think is fundamental

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in this you must defeat Isis and alqaeda

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on the Battlefield You Must Destroy them

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that's necessary but it's not sufficient

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because it'll all come back again in a

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different form if you don't beat the

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ideological appeal of these people

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primitive though is they have an

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ideological appeal they have yes but um

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I don't know whether it's ideological

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appeal because I think what these people

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are doing is that they're using methods

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of recruitment which have been basically

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used in many

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in in history by other groups for

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example they are appealing to lonely you

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know people who think they are you know

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secluded nobody wants them and so they

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say come to us we have a purpose we have

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a purpose exactly you'll be part of the

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family you'll be part of us we will

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support you we will protect you what can

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be done necessary to defeat them on the

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battlefield but not sufficient but

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Western countries are actually trying to

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stop them being defeated on the

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battlefield they're they're trying to

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stop Russia and Syria and Iraq from

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defeating these people on the

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battlefield well that's another issue

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you you're right to point this out now I

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don't think that they are doing is just

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of like oh let's save dases you know

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Isis uh let's let them leave and and

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operate I don't think that's the

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strategy I think the strategy here first

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of all is to

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obstruct everything that Syria syri

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Syrian government Iran and Russia are

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doing it's more a war against them yes

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rather than against Isis and that is why

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it creates this impression that they

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actually trying to save it it is part of

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the of the policy and uh the problem I I

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think personally and this comes from my

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experience with the Chan um uh

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situation is that b finishing off on

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them on the battlefield is you're

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correct completely correct is not enough

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at all but cutting off the

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funding the arming the training the

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support is crucial and this is why I

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think that you you are correct in saying

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that you know there are different

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players in the game Who support them

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right but the problem is that this

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battle has to start somewhere and even

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if you you say that Saudi Arabia yes is

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also involved and Kuwait is also

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involved and so on I think it's still

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worthwhile to let them start the process

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and Qatar I know it's on the receiving

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end but probably it's worthwhile so that

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it stops doing well as as a Kissinger

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one said it's a Pity that uh they both

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can't lose uh in this uh confrontation

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that's my view only time for one more

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question this all uh flows from the

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policy that the West first developed and

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binski and Carter first developed of my

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enemy's enemy is my friend they

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developed it in Afghanistan to destroy

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the Soviet Union they were ready to arm

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and fund people and they paid for it

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they paid for it a big time it's like

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they never read Frankenstein's monster

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at least not to the end uh there's no

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sign though is there of the West falling

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out of love with that amoral

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policy well unfortunately we are not

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witnessing that and um you know I I I'm

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looking at the way uh Trump is behaving

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now although he you know what I what I

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find absolutely amazing about Trump is

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that he actually won on a ticket that he

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will improve relations with Russia

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exactly he's now trying to pretend that

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he won because he Russia needs to be

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restrained I don't understand this to

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please the Liberals no but the the

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because he's afraid of the Liberals but

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but the logic is disappearing because he

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was voted for because he said what's

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wrong with being friends with Russia yes

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and now this is part of that by the way

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what you are talking about that policies

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that change when they feel like it when

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when they feel it benefits them and so

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on and I think their war on terror is

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not working because changing your views

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and one day saying oh Russia we love you

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yes let's fight with Isis and and

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tomorrow say no no we don't like you and

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you're not doing anything and and and we

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are going to fight against you that's

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why it doesn't work the strategy means

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you stick to it throughout thick and

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thin whereas they change their mind all

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the time and Trump by the way and the

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some of the other leaders of the Western

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World they're exactly the same yes well

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we need to take this show on the road

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you and me because unfortunately we've

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run out of time Alexander nekrasov

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thanks for joining us on the Sputnik

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thank you coming up after the break one

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of the greatest men ever to walk the

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earth certainly one of America's

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greatest Sons Paul Robson problem is not

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a lot of people know that you will see

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you next

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[Music]

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welcome back to Sputnik Paul Robson was

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one of America's greatest Sons indeed

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one of the greatest men ever to walk on

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God's green earth trouble is as they say

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not a lot of people know that perhaps

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especially in America we not content

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with harassing Robeson to his grave he

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is effectively airbrushed out of popular

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history yet once he was a king a

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Colossus towering literally over the

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worlds of sport music film the stage and

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international politics it says here that

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he was 1.91 M tall but as I can't

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translate that into real money I just

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left it out he was though very very tall

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none of this is ancient history there

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are many people still alive today who

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join the cry let ropes and sing when the

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US in a cold war frenzy took away his

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passport and effectively black listed

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him off the stage and screen at one

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stage he sank down a telephone line to a

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packed audience in London same panr town

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hall why that's the question I suppose

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which will now be in the minds at least

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of younger viewers to help answer it

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we've got too aloko star of the stunning

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oneman show that gatri and I both caught

282
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this week in wesworth taraa theater tyo

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thanks what was the main problem with

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Robson that he was black or that he

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wased

286
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or because he was both because he was

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both and because he was supremely

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talented and Drew a huge crowd and um

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that was that was a dangerous

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combination tell us how big a star he

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was uh I I'm aware of it because I'm a

292
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lifelong uh fan but just for people who

293
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are not try and compare him with someone

294
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today I mean how big was he I say that

295
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if you you imagine somebody as famous as

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a performer as Mart um Michael

297
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Jackson and throw in a

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political activist I usually say like

299
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George Galloway

300
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actually um then you have Paul Robson so

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if somebody can pull those huge crowds

302
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and deliver a socialist message that is

303
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very dangerous for the US dangerous just

304
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take us back to the era in which this

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danger was uh perceived what was going

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on okay he was born in

307
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1898 uh and he he burst onto the world

308
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stage actually here in London in 1928

309
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when he first performed in showboat in

310
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which he first sang Old Man River and he

311
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stopped the you know stopped the show

312
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many times um and it was that during

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that performance that he first met um

314
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Welsh miners who were on strike and they

315
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marched all the way from South Wales to

316
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London to try and highlight their plight

317
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and he met he heard them singing on the

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street was drawn to them and heard their

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story and um that's the first time he

320
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realized that actually it seems you

321
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:48,600
don't have to be black to be exploited

322
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by other people and that introduced him

323
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to socialism and communism and he then

324
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went to the Soviet Union a number of

325
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times starting in

326
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1934 uh but this was a man who was

327
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growing as an international singing and

328
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acting star embracing this socialist uh

329
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politics at the same time and he

330
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would sing in a concert and you know

331
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break off you know between songs talk

332
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about inequality in America so this is

333
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pre Martin Luther King and marcol X this

334
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:27,920
man who was a huge star was already Yes

335
00:16:25,319 --> 00:16:31,399
30 years at least was

336
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already carrying the banner for equality

337
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and justice not just for his people in

338
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in the United States but white working

339
00:16:36,839 --> 00:16:42,639
people in the United States he and his

340
00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:44,720
wife Asanda and others were the first

341
00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:47,720
people to form an organization called

342
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the Council on African Affairs to

343
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campaign for um freedom for South

344
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:57,199
Africans so they predated the anti-

345
00:16:54,079 --> 00:17:00,160
aparted struggle by decades as well

346
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decades the

347
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:07,120
additional problem for the power was

348
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:09,839
that he would have no truck with the

349
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with the hatred of the Russian people on

350
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,439
the contrary he loved Russia and was

351
00:17:12,039 --> 00:17:17,679
much loved in Russia very much on his

352
00:17:14,439 --> 00:17:20,679
first visit he said uh for the first

353
00:17:17,679 --> 00:17:23,919
time in my life I'm not a negro I'm a

354
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human being I walk dignity I walk in

355
00:17:23,919 --> 00:17:29,360
dignity very very powerful like a man

356
00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:33,280
with a capital M that's

357
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:35,280
I he definitely was that and this added

358
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,960
to his problems with American power

359
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,320
didn't it very much so when I first read

360
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:43,360
his biography back in

361
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,840
1995 there was one part of it that I

362
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:48,280
said

363
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:50,960
wow and this has to be in my play this

364
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:54,360
this is actually what I thought had had

365
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:57,200
to be on stage on in the theater not

366
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:59,240
necessarily film and that was his

367
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,360
testimony uh before the house and

368
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:05,559
American Activities Committee in June

369
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:09,120
1952 so this is this African-American

370
00:18:05,559 --> 00:18:12,799
man who has actually come is recovering

371
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:15,840
from some mental health uh breakdowns

372
00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:18,280
and he goes he insists on going when he

373
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:21,720
subpoenaed and one of the questions he's

374
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:24,240
asked is why don't you go back to Russia

375
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:27,039
and he looked at this person and said

376
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:29,200
because my father is was a slave and my

377
00:18:27,039 --> 00:18:30,880
people died to build this country and

378
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,600
I'm going to stay here and have a part

379
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,679
of it just like you and no fascist

380
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,440
minded people will will drive me from it

381
00:18:35,679 --> 00:18:41,400
is that

382
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:44,880
clear I mean you're making me tingle and

383
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:48,760
almost making me uh cry yeah one of the

384
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:51,480
strange things is that he is not a part

385
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:54,240
of or at least as it looks from here you

386
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:58,240
may educate me on this he's not a part

387
00:18:54,240 --> 00:19:01,919
of the black political iconography in

388
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:05,480
the United States and I figure that one

389
00:19:01,919 --> 00:19:08,000
of the reasons for that was that he

390
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:11,440
insisted that oppression and

391
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:16,440
exploitation was actually not racially

392
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:19,440
specific you are right uh he was you

393
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:22,840
know one of the first examples of an

394
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:26,840
internationalist but I think um he is

395
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:29,400
not part of the iconography because of

396
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:33,000
the bad press the the way he was

397
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:36,360
portrayed by The Establishment and one

398
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:40,320
example you know we we in the biography

399
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:42,360
that I first read um there was a time

400
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,960
when Paul Robson was going to be

401
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:48,159
celebrated on his 65th birthday so this

402
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,159
would have been uh

403
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:54,360
1965

404
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:56,440
66 and the southern Christian Leadership

405
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:59,280
Council wanted to send a representative

406
00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,200
to New York to be part of it and they

407
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:04,080
asked a young man called John

408
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:08,080
Lewis who is now a very

409
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:11,039
revered uh senator in the United States

410
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,559
Martin Luther King's right-and man uh

411
00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:16,000
Joe you're going to represent us in uh

412
00:20:13,559 --> 00:20:17,600
in New York to honor Paul Robson and he

413
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,880
said who's Paul

414
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:23,320
Robson so the point is that because he

415
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:26,679
was so dangerous and because he had been

416
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:31,480
tainted so badly with the

417
00:20:26,679 --> 00:20:33,360
Communist uh brush um even the members

418
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:36,799
of the civil rights movement in the

419
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:39,400
United States the NAACP for example

420
00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:43,720
denounced him wow because they felt that

421
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:47,360
in doing so he they would look

422
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:49,880
umal exactly exactly so it is I I read

423
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:53,039
somewhere that his attempted suicide

424
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,480
later in life was actually perhaps not

425
00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:59,159
an attempted to attack that's coming

426
00:20:54,480 --> 00:21:02,760
from the outside um well um was he that

427
00:20:59,159 --> 00:21:06,240
dangerous no yes he was he was dangerous

428
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,840
there there there there are two I think

429
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,320
or three occasions in a 10-year period

430
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,919
in which a car in which he was being

431
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:16,520
driven I don't think he drove on three

432
00:21:13,919 --> 00:21:17,679
occasions a wheel fell off the car while

433
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,520
it was in

434
00:21:17,679 --> 00:21:25,200
motion but he did attempt suicide and it

435
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:27,919
is it was felt certainly by Paul Jr his

436
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,559
son that it was a result of him being

437
00:21:27,919 --> 00:21:33,039
drugged

438
00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:34,799
LSD there were a number of um activists

439
00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:39,360
who actually did commit suicide as a

440
00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:42,120
result of of that um so yeah I mean well

441
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:45,240
you've done so much to try and as it

442
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:48,400
were recover the memory uh of Paul

443
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:52,440
Robson this is uh We've appeared uh on

444
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:55,559
stage before together talking about uh

445
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:59,120
Robson uh what more can be done do you

446
00:21:55,559 --> 00:22:01,120
think to make him the hero that

447
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,640
should be at least here where we have

448
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:06,360
some control over

449
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:09,440
events well it is I mean I'm pleased to

450
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:12,799
say that I I think the announcement was

451
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:15,840
made about three four years ago that

452
00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:19,360
Steve McQueen he who directed 12 Years a

453
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:22,480
Slave uh is to do a movie oh wow about

454
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:24,440
Paul Robson now that has all gone quiet

455
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,600
but I would like to assume that it's

456
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,039
because negotiations are going on behind

457
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:33,000
the scenes with with robson's

458
00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:36,480
family if and when that is done in the

459
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:39,080
hands of a a director like Steve McQueen

460
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:43,760
who has who has the support of people

461
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:47,080
like um harib Bella fonte uh that that I

462
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:52,760
think would be a wonderful boost to his

463
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:54,640
to his uh um his fame um and I would

464
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:59,080
love to get a part in that film maybe

465
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,080
even just cleaning the man's shoes

466
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:06,480
well I'm sure uh that uh Steve McQueen

467
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:09,279
uh does watch this show uh so let's hope

468
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,360
so and that we get some progress on that

469
00:23:09,279 --> 00:23:15,320
movie meanwhile the play that you've

470
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:17,080
written and star in uh is on tour isn't

471
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,360
it across the country that's right I've

472
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:22,400
got one more night at the Tara Theater

473
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:26,400
tonight um and then after that I'm at

474
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:28,679
The boxton Fringe uh thereafter I'm at

475
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,600
the Edinburgh Fringe

476
00:23:28,679 --> 00:23:32,679
uh I go I have another play called just

477
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:36,120
an ordinary lawyer which I'm also

478
00:23:32,679 --> 00:23:39,200
touring I'm taking that to the US um in

479
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:42,520
August and so yeah I you know people can

480
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:44,840
find details on my website which is uh

481
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,840
Tao aluco andf

482
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:50,320
friends.com I'll be looking at that

483
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:53,760
myself afterwards call Mr Robson is the

484
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,840
play uh that we're pushing today but all

485
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,679
your work is really outstanding tle

486
00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,720
thanks for joining us on SP thank you

487
00:23:58,679 --> 00:24:02,760
well alas that's all we've got time for

488
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,200
today but you can stay in touch with us

489
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:08,159
on Facebook at Sputnik on Russia today

490
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:11,440
or on Twitter or Instagram at rtor

491
00:24:08,159 --> 00:24:14,799
Sputnik but before we go here's tyo

492
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:20,360
singing of the incomparable Joe Hill

493
00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:24,720
from his oneman show call Mr Robson it's

494
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:29,000
marvelous I dreamed I saw Jo Hill last

495
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:34,320
night alive as you and me

496
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:37,600
says I but Joe you're 10 years dead I

497
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:43,039
never died says

498
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:47,799
he I never died says

499
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:53,080
he the copper bosses killed you Joe they

500
00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:59,919
shut you Joe says I takes more than guns

501
00:24:53,080 --> 00:25:05,880
to kill a man says Joe I didn't

502
00:24:59,919 --> 00:25:11,960
die says Joe I didn't

503
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:14,200
die Jo ain't dead he says to me Joel

504
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:19,799
ain't never

505
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:25,840
died where workers strike and

506
00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:28,919
organize Jo Hill is at their

507
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:32,600
side I never

508
00:25:28,919 --> 00:25:36,240
died says

509
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:38,640
he I

510
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,640
never

511
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,640
died

512
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,850
says he

513
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:48,850
[Laughter]

514
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,769
oh

515
00:26:00,710 --> 00:26:03,769
[Music]