1 00:00:02,450 --> 00:00:06,809 [Music] 2 00:00:35,620 --> 00:00:40,910 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 3 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:42,559 with me George Galloway and me gayatri 4 00:00:40,910 --> 00:00:45,170 locked and loaded 5 00:00:42,559 --> 00:00:48,710 Donald Trump fired the first shots of 6 00:00:45,170 --> 00:00:50,780 his new era in Afghanistan rather than 7 00:00:48,710 --> 00:00:53,300 over the Korean Peninsula but they 8 00:00:50,780 --> 00:00:55,010 haven't gone away you know by the time 9 00:00:53,300 --> 00:00:55,879 he got to Phoenix for his next 10 00:00:55,010 --> 00:00:58,909 rabble-rousing 11 00:00:55,879 --> 00:01:01,400 Donald Trump had kim jong-in firmly back 12 00:00:58,909 --> 00:01:04,100 in his sights it could all end with a 13 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,659 burger in a battle of the haircuts or we 14 00:01:04,100 --> 00:01:08,120 could all end up flame-grilled 15 00:01:05,659 --> 00:01:10,670 of course Korea could be a cipher for 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,770 China in all of this sabre-rattling by 17 00:01:10,670 --> 00:01:15,229 the u.s. at least that's my theory but 18 00:01:12,770 --> 00:01:17,810 why deal with theory when we can hear 19 00:01:15,229 --> 00:01:21,110 the facts from an expert our first guest 20 00:01:17,810 --> 00:01:22,940 is eminent professor Stephen Chan OBE of 21 00:01:21,110 --> 00:01:25,880 the School of Oriental and African 22 00:01:22,940 --> 00:01:29,330 Studies in London professor Stephen 23 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:32,359 thanks for joining us on the sputnik is 24 00:01:29,330 --> 00:01:35,060 there any significance that the meeting 25 00:01:32,359 --> 00:01:38,119 and Camp David with his generals about 26 00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:40,369 which he tweeted last weekend seems to 27 00:01:38,119 --> 00:01:43,250 have been about Afghanistan rather than 28 00:01:40,369 --> 00:01:46,009 Korea or might they be going to fight on 29 00:01:43,250 --> 00:01:47,869 two fronts that probably gearing up to 30 00:01:46,009 --> 00:01:50,479 at least be ready to fight on more than 31 00:01:47,869 --> 00:01:51,979 one front but Donald Trump over to the 32 00:01:50,479 --> 00:01:54,500 world some kind of policy all 33 00:01:51,979 --> 00:01:55,759 Afghanistan your serratus military we 34 00:01:54,500 --> 00:01:58,070 were waiting to see what they would be 35 00:01:55,759 --> 00:01:59,149 doing in that part of the world so it 36 00:01:58,070 --> 00:02:00,770 was genuinely a meeting about 37 00:01:59,149 --> 00:02:02,390 Afghanistan but I would be very 38 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:04,579 surprised of other parts of the world 39 00:02:02,390 --> 00:02:07,549 other theaters weren't very very deeply 40 00:02:04,579 --> 00:02:11,360 discussed although if you look back at 41 00:02:07,549 --> 00:02:12,860 his campaign pledges and his tweets the 42 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,400 last thing in the world you would have 43 00:02:12,860 --> 00:02:19,180 expected would have been Donald Trump to 44 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:22,130 reinforce the failure of Afghanistan 45 00:02:19,180 --> 00:02:25,100 does he have any better ideas in 46 00:02:22,130 --> 00:02:27,530 relation to Korea I have this vision of 47 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:29,930 him like dr. Strangelove astride a 48 00:02:27,530 --> 00:02:32,450 nuclear weapon with a cowboy hat on 49 00:02:29,930 --> 00:02:35,360 shouting yeehaw as he heads for 50 00:02:32,450 --> 00:02:37,069 Pyongyang might it come to that I think 51 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,450 even his generals are very worried it 52 00:02:37,069 --> 00:02:40,069 might come to that and they're trying 53 00:02:38,450 --> 00:02:41,959 very hard to act as risk 54 00:02:40,069 --> 00:02:43,819 in force you don't launch a military 55 00:02:41,959 --> 00:02:45,680 action unless you've got objectives that 56 00:02:43,819 --> 00:02:48,079 can be fulfilled and wholesale 57 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,450 destruction is not an objective that is 58 00:02:48,079 --> 00:02:53,389 very much recognized as desirable these 59 00:02:50,450 --> 00:02:55,069 days but he really doesn't have a policy 60 00:02:53,389 --> 00:02:56,750 he really doesn't have a strategy 61 00:02:55,069 --> 00:02:59,030 towards North Korea 62 00:02:56,750 --> 00:03:02,269 he's very very much bellicose rhetoric 63 00:02:59,030 --> 00:03:04,700 and every single time he utters some of 64 00:03:02,269 --> 00:03:09,109 this very warlike talk the North Koreans 65 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:10,849 just called his bluff but China has come 66 00:03:09,109 --> 00:03:13,879 up as well and they made a clear stance 67 00:03:10,849 --> 00:03:17,450 has that kind of put trump back in his 68 00:03:13,879 --> 00:03:19,280 place also they also warned Trump just 69 00:03:17,450 --> 00:03:22,010 in the last couple of days I think that 70 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:24,349 world leaders not just those bot leaders 71 00:03:22,010 --> 00:03:26,599 but many others have been warning Donald 72 00:03:24,349 --> 00:03:29,079 Trump not to take this beyond a certain 73 00:03:26,599 --> 00:03:31,370 very very limited point the entire 74 00:03:29,079 --> 00:03:33,260 asia-pacific community of nations for 75 00:03:31,370 --> 00:03:37,870 instance the last thing they want is a 76 00:03:33,260 --> 00:03:40,969 nuclear holocaust on their doorstep the 77 00:03:37,870 --> 00:03:43,879 it's come to something that what is 78 00:03:40,969 --> 00:03:47,150 regarded as a primitive regime in 79 00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:51,049 Pyongyang seems to have outfoxed the 80 00:03:47,150 --> 00:03:53,780 might of the American diplomatic and an 81 00:03:51,049 --> 00:03:56,000 propaganda machine would you say so they 82 00:03:53,780 --> 00:03:58,250 do games theory and they do negotiating 83 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,889 strategy just like anyone else and 84 00:03:58,250 --> 00:04:03,319 they've calculated they can call Donald 85 00:04:00,889 --> 00:04:05,379 Trump's bluff because what had Trump's 86 00:04:03,319 --> 00:04:07,430 options either to continue 87 00:04:05,379 --> 00:04:09,949 saber-rattling or actually to drop the 88 00:04:07,430 --> 00:04:12,530 bomb and they'd know that he'd be very 89 00:04:09,949 --> 00:04:14,870 very unlikely to drop the bomb given 90 00:04:12,530 --> 00:04:16,190 current world opinion so they can push 91 00:04:14,870 --> 00:04:18,409 him and they can push him and they're 92 00:04:16,190 --> 00:04:20,690 doing it very very well in the Battle of 93 00:04:18,409 --> 00:04:23,270 the two sides in fact there's North 94 00:04:20,690 --> 00:04:25,690 Korea that's showing greater rationality 95 00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:28,039 of a bloody-minded nature right now 96 00:04:25,690 --> 00:04:30,409 sanctions is what Russia warned about 97 00:04:28,039 --> 00:04:32,389 during the week that don't put more and 98 00:04:30,409 --> 00:04:34,580 more sanctions onto North Korea because 99 00:04:32,389 --> 00:04:36,860 you're only going to push them into a 100 00:04:34,580 --> 00:04:39,770 corner where they'll they really have 101 00:04:36,860 --> 00:04:41,630 little to lose absolutely not only that 102 00:04:39,770 --> 00:04:43,820 not only do you push the regime into a 103 00:04:41,630 --> 00:04:46,280 corner those sanctions have a direct 104 00:04:43,820 --> 00:04:48,830 effect on the population of North Korea 105 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:50,750 and what that does is to make them more 106 00:04:48,830 --> 00:04:53,180 supportive of the regime 107 00:04:50,750 --> 00:04:55,130 and so they become more patriotic as a 108 00:04:53,180 --> 00:04:58,070 result of that so even if they don't 109 00:04:55,130 --> 00:05:00,470 have political desires for the regime to 110 00:04:58,070 --> 00:05:02,780 continue just out of sheer patriotism if 111 00:05:00,470 --> 00:05:04,910 it came to a firefight they would stand 112 00:05:02,780 --> 00:05:08,240 with the current leadership because many 113 00:05:04,910 --> 00:05:11,920 people watching this probably against us 114 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:15,200 hegemony might find themselves over 115 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:17,390 sympathizing with with North Korea how 116 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:20,360 do you characterize the regime in North 117 00:05:17,390 --> 00:05:23,180 Korea in in terms of the political 118 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:26,000 spectrum it's not just the West that 119 00:05:23,180 --> 00:05:27,860 finds North Korea and agnatic and my 120 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,050 enigmatic I don't mean primitive they're 121 00:05:27,860 --> 00:05:32,090 far more sophisticated in many ways and 122 00:05:30,050 --> 00:05:34,610 many people think but even the Chinese 123 00:05:32,090 --> 00:05:37,160 and the Japanese find North Korea very 124 00:05:34,610 --> 00:05:39,050 difficult to deal with this is 125 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:42,320 historically the case and certainly the 126 00:05:39,050 --> 00:05:45,140 case in modern times the idea that there 127 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:47,600 are hermit Kingdom aloof and isolated by 128 00:05:45,140 --> 00:05:50,960 themselves is a long-standing historical 129 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,850 aspect of East Asian relationships but 130 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,760 underneath that very very difficult 131 00:05:52,850 --> 00:05:58,010 enigmatic surface a very great deal of 132 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,550 planning takes place it's very bloody 133 00:05:58,010 --> 00:06:03,740 minded is not exactly a user-friendly 134 00:06:00,550 --> 00:06:07,100 regime the stories we get of great 135 00:06:03,740 --> 00:06:08,870 repression are largely true but it is a 136 00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:11,360 regime which functions on a very strange 137 00:06:08,870 --> 00:06:13,610 kind of rationality and it is rational 138 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:16,610 which has survived to this present day 139 00:06:13,610 --> 00:06:18,440 which has a formidable military machine 140 00:06:16,610 --> 00:06:20,540 and which has a government that is 141 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:24,410 absolutely secure at this moment in time 142 00:06:20,540 --> 00:06:26,510 is it left or is it right I mean it 143 00:06:24,410 --> 00:06:29,960 waives a lot of red flags around but 144 00:06:26,510 --> 00:06:31,760 this is a regime where the Sun followed 145 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:35,240 his father and his son followed him 146 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:38,710 which even in the annals of communist 147 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:41,240 nepotism has never been repeated before 148 00:06:38,710 --> 00:06:43,580 the Chinese leadership today would 149 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,930 regard them as right-wing certainly I 150 00:06:43,580 --> 00:06:47,419 think the Chinese would find them very 151 00:06:44,930 --> 00:06:49,250 antiquated and they're thinking the 152 00:06:47,419 --> 00:06:51,410 Chinese would like a North Korea more 153 00:06:49,250 --> 00:06:53,479 progressive regime in terms of 154 00:06:51,410 --> 00:06:55,220 relationships with the outside world 155 00:06:53,479 --> 00:06:58,400 they don't want to keep riding shotgun 156 00:06:55,220 --> 00:07:00,470 over North Korea forever but at the same 157 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,539 time they are very very loath to push 158 00:07:00,470 --> 00:07:04,130 beyond a certain point there is still 159 00:07:02,539 --> 00:07:06,440 some kind of respect 160 00:07:04,130 --> 00:07:08,810 for the integrity of North Korea as a 161 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,430 sovereign state and also about porn I 162 00:07:08,810 --> 00:07:13,820 don't think the West really gets this a 163 00:07:10,430 --> 00:07:17,090 very very deep memory of the amount of 164 00:07:13,820 --> 00:07:20,060 blood that Chinese soldiers lost in the 165 00:07:17,090 --> 00:07:21,380 Korean War when I go to China and I ask 166 00:07:20,060 --> 00:07:24,350 about Korea 167 00:07:21,380 --> 00:07:27,470 the first response always is that we 168 00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:30,260 can't forget our own people who died is 169 00:07:27,470 --> 00:07:33,320 this something that this Hermit Kingdom 170 00:07:30,260 --> 00:07:35,540 thing is applied to the mentality 171 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:38,510 amongst the people at least in the south 172 00:07:35,540 --> 00:07:41,330 I mean one regime after another has been 173 00:07:38,510 --> 00:07:45,620 more American than than the Americans 174 00:07:41,330 --> 00:07:47,240 but deep inside are the people in the 175 00:07:45,620 --> 00:07:50,510 South the same as the people in the 176 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:52,010 north I think that over the years there 177 00:07:50,510 --> 00:07:53,870 has been a separation between the two 178 00:07:52,010 --> 00:07:55,280 peoples even though ethnically of course 179 00:07:53,870 --> 00:07:57,500 they come from exactly the same 180 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,910 background but I think it's probably not 181 00:07:57,500 --> 00:08:01,190 quite correct to say they're more 182 00:07:58,910 --> 00:08:02,720 American than the Americans I think what 183 00:08:01,190 --> 00:08:04,370 they've tried to do is to become more 184 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:07,580 Japanese than the Japanese in other 185 00:08:04,370 --> 00:08:10,910 words the Japanese were conquered yes in 186 00:08:07,580 --> 00:08:13,940 World War two then set up an economic 187 00:08:10,910 --> 00:08:16,100 miracle and industrial miracle and what 188 00:08:13,940 --> 00:08:18,740 the South Koreans above will want as a 189 00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:21,380 means of historical revenge as it were 190 00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:23,600 but peaceful revenge there's to be seen 191 00:08:21,380 --> 00:08:25,790 as even more successful economically and 192 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,730 industrially than the Japanese and 193 00:08:25,790 --> 00:08:30,470 that's a very clear distinction between 194 00:08:27,730 --> 00:08:32,090 south and north technological 195 00:08:30,470 --> 00:08:34,130 development in the north has been very 196 00:08:32,090 --> 00:08:37,990 very slow by comparison 197 00:08:34,130 --> 00:08:41,650 it's as I've heard you say before it's 198 00:08:37,990 --> 00:08:46,450 it's based on a kind of mechanical 199 00:08:41,650 --> 00:08:49,040 process are they in the digital age now 200 00:08:46,450 --> 00:08:50,390 prevented the digital age but it's not 201 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,850 widespread and they've been 202 00:08:50,390 --> 00:08:57,370 experimenting with digital technologies 203 00:08:52,850 --> 00:09:00,440 by hacking into the receivers and suit 204 00:08:57,370 --> 00:09:02,450 how to do this very very well in terms 205 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,070 of applying this wholesale to both their 206 00:09:02,450 --> 00:09:06,710 industrial development and particularly 207 00:09:04,070 --> 00:09:07,610 to their military development they still 208 00:09:06,710 --> 00:09:10,310 haven't been able to do that 209 00:09:07,610 --> 00:09:11,720 successfully yet so to that extent the 210 00:09:10,310 --> 00:09:15,500 West doesn't will have much to worry 211 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:17,540 about because the grade of their efforts 212 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:19,850 to acquire nuclear capacity 213 00:09:17,540 --> 00:09:22,250 they may acquire a nuclear capacity of 214 00:09:19,850 --> 00:09:24,770 some sort but their delivery systems 215 00:09:22,250 --> 00:09:27,350 their reliability of their weaponry all 216 00:09:24,770 --> 00:09:30,670 of that is going to be more than one 217 00:09:27,350 --> 00:09:35,000 generation old I have been there twice 218 00:09:30,670 --> 00:09:40,160 and I found it as a student of these 219 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:45,650 things interesting but most peculiar the 220 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:47,870 guide I had 24 hours almost a day he was 221 00:09:45,650 --> 00:09:50,650 a good example of someone who was 222 00:09:47,870 --> 00:09:54,020 clearly very bright but himself 223 00:09:50,650 --> 00:09:56,780 hermetically sealed he knew nothing of 224 00:09:54,020 --> 00:09:59,930 the outside world and yet appeared on 225 00:09:56,780 --> 00:10:02,240 the face of it to know everything and he 226 00:09:59,930 --> 00:10:04,220 genuinely believed Kim jong-il was the 227 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:07,910 leader then that Kim jong-il was 228 00:10:04,220 --> 00:10:11,200 Superman that he could look a field of 229 00:10:07,910 --> 00:10:14,570 grain and tell the farmers how it might 230 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:17,330 fructify more that he could look a piece 231 00:10:14,570 --> 00:10:20,870 of science or engineering or any other 232 00:10:17,330 --> 00:10:22,940 skill and lectured the people he seemed 233 00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:26,860 really to believe that is this just a 234 00:10:22,940 --> 00:10:31,100 front or other people really in millions 235 00:10:26,860 --> 00:10:34,970 behind this juichi idea that the koreans 236 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:37,010 put forth the indoctrination schema very 237 00:10:34,970 --> 00:10:39,380 very strong and very long-lasting in 238 00:10:37,010 --> 00:10:41,120 North Korea so I'm not surprised two 239 00:10:39,380 --> 00:10:43,400 people seemed actually to believe this 240 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,280 whether or not underneath that there's a 241 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,920 certain form of inscrutability to use an 242 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:51,170 old term in which they're not quite as 243 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,760 believing as they seem to that's another 244 00:10:51,170 --> 00:10:54,890 question but certainly people that I 245 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,660 meet on the outside North Korean 246 00:10:54,890 --> 00:10:58,880 ambassadors and North Korean diplomats 247 00:10:56,660 --> 00:11:00,700 for instance once you get down and dirty 248 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,740 with them meaning when you get drunk 249 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:06,130 they do seem to have a far greater 250 00:11:03,740 --> 00:11:08,930 amount of worldliness than meets the eye 251 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:12,560 well that's interesting as a non-drinker 252 00:11:08,930 --> 00:11:15,890 I never get there evidently and the last 253 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:19,130 Korean diplomat I met has done a runner 254 00:11:15,890 --> 00:11:21,680 and is now in Seoul or Tokyo or 255 00:11:19,130 --> 00:11:24,620 somewhere spilling the beans on the on 256 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:28,630 the North Korean regime I entered the 257 00:11:24,620 --> 00:11:30,440 mausoleum you might call it kind of 258 00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:34,190 Graceland of 259 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:36,860 of Kim il-sung and now presumably his 260 00:11:34,190 --> 00:11:41,230 son Kim jong-il there was mass hysteria 261 00:11:36,860 --> 00:11:46,699 in the audience they all burst into 262 00:11:41,230 --> 00:11:48,199 sobbing exactly the same moment so if it 263 00:11:46,699 --> 00:11:52,970 is just choreography 264 00:11:48,199 --> 00:11:55,310 I mean it's must be Berkeley with with 265 00:11:52,970 --> 00:11:57,259 Rockets on absolutely but you've got to 266 00:11:55,310 --> 00:11:59,449 have a comparative dimension here very 267 00:11:57,259 --> 00:12:02,269 shortly after Chairman Mao died in China 268 00:11:59,449 --> 00:12:04,339 for instance the crowds outside lining 269 00:12:02,269 --> 00:12:07,339 up to go into his mausoleum were also 270 00:12:04,339 --> 00:12:09,470 genuinely mournful when people in the 271 00:12:07,339 --> 00:12:12,500 Soviet Union lined up to see the 272 00:12:09,470 --> 00:12:15,199 embalmed corpse of Stalin it was genuine 273 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:18,379 sorrow now having said what of that in 274 00:12:15,199 --> 00:12:20,629 certain Asian cultures it is as it were 275 00:12:18,379 --> 00:12:23,329 a matter of good manners to be seen 276 00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:26,089 publicly to weep on an occasion which is 277 00:12:23,329 --> 00:12:27,680 meant to be a sad one so what they might 278 00:12:26,089 --> 00:12:30,230 have been doing may have had nothing to 279 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:32,779 do with hysteria and simply something to 280 00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:34,339 do with good manners someone in the 281 00:12:32,779 --> 00:12:35,930 crowd starts weeping well you better 282 00:12:34,339 --> 00:12:37,990 start weeping too otherwise you're going 283 00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:41,600 to be the impolite one in this gathering 284 00:12:37,990 --> 00:12:44,810 how extraordinary that's the real danger 285 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,730 of North Korea good manners professor 286 00:12:44,810 --> 00:12:49,120 you're a genius thank you very much 287 00:12:46,730 --> 00:12:54,339 indeed for joining us thank you 288 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:54,339 Barcelona terror we're next stay tuned 289 00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:09,760 welcome back to Sputnik there should be 290 00:13:07,030 --> 00:13:12,640 no doubt that the world is at war it's 291 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:15,040 not a world war yet but there is war 292 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:18,010 throughout the world just last week 293 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:21,100 hundreds were mowed down by terrorists 294 00:13:18,010 --> 00:13:24,610 in Barcelona and cam brill's in Finland 295 00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:25,390 and Syria Iraq Nigeria trust me I could 296 00:13:24,610 --> 00:13:27,760 go on 297 00:13:25,390 --> 00:13:29,890 of course the definition of terrorism is 298 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,530 hard to agree as the great intellectual 299 00:13:29,890 --> 00:13:35,410 Peter Ustinov put it war is a terrorism 300 00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:38,560 of the rich and terrorism is the war of 301 00:13:35,410 --> 00:13:39,130 the poor but he said that a long time 302 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:42,820 ago 303 00:13:39,130 --> 00:13:45,100 today's terrorism is a method a means by 304 00:13:42,820 --> 00:13:47,890 which the innocent are made to pay the 305 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:51,160 price for the guilty a method of murder 306 00:13:47,890 --> 00:13:54,370 and mayhem which identifies the softest 307 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:56,560 possible targets and murder some Russia 308 00:13:54,370 --> 00:13:59,140 also suffers terrorist attacks mainly 309 00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:01,210 emanating from the same Al Qaeda Isis 310 00:13:59,140 --> 00:14:03,670 swamp which attacks people from Kuala 311 00:14:01,210 --> 00:14:06,220 Lumpur to Manchester with nobody left 312 00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:08,530 out in between Russia has actually 313 00:14:06,220 --> 00:14:10,000 defeated terrorism in the past not 314 00:14:08,530 --> 00:14:12,850 something you could save for the bush 315 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,400 Blair wars on terror and a Kremlin 316 00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:15,850 advisor at the time they did is our next 317 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,910 guest 318 00:14:15,850 --> 00:14:21,460 Alexander nekross off who joins us now 319 00:14:18,910 --> 00:14:24,090 Thank You Alexander for coming back on 320 00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:27,670 the Sputnik let's start with Barcelona 321 00:14:24,090 --> 00:14:30,940 this is a pretty perfect case study 322 00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:33,910 isn't it absolutely I think it's the 323 00:14:30,940 --> 00:14:36,460 first time that we can peel the onion of 324 00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:38,830 the terrorist attack and see where it 325 00:14:36,460 --> 00:14:41,560 started who is behind it how it was 326 00:14:38,830 --> 00:14:44,640 prepared and so on usually we get all 327 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:47,560 the terrorists short killed murdered and 328 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:50,320 we don't know anything so this time 329 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:52,750 round we know that it's a tiny tiny town 330 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,970 Spanish town of repol which is only 331 00:14:52,750 --> 00:14:58,660 11,000 people might be even called the 332 00:14:54,970 --> 00:15:00,700 village that was this Imam who was 333 00:14:58,660 --> 00:15:03,760 actually quite a colorful colorful 334 00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:05,860 person with a colorful past how he 335 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,380 became an imam is difficult to 336 00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:10,630 understand but he somehow managed to 337 00:15:08,380 --> 00:15:12,010 sort of slip you know through the net 338 00:15:10,630 --> 00:15:15,310 and use this human 339 00:15:12,010 --> 00:15:18,160 rights laws to remain in Spain so this 340 00:15:15,310 --> 00:15:21,220 is the man who is the brain behind both 341 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:24,970 of the attacks and what is interesting 342 00:15:21,220 --> 00:15:27,550 is that it appears now that the Spanish 343 00:15:24,970 --> 00:15:31,030 police has found that he has a direct 344 00:15:27,550 --> 00:15:35,220 link to the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood 345 00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:37,780 now that is where the whole story begins 346 00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:41,440 sort of from the Syrian middle-eastern 347 00:15:37,780 --> 00:15:44,040 angle what what is also has come out is 348 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:47,070 that the mosque where he operated from 349 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,780 was influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood 350 00:15:47,070 --> 00:15:51,910 now I'd like to remind readers that the 351 00:15:49,780 --> 00:15:55,990 Russians you mentioned that the Russian 352 00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:57,910 government managed to suppress terrorism 353 00:15:55,990 --> 00:15:59,350 Russian government banned the Muslim - 354 00:15:57,910 --> 00:16:02,110 bravo suit on its territory it's 355 00:15:59,350 --> 00:16:03,970 considered a terrorist group now it has 356 00:16:02,110 --> 00:16:07,150 been appealing to the Western countries 357 00:16:03,970 --> 00:16:09,580 to do the same but it has not been done 358 00:16:07,150 --> 00:16:12,970 and although the Rockhold's as I 359 00:16:09,580 --> 00:16:15,100 understand now the linkage here is that 360 00:16:12,970 --> 00:16:18,040 the Muslim Brotherhood is financed by 361 00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:20,260 certain countries including Qatar at 362 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,740 least they're accused of that Kuwait 363 00:16:20,260 --> 00:16:25,960 some others and that is why one of the 364 00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:30,640 reasons why there is a conflict between 365 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:34,960 Saudi Arabia United Arab Emirates Egypt 366 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:37,630 and Qatar now I must say that Russia 367 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,360 today has been covering that conflict 368 00:16:37,630 --> 00:16:42,970 between the Arab nations and some called 369 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,310 in Western media seems to be fallen 370 00:16:42,970 --> 00:16:46,630 silent about it completely if you notice 371 00:16:45,310 --> 00:16:48,280 that because they have friends on both 372 00:16:46,630 --> 00:16:50,590 sides and yes I know but it is 373 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,860 interesting because you know Russia did 374 00:16:50,590 --> 00:16:55,900 offer to help mediate you know this 375 00:16:53,860 --> 00:16:58,450 conflict because really nobody wants 376 00:16:55,900 --> 00:17:01,300 this to get out of control but strangely 377 00:16:58,450 --> 00:17:04,360 enough the Western powers are saying 378 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:07,770 well that's not you know let's not even 379 00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:10,780 talk about it let's just stop this and 380 00:17:07,770 --> 00:17:13,329 turning to Saudi Arabia and Egypt and so 381 00:17:10,780 --> 00:17:15,430 on that's a you know way of Qatar you 382 00:17:13,329 --> 00:17:17,650 know this is not a good idea because 383 00:17:15,430 --> 00:17:20,760 there's this is a principle conflict 384 00:17:17,650 --> 00:17:23,860 about you know supporting extremism 385 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:26,049 especially in Syria and now in Europe 386 00:17:23,860 --> 00:17:28,149 and I think that's quite strange 387 00:17:26,049 --> 00:17:30,399 that we have a situation like that well 388 00:17:28,149 --> 00:17:34,239 strange indeed as you know I I don't 389 00:17:30,399 --> 00:17:37,119 entirely share your view on this for a 390 00:17:34,239 --> 00:17:39,610 number of reasons for me Saudi Arabia 391 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:42,460 and Qatar are exactly the same both our 392 00:17:39,610 --> 00:17:45,190 terrorist funders both are ideological 393 00:17:42,460 --> 00:17:46,989 fountainhead's of this terror phenomenon 394 00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:49,419 but now I want to pick up something that 395 00:17:46,989 --> 00:17:51,249 you said which was very profound 396 00:17:49,419 --> 00:17:54,940 actually when you talked about the 397 00:17:51,249 --> 00:17:58,720 colorful past of this Imam outside 398 00:17:54,940 --> 00:18:00,759 Barcelona I wrote recently that actually 399 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,039 we're better looking not in the mosques 400 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:05,950 but we have to look there but in the 401 00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:09,279 nether world for the kind of people who 402 00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:10,840 will be up next to kill themselves and 403 00:18:09,279 --> 00:18:15,039 as many of us as they can take with them 404 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:18,249 yet again this amount even was a drug 405 00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:22,299 peddler was in prison you are importing 406 00:18:18,249 --> 00:18:25,809 massive amounts of hashish the youth 407 00:18:22,299 --> 00:18:29,679 involved were only months before chasing 408 00:18:25,809 --> 00:18:33,480 girls taking drugs drinking alcohol and 409 00:18:29,679 --> 00:18:37,359 time after time from nice to Berlin to 410 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:40,359 Manchester to London Bridge and so on 411 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,019 these people who are committing these 412 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,659 acts 413 00:18:41,019 --> 00:18:48,159 I'm not your regular prayer at the 414 00:18:43,659 --> 00:18:50,889 mosque not mr. pious but mr. strip club 415 00:18:48,159 --> 00:18:52,779 owner in Mullen back in in in Barcelona 416 00:18:50,889 --> 00:18:56,159 I'm not making that up the two guys in 417 00:18:52,779 --> 00:19:00,190 the Bataclan owned a strip bar in 418 00:18:56,159 --> 00:19:03,190 Brussels well it is amazing and you're 419 00:19:00,190 --> 00:19:05,320 right because what has come out from 420 00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:07,929 Ripoll is that these guys didn't really 421 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,509 attend the mosque they sort of came in 422 00:19:07,929 --> 00:19:13,779 once or twice probably to meet their mom 423 00:19:10,509 --> 00:19:16,210 for something else so the Muslims there 424 00:19:13,779 --> 00:19:18,309 are now quite upset about this and 425 00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:22,179 they're saying you know they are not one 426 00:19:18,309 --> 00:19:24,399 of us and this is one point what I find 427 00:19:22,179 --> 00:19:26,350 amazing and I think that you know people 428 00:19:24,399 --> 00:19:28,710 who are interested in the causes of 429 00:19:26,350 --> 00:19:32,049 terrorism and how it operates and how 430 00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:34,029 people are recruited I advise them to 431 00:19:32,049 --> 00:19:37,210 read further the styrsky The Devil's 432 00:19:34,029 --> 00:19:39,610 because the Devils is a novel about 433 00:19:37,210 --> 00:19:42,520 terrorism but terrorism 434 00:19:39,610 --> 00:19:45,760 Russia but the interesting thing is that 435 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:49,270 the styrsky describes what sort of 436 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:52,299 people go into terrorism and how they 437 00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:56,080 operate and for example he was the first 438 00:19:52,299 --> 00:19:58,059 well great writer to say that they 439 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,670 operate in cells that don't know each 440 00:19:58,059 --> 00:20:03,490 other so the one of the people in the 441 00:20:00,670 --> 00:20:06,100 book who is in charge of this terrorist 442 00:20:03,490 --> 00:20:08,290 organization he tells one of the 443 00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:10,270 characters oh they don't know each other 444 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:13,330 I know but they don't know each other so 445 00:20:10,270 --> 00:20:15,850 even if one cell is smashed the others 446 00:20:13,330 --> 00:20:18,490 don't know who the others are and I 447 00:20:15,850 --> 00:20:22,179 think the styrsky he put his hand on it 448 00:20:18,490 --> 00:20:24,510 that these people who are terrorists he 449 00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:27,880 says I'm not really about any religion 450 00:20:24,510 --> 00:20:30,429 these people are mostly criminals about 451 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,380 power and money or they're criminals 452 00:20:30,429 --> 00:20:35,080 because they're you know petty criminals 453 00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:37,929 just like these guys you know into drugs 454 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:40,290 and do this and do that and I think this 455 00:20:37,929 --> 00:20:44,200 is the important message that 456 00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:47,200 governments fail to deliver we have to 457 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:49,660 distinguish religion and terrorism and 458 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:53,309 this is not working because basically 459 00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:56,770 the opinion in the West o Muslims 460 00:20:53,309 --> 00:20:59,169 terrorism this has to be mistaken this 461 00:20:56,770 --> 00:21:01,419 has to be divided the day this is the 462 00:20:59,169 --> 00:21:05,620 first time though I mean I'm well aware 463 00:21:01,419 --> 00:21:07,710 of cell structure both in terrorism and 464 00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:11,080 even in revolutionary politics 465 00:21:07,710 --> 00:21:15,130 revolutionary struggle if you're a 466 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:17,110 revolutionary a cell is a good idea this 467 00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:19,750 is the biggest seller ever heard of I 468 00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:23,200 mean there's I don't know how many dead 469 00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:26,830 how many in prison it's a pretty big 470 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:31,900 cell in a very small town it amazes me 471 00:21:26,830 --> 00:21:34,210 the Austin Powers caliber of those who 472 00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:37,000 are fighting the terrorism how is it not 473 00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:40,299 possible to notice a growing bond 474 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:44,500 between a group of the best part of 20 475 00:21:40,299 --> 00:21:48,790 people all of fighting age before they 476 00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:51,010 explode well first of all I think that 477 00:21:48,790 --> 00:21:51,450 in this town I think there was only one 478 00:21:51,010 --> 00:21:54,480 police 479 00:21:51,450 --> 00:21:56,700 one something as far as I know and I 480 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,740 think that the reason icicle problem I 481 00:21:56,700 --> 00:22:01,529 think the reason why they chose this 482 00:21:58,740 --> 00:22:04,799 town is because exactly for that purpose 483 00:22:01,529 --> 00:22:07,110 who would think that it's there you know 484 00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:09,450 they would look at big cities they would 485 00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:12,000 look at metropolis as where there's a 486 00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:14,789 possibility there so thinking about you 487 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,159 know big mosques and so on and so on but 488 00:22:14,789 --> 00:22:20,460 you said that you did not agree with me 489 00:22:17,159 --> 00:22:23,309 now I think that this strategy was not 490 00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:25,169 devised by a mom but this a mom this 491 00:22:23,309 --> 00:22:27,720 comes from the Muslim Brotherhood the 492 00:22:25,169 --> 00:22:29,460 people who are you know understand how 493 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:32,279 it's done and they're quite strong in 494 00:22:29,460 --> 00:22:35,279 Syria by the way they are were the ones 495 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:38,279 who are waging the war and and and I 496 00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:41,220 have just read yesterday that the Muslim 497 00:22:38,279 --> 00:22:44,070 Brotherhood in Syria is side by side 498 00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:46,679 with al-qaeda and Isis so yeah yeah 499 00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:50,429 they're cooperating so you see this is a 500 00:22:46,679 --> 00:22:52,529 very powerful entity now and and it's 501 00:22:50,429 --> 00:22:54,570 not a coincidence that the Russians 502 00:22:52,529 --> 00:22:56,429 immediately pointed out the Muslim 503 00:22:54,570 --> 00:23:00,630 Brotherhood because they saw the danger 504 00:22:56,429 --> 00:23:02,639 in Russia for them and that is why and 505 00:23:00,630 --> 00:23:04,340 they do talk to to the Western 506 00:23:02,639 --> 00:23:07,590 governments and tell them about this 507 00:23:04,340 --> 00:23:09,809 problem now I think this has something 508 00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:10,620 to do with strategy developed by 509 00:23:09,809 --> 00:23:14,130 somebody else 510 00:23:10,620 --> 00:23:16,139 this guy Imam this this Imam he doesn't 511 00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:17,820 look like you know a strategy you think 512 00:23:16,139 --> 00:23:20,010 it's a copycat 513 00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:22,830 you think it's proper least you know I 514 00:23:20,010 --> 00:23:26,669 think it was very carefully planned by 515 00:23:22,830 --> 00:23:28,919 somebody else because George pointed out 516 00:23:26,669 --> 00:23:31,470 quite correctly you know he did with 517 00:23:28,919 --> 00:23:34,350 drugs he spent time in prison years yeah 518 00:23:31,470 --> 00:23:38,580 he doesn't look like a man who thinks 519 00:23:34,350 --> 00:23:41,549 you know in a way that the strategic so 520 00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:43,889 somebody else somewhere was giving him 521 00:23:41,549 --> 00:23:46,169 instructions and somebody else somewhere 522 00:23:43,889 --> 00:23:48,210 chose this small 523 00:23:46,169 --> 00:23:52,110 I don't know village town how you call a 524 00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:54,059 triple and that that's why I think the 525 00:23:52,110 --> 00:23:56,549 reason why I started peeling the onion 526 00:23:54,059 --> 00:23:59,100 over stereo attack I think this is a 527 00:23:56,549 --> 00:24:01,980 situation which exists somewhere else as 528 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:04,400 well that is why now they will have to 529 00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:07,010 look for this tiny tiny small 530 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,530 and search there because suddenly 531 00:24:07,010 --> 00:24:12,070 they're confronted with a very different 532 00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:23,420 problem something that is completely 533 00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:29,270 they unaccustomed to it thanks for 534 00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:30,950 joining us thank you and now it's your 535 00:24:29,270 --> 00:24:33,230 turn to tell us what you think through 536 00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:34,280 the portals of social media what's 537 00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:36,890 rattling Gayatri 538 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:40,760 so you recently tweeted a doom president 539 00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:43,250 a doomed war and a doomed Empire - its 540 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,860 Simon replied the doomed are those 541 00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:46,400 troops sent to the pointless war and for 542 00:24:45,860 --> 00:24:48,410 what end 543 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:52,280 apart from greasing the arms industry 544 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:53,960 pockets and Adam Smith said well he 545 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,620 surely hasn't learned from history that 546 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:59,270 Afghanistan is an unwinnable war 547 00:24:56,620 --> 00:25:03,020 well Afghanistan is an unwinnable war 548 00:24:59,270 --> 00:25:04,730 and Korea is even more unwinnable and of 549 00:25:03,020 --> 00:25:07,850 course now at least the Afghans are 550 00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:10,760 fighting in their sandals with with 551 00:25:07,850 --> 00:25:13,640 primitive rifles some of which they 552 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:17,150 stole from the Russians as long ago as 553 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:20,620 the 1980s the Koreans on the other hand 554 00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:23,300 have millions of people under arms 555 00:25:20,620 --> 00:25:27,800 bristling with nationalist and ending 556 00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:30,620 any attack by Trump on Korea will see a 557 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,960 complete conflagration yeah in the 558 00:25:30,620 --> 00:25:35,150 region exactly and it's only three three 559 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,040 got time for today which alas means 560 00:25:35,150 --> 00:25:38,230 that's the end of the show but you can 561 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,120 stay in touch with us on Facebook 562 00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:43,940 Sputnik on Russia Today or Twitter and 563 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:45,830 Instagram RT underscore Sputnik goodbye 564 00:25:43,940 --> 00:25:49,390 from me Gayatri I'm from me George 565 00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:49,390 Galloway it's been marvelous 566 00:25:53,730 --> 00:25:56,789 [Music]