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[Music]

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okay three I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gri Libya

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has gone completely to hell and there's

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no timetable for a return Journey there

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may not be one at all David Cameron

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William ha and the other fools who

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govern our Affairs bombed the hell out

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of Libya of course in order to save it

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but by any reasoning outside of the

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lunatic asylum the NATO War has resulted

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in an unmitigated disaster arguably even

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greater than the disaster we unleashed

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in Iraq if only because Libya is a lot

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closer to here a Mediterranean country

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only a short sale from the European

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Mainland as if things weren't bad enough

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in Libya to the alphabet soup of Waring

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factions tearing the country apart we

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must now add the dreaded Isis last week

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they lined up 21 Christians on the beach

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facing Europe and and cut off their head

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one by one of course they were Egyptian

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Christians cops whose blood for the west

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and especially its media was well less

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valuable thereby but the atrocity has

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triggered some events which may prove

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momentous joining us now is haa K

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Mustafa who despite her years is a very

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considerable expert on the Arab mrib

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thanks very much haa for coming back on

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the show the last time you were here

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Libya was in a mess it's arguably now

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finished as a state it's absolutely a

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failed State there is no longer any

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libia to speak of to be honest it's

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fractured it's War torn and it's now the

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new playground for Isis murderers we'll

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come back to Isis in a minute there was

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already a real existential crisis before

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Isis emerged on the scene the country is

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effectively in three parts maybe more uh

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Waring militias have set up rival

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governments

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uh One controls the airport so you can't

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get into the country unless you go

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through them a different set of people

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is in Benghazi pretending to be the

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government government in tripa

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pretending to be the government who is

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the government is there any government

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there is no government there are a few

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people claiming that they're somehow

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ruling the show but no one really is

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it's a lawless country and it's

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completely left of its own devices and

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we're seeing the results day in day out

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it's a situation that is deteriorating

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as we speak and of course all this was

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obviously predict predictable given that

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it was bombed into democracy and as

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we've seen before and was discussed

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before when you bomb a country into

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democracy this is the result you get the

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idea was to get rid of the Gaddafi

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regime even though that regime was

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cooperating very profitably indeed uh

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with the West uh relations with sarosi

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relations with Tony Blair and so on uh

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for some reason they decided Gaddafi had

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to go and go he did uh nobody seems to

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have known that the result would be

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exactly as Gaddafi predicted I remember

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them laughing when he said that the

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uprising in Benghazi uh was Al-Qaeda

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they laughed out loud on the television

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at this idea and yet that's where we now

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are Isis and Al-Qaeda Breakaway rejected

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by Al-Qaeda as too extreme too sectarian

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too fanatic even for Usama Bin Laden's

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outfit uh where are they

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what are they doing and are they going

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to grow stronger they're very likely to

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grow stronger because of course they

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operate in areas where there is no

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resistance to their expansion and of

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course we know that the country was

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flooded with arms at the time of the

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NATO Onslaught so now there are arms

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everywhere there are youthful there's a

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youthful population in Libya doing

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nothing and actually arm to the teeth

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there are fraction Wars and and you know

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struggles between the various parties so

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I think it's a perfect ground it's the

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fer it's the ideal fertile ground for

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Isis expansion even better than Syria

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and Iraq because of course these

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countries still have some sort of well

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they have a stable government and they

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have armies resisting Isis expansion

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Libya doesn't and so therefore Libya

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Isis is almost has found its perfect

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place to actually develop and spread

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across the sah the reason that the

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Taliban came to power in Afghanistan was

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exactly this scenario the country was

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broken into pieces rival gangs were

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murdering each other the Taliban came

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along and said we are are a gang but we

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are the strongest gang and we have a

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plan and they eventually subjugated all

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the other Waring parties or at least

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drove them out uh and came to power is

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there a real chance that on the

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Mediterranean Isis might actually

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achieve power in Libya well for one

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thing comparing them to the Taliban is

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actually it's the the Taliban are much

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nicer than Isis Isis were very you know

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very opposed to women's rights and all

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the rest of but they didn't actually

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line up 21 Christians and and beheaded

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them in front of the cameras there are a

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lot of things that I that the Taliban

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actually never dared doing so even the

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comparison is actually is perhaps

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unbelievable absolutely they blew up

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statues of the Buddhas but they didn't

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cut people's heads off and film it and

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in such you know glorified way so I

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think the the Taliban almost appear now

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as the nice guys in comparison to Isis

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and of course I believe that now Isis

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facing no resistance there is absolutely

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no reason why they wouldn't expand the

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problem now is actually to at least

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contain them within Libya and that's

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probably going to be the challenge for

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the other countries that's what I was

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just about to ask what about the

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neighboring countries of Libya are they

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affecting are they affected by this of

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course they were very scared to see an

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Isis expansion within their borders so

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we know already that Egypt has

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intervened and and they bombed some

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areas some Isis strongholds we know that

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Tunisia and Algeria are working together

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in order to sort of at least secure both

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the borders of Tunisia and Algeria in

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ensuring that Isis doesn't move into

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that very wide desert area that is very

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difficult to actually monit

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is there an actual border well no it's

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it's the Sahara Desert it's very very

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difficult to secure you obviously with

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the the Algerian government which has

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it's a oil rich country and therefore

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has good equipment to monitor to Fly

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Above the area and actually secure it

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more or less attempt to secure it I

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think there is some effort in that part

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of of the region however it remains a

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very very difficult area to to police

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definitely another difference between

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the Taliban and Al-Qaeda and Isis is

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that the Taliban were local they wanted

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to rule only Afghanistan Al-Qaeda and

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Isis have uh not just a pan Arabic uh

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ambition uh but uh when they lined these

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people up on the beach to cut their

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heads off they were pointing at Europe

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and saying we're headed your way uh

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Libya is very very close to Europe uh

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and that's perhaps concentrating the

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mind of politicians who helped Isis and

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Al-Qaeda grow into the power that they

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are in in the first place either

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advertently or

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inadvertently uh how realistic is it

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that Libya will become a bridge head for

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this kind of extremism into Europe in a

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big way I I think that that's sort of

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almost a te a scare mongering technique

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they they've been really trying to poke

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the West for a while with the beheadings

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of the two Western journalists but

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obviously I think their ambition Remains

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the Arab world I think it's an the

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easier thing to do crossing the

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Mediterranean tackling major armies

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major Western armies is a is a

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completely different issue and I think

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while they're trying to work on that

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sort of scaremongering thing I think

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their ambition now is to expand within

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Africa the Sahel belt which is obviously

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very badly secured which where there are

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areas that have have facing tribal

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issues so they're probably going to go

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for the easy option which is to spread

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across Sahel and then Unite with Boko

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Haram which is in Nigeria which has

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already declared itself a part of this

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caliphate this bogus self-appointed

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caliphate based in Iraq Syria

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uh but now the uh the state of Borno in

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the north of Nigeria has declared itself

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to be a part of this worldwide uh

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Empire one of the obvious points is that

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these people are thriving in the absence

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of anybody else with a plan uh there's a

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failure of Arab nationalism there's a

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failure of socialism uh and islamism uh

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of this particularly virulent brand

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looks like the only sh and tone well one

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of the reasons why these failures in the

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Arab world came about was very much

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because the Arab Spring the original

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Arab Spring was hijacked you know there

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were M the the movements that triggered

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the Arab Spring were very legitimate

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these were people who were requesting

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more freedoms they wanted to rid their

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governments of Corruption of cronyism so

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these were very legitimate claims by all

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Arabs who took to the streets in 20111

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but of course with the NATO intervention

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with the threat with the uh destruction

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of of Syria through proxy uh movements

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from funded by the Saudis funded by

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Western governments we've seen the

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collapse more or less the collapse of of

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Syria we see that Iraq is a basket case

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as a result of the 2003 Invasion and

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Libya as well you know these were major

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points that kept the sort of pan arabist

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movement together now with the collapse

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of this of course what will fill the

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void the only void that can be filled is

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obviously these movements that are

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coming in with the message well we're

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we're Muslim we're all under the banner

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of Islam we can work together and to

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many people that message is actually

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appealing in the absence of a credible

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alternative their message is actually

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very attractive now General CeCe uh

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who's killed a fair number of Egyptians

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himself was sufficiently outraged at the

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killing of 21 Egyptians in Libya to bomb

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the country kind of had a right to don't

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you think it it's difficult to say I

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think as you say for somebody who who

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showed no remorse in gunning down 1400

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unarmed protesters I think this is a bit

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of a show for his domestic audience as

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as opposed to really trying to tackley

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this I think to a certain extent for for

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for CeCe having the islamist Bogan is

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very good for his standing in Egypt

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because it allows him to continue to

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crack down on the Muslim Brotherhood on

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any form of dissent by saying well look

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if I'm not this firm this is these are

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the guys that you're going to get in

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Egypt so I think it's more of a show

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than actually a genuine desire to to

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intervene and stop the spread of Isis in

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the last days uh eminent people uh some

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00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:05,320
of them fools but eminent nonetheless

274
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:09,320
have begun to raise the Spectre of uh a

275
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:11,480
NATO ground invasion of Libya uh I would

276
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,839
have thought that very unwise myself do

277
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,480
you think they're going to do it and if

278
00:11:12,839 --> 00:11:16,440
they did what would be the result if

279
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,120
they did the result would be a bad

280
00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,360
situation turned worse I think there is

281
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,600
no secret about that we we know for a

282
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,519
fact and if we look at it objectively

283
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,120
and we observe the map of the Arab world

284
00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:28,560
we can see that every Western

285
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,200
intervention has turned a bad situation

286
00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:34,360
worse so I kind of imagine anything

287
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:36,399
worse than another NATO intervention in

288
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,440
in Libya now are they going to do it I

289
00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:40,040
think that there is a desire to appeal

290
00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,680
to Western audiences and say that

291
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,480
something is being done I think that

292
00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:46,200
seeing planes war planes pounding an

293
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,440
Arab country is the thing that is going

294
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,079
to be fed to audiences but is it going

295
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:53,079
to solve any problem I don't think it

296
00:11:50,079 --> 00:11:55,720
will no no bombing cannot uh end this

297
00:11:53,079 --> 00:11:58,839
problem indeed as you say may well be

298
00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:01,399
making it worse uh but something has to

299
00:11:58,839 --> 00:12:03,120
be done what is it that's a very

300
00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:05,639
difficult question because who do you

301
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,440
speak to who are Isis how many people

302
00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:09,320
are part of Isis it's very very

303
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,680
difficult to say we've we've heard that

304
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,800
in the part of in in less than a year

305
00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:15,760
they went from being a group of 500 to

306
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,279
some are saying 10,000 20,000 we

307
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,639
actually don't even have an accurate

308
00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:22,680
figure of how many Isis Fighters there

309
00:12:19,639 --> 00:12:24,199
are who are they who is who the Central

310
00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:25,600
Command we've heard of one figure which

311
00:12:24,199 --> 00:12:27,399
is Al badi and then we don't know

312
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,480
anything about the rest so it's really

313
00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:32,079
very difficult to tackle some sort of

314
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,160
bizarre organization organization that

315
00:12:32,079 --> 00:12:36,360
seems a death cart that seems to spread

316
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,720
everywhere that is has absolutely no

317
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,959
remorse in spreading death and and

318
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,560
killings everywhere but of course is not

319
00:12:40,959 --> 00:12:45,519
in interested in any form of negotiation

320
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:48,399
or dialogue so how do you deal with it

321
00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:51,160
I'm afraid I don't know haa if you don't

322
00:12:48,399 --> 00:12:53,639
know nobody knows and that's indeed the

323
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,880
problem coming up after the break

324
00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:59,360
reading the world with an Morgan we'll

325
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,360
be right back

326
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:13,680
welcome back to Sputnik and Morgan set

327
00:13:11,399 --> 00:13:15,880
out to read every book in the world well

328
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:18,360
not quite every book but a book from

329
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,519
every country it's safe to say at least

330
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:23,720
in this country she's definitely the

331
00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:25,720
only person who's ever done that her own

332
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,800
book about the book she read is called

333
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,680
reading the world and from where better

334
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:32,000
to view the world and it's literature

335
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:35,040
than on board the Sputnik and Morgan

336
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:38,639
welcome it is a quite beautiful bookk

337
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:42,120
you to look at and to read you went

338
00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:44,320
Around the World in 80 Days not quite 80

339
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,639
days and you didn't go around the world

340
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,920
you read them all from here what a

341
00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:50,839
wonderful idea how did it come to you

342
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,920
thank you well it came about because of

343
00:13:50,839 --> 00:13:55,560
a chance comment that someone made to me

344
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,320
that made me look at my bookshelves and

345
00:13:55,560 --> 00:14:00,160
I'd always thought of myself as a very

346
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,839
cultured uh cosmopolit sort of person

347
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,240
but when I looked at my bookshelves they

348
00:14:01,839 --> 00:14:05,639
told a rather different story in fact

349
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,600
pretty much all the books on there were

350
00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:10,279
by British or American authors and there

351
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,160
was nothing in Translation and I just

352
00:14:10,279 --> 00:14:14,519
thought why on Earth is that that's very

353
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,959
strange why would I limit myself to such

354
00:14:14,519 --> 00:14:19,720
a narrow tranch of what the world has to

355
00:14:16,959 --> 00:14:21,320
offer and the next year 2012 was going

356
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,440
to be a very International year for the

357
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,720
UK what with the Olympics and the

358
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,639
Queen's Jubilee so I thought well why

359
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,839
don't I use this as an opportunity to go

360
00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:32,279
out and meet the world through books

361
00:14:29,839 --> 00:14:34,120
it's a wonderful idea obviously no one

362
00:14:32,279 --> 00:14:36,399
else had ever thought of it lucky for

363
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,399
you uh but it reminded me of a

364
00:14:36,399 --> 00:14:40,880
conversation I had in the mountains of

365
00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:42,320
Nicaragua during the first Sandinista

366
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,360
government with one of the Guerilla

367
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,959
leaders commandante Victor terado he

368
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:51,199
said to me if I asked you to name the

369
00:14:47,959 --> 00:14:54,120
Geniuses in world history every genius

370
00:14:51,199 --> 00:14:57,160
you would name would be a European and

371
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:59,240
of course he was right British people

372
00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:02,320
have restricted themselves and been

373
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:05,680
restricted too by our education system

374
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:07,920
to the literature of Britain and North

375
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:11,199
America and not even that much of North

376
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:14,240
America uh even the European great works

377
00:15:11,199 --> 00:15:17,040
of literature are very rarely translated

378
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:19,839
and on people's shelves why do you think

379
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:22,880
that is it's a tough one I think it's

380
00:15:19,839 --> 00:15:25,120
partly um what we've been used to and

381
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,279
inevitably uh with the British Empire

382
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:30,199
going out there's been a sort of um

383
00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:32,680
history of exporting British culture the

384
00:15:30,199 --> 00:15:34,399
British uh English language which is

385
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,120
part of it English is such a widely

386
00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:39,720
spoken language around the world these

387
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:42,279
days um and so there's an imbalance um

388
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,240
for writers everywhere there's this huge

389
00:15:42,279 --> 00:15:46,399
uh Holy Grail of being published in

390
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,079
English if as a French writer you're

391
00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:50,560
published in English you suddenly have

392
00:15:48,079 --> 00:15:52,519
an incomparable reach because English is

393
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,720
not only the most published language but

394
00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:57,240
the most translated language so if you

395
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,519
get a deal in English you then have huge

396
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:02,319
uh huge uh much greater chance of being

397
00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:06,079
translated into other languages so

398
00:16:02,319 --> 00:16:08,120
there's that um and because of this this

399
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:10,279
imbalance you know a huge number of

400
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,959
texts going out of English and very few

401
00:16:10,279 --> 00:16:14,959
coming in it's very hard for that to

402
00:16:12,959 --> 00:16:18,720
change that's a very slow process at the

403
00:16:14,959 --> 00:16:20,480
moment it's only about 4.5% of uh poetry

404
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,040
drama and fiction that's published in

405
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,199
this country that is translated wow yeah

406
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,759
there are exceptions although they don't

407
00:16:25,199 --> 00:16:29,560
travel as far as I would have thought

408
00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:33,680
Gabrielle Garcia Marquez

409
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:35,319
uh author of great great works uh there

410
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,319
was a time when quite a lot of people

411
00:16:35,319 --> 00:16:41,680
were reading Solitude and other uh other

412
00:16:38,319 --> 00:16:45,399
great works but when he died recently I

413
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:47,680
tweeted uh lamentation uh of that uh

414
00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:50,720
death and a really surprising number of

415
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,319
people asked me who's he really gosh

416
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,199
that's very interesting yeah bit

417
00:16:52,319 --> 00:16:57,279
depressing yeah yeah absolutely so so

418
00:16:55,199 --> 00:16:59,680
tell us about your findings of reading

419
00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:01,920
the world well I one of the things that

420
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,720
was amazing with the project um because

421
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,959
my reading had been so narrow I knew

422
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,799
that I couldn't do it on my own I would

423
00:17:05,959 --> 00:17:10,319
have no idea what a good book to read

424
00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:13,160
from Namibia would be so my first thing

425
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:15,000
was I needed help I needed advice and so

426
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,640
I launched the project with an appeal to

427
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,120
the world's readers just saying could

428
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,480
you uh recommend what I should read and

429
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:23,600
I had no idea whether that's right just

430
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,400
online I had no idea whether anyone

431
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,400
would be interested at all it might I

432
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,559
might be on my own um doing this crazy

433
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,360
Quest and um actually what happened was

434
00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:33,840
that within hours people were getting in

435
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,559
touch and first of all it was friends

436
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,280
and then friends of friends and then

437
00:17:35,559 --> 00:17:39,720
people who came to it and I had no idea

438
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:42,080
how they'd found it and four days after

439
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,760
I launched the project with this appeal

440
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,720
I had a message from a woman named qua

441
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,360
Lumpa saying I love the sound of this

442
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,320
project I'd like to go to my local

443
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,200
English language book shop and choose

444
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,080
your Malaysian book and post it to you

445
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,559
would you let me do that and I just

446
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,559
thought amazing there's this woman more

447
00:17:54,559 --> 00:17:58,400
than 6,000 miles away doing this really

448
00:17:56,559 --> 00:18:00,159
generous thing I've got to do this

449
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,080
project now now because someone's made

450
00:18:00,159 --> 00:18:04,400
this effort and time and again

451
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,039
throughout the year book lovers all over

452
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:09,600
the planet helped which was incredible

453
00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:11,720
amazing what were the major differences

454
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,600
other major differences you see I'm one

455
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,039
of those who believes there's nothing

456
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:19,919
called English culture or French culture

457
00:18:16,039 --> 00:18:23,039
or namibian culture there's only culture

458
00:18:19,919 --> 00:18:25,440
uh were there differences major

459
00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:28,039
differences in the works that you read

460
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,400
There were in some ways um some of the

461
00:18:28,039 --> 00:18:32,440
works I read were from places where the

462
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,760
written tradition actually isn't that

463
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,440
Central so it's more about telling

464
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,200
stories orally and that in in itself was

465
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,200
a challenge because how do you record

466
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:44,240
those stories and present them so that

467
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:47,520
someone thousands of miles away can read

468
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:49,360
them um so for example in North uh West

469
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:52,200
Africa there's a very strong oral

470
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:54,159
storytelling tradition and that uh was

471
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,840
fascinating to read a book that had been

472
00:18:54,159 --> 00:18:59,159
constructed from recording one of these

473
00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,240
performances um then there were books

474
00:18:59,159 --> 00:19:04,120
that came from Tiny Pacific island

475
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:06,400
nations um like kirati which actually

476
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:08,760
featured a number of different genres so

477
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,000
you had stories but also poetry woven in

478
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,280
and artwork local artwor was woven in

479
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,520
and so the distinctions that we used to

480
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:19,799
thinking of you know fiction poetry

481
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:23,039
drama art they were actually much less

482
00:19:19,799 --> 00:19:24,559
uh distinct in those um in those texts

483
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:26,880
how many books did you read for this

484
00:19:24,559 --> 00:19:30,240
project I did well actually in the end I

485
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:33,280
did 197 so I did all un recognized

486
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:35,480
countries which is 195 plus Taiwan which

487
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,039
used to be a UN member and then as the

488
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,159
year went on I became conscious of all

489
00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:39,840
these territories that weren't

490
00:19:38,159 --> 00:19:42,320
represented on this list and even more

491
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,559
conscious of them out there and so I

492
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,159
decided to do an extra territory that

493
00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:48,280
would represent the rest of the world

494
00:19:46,159 --> 00:19:51,159
and people who visited the blog chose

495
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:54,200
that and that ended up being Kurdistan

496
00:19:51,159 --> 00:19:56,480
as well speaking about un represented or

497
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,080
not what was the did you find any

498
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,080
political propagandas with throughout

499
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,880
this literature that you were reading

500
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,480
yes well perhaps the most interesting

501
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:07,240
example was North Korea um I read a book

502
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:09,520
from North Korea now initially I thought

503
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,640
that I would get um a story by one of

504
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,640
the defectors there are a number of

505
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,440
really compelling Memoirs that have been

506
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,000
published by people who've escaped in

507
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,640
recent decades some of them lat are

508
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,039
discredited well indeed absolutely and I

509
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,559
thought initially maybe that's what I

510
00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:23,760
would do but actually I thought well

511
00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:25,840
that's not going to tell me anything

512
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,080
about what books are actually read and

513
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,559
published inside North Korea and I'd be

514
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,840
interested to know that if I can so I

515
00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:34,440
actually got in touch there's um there's

516
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,799
a guy who works for the government in

517
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,640
North Korea he's Spanish born and he um

518
00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:41,880
went there convinced them to change the

519
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,840
law so that he could work there and

520
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,600
became a North Korean Citizen and you

521
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,240
can email him his job is to build ties

522
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:52,039
with the rest of the world it's quite a

523
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:55,000
tall order really but um I

524
00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:56,679
I I emailed him and we had a discussion

525
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,200
he recommended a collection of folk

526
00:20:56,679 --> 00:21:00,360
stories which he claimed were all based

527
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,360
in his historic fact and I thought well

528
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:04,640
let's see how how far I can push this

529
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:06,240
you know um so I said well I'm

530
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,120
particularly interested in contemporary

531
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,960
adult fiction if you can recommend

532
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:12,200
anything and he came back with a really

533
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,679
interesting reply he said no fiction has

534
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,799
been published in the whole history of

535
00:21:13,679 --> 00:21:17,919
North Korea there is no such thing um

536
00:21:16,799 --> 00:21:19,360
and I thought well this is strange

537
00:21:17,919 --> 00:21:21,120
because I happen to know there are some

538
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,919
short stories some what we would call

539
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:25,080
fiction that have been published in an

540
00:21:22,919 --> 00:21:26,440
anthology so I went back to him and I

541
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,720
said perhaps we don't mean the same

542
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,760
thing by fiction maybe you understand it

543
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,240
fabrication and actually I'm talking

544
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,559
about these stories like by these

545
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,559
writers anyway at that point Kim jongil

546
00:21:35,559 --> 00:21:40,039
died and so it was a very convenient

547
00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:42,039
point for him to end the

548
00:21:40,039 --> 00:21:43,520
conversation however I actually ended up

549
00:21:42,039 --> 00:21:45,640
reading a memoir that someone else

550
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,039
recommended to me by that had been

551
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,720
published in pongyang and it was by a

552
00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:51,480
war correspondent who'd been imprisoned

553
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,159
in South Korea for 30 years and then

554
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,240
went back to the country and um of

555
00:21:54,159 --> 00:21:58,320
course I had no way of knowing what had

556
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,080
been done to it who had edited it how

557
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,679
much

558
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,000
propaganda and that's true that's true

559
00:22:01,679 --> 00:22:06,440
of every country the line between fact

560
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,840
and fiction Even in our own government

561
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,520
is sometimes blurred yeah I've only time

562
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:14,799
for one more question it's this she for

563
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:18,720
examples from Indonesia which is 20,000

564
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:21,919
Islands yes 20,000 Islands now just one

565
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,720
Island Java has an East and a west of

566
00:22:21,919 --> 00:22:25,400
course it has a North and the South too

567
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,720
but the culture in the East is very

568
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,440
different from the West how did you deal

569
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:33,279
with that problem that some countries

570
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:36,720
are so vast that there must be entirely

571
00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:38,679
different uh cultural output in one part

572
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,039
rather than another absolutely this

573
00:22:38,679 --> 00:22:42,919
subject for a second book well perhaps

574
00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:44,679
yeah well I I think that was something I

575
00:22:42,919 --> 00:22:46,440
was really conscious of a lot of people

576
00:22:44,679 --> 00:22:48,159
when they heard about my project said oh

577
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,960
you must be finding the definitive book

578
00:22:48,159 --> 00:22:52,120
from each country and I said well no

579
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,760
because one book can't stand for a

580
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:55,400
country I would be annoyed if someone

581
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,039
thought they would choose the definitive

582
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,919
British novel so why should I say that I

583
00:22:58,039 --> 00:23:01,600
can do that for anywhere else India was

584
00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:04,000
perhaps the toughest example of that

585
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,200
because you know a nation of 1.2 billion

586
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,159
plus people and so many different

587
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:12,480
cultures and traditions um and actually

588
00:23:09,159 --> 00:23:13,840
I ended up uh a an Indian journalist

589
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,200
saved me actually because I was really

590
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,159
struggling with what to choose from

591
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,159
India and she came to the blog and she

592
00:23:17,159 --> 00:23:19,640
said well I notice all the

593
00:23:18,159 --> 00:23:22,559
recommendations that people have made

594
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:24,600
have been for English language works but

595
00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:27,000
actually to me that's second best we've

596
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,279
got 22 other official languages here and

597
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,200
amazing literature in those so one of my

598
00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:33,640
favorite writers is um a writer who

599
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,320
writes in malayum a writer called Mt the

600
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,919
seed of anir and I think you should try

601
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:40,400
and find a translation of something by

602
00:23:36,919 --> 00:23:42,520
him so I did but as I say one book can't

603
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,679
stand for a whole country well no but

604
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,159
your book stands for something really

605
00:23:44,679 --> 00:23:51,200
important it's a very very beautiful

606
00:23:47,159 --> 00:23:54,720
word reading the world and Morgan thanks

607
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,720
very much for coming on board the

608
00:23:55,799 --> 00:24:00,279
Sputnik and now it's your turn to tell

609
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:03,039
us what you think through the portals of

610
00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:05,720
social media what's rling gri well you

611
00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:07,880
recall that picture of Isis driving down

612
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,400
in a convoy waving their Flags you know

613
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,279
in the Jeep with with very special

614
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,480
vehicles yeah Michael boy makes the

615
00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:16,080
point serious question is is Isis

616
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,840
sponsored by Toyota or what because if

617
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,679
that's not product placement I don't

618
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,400
know what it is every picture in video

619
00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:22,240
comes out and there's a fleet of brand

620
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,720
new

621
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,440
Toyotas well there's no mystery and I'm

622
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,919
afraid there's no conspiracy they stole

623
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,320
them they stole them from the Iraqi

624
00:24:28,919 --> 00:24:33,799
Armed Forces which collapsed and ran

625
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,120
away leaving all their material behind

626
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:39,320
them and their weapons and hundreds of

627
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:41,279
millions of dollars in the banks uh they

628
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,799
are not short of money they can buy

629
00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:46,799
anything that they want uh not least

630
00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:50,360
from the looted uh Banks uh but they

631
00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:53,360
stole all the crack modern material from

632
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:56,799
the Iraqi Army which had been sold at

633
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:59,880
Great profit uh to them by Western

634
00:24:56,799 --> 00:25:02,600
companies and Toyota Japanese companies

635
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:04,679
and uh so on and in Syria they simply

636
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,960
took everything that Western countries

637
00:25:04,679 --> 00:25:09,279
delivered to the so-called moderate

638
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,520
opposition soon as it arrived they went

639
00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:14,159
in with their guns and emptied the

640
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:17,480
warehouses so Toyota are not sponsoring

641
00:25:14,159 --> 00:25:19,440
them neither directly are the Western

642
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,880
governments sponsoring them but they are

643
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:26,000
the beneficiaries of both and Raa D says

644
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:28,480
this is democracy made in NATO well you

645
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,760
can't make democracy in NATO and and you

646
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,919
certainly can't drop it in a bomb that

647
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,600
much we ought to be clear of uh now well

648
00:25:33,919 --> 00:25:37,240
that's all that we've got for this week

649
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,919
which alas means that's the end of the

650
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,720
show you can stay in touch with us on

651
00:25:38,919 --> 00:25:43,559
Twitter at rtor Sputnik or Facebook

652
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,840
Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye

653
00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:49,200
from me gri and from me George Galloway

654
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,200
it's been marvelous

655
00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:55,799
[Music]

656
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,480
oh