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[Music]

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I

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welcome to a special edition of Sputnik

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from our Westminster Studios but still

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orbiting the world with me George

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Galloway and me gatri the chil Cott jury

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is in the verdict is guiltiest charged

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so when does the punishment begin

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because if there is no punishment for

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blunders many would say crimes of this

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magnitude which have caused the life

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lives of 1 million people and Counting

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how can we claim to live in a land where

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justice prevails and if there is no

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punishment why would our rulers not do

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the same things all over again Dr camel

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Mii hated the way things were in Iraq

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before the bush and Blair War he was an

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Iraqi dissident in Exile even in danger

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from the Iraqi regime but as the US and

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British forces began to threaten his

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homeland he opposed the war with at

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least as much passion as the rest of us

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and I'm glad to say after a brief

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interlude of 10 years or more not only

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is he still standing but Dr camel joins

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me now uh Dr it was practically the only

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Blair defense that at least things are

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better in Iraq now with Saddam Hussein

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gone what would you say to that well uh

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things for people in Iraq now are

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certainly not better uh than they were

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before that's not to say that people

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wanted the regime to stay people did not

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want we did not want to pay this huge

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cost for getting rid of the regime

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without any Prospect of a better life uh

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in the future and with and with losing

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more and more control over their lives

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uh with the danger that the country is

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being split apart by uh by by conflicts

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that are managed and controlled from

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outside that is the reality of of uh

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Iraq today after the loss of a million

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uh people there is no uh de no democracy

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as anybody would understand it uh today

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in Iraq there is a mixture of money

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politics and guns uh in in a situation

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that is uh uh never ending as it

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seems uh people uh want to pick up uh

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their lives want to move on they don't

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want to go back to the regime uh that

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there was they don't want the

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dictatorship uh that existed uh then but

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they look at what happened and they look

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at

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uh what the occupation and the war has

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done uh to Iraq and they say well this

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is not what we wanted well there was

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corruption in Iraq before now there's

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much more corruption there was violence

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in Iraq before now there is

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fantastically more violence and Iraq was

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divided before with the Kurdish area

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being out of the control of the central

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government in Baghdad but now Iraq is at

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least three countries and as you say

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other powers from outside are acting

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constantly to exacerbate this violence

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is this all seen quite clearly across

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all the communities in Iraq or has the

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sectarian divide aifi

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permanently I don't think it's oied

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permanently I think it's seen by people

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in Iraq it's seen as as as it is now uh

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there is fear there is uh worry about

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how to get out of this situation uh

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there's

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uncertainty uh but people do not want

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the breakup of Iraq uh understandably uh

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the uh Kurdish people want to look

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forward to uh a form of national

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self-determination which is uh uh the

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right which most people have uh in Iraq

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have have accepted for a very long time

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and the and people have struggled

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together Arabs and Kurds have struggled

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together for uh democracy in Iraq and

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for the national rights of the uh

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Kurdish people but to create a division

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between Arabs and Kurds uh to put them

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opposed to each other as has happened

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now uh is not what people want either

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Arabs or Kurds Arabs and Kurds do not

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want to be in constant what about the

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division between Arab and Arab the

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division the sectarian division is

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clearly uh not among the People by and

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large it's not among the people the

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sectarian division that exists now is

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among the political clicks uh that are

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and and people talk about a a a a a

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sectarian government now what we have is

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a sectarian system a system that's based

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on uh identifying people only as sects

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and as ethnic groups uh not identifying

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people as as uh uh individuals members

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of a uh of a national Community uh in

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this way so this is the uh the the cause

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of the uh division within uh the

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communities between sunnis and shis as

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exists now people don't want it people

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reject it and uh but they have to deal

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with the uh with those who carry the

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guns and attack uh others on on uh the

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basis of their uh sectarian or religious

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identity uh and uh these criminals would

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attack anybody they'd attack their own

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community and they attacked other

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communities as well so this is where

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where would you blame for all this I

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certainly I certainly blame the

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occupation primarily

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for uh because occupation did not uh uh

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came in with a view of destroying the

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state uh in Iraq and the state is not

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Saddam Hussein the state is anything to

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do with public services with security

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with uh with a sense of national

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identity in there and that is what what

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what the occupation set out to do it

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want

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to break the country so that the country

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can be easily controlled and and the

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resources of the country can be grabbed

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by by the cor the corporations that are

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are coming behind the occupation so what

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did you feel when you heard Sir John

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chilot well what I felt was this is uh

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there's nothing that we didn't say

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before there's nothing that you didn't

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say George before that there's nothing

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that that most of us uh hadn't said this

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war was based on a lie The Establishment

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itself is saying what the people have

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said uh throughout but what I also say

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is what what what does chilot not

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say why was the war carried out we know

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it was carried out on on the basis of a

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lie but why did they lie uh to do that

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what was their aim what who was behind

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it who was pushing for that war it

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wasn't only the US

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neocons Blair wasn't on his own in this

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he was he was leading and he was pushing

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and he he carried uh he carried the can

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for others as well uh in this and uh

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what does it say about uh the politics

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in this country and politics elsewhere

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in the world so do you think it's not

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daming

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enough uh I think it certainly

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very dumbing I mean to carry to to take

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the world not just Britain the world to

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a war uh on a lie on false pretenses to

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cause the the the death of a of a of of

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uh up to a million people uh in there uh

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and uh to destroy a country and to

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destabilize the whole of the region this

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is this is uh This was done on on the on

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the basis of a lie so this is daming

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enough yeah but they didn't call him

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obviously coming from they didn't call

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him as such now you're an Iraqi uh

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citizen here in Britain so you obviously

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like us was anticipating to this report

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and glued to the television to hear uh

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Sir John chilot um presented was it as

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much anticipated in Iraq is it how is it

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received in Iraq

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itself well um I I don't think so I

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think in Iraq people are are

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looking uh to their daily lives to their

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harsh uh daily lives I've seen a lot of

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people now saying if this was if this is

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the uh verdict of of uh uh the British

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establishment then what is the right of

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Iraqis in this yes we want Tony Blair

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tried but when Iraq occupied Kuwait in

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1990 for 6 months with much less damage

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than there has been now Iraq uh paid

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reparations was made many billions in

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over 50 billions and it's still

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malnourished Iraqi children today are

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paying reparations for the occupation of

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Kuwait by Saddam Hussein 26 years ago

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now who is going to pay reparations and

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when is Iraq going to get reparations

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for all the damage that's been done to

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it this is what people in Iraq uh have

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been saying for a long time and I'm not

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sure they they uh uh look very much to

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the chilot report for for for justice in

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this uh regard but uh well we have to

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fight for that so like Ian Hislop says

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it's just the British soul searching

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yes doctor you know I think uh how much

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I loved Iraq how it entered my blood

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how even now when I hear the word Iraq I

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turn around as if somebody called my

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name it's heartbreaking for me to recall

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it all now as I sit here with you again

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is there any hope for Iraq will there

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ever be one Iraq

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again uh I believe so I mean I I I

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believe so I think the main thing is the

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uncertainty that we all have most of all

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is uh over the uh future of uh the

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relationship between the Kurdish region

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and the rest of

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Iraq uh I don't think there's

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anybody uh who who who cares about

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people in there who wants to divide

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Iraq uh there are of course Thugs and

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criminals and there are political

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entrepreneurs who are who are are now

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making a killing out of uh a financial

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killing out of killing people these are

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these are the ones who want to keep Iraq

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uh semi- divided or even divided they

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don't quite want to divide it because

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they they they they just want people in

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a in a In Perpetual conflict now these

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people uh the majority of people don't

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see uh uh two Iraq's uh in this they see

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they see it as a problem as a as an

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issue of of how to create a system that

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works fairly for all Dr kaml let's hope

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so thank you very much for joining us on

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the Sputnik thank

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you she was the leader of the anti-war

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movement in Britain from its Inception

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until now she's lindsy German and she's

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up next stay

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tuned

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[Music]

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welcome back to Sputnik the stop the war

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Coalition had many leading figures

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including both Tony Ben and Jeremy

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Corbin but there has been one constant a

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human Dynamo the one and only convenor

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of the stop the war Coalition Lindsay

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German who joins us now Lindsay thanks

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for coming on the Sputnik I want to talk

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to you mainly about

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Britain Dr camel Madie asked a question

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to which I don't have the answer why we

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know that they lied we know what they've

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done but why did they do it well I think

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if you look at it you have to look at

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Britain's place in the world and

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Britain's role uh economically and

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militarily over the last 50 or so years

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thiz was a turning point when it was

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clear that Britain didn't have the power

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that it used to have with its Empire

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since then it's been determined to have

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a special relationship with the United

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States I think if you look at the reason

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why Blair was so ke to hang on to Bush

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was to maintain this special

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relationship which is of course has been

273
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a complete disaster he wouldn't listen

274
00:14:36,199 --> 00:14:41,600
to anybody I mean everybody from the

275
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:43,120
pope to the 2 million people who marched

276
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,160
he wouldn't listen to any of those

277
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,759
people about why it was wrong all the

278
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,880
experts that we know that have now many

279
00:14:47,759 --> 00:14:51,519
of them have been in the chilcott report

280
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,320
of given evidence and so on he didn't

281
00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:58,320
listen to a single person why partly his

282
00:14:54,320 --> 00:15:00,199
own you know obsession with himself but

283
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,399
I think mainly if you look at the wider

284
00:15:00,199 --> 00:15:04,000
questions this this relationship with

285
00:15:02,399 --> 00:15:06,639
the US and it's one of the important

286
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,759
things I think for us that we try to

287
00:15:06,639 --> 00:15:10,320
break that relationship in foreign

288
00:15:08,759 --> 00:15:13,360
policy because it's fantastically

289
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:15,639
damaging you're right to say that uh the

290
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:18,440
witnesses from The Establishment in

291
00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:20,320
chilot are damning but they would have

292
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:23,199
been much more effective if they had

293
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:26,360
openly opposed what Blair was planning

294
00:15:23,199 --> 00:15:28,920
at the time we now know the entire legal

295
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:31,480
team of the foreign office all almost

296
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:34,519
all of our ambassadors in the

297
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:37,440
region uh we now know that the MI5

298
00:15:34,519 --> 00:15:40,319
director Dame Eliza Manningham Buller an

299
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:43,639
unlikely hero of the anti-war movement

300
00:15:40,319 --> 00:15:45,360
uh were warning and so on why did the

301
00:15:43,639 --> 00:15:49,680
state I mean you're a

302
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:53,199
constitutional uh scholar and a a lawyer

303
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:55,560
uh why didn't the checks and balances

304
00:15:53,199 --> 00:15:58,759
the separation of powers and so on why

305
00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,240
didn't that kick in to stop what was a

306
00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:03,199
dangerously

307
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,519
delusional uh and self-destructive path

308
00:16:03,199 --> 00:16:06,720
well I think this is one of the big

309
00:16:04,519 --> 00:16:08,639
questions which now the anti-war

310
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,839
movement those of us on the left

311
00:16:08,639 --> 00:16:13,440
generally and indeed Parliament have to

312
00:16:10,839 --> 00:16:15,839
now answer because there is supposed to

313
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,360
be a sense of which civil servants in

314
00:16:15,839 --> 00:16:20,160
which um the intelligence services in

315
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,240
which all these people are supposed to

316
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,279
be in a certain sense independent of

317
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:27,040
government now we know that that has

318
00:16:24,279 --> 00:16:28,920
never been the case but it's also true

319
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,720
that this time Blair co-opted these

320
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,480
people or or corrupted sections of them

321
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,160
to do exactly what he wanted and you

322
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,279
know if you remember you were in

323
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:40,240
Parliament at the time if you remember

324
00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:42,680
the days running up to the vote when

325
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,839
many many labor MPS rebelled against

326
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,839
including yourself at the time rebelled

327
00:16:44,839 --> 00:16:51,000
against the the going to war in Iraq

328
00:16:47,839 --> 00:16:53,000
they had everybody in there bullying

329
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,440
them cajoling them promising them all

330
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,519
sorts of things in order to get them to

331
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,160
do it it was a complete breakdown of

332
00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:00,639
normal Democratic process I think it's

333
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,199
one of the reasons now that people are

334
00:17:00,639 --> 00:17:05,640
so cynical about politicians they're so

335
00:17:03,199 --> 00:17:08,079
skeptical they'll be even more cynical

336
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,679
if nothing now happens to Tony Blair if

337
00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:13,959
there is no outcome from chil cot which

338
00:17:10,679 --> 00:17:15,679
to me it doesn't tell us anything well

339
00:17:13,959 --> 00:17:17,959
it will tell us some new things but

340
00:17:15,679 --> 00:17:20,439
doesn't tell us anything in general

341
00:17:17,959 --> 00:17:22,600
that's right I I just reread War and

342
00:17:20,439 --> 00:17:25,319
Peace and this is four times as long and

343
00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,199
not written by Tolstoy so kind of yes

344
00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:29,320
I'm not sure most of us will ever read

345
00:17:27,199 --> 00:17:31,960
it we said it would create the chaos

346
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,919
that it has created we didn't predict

347
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,480
actually how bad the chaos would be and

348
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:39,880
I think Cal explained that you know that

349
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:42,120
how how devastating life for Iraqis is

350
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:45,960
today but we did predict the general

351
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:49,000
things and yet Parliament and government

352
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,600
was completely troduced in order to

353
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,039
achieve Blair's will was a breakdown I

354
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:57,240
think that's a good word you used there

355
00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:59,360
was a breakdown even of Bourgeois

356
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,600
capitalist Democrat

357
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,000
Britain it was a breakdown was in a in a

358
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:06,120
way a kind

359
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:09,360
of dictatorship suddenly emerged a kind

360
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:12,799
of bonapart uh emerged but maybe that's

361
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:14,880
for another day um it's a it's a good

362
00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:16,600
analogy though that there's this kind of

363
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,000
sense in which you know everybody's

364
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,520
drawn behind it and of course we

365
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:24,640
shouldn't forget the role of people like

366
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:27,200
the BBC BBC BBC told their employees not

367
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,159
to go on the demonstrations 2 million

368
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,480
people marched they were told they

369
00:18:29,159 --> 00:18:31,880
couldn't go on the demonstrations cuz

370
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,159
they're supposed to be impartial and

371
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,360
you'll recall that the head of news sent

372
00:18:34,159 --> 00:18:40,559
out a memo saying that uh there

373
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:43,120
shouldn't be too many extreme anti-war

374
00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:45,000
voices well that's you and me I think

375
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:47,080
they're still like that they still like

376
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:50,039
that that was exactly the issue I wanted

377
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:52,720
to turn to now uh there's no

378
00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:54,679
introspection on the part of the media

379
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:58,320
about all this they have turned on Tony

380
00:18:54,679 --> 00:19:00,679
Blair with absolute Venom me the front

381
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,080
Pages the day after chilot were a sight

382
00:19:00,679 --> 00:19:06,000
to behold was like was a great

383
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:09,559
collection great headlines but there's

384
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,559
no trace of introspection that they were

385
00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:15,280
a part of this the so-called fourth

386
00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:19,400
estate were equally suborned and coopted

387
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:22,600
by this uh this phenomenon of Tony Blair

388
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:28,679
and and worse than that they have

389
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:32,799
continued with the same uh disregard of

390
00:19:28,679 --> 00:19:35,159
uh truth and fact to March us into war

391
00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:37,280
after War I mean you might have thought

392
00:19:35,159 --> 00:19:39,320
that after the Iraq War you could have

393
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,760
gone back to your your studies and your

394
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,520
academic life but you haven't been

395
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,360
you've had to lead the opposition to war

396
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,159
after war after War that's right that's

397
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:49,919
right and they are doing it again we've

398
00:19:47,159 --> 00:19:53,840
just been told that there's 600 British

399
00:19:49,919 --> 00:19:55,760
troops going to the Baltic states to

400
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,520
defend the Baltic states against Russia

401
00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:01,240
which I mean leaving aside the

402
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:02,679
ludicrousness of that Prospect but the

403
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,200
whole thing there's troops going there

404
00:20:02,679 --> 00:20:07,080
there's troops going to Libya there's

405
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,960
special forces already in Syria and more

406
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,440
troops going to Iraq this is all going

407
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:14,360
on all the

408
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:17,720
time and yet and yet

409
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:19,159
the accountability issue still hasn't

410
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,120
been dealt with it isn't dealt with in

411
00:20:19,159 --> 00:20:22,720
chil Cott indeed to some extent you

412
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,840
could say chil Cott has written in a way

413
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:28,480
that it's going to make it more

414
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:32,440
difficult for accountability to happen

415
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:36,320
they kind of want us to cluck cluck

416
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:38,520
condemn a small click and move on what

417
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,320
happens next now well I think the

418
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,919
broader base especially yeah that's

419
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,000
right well I think a lot of it actually

420
00:20:41,919 --> 00:20:46,799
hangs on what happens to Jeremy Corbin

421
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,559
because Jeremy Corbin has become leader

422
00:20:46,799 --> 00:20:51,640
of the laboral party against I think any

423
00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:54,559
of our expectations including his own

424
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,240
but is in this position it's clear the

425
00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:58,320
thing that they really don't like about

426
00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,760
Jeremy Corbin is his attitude toward WS

427
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,039
foreign policy and that is a thing that

428
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,640
I think they are now that's why they're

429
00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:06,000
so desperate to get rid of him they

430
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,799
wanted to get rid of him before

431
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,799
Wednesday they didn't succeed but they

432
00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:13,400
will still try it there's a trident vote

433
00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:16,279
looks like is coming up in the next week

434
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:18,840
um so I think a lot of it depends can we

435
00:21:16,279 --> 00:21:20,520
say that there are politicians who will

436
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,640
stand up for the truth and who will

437
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:25,480
stand up for justice I also think we

438
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,200
have to follow any line that we can to

439
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,039
hold Blair particularly to account

440
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,600
impeachment which some people are

441
00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:32,799
putting forward I think is certainly

442
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,960
worth trying that the idea of a trial in

443
00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:38,640
the House of Commons which you know it's

444
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:40,320
an archaic thing but we need special

445
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,039
measures it might be the only thing that

446
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,240
we can get it's difficult to have a

447
00:21:42,039 --> 00:21:47,799
legal outcome but the families are

448
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:50,440
certainly considering suing Blair and I

449
00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:52,480
would certainly give all my support to

450
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,159
doing that he probably settle that out

451
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,679
of course I mean he does have a lot of

452
00:21:54,159 --> 00:21:59,120
money he to we've got a film coming out

453
00:21:56,679 --> 00:22:00,760
very soon uh in which we describe just

454
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,919
how much money he's got and where he got

455
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,799
it so there's a big pocket there that

456
00:22:02,919 --> 00:22:07,520
the families can sue for damages

457
00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:09,960
definitely and misuse of public office

458
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,840
and so on I think the impeachment is the

459
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,679
key for us because the IC I don't think

460
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,679
though we must demand it are going to

461
00:22:14,679 --> 00:22:19,080
put him on trial in the he he's not

462
00:22:16,679 --> 00:22:21,840
black enough but that's right he's not

463
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,880
afan he's not afrian that's right so you

464
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,120
know the real the real villains of the

465
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:29,080
world are free from all of this stuff

466
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:31,559
exactly but the impeachment

467
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:34,559
requires him to be brought to the bar of

468
00:22:31,559 --> 00:22:37,279
the house under manners by the sergeant

469
00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:40,080
arms and black Rod who's never Black by

470
00:22:37,279 --> 00:22:41,760
the way of course uh and he has to stand

471
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:45,480
there at the bar of the house and he has

472
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:48,600
to hear uh and then the MPS have got to

473
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:51,679
decide who wants to go down in history

474
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,919
going into the lobby to vote against the

475
00:22:51,679 --> 00:22:57,600
impeachment of Tony Blair who's just

476
00:22:53,919 --> 00:22:59,600
been so uh so dramatically uh brought

477
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,360
down this is probably your next film

478
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,600
George actually when you when you think

479
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:05,320
about it the other thing I think we

480
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,559
ought to think about is having him

481
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,000
barred from public office because I

482
00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:13,000
don't know what the possibilities and

483
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,559
mechanisms are for that but surely you

484
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,559
know he was talking last week he could

485
00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:20,480
help negotiate brexit well whichever way

486
00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:23,320
you voted over it why would anybody

487
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,440
think that was a good idea you know it's

488
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,400
just so I think that is something Orel

489
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,919
from the labor partel from the labor

490
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,000
party because people are suspended and

491
00:23:29,919 --> 00:23:35,640
expelled for far far less than starting

492
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:39,440
War yeah yeah that's right as George

493
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:41,400
knows to only too well uh do you ever

494
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,240
and you know you and I have now

495
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:46,600
been uh marching together and talking

496
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:49,080
together for all these years do you ever

497
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,840
pinch yourself and and ask yourself was

498
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,200
all this just a nightmare I mean to be

499
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,640
honest it kind of came out of nothing

500
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,520
for me I was bowling along as a

501
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,640
left-wing labor MP

502
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:04,200
but within certain bounds and parameters

503
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:06,720
you were a leading figure in socialist

504
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:09,039
uh politics but we we could never have

505
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,679
imagined that could we that we' be

506
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,400
thrust into the middle of all of this it

507
00:24:10,679 --> 00:24:14,640
changed my life I mean it changed my

508
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,919
life in all sorts of ways and I think

509
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,200
you know it's something that you

510
00:24:15,919 --> 00:24:21,200
suddenly get where things change

511
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,440
dramatically in society and in politics

512
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,240
and you have to respond to that and

513
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,200
we're now in another period of this that

514
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,279
this is the latest bombshell I mean

515
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,279
there's obviously the whole question of

516
00:24:28,279 --> 00:24:32,799
leaving the EU which has opened up a

517
00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:34,880
huge political crisis again and it's

518
00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:36,679
very important for us I think that those

519
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,159
of us on the left fight for an outcome

520
00:24:36,679 --> 00:24:41,520
which isn't about narrow nationalism

521
00:24:39,159 --> 00:24:42,919
isn't about restricting the rights of

522
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,520
people from other parts of the world

523
00:24:42,919 --> 00:24:47,080
isn't about all those sorts of things

524
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,159
but these are big big days I mean it was

525
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,919
Lenin I think who said you know there's

526
00:24:49,159 --> 00:24:52,960
weeks where decades happen which I think

527
00:24:50,919 --> 00:24:55,000
we've used at various times I'm sure

528
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,440
I've heard you say that and it's never

529
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,159
been more true in my lifetime this is a

530
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:02,039
very very big crisis and you think the

531
00:24:59,159 --> 00:25:04,320
last one was the second world war really

532
00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:07,120
and out of that came the left-wing labor

533
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,480
government which nationalized all the

534
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:11,000
industry and created the Health Service

535
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,720
and did all those sorts of things we

536
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,080
need something on this scale again that

537
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,000
is the truth and that's why they don't

538
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:19,159
like Jeremy Corbin by the way because

539
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,760
any suggestion of this terrifies them I

540
00:25:19,159 --> 00:25:22,720
did tell them you were a Dynamo lindsy

541
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,480
German thanks for joining us on the

542
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:28,039
Sputnik alas that's all we've got time

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for but you can stay in touch with us

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through social media Twitter rtor

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Sputnik or Facebook Sputnik on Russia

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today it's goodbye from me gri and from

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me George Galloway it's been

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[Music]

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marvelous