1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:06,710 [Music] 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:18,080 [Music] 3 00:00:13,879 --> 00:00:18,080 okay I get 4 00:00:19,790 --> 00:00:23,969 [Music] 5 00:00:26,070 --> 00:00:35,259 [Music] 6 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:41,480 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 7 00:00:38,559 --> 00:00:43,600 with me George Galloway and me gatri 8 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:46,640 picture of the week surely was the sight 9 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:49,399 of the Middle East peace Envoy Tony BL 10 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:52,440 at Ariel chiron's funeral emoting like 11 00:00:49,399 --> 00:00:54,120 he did that morning when Diana died I 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,800 was sure he was going to so at any 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:01:00,960 moment shaon was the people's butcher 14 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:03,600 warmly embracing shon's son G lad the 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,920 son that is not the two-ton Burger King 16 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,240 who is on record as saying that Gaza and 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,720 presumably it's nearly 2 million 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:13,560 inhabitants should be flattened like 19 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,479 Hiroshima with a nuclear bomb Blair 20 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,479 seems utterly oblivious to the way he's 21 00:01:15,479 --> 00:01:21,000 viewed by the 350 million Arabs in the 22 00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:23,600 Middle East or maybe he just doesn't 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:27,200 care well to Tony Blair Ariel Chiron was 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:29,640 bold unorthodox unyielding to many if 25 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,680 not most in the Middle East Ariel Sheron 26 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:36,040 was the The Butcher of perut for his 27 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:38,399 role in the 1982 Massacre of up to 3,500 28 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:41,560 Palestinians in the shabra and chatila 29 00:01:38,399 --> 00:01:43,399 refugee camps I was in Beirut in 1982 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,000 when the Israeli Defense Force invaded 31 00:01:43,399 --> 00:01:48,000 Lebanon on mass I just made it out of 32 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,240 the country ahead of the phosphorus 33 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,960 bombs and the tanks I returned 34 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,360 immediately after they were forced to 35 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,399 withdraw by the Lebanese resistance and 36 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,399 went to the two camps that had once been 37 00:01:56,399 --> 00:02:02,320 my home Sabra and shatila some of the 38 00:01:59,399 --> 00:02:04,840 Dead remain AED unburied the stench was 39 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:08,200 unmistakable the camps were full of 40 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,920 wandering wailing women children and old 41 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,959 men against the Butcher of perut the 42 00:02:10,920 --> 00:02:15,080 women children and old men in the camps 43 00:02:12,959 --> 00:02:17,319 had of course been defenseless for the 44 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:20,319 Palestinian Fighters had all sealed away 45 00:02:17,319 --> 00:02:22,680 to a new Exile in Far Away Tunisia they 46 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:24,239 did so under a United States guarantee 47 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,599 signed by President Reagan's 48 00:02:24,239 --> 00:02:28,720 representative Philip khabib that their 49 00:02:26,599 --> 00:02:30,160 families would not be harmed once they 50 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,640 were no longer there to protect protect 51 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,280 them but before the ink on the promise 52 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:38,040 was dry their fam's blood was running in 53 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,360 the open sewers of the camp Ariel Shon 54 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,280 stood throughout the night of the 55 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,040 massacre on the roof of the Kuwaiti 56 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:46,080 Embassy on the perimeter of the camp 57 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,680 directing the giant search lights and 58 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:51,280 incendiary flares which turned the night 59 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,480 into day and illuminated the HS of the 60 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,080 camp the better for the falangist 61 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:59,200 militia men to go house to house with 62 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,920 their knives bayonets and swords even 63 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,920 the Israeli government of the former 64 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:05,560 terrorist leader prime minister mahim 65 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:07,799 beIN was forced to set up an inquiry the 66 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,760 Kahan commission which concluded with 67 00:03:07,799 --> 00:03:12,720 sheron's responsibility and his 68 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,640 dismissal and banning from public office 69 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,920 none of this narrative made it into the 70 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:19,239 eulogies of Blair and Co so we're 71 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:22,040 devoting this episode of Sputnik to 72 00:03:19,239 --> 00:03:24,560 remembering the real Ariel Chiron 73 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:27,120 joining us now is a very great Israeli 74 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,879 the antithesis of Ariel shaon the 75 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,159 deceased Israeli Premier was known as 76 00:03:28,879 --> 00:03:35,000 the bulldozer casting away Stones Jeff 77 00:03:32,159 --> 00:03:36,760 Halper gathers Stones together whilst 78 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,560 Israeli Prime Ministers bulldo 79 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:42,120 Palestinian homes Jeff rebuilds them as 80 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:44,200 an act of resistance he's the founder of 81 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,920 the Israeli Committee Against house 82 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:49,200 demolitions he organizes mobilizes 83 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:52,120 fundraisers all over the world for this 84 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:55,079 Noble purpose nonviolent direct action 85 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:57,159 and Civil Disobedience are his tools and 86 00:03:55,079 --> 00:03:59,760 he spoiled many a good day out for the 87 00:03:57,159 --> 00:04:02,760 bulldozers he was once nominated in 20 88 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:05,000 06 for the Nobel Peace Prize but it 89 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:08,040 turned out he hadn't started enough Wars 90 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:10,000 to win it our prize is to have him here 91 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,000 Jeff harer it's an honor to have you 92 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:15,720 here on the Sputnik till us first of all 93 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:20,560 as an American Israeli 94 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:24,400 1973 uh you've been in Israel since how 95 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,960 did the death of shaon impact on you it 96 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,400 had a very little impact I mean he 97 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,240 really died eight years ago you know I 98 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,759 think there's been a big distance 99 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:36,680 he kind of faded the death was kind of 100 00:04:32,759 --> 00:04:38,600 anticlimactic but I think it marked um 101 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:41,520 a you know 102 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,960 it it didn't mark an end of an era in 103 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,360 fact in fact I would say that Chiron is 104 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:49,080 has been Vindicated to some degree by 105 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:52,080 Netanyahu because the the the the 106 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:54,600 exclusive militaristic way in which he 107 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,240 approached things I think is something 108 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,520 that's just that's just rooted in 109 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,840 Israeli policy the only way it knows how 110 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,919 to react is is is 111 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:06,280 militarily let me say one thing about 112 00:05:02,919 --> 00:05:09,759 Chiron though he was a big thinker the 113 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:12,520 whole idea of the Lebanon war was to 114 00:05:09,759 --> 00:05:14,560 overthrow Hussein move the PLO into 115 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:17,280 Jordan have Jordan be the Palestinian 116 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:19,240 State and then that relieves Israel of 117 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:20,600 the pressures to give up the occupation 118 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,280 because here there is a Palestinian 119 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,520 state in Jordan that was always his his 120 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:27,199 Mantra I think what happened here was 121 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,960 interesting with Chiron though there's 122 00:05:27,199 --> 00:05:31,880 one thing that people haven't haven't 123 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:34,759 looked at and that is why did he leave 124 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:37,280 Gaza and and actually there's in the in 125 00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:38,440 har newspaper the Israeli newspaper you 126 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:40,720 know there's reports that he was 127 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:44,880 considering further withdrawals from the 128 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:46,720 West Bank I think that he in the very 129 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,120 beginning rejected what was called the 130 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:52,880 Arab peace initiative of 2002 where the 131 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:57,039 entire Arab League it formulated by 132 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:59,280 Saudi Arabia yeah H said to Israel if 133 00:05:57,039 --> 00:06:00,759 you give up your occupation we will not 134 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:03,520 only make make peace with you will 135 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:06,360 integrate you into the region and Israel 136 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:09,000 rejected it and uh didn't even relate to 137 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:11,319 it but I think Chiron got it I think 138 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,360 after a year or two he began to see that 139 00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:18,919 the subtext was these conservative Arab 140 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:21,759 regimes are really asking Israel to be 141 00:06:18,919 --> 00:06:23,520 the regional hedgemon they want Israel 142 00:06:21,759 --> 00:06:25,120 to kind of take over the Middle East I 143 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,639 mean there's if you take away the 144 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:30,000 occupation there's a tremendous 145 00:06:27,639 --> 00:06:31,479 similarity in foreign and domestic 146 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,319 interest between these conservative 147 00:06:31,479 --> 00:06:36,080 regimes in Israel they're on the same 148 00:06:33,319 --> 00:06:39,400 page especially against Iran and he was 149 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:41,800 in the process of I think getting out of 150 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,160 a lot of the occupied territories 151 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:46,120 because even the Arab regime said look 152 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,080 we have public opinion on our streets we 153 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:51,120 can't normalize with you as long as 154 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:53,160 there's occupation get rid of most of it 155 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,280 I think he thought and I think rightly 156 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,759 so that the Palestinians would give in 157 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:59,080 enough that he could keep the main 158 00:06:56,759 --> 00:07:00,680 settlements keep most of East Jerusalem 159 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,039 so he didn't have to to give up 160 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,319 everything but basically settle with the 161 00:07:03,039 --> 00:07:07,599 Palestinians and then Israel becomes a 162 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:10,479 regional hedgemon because the part of 163 00:07:07,599 --> 00:07:12,599 Israel that people don't I think see is 164 00:07:10,479 --> 00:07:14,400 that it's not really I mean now 165 00:07:12,599 --> 00:07:18,800 Netanyahu is a little guy a little 166 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:21,879 thinker so he's into Judea Samaria 167 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,759 settlements all this little little stuff 168 00:07:21,879 --> 00:07:27,440 but Chiron I think really wanted Israel 169 00:07:24,759 --> 00:07:29,560 to run the Middle East so that does 170 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:32,240 appear from what you say to be two Sid 171 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:35,000 Ides to this man he was a brute but not 172 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:39,120 only a brute he was a butcher but not 173 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:43,000 only a butcher so how do you measure uh 174 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:45,120 the uh deterioration or otherwise of 175 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,520 Israeli political leadership since he 176 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,400 left office you described Netanyahu as a 177 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:53,240 little guy equally brutal but with no 178 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:55,400 kind of vision at all that's right well 179 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,720 we have to remember about 180 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,960 Chiron I don't want to humanize the guy 181 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:02,800 too much I mean he was a really brutal 182 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:07,240 terrible guy but again he did have that 183 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,759 he he wasn't simply a a murderer like uh 184 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,759 um you know like sometimes we think of 185 00:08:08,759 --> 00:08:13,120 him I mean he did have he was going so 186 00:08:10,759 --> 00:08:15,520 he had this this bigger Vision but he 187 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,120 wasn't a leud guy he wasn't from the 188 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:21,080 right wing he grew up with Rabin and 189 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:24,080 mosha Dian he was in the palmach he was 190 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:26,759 in the labor camp actually so when he 191 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:29,080 moved over to the right wing in in in 192 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:30,919 his militaristic sense and began to 193 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,320 build settlements he was the architect 194 00:08:30,919 --> 00:08:36,120 of the settlements with beggan and so on 195 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:38,320 there was always a pragmatic part of 196 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,680 Chiron they came from the labor party he 197 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,919 was natany was born into the leud he was 198 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:45,800 born into the revisionist movement he's 199 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:49,279 an ideologue Chiron was never an 200 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,680 ideologue he used violence and and brute 201 00:08:49,279 --> 00:08:53,720 force and the 202 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:55,880 military but he used them in in in a 203 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:59,000 sense in in a in a practical sort of a 204 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,240 way so in other words he was able to I 205 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,399 guess to 206 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:06,920 parley his military thinking and his and 207 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:10,200 his violent urge into Grand 208 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:13,720 strategies Netanyahu is an 209 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:16,120 ideologue he's uh he's limited and all 210 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,560 he really cares about is this little 211 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:20,600 Israel that controls the Palestinians 212 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:22,640 and controls the occupied terrores as 213 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,640 well the people on the street of Israel 214 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,760 see that as well that he was the man 215 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,720 with the big vision and netan no I don't 216 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:33,000 think so I think that big vision part 217 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:35,880 has been lost I I I I don't think you 218 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,800 know Chiron got the stroke before he was 219 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,760 able to really articulate where he was 220 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,279 going so a lot of this is is conjecture 221 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,440 but what I'm saying if you look back at 222 00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:48,040 the Lebanon war of 1982 there was a a a 223 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:51,120 plan a big plan to to redo the whole 224 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,880 Middle East behind the Lebanon Invasion 225 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,560 there was a big plan behind the 226 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:57,440 so-called disengagement from Gaza that I 227 00:09:55,560 --> 00:10:00,480 think had to do with Israel becoming a 228 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:03,519 regional hedgemon in the Middle East 229 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:06,600 um but then he had the stroke and he had 230 00:10:03,519 --> 00:10:08,000 never had a CH you know and why I'm say 231 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,839 partly why I'm saying this is because 232 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,920 you know remember he left the leud the 233 00:10:10,839 --> 00:10:15,120 leud was too small for him it was too 234 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,040 ideological it was too confining he went 235 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,480 and set up his own party kadema that 236 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,320 would give him that Latitude to do these 237 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,279 big things so the Israeli leaders have 238 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:26,519 been getting smaller um yeah ever since 239 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:30,360 gold ofay ear I would say is that going 240 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:32,320 to continue uh how dwarfish uh can they 241 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,600 get and where is it 242 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,920 going no I think it's going it's going 243 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,360 to continue there's no left in Israel I 244 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,839 mean that's part of the problem too I 245 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:45,480 mean uh the labor party is uh completely 246 00:10:42,839 --> 00:10:47,839 gone almost uh there's nobody 247 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:50,399 articulating any kind of of a vision of 248 00:10:47,839 --> 00:10:52,560 any kind of Peace labor has become it 249 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:54,360 calls itself a Social Democratic party 250 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:56,440 that doesn't even deal with the occup 251 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,279 the occupation has become a non-issue in 252 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,519 Israel that's where the different 253 00:10:58,279 --> 00:11:02,360 governments have succeeded and really 254 00:11:00,519 --> 00:11:05,560 taking it off the agenda people don't 255 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,320 think about it because inside Israel 256 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:10,560 it's not an issue you're not going to 257 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:13,200 move the people I can't get a surgeon to 258 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:14,480 operate on his own foot exactly that's 259 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,880 right that's right so what you have to 260 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,959 do is mobilize the International 261 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,800 Community and I think that's happening 262 00:11:18,959 --> 00:11:23,320 it hasn't trickled up yet to the 263 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,600 governments I mean Cameron is still 264 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,320 super pro Israel and everything else but 265 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,920 I think there's been a tremendous change 266 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,560 in public opinion I think there's been a 267 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,279 ground swell even in the United States 268 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:35,560 and I think that's starting to trickle 269 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:37,519 up into the governments I mean the EU 270 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:39,880 has taken some pretty principled stands 271 00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:42,120 recently and that's our strategy it's 272 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,560 kind of like the South African strategy 273 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,959 in which peace won't come from inside it 274 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:48,279 won't come Israelis aren't going to 275 00:11:45,959 --> 00:11:51,000 overthrow the occupation but when the 276 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:53,920 declerk comes whatever the de clerk is 277 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:56,560 whether it's Obama or the UN or the EU 278 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,240 or simply International pressures and 279 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:00,240 the whole occupation becomes 280 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,160 unsustainable I think we're getting 281 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:05,720 there I think at that point uh the 282 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,320 Israeli public will not be an obstacle I 283 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,760 think they'll they'll go along with it 284 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,880 but the pressures are going to have to 285 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:14,880 come from abroad from outside and that's 286 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,880 why we're working to try to uh influence 287 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,959 mobilize public opinion and governments 288 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,959 abroad to put the pressures on Israel 289 00:12:18,959 --> 00:12:23,360 that you need to end the conflict Jeff 290 00:12:20,959 --> 00:12:25,399 Halper it's been fascinating as always 291 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,519 talking to you okay thank you much after 292 00:12:25,399 --> 00:12:29,920 the break we'll be talking to another of 293 00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:32,040 the world's braver men he makes films 294 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,160 and good ones he's becoming a star of 295 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,360 the solidarity movement entirely 296 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:40,880 voluntarily he lives in Gaza his name 297 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,880 inappropriately is Harry 298 00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:46,920 [Music] 299 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:48,959 fear welcome back to Sputnik no man 300 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,000 could have failed to live up to his name 301 00:12:48,959 --> 00:12:55,320 quite so comprehensively than Harry fear 302 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:57,199 he Braves bullet shot and shell in Gaza 303 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,440 just like the Palestinians do he's 304 00:12:57,199 --> 00:13:01,480 standing on the front line taking 305 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,760 pictures you have to be Fearless for 306 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:07,279 that Harry fear thanks for joining us 307 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:10,279 after a grueling 23-hour flight from 308 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:13,279 Malaysia I just wanted to talk to you as 309 00:13:10,279 --> 00:13:16,440 someone with a foot in either Camp as it 310 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:19,040 were a man from the West living in the 311 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,279 East living on the front line indeed 312 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:24,000 what impact do you think the demise of 313 00:13:21,279 --> 00:13:27,160 Ariel shaon who has dominated the 314 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:30,480 political landscape even in his coma uh 315 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:33,680 over these last uh uh DEC decade or more 316 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:37,360 what impact do you think his demise will 317 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:39,600 have well I hope that it will close a 318 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,399 more bloody passage in Israel's history 319 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:45,279 I mean we've seen Palestinians some of 320 00:13:42,399 --> 00:13:47,440 them celebrating this uh passing from 321 00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:49,720 this life to the next because this is 322 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,480 the only Act of justice that has ever 323 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:55,160 come uh to Ariel Chiron I mean he he 324 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,759 totally missed all Justice in this life 325 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,279 and for the Palestinians the largely 326 00:13:56,759 --> 00:14:01,160 believing people of course this is the 327 00:13:59,279 --> 00:14:03,480 something to celebrate that finally 328 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,720 power will be wielded against a man who 329 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:08,000 was a butcher who acted like a 330 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,920 psychopath and who uh with the 331 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,079 propaganda and hypocrisy of the western 332 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:15,079 media and Western leaders has been 333 00:14:12,079 --> 00:14:17,160 hailed as some kind of devoted loving 334 00:14:15,079 --> 00:14:19,199 leader for his country and his people 335 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,720 but of course what that means is that if 336 00:14:19,199 --> 00:14:23,199 he did love his country and his people 337 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,040 and he was so true to his country and he 338 00:14:23,199 --> 00:14:26,720 was also a butcher then it also 339 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,519 obviously identifies that his country 340 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,880 has a serious problem with blood in its 341 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:31,720 hand generally 342 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,120 um and that I think is the number one 343 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:38,000 thing about his passing which the the 344 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:40,560 Discerning uh can see the the picture of 345 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,680 the week had to be uh the Middle East 346 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:48,880 peace Envoy uh done up like an Israeli 347 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:52,199 uh standing there emoting as if Princess 348 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:55,079 Diana had uh just passed as someone from 349 00:14:52,199 --> 00:14:57,240 Britain like me was that hard to Bear it 350 00:14:55,079 --> 00:14:58,639 was but I I was thinking about that just 351 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,680 myself earlier because you know the 352 00:14:58,639 --> 00:15:03,959 treatment of shiron as if he was some 353 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:06,480 kind of um I don't know gift to mankind 354 00:15:03,959 --> 00:15:09,399 or some kind of gift to world leadership 355 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,360 and the irony of how he is treated so uh 356 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:13,399 latently in the western media and it's 357 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,240 exactly the same with Tony Blair himself 358 00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:16,959 I mean he is a war criminal and 359 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,600 generally people hate him and they're 360 00:15:16,959 --> 00:15:21,880 disgusted by the mentioning of his name 361 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,720 but in the media it's nothing like that 362 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,600 at all he's given some kind of parade 363 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,720 and there must be balance and moderation 364 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:31,360 in the comment um you know it's as if 365 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,480 you know the the Israeli media speak of 366 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,160 shiron as if he you know went after 367 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,680 peace with Palestinians in the final 368 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,800 years what it's like saying Tony Blair 369 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,839 went after peace with Iraq and killed 370 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:44,440 almost a million people well they say 371 00:15:40,839 --> 00:15:47,680 they say for example that shaon withdrew 372 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:49,920 from Gaza but as someone based in Gaza 373 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:53,040 you know that Israel hasn't withdrawn 374 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,639 from Gaza they control everything uh 375 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,720 that concerns the lives of the people in 376 00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:58,560 Gaza and the key here is that they say 377 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,480 that it was a withdrawal and it was used 378 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,319 for public propaganda purposes or 379 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,720 diplomatic purposes as a gesture of 380 00:16:02,319 --> 00:16:06,720 peace and Concession but actually if you 381 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,920 look at it more cynically if you were 382 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,480 him uh you would have done that because 383 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,279 then it allows you to consolidate the 384 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,399 parts of the West Bank and other parts 385 00:16:12,279 --> 00:16:16,160 of the historic Palestinian territory 386 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:17,319 which they can hold on to and that's 387 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,240 what we're seeing now with the 388 00:16:17,319 --> 00:16:23,399 negotiations tell us how things are now 389 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:25,480 for the people in Gaza well to be honest 390 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:27,279 with you they've got worse obviously 391 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,880 because of the situation in Egypt the 392 00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:31,680 Hamas authorities have lost their Ally 393 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,600 uh the violence is increasing in the 394 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,839 last few weeks I mean generally after 395 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,759 the November 2012 war in the months 396 00:16:35,839 --> 00:16:41,120 following that things were quieter uh 397 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:44,160 there was less tit fortat uh but now 398 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:47,440 things are slowly escalating again into 399 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:50,319 a way that they were about two years ago 400 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,000 um one hopes that that won't continue 401 00:16:50,319 --> 00:16:54,360 but the people are isolated the 402 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,920 besiegement continues in broad daylight 403 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,279 against the law against all morals and 404 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:02,199 then you have the you know France the UK 405 00:16:59,279 --> 00:17:03,959 and the American politicians then you 406 00:17:02,199 --> 00:17:05,600 know affectionately applauding Ariel 407 00:17:03,959 --> 00:17:08,240 shiron I mean you just couldn't make it 408 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:11,280 up what about the the recent floods that 409 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,720 were a result of the bad weather and 410 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,400 heavy rainfall and Israel's control over 411 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:19,120 the dams yeah I mean people in Gaza said 412 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,760 that when there was the recent um uh 413 00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:24,439 storm Alexa that Israel flooded parts of 414 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,480 Gaza to further uh you know damage the 415 00:17:24,439 --> 00:17:28,559 population uh and there is limited 416 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,799 evidence for that but the key here is 417 00:17:28,559 --> 00:17:33,559 that as I mentioned it's The Siege The 418 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:36,000 Siege is a man-made disaster and it's 419 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:38,280 The Siege which means that Gaza has 420 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:42,520 basically no capacity and infrastructure 421 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:44,280 to deal with natural disasters um at all 422 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,280 and of course the siege of the 423 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,600 destruction of the tunnels must have 424 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:51,039 meant that the economic situation for 425 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:55,120 the almost 2 million Palestinians in 426 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:57,360 Gaza uh um grew even more catastrophic 427 00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:59,679 indeed the economic situation and also I 428 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:02,080 would frankly say the 429 00:17:59,679 --> 00:18:04,679 because the symbolic cutting off of 430 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,960 Egypt the symbolic lack of support from 431 00:18:04,679 --> 00:18:08,240 the Arab countries from the 432 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,159 International Community I mean Gaza in a 433 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,960 way is one of the most forgotten places 434 00:18:10,159 --> 00:18:14,640 on Earth in terms of uh actual support 435 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,080 uh perhaps in terms of sympathy among 436 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,679 the Muslims even amongst the Arabs and 437 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,720 increasingly obviously the Europeans 438 00:18:18,679 --> 00:18:25,520 people are sympathetic but political 439 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:28,280 support zero no shiron has gone uh 440 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:31,320 Netanyahu uh intellectually you might 441 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:35,600 say more dwarfish figure a more even 442 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:38,600 more Petty and venal uh figure uh how 443 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:42,120 does it look to you how securely is he 444 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:44,760 in place are we in for another decade of 445 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,200 Netanyahu I don't think so actually I 446 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,320 think that I mean if you take the 447 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,240 November 2012 War which is certainly one 448 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,200 of the things that will Define him I 449 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:55,159 believe uh I think many uh israelies and 450 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,440 according to the polls they believe that 451 00:18:55,159 --> 00:18:59,440 he handled that very badly and he was 452 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,039 forced to give into a ceas fire and I 453 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,520 think that there is a large contingent 454 00:19:02,039 --> 00:19:08,000 of Israelis in politics there who think 455 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:10,360 that he has failed militarily and 456 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,840 failing militarily of course is very 457 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:13,440 important in the Israeli currency 458 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,039 because Ariel Chiron seen as This 459 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,320 Magnificent leader was of massive 460 00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:20,080 military strategic strength and Etc and 461 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,559 of course responsible for massacres in 462 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,840 Lebanon so in Israel it's almost like 463 00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:26,559 you know creating blood and terrorizing 464 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,760 Palestinians and knocking them into the 465 00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:30,720 darkest corners of the earth is success 466 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:34,919 so Netanyahu I don't think is so much 467 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:36,799 established uh in that uh image um and I 468 00:19:34,919 --> 00:19:38,799 hope for Israel and I hope for the 469 00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:41,000 Palestinians and for the uh for the 470 00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:43,880 region that we won't be in for another 471 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,720 10 years with him you are a very central 472 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:49,440 figure now uh in international 473 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,200 solidarity with the Palestinian people 474 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,280 what's the current state of play I would 475 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,360 say that there is a lot of sympathy 476 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,240 there there is a lot of yearning for 477 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:01,840 support I would say that sometimes s the 478 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:05,480 support isn't properly galvanized it's 479 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:08,280 not strategic enough um but of course at 480 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,440 the same time uh more subjectively there 481 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,480 are successes which people hold on to 482 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,840 there is of course the BDS movement with 483 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,760 the boycotts and Etc which there are 484 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:19,360 always successes which are held up for 485 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:22,159 good reason and I always say the BDS uh 486 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:23,760 movement as one of the main uh pincers 487 00:20:22,159 --> 00:20:26,080 of the solidarity in terms of actually 488 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,679 moving to action and accountability and 489 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,840 Justice um is something which we should 490 00:20:28,679 --> 00:20:33,480 support because BDS and boycotting 491 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,600 itself is a very human intuitive thing 492 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,240 you know if you have an argument with 493 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,679 someone just walk away so that's what 494 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,159 we're doing with Israel I would say at 495 00:20:38,679 --> 00:20:43,679 the same time there are fractures within 496 00:20:41,159 --> 00:20:45,600 the solidarity movement uh there is of 497 00:20:43,679 --> 00:20:47,640 course infighting as there is with any 498 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:51,200 organization or movement and that is 499 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:53,840 obviously very weakening um and very 500 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:57,080 difficult uh for people to deal with um 501 00:20:53,840 --> 00:21:00,280 but I hope that the solidarity movement 502 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,720 uh doesn't last much much longer because 503 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,520 of course the solidarity movement is 504 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,080 something which has existed for decades 505 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,960 because the conflict has existed for 506 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,919 decades so I certainly hope it won't be 507 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:13,120 needed much longer um and I think the 508 00:21:09,919 --> 00:21:16,039 solidarity movement must find its 509 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:18,320 freshness it must not become entrenched 510 00:21:16,039 --> 00:21:20,640 direct Aid into the Palestinians is 511 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,840 becoming much more difficult Once Upon a 512 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,600 Time as you know I took many convoys 513 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,640 there I wouldn't be able to do so now I 514 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:30,200 couldn't travel across North Africa as I 515 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,520 did with the first of those convoys I 516 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:35,640 wouldn't be able to go through Syria as 517 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:38,039 I did with the second or third of those 518 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,240 convoys and now with Egypt I don't want 519 00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:43,480 to put you in any difficulty uh the 520 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:46,640 Egyptian position has markedly changed 521 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:48,279 any ideas how we can break that Log Jam 522 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,840 well there was a petition recently to 523 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:51,520 the Egyptian embassies around the world 524 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,720 saying you got to open the border at 525 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,240 least uh send it back to how it was a 526 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,039 year ago even if you don't open it up 527 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,240 for normal economic and pedestrian 528 00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:01,360 traffic and of course they with the 529 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,400 claims that well if we do anything to 530 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,600 improve the Border then Israel will just 531 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,520 abgate its responsibilities towards Gaza 532 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,039 and Egypt rather guys will become a part 533 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,480 of Egypt in a in a pseudo way but of 534 00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:13,919 course these don't stand up to any 535 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,360 humanitarian argument or any moral 536 00:22:13,919 --> 00:22:18,520 argument uh or any Regional argument 537 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:20,240 because uh Egyptians are brothers with 538 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:25,000 Palestinians in a way that Israelis 539 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:27,400 aren't um and really the instability in 540 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,240 Egypt um I think one of the biggest 541 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,760 tragedies is the situ situation in Gaza 542 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,200 and that's why the situation in Egypt is 543 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,520 so vital for Gaza in a in a very 544 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:39,960 short-term emergency way Harry thanks 545 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,960 for joining us on the 546 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:45,960 Sputnik this is where you tell us what 547 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,880 you think through our social media 548 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:51,240 Roundup looking at our Twitter and our 549 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:54,919 Facebook gri what's rattling well you 550 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:57,760 remember that bush and Blair um spoke 551 00:22:54,919 --> 00:22:59,840 about ER Chiron as the man of Peace yes 552 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,200 well when I put it that way on Twitter 553 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:05,080 and on Facebook I received a flood of 554 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:08,200 comments rat Cass says war criminals 555 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,919 stick together see no evil here no evil 556 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:14,039 Leila hatum says that there's an Arabic 557 00:23:10,919 --> 00:23:17,039 saying no one would say their own oil is 558 00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:20,480 rotten so murderers won't call out on of 559 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:22,840 their own Ahmed says if peace means 560 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,400 killing of innocent people then yes he 561 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:29,840 was a peace Champion along with bush and 562 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:32,200 Blair and Maid ayat says well if you 563 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:35,360 believe in big food Santa Claus and the 564 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:38,159 Smurf then yes he was a man of peace all 565 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:40,760 comments like this it's amazing well I I 566 00:23:38,159 --> 00:23:43,279 remember when Bush first said that shaon 567 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,400 was a man of Peace making the point that 568 00:23:43,279 --> 00:23:47,960 even Ariel shaon wouldn't describe 569 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:52,080 himself as a man of Peace but Blair 570 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:55,760 repeated this utter falsehood at his 571 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:58,520 eulogy uh in the uh in the funeral uh 572 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,120 ceremony I must say that I thought my 573 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:03,400 opinion of Tony Blair could not fall any 574 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:06,240 further but the sight of him and the 575 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,320 sound of him at that funeral really put 576 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,760 the tin hat on it as far as I was 577 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:13,720 concerned I go on anymore well on 578 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,760 Facebook John L house says well we 579 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:19,080 should all trust Bush and Blair they 580 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:21,960 always tell the truth and shafen Ahmed 581 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:24,080 says some newpapers comment that he's 582 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,960 controversial man but he's not 583 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,120 controversial at all he's just a war 584 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,159 criminal he's bloodthirsty and he's a 585 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,960 murder 586 00:24:29,159 --> 00:24:34,360 and you can speak of all three about of 587 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:38,000 them but what uh is interesting is uh 588 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:40,320 Jeff halper's testimony that uh that he 589 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:44,240 was of course a butcher he was a 590 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:46,360 murderer and for more than 50 years but 591 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,720 actually had quite a big brain and he 592 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:53,399 had a strategic vision of making Israel 593 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:56,640 the regional hegemon the greater Israel 594 00:24:53,399 --> 00:24:59,000 from the Euphrates to the Nile which is 595 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:02,760 what the two stripes on the Israeli flag 596 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,919 are supposed to signify so uh in that 597 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:08,279 sense we should be glad that he didn't 598 00:25:04,919 --> 00:25:11,320 succeed well um the last one from uh 599 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:13,840 Facebook is from Rahman Lincoln saying 600 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,080 that only a terrorist can call him man 601 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,760 of peace and that's all that we've got 602 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,520 time for this week which alas means 603 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,559 that's the end of the show keep giving 604 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,480 us your opinions your comments and 605 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:27,200 everything on Twitter at rtor Sputnik 606 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,760 and on Facebook you can find us at 607 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,480 Sputnik on Russia today that's it for me 608 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,980 gatri and from me George Galloway it's 609 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:39,779 been marvelous 610 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:39,779 [Music]