1 00:00:01,710 --> 00:00:06,080 [Music] 2 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,440 okay I get 3 00:00:35,079 --> 00:00:40,079 welcome to Sputnik on this fine Boxing 4 00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:42,520 Day orbiting the world with me George 5 00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:44,920 Galloway and me gatri he's only the 6 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:47,480 funniest writer in England writing for 7 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,960 the mass circulation Daily Mail 8 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:52,920 sometimes twice a day as parliamentary 9 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:55,719 sketch writer of the very first Rank and 10 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,520 he's no mean theater critic either so 11 00:00:55,719 --> 00:01:00,000 how would he have the time to write a 12 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,800 crackling new novel The Speaker's wife 13 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,040 and come on board the Sputnik well we're 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,920 glad to say he's here now he doesn't 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,880 have much time so let's meet the one and 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,320 only Quenton let Quenton a pleasure to 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:16,000 have you here at Christmas time the 18 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:17,759 speaker's wife is it uh biographical uh 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,439 it is about Parliament and it's about 20 00:01:17,759 --> 00:01:21,000 the Church of England funly enough but 21 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:23,840 there is a character in it who is a 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:26,960 speaker who is a scurvy little so and so 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:29,400 and he he does H have a wife indeed but 24 00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:31,799 no it is fiction and it's about 25 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:35,360 parliamentary corruption sure but it's 26 00:01:31,799 --> 00:01:38,200 also to do with the cultural uh decline 27 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:41,399 of traditionalism in Britain today and a 28 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:43,479 complete lack of self-belief among the 29 00:01:41,399 --> 00:01:46,040 traditionalists well our institutions 30 00:01:43,479 --> 00:01:48,119 have uh have lost their credibility 31 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,799 that's not fiction that's not fiction 32 00:01:48,119 --> 00:01:53,119 and you know the Britain that that uh 33 00:01:50,799 --> 00:01:55,079 the outside world sees is a Britain with 34 00:01:53,119 --> 00:01:58,200 the royal family and with magnificent 35 00:01:55,079 --> 00:02:00,399 buildings and with all the old panoply 36 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,280 of Empire but actually the institutions 37 00:02:00,399 --> 00:02:05,000 of Britain today many of them are 38 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,280 spiritually at least are husks and they 39 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,599 have lost that self-belief which was so 40 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,480 important you are a Christian man a 41 00:02:09,599 --> 00:02:15,440 church of England man um Once Upon a 42 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:19,360 Time Parliament and indeed the country 43 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:22,760 was uh quite identifiably perhaps 44 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:25,560 hypocritically but quite identifiably uh 45 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,480 a Christian country but even the 46 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,319 Christians in Britain are not very 47 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,760 Christian anymore are they no there has 48 00:02:29,319 --> 00:02:34,160 been a decline in churchgoing certainly 49 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,680 in numbers but I think on the whole it 50 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,239 is the Britain is still very much a 51 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:41,200 Christian country it draws it its its 52 00:02:38,239 --> 00:02:43,200 modern understanding of Tolerance from 53 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,640 uh uh old-fashioned Christianity which 54 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:48,319 wasn't as tolerant but it takes its 55 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:50,200 Creed from that and my belief and partly 56 00:02:48,319 --> 00:02:52,599 what I'm trying to reflect in this book 57 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:55,959 is that I think that that uh tolerance 58 00:02:52,599 --> 00:02:57,680 and that that cultural uh liberality the 59 00:02:55,959 --> 00:02:59,319 the liberal nature of of our culture has 60 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,360 been pushed about as far as it can 61 00:02:59,319 --> 00:03:05,000 possibly go go without it starting to 62 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:07,000 damage itself and uh this is being seen 63 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,280 not just I'm not just talking about here 64 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,879 the the threat from uh uh from islamists 65 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,879 but I'm talking about the threat from 66 00:03:11,879 --> 00:03:17,159 things like selfishness and uh the lack 67 00:03:14,879 --> 00:03:19,519 of self-discipline and the way that we 68 00:03:17,159 --> 00:03:24,280 have as a as a country have lost the 69 00:03:19,519 --> 00:03:27,519 idea of community and of of of social um 70 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:30,280 generosity through capitalism perhaps 71 00:03:27,519 --> 00:03:32,040 well capitalism is to my mind is a very 72 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,560 good thing in many ways I don't think 73 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,760 it's just to do with the the nature of 74 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,360 wealth creation it's to do with 75 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:39,760 something deeper inside us greed yes 76 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,280 greed and I think greed can greed is not 77 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,680 necessarily the same as capitalism uh so 78 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:47,640 it's to do with the way that we relate 79 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,040 to other people and uh it's to do with 80 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,239 uh for instance the idea that we can 81 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,400 just rely on the state rather than 82 00:03:51,239 --> 00:03:56,319 relying on society the state and Society 83 00:03:53,400 --> 00:04:00,319 are very different things indeed uh Mrs 84 00:03:56,319 --> 00:04:03,400 stelo the The High Priestess whom I'm uh 85 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:05,159 guessing you admired uh up to a point 86 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,200 with with very much with with uh with 87 00:04:05,159 --> 00:04:09,439 limitations there I mean she was she was 88 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,640 misquoted on that she but the she I 89 00:04:09,439 --> 00:04:13,159 think was she was she said there was no 90 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,239 such thing as Society well she didn't 91 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:17,199 quite say that it has been taken out of 92 00:04:15,239 --> 00:04:19,560 context a little but she was I think 93 00:04:17,199 --> 00:04:21,519 trying to get across the idea that just 94 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,440 relying on the state just saying oh the 95 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:25,240 state can look after that that's not 96 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,479 good enough we have to we have to look 97 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,120 after things from from a smaller level 98 00:04:27,479 --> 00:04:30,440 from our Villages and from our towns and 99 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,479 from our neighborhood 100 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:37,320 but but her lesson from the parable of 101 00:04:33,479 --> 00:04:39,160 the Good Samaritan was that uh that that 102 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,320 the Good Samaritan had made piles of 103 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:44,479 money uh before he happened upon this 104 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:47,080 poor wretch otherwise wouldn't have been 105 00:04:44,479 --> 00:04:48,880 able to help him well yes I mean she was 106 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,160 easily caricatured Mrs thater she was 107 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,479 not without her 108 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,360 faults let's talk about Parliament 109 00:04:52,479 --> 00:04:58,400 because I uh I'm an admirer of course of 110 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:01,759 your novels but uh your parliamentary 111 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:05,639 sketch writing is uh Peerless there have 112 00:05:01,759 --> 00:05:08,400 been other greats Matthew Paris uh the 113 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:10,919 late and great Frank Johnson Lev was a 114 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,600 very good one as well I I never read him 115 00:05:10,919 --> 00:05:16,840 uh I'll take your advice and uh and read 116 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:20,840 some of his past columns but yours is uh 117 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:23,680 way well up there with these uh Giants 118 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:26,000 um but of course like every other writer 119 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:30,759 your material is all you've got to work 120 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:33,039 with uh I'm guessing that the Fusion of 121 00:05:30,759 --> 00:05:35,400 Scottish nationalists a kind of Highland 122 00:05:33,039 --> 00:05:37,440 Division has made the house a bit more 123 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,240 interesting for a sketch writer has it 124 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,520 it's made it different and difference is 125 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,720 always important for journalists because 126 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,960 we like the new but you don't 127 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:48,000 necessarily need to have uh a House of 128 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:50,600 Commons full of admirable um brilliant 129 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,400 people to make an interesting column 130 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,319 sometimes failure can be very 131 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,280 interesting to to write about and funny 132 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:58,120 to write about and what one tries to do 133 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,960 as a sketch writer and I think it's a 134 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,280 very it's a it's a a journalist istic 135 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:05,039 genre particular to Britain you try to 136 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:07,120 drill down into the character of the 137 00:06:05,039 --> 00:06:10,080 people that you are that who are who are 138 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:14,039 passing the laws and so if those people 139 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:17,720 happen happen to be uh inadequate uh or 140 00:06:14,039 --> 00:06:19,120 or or or lazy or downright stupid then 141 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,120 you know that can give you that's just 142 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,039 as interesting that's just as 143 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,840 interesting as to have a a house full of 144 00:06:23,039 --> 00:06:27,319 ciceros so it was a quite tulous year 145 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:30,039 with the general election the 146 00:06:27,319 --> 00:06:32,759 re-election of the Tories and then the 147 00:06:30,039 --> 00:06:35,440 labor leader election what was your 148 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:36,960 highlight within Parliament well uh I 149 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,840 think the arrival of Jeremy Corbin as 150 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,120 the labor leader uh the leader of the 151 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:42,759 opposition in Britain has been very 152 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:46,800 interesting because he is not your off 153 00:06:42,759 --> 00:06:48,840 the peg modern uh photogenic soundbite 154 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,840 politician and uh I mean I think he's 155 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:52,599 doing terrible things to the labor party 156 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:54,360 which sadly enough but you know it's 157 00:06:52,599 --> 00:06:56,080 certainly interesting to see that as the 158 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,960 theater of politics yeah cuz you see it 159 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,280 all from above happening yes and it's 160 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,120 also been you know it's been unexpected 161 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:04,080 uh and G that that again you know is 162 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,879 very uh interesting but one of the 163 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,319 highlights which I'm sure George would 164 00:07:05,879 --> 00:07:10,960 not have enjoyed was the speech of 165 00:07:07,319 --> 00:07:12,160 Hillary Ben about uh the bombing about 166 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,120 taking whether or not Britain should 167 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,960 join the bombing action over Syria and 168 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,720 that was really interesting because 169 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,000 there you had the internal party dramas 170 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:24,479 which were played out in front of us of 171 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,680 uh Hillary Ben who is the uh the the 172 00:07:24,479 --> 00:07:29,039 labor Foreign Affairs spokesman making a 173 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,919 speech next to him his party leader 174 00:07:29,039 --> 00:07:33,520 disagree with everything and that was 175 00:07:30,919 --> 00:07:35,199 fascinating to see that being played out 176 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,840 on the stage of pass of Comm it was 177 00:07:35,199 --> 00:07:40,240 extremely dramatic as a piece of oratory 178 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,400 I didn't actually think much of it and 179 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,759 well it was well it was well delivered 180 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,520 George it was badly written it was it 181 00:07:42,759 --> 00:07:46,599 was nothing as a piece of work it didn't 182 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:49,400 have interesting words but he delivered 183 00:07:46,599 --> 00:07:51,639 it in a way that was first of all it was 184 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,919 great because it was unexpected from him 185 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:55,840 and he's really not not until now had 186 00:07:53,919 --> 00:07:57,840 given us any idea he could do that but 187 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:00,240 also he turned to his own benches and 188 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:03,159 delivered the speech to his own Riven 189 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,639 party and that that's what made it it's 190 00:08:03,159 --> 00:08:06,919 funny in Reverse I don't know if you 191 00:08:05,639 --> 00:08:09,599 were there it might have been slightly 192 00:08:06,919 --> 00:08:13,000 before your time a man who passed this 193 00:08:09,599 --> 00:08:15,840 year uh Lord how Sir Jeffrey how as he 194 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,319 then was in the house the day he didn't 195 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,159 deliver it well because he never 196 00:08:17,319 --> 00:08:22,080 delivered anything well but the words 197 00:08:19,159 --> 00:08:24,000 were very very powerful when he made the 198 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:27,319 speech which effectively ended Mrs 199 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,879 Thatcher's leadership now I was there as 200 00:08:27,319 --> 00:08:32,039 a piece of parliamentary drama that was 201 00:08:29,879 --> 00:08:34,560 a truly extraordinary day wasn't it and 202 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:36,560 it was because in oratory context is 203 00:08:34,560 --> 00:08:38,120 terribly important you know you can have 204 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:39,279 the most boring words delivered in in a 205 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,360 certain context which can become 206 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:42,360 brilliant and you can have brilliant 207 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,200 words delivered in a boring context 208 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:48,519 which die but there was how who was the 209 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,839 ultimate Mouse suddenly roared and he 210 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:52,240 roared against there was the 211 00:08:49,839 --> 00:08:55,120 impenetrable Mrs thater who was suddenly 212 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,320 brought down by this unlikely person yes 213 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,640 I was there that day that was one of the 214 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:01,399 early days when I was sketching and the 215 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:04,560 uh the the the great now also late this 216 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:07,760 year uh Lord Healey Dennis Healey was 217 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:10,640 the a very big figure in labor in 218 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:13,079 government and in opposition he once 219 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,720 said that being attacked by the late Sir 220 00:09:13,079 --> 00:09:19,120 Jeffrey was like being Savaged by a dead 221 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:21,519 sheep yes and uh that was the making of 222 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:25,160 both men in some ways indeed to some 223 00:09:21,519 --> 00:09:27,480 extent um now Cameron's back in looking 224 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,120 very uh very pleased with themselves 225 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,399 looking very pleased with himself very 226 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,959 PL 227 00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:36,880 uh is he going to last the 5 years you 228 00:09:33,959 --> 00:09:38,959 think or will someone like Boris try toh 229 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,760 overturn him I would be surprised if he 230 00:09:38,959 --> 00:09:43,120 lasts the whole five years because he 231 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,720 has said he's going to go and the nature 232 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,320 of uh human nature is to to want to have 233 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,600 someone someone else want to take over 234 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,200 from him just shortly before the end uh 235 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,240 I think he's going to have a failure in 236 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:56,399 his negotiations in Europe and that 237 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:59,600 might hasten that might bring early make 238 00:09:56,399 --> 00:10:01,399 early his his departure and uh then will 239 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,399 be a terrible cat fight in the 240 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:05,360 conservative party to succeed him and 241 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:08,440 that will I suspect do the conservatives 242 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,240 damage as will the whole European R so 243 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,720 at the moment there are the 244 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,760 conservatives looking very very 245 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:17,079 confident but there are tumultuous times 246 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,600 ahead and this may be seen as the high 247 00:10:17,079 --> 00:10:22,079 point of their fortunes indeed and I 248 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:25,160 wouldn't put money on them winning the 249 00:10:22,079 --> 00:10:28,920 uh European Union referendum despite all 250 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:32,200 my problems with fists and xenophobes of 251 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:35,200 all kinds no I I'll be campaigning for a 252 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:38,200 withdrawal you will I will uh and I 253 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:40,959 think uh we're currently about 50/50 in 254 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,920 the polls and yes and it all depends I I 255 00:10:40,959 --> 00:10:45,120 it's caught up with uh the immigration 256 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,680 stuff which is electric for a large part 257 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,959 of the population whether or not that 258 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:52,639 part of the population votes may be a 259 00:10:49,959 --> 00:10:55,240 different matter and of course uh if 260 00:10:52,639 --> 00:10:58,639 Cameron campaigns to stay in and the 261 00:10:55,240 --> 00:11:00,519 vote goes against him and we pull out 262 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:03,440 especially if Boris has shrewdly 263 00:11:00,519 --> 00:11:05,959 positioned himself uh what's your take 264 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:08,079 on him Boris likely to be the next 265 00:11:05,959 --> 00:11:09,279 leader uh everything when you go around 266 00:11:08,079 --> 00:11:12,160 the street with Boris it is 267 00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:13,720 extraordinary to see the uh reaction uh 268 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,320 of the public to him the only person who 269 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,320 comes close to it in my uh experience is 270 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,279 Alex sammon if you go out on the street 271 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,399 with Alex sammon people run up to say 272 00:11:20,279 --> 00:11:24,000 hello to him and it's the same with 273 00:11:21,399 --> 00:11:27,120 Boris so there is an excitement and a 274 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,440 hunger in the public for more Boris but 275 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:32,800 this man Boris is not disciplined he 276 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,320 doesn't have the uh sort of rigor that 277 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,880 you need to be a prime minister The 278 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:40,720 Daily Grind of being of leadership and 279 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:42,360 he's indecisive and he hasn't made up 280 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,839 his mind yet about the European question 281 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,279 if you haven't made up your mind about 282 00:11:43,839 --> 00:11:47,079 that yet this is one of the big 283 00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:49,560 questions in British politics in 284 00:11:47,079 --> 00:11:51,880 European politics then it strikes me 285 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:53,560 there's something wrong with you and uh 286 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,880 he lacks the seriousness he's too 287 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:57,880 ambitious in some ways he's he's a bit 288 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,360 of a goal hanger as we used to say the 289 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,959 sort of Center forward he used to stand 290 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,079 just near the opposition go waiting for 291 00:12:00,959 --> 00:12:05,639 the easy goal wouldn't do the hard work 292 00:12:03,079 --> 00:12:07,600 in Midfield Quenton let's as always 293 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:09,959 fascinating to hear you thank you very 294 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,160 much for joining us on the Sputnik 295 00:12:09,959 --> 00:12:14,560 coming up after the break it's only 296 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,560 Brian 297 00:12:16,010 --> 00:12:21,360 [Music] 298 00:12:17,639 --> 00:12:23,959 Eno welcome back to Sputnik Brian Eno 299 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:26,360 has been a major figure in popular music 300 00:12:23,959 --> 00:12:28,839 and culture for most of my life from 301 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:31,480 Roxy Music to Robert Wyatt producing 302 00:12:28,839 --> 00:12:33,839 album for Coldplay and you twoo when 303 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,680 they were great and much much else 304 00:12:33,839 --> 00:12:39,680 besides but his political commitment for 305 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:42,079 justice and peace against war after War 306 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:44,160 have made him stand out from the crowds 307 00:12:42,079 --> 00:12:47,040 he has marched and sung the songs of 308 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:49,760 Freedom with Millions many mere children 309 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:52,480 when he commanded the stage with a 310 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,839 synthetizer it is an honor therefore to 311 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:58,320 have him on board the Sputnik on this 312 00:12:54,839 --> 00:13:00,639 Boxing Day Brian thanks for joining us 313 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:03,560 uh I know uh you don't want to talk 314 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:06,600 about your music career so let me just 315 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:11,480 ask you how you segued or what made you 316 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:14,639 segue from being such a major rock star 317 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:17,800 uh to being a person next to us on 318 00:13:14,639 --> 00:13:20,279 marches in London it's not 319 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:23,240 normal well I always had political 320 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:26,199 interests in fact I was I was a sort of 321 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,959 anarchist when I was a kid in the old 322 00:13:26,199 --> 00:13:30,120 sense of a philosophical Anarchist of 323 00:13:27,959 --> 00:13:32,160 thinking what was it possible to run 324 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,720 things without governments at all or 325 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,800 what was the minimum amount of 326 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:39,079 government that would be needed so I was 327 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:42,000 I was sort of into the theory of 328 00:13:39,079 --> 00:13:45,480 politics for a long time but the action 329 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:48,040 followed as you say rather late so apart 330 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,440 from being a student and demonstrating 331 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,560 against Vietnam and so on there was a 332 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:56,399 long period when I wasn't physically 333 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:59,480 involved in anything political and then 334 00:13:56,399 --> 00:14:02,759 when I started to see after thater 335 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,759 really the the end of what they call the 336 00:14:02,759 --> 00:14:07,519 Golden Age of capitalism I think the 337 00:14:04,759 --> 00:14:10,320 period postwar up until Thatcher and 338 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:12,959 Reagan when I started to see things 339 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:16,360 being clawed back so that workers rights 340 00:14:12,959 --> 00:14:18,600 started to disappear again um welfare 341 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,959 started to be shrunk all the things that 342 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,440 had really been the product of you know 343 00:14:20,959 --> 00:14:25,839 A Century of sort of socialistic 344 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,720 thinking actually when I started to see 345 00:14:25,839 --> 00:14:31,440 those eroding then I became more engaged 346 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,839 again it was a brief moment of social 347 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,680 democracy really rather than socialism 348 00:14:33,839 --> 00:14:37,560 from my point of view it was a very 349 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:42,440 brief period when you think of it yes 350 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:44,839 from 1945 to 1979 y years even in the in 351 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,800 the life of one man or woman that's uh 352 00:14:44,839 --> 00:14:50,839 not that significant in the history of a 353 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:53,600 country it's a mere fraction of a second 354 00:14:50,839 --> 00:14:57,199 uh and Britain has changed for the worse 355 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:59,639 very considerably uh since then but not 356 00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:01,880 many people who I in Fair ing from all 357 00:14:59,639 --> 00:15:04,600 this stardom that you are comfortably 358 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:08,160 off not many people who are comfortably 359 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,040 off uh care about that what's different 360 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,320 about 361 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:15,320 you well actually I think I think quite 362 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,560 a few people care about it um they don't 363 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,120 think that there's much they can do 364 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,320 about it which is which is slightly 365 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:23,079 different so they don't get involved you 366 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,199 know it's it's it looks complicated it's 367 00:15:23,079 --> 00:15:27,880 made to look complicated I think it 368 00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:29,600 isn't as complicated as it looks I think 369 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,240 the story has been 370 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:35,160 confabulated so in order to keep you out 371 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:37,319 of it actually the it's been made to 372 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,759 seem like an area that you couldn't ever 373 00:15:37,319 --> 00:15:41,639 approach you couldn't have opinions 374 00:15:38,759 --> 00:15:44,600 about and indeed you know if you see 375 00:15:41,639 --> 00:15:46,680 when um public figures who aren't 376 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:49,040 politicians get involved in politics the 377 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,279 first accusation they always get in 378 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,560 England anyway is what right do you have 379 00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:55,240 to talk about this I've heard this a lot 380 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,720 you know people saying what would you 381 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,680 know about it and you think well what do 382 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,440 politicians know about it sources of 383 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,519 information do they have that I don't 384 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,519 have most of the information is 385 00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:07,920 available now actually so so any 386 00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:10,880 intelligent person is able to make a 387 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:13,560 judgment um so I think the first thing 388 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,839 that I would say to everybody is it's 389 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,839 not rocket science actually there are 390 00:16:15,839 --> 00:16:20,360 there are some simple social processes 391 00:16:17,839 --> 00:16:23,160 going on that that we have a right to be 392 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:26,000 involved in and to intervene 393 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:28,480 in well Ryan you were uh at the 394 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,040 Forefront uh speaking against Israeli 395 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:34,160 oppression in Palestine uh past year and 396 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:37,440 in the Gaza war 397 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:40,480 2014 um you were along with some other 398 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:43,079 major stars from Hollywood as well 399 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,560 speaking against the aggression but some 400 00:16:43,079 --> 00:16:48,040 of them paid the price for it like the 401 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:51,560 actress penelopi Cruz and her 402 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:54,839 husband how how have they um I'm trying 403 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:57,240 to understand that when artists trying 404 00:16:54,839 --> 00:17:00,920 to speak against this major issue of the 405 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:03,279 Middle East the response among the among 406 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,520 the among your own circles basically 407 00:17:03,279 --> 00:17:08,559 well again the first thing that people 408 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:11,280 always say is what do you know about it 409 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:13,559 so again it's it's turned into a much 410 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,520 more complicated story than it is the 411 00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:18,240 story to me is very simple there's a a 412 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,640 people that are being colonized 413 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,520 essentially and their land is being 414 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:25,000 taken from them illegally that's that's 415 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,959 very simple and everything seems to grow 416 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,440 out of that but um that's constantly 417 00:17:27,959 --> 00:17:31,960 denied and hid 418 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:36,080 within stories of Rocket attacks and 419 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:39,120 tunnels and blah blah blah so again it's 420 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:42,840 it's made to look too complicated and of 421 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:46,120 course I get a lot of reaction from um 422 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:49,080 pro-israeli or Pro Zionist um people who 423 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:51,080 say you have no right to talk about this 424 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,720 or why are you picking on Israel that's 425 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:56,840 that's the particularly frequent um 426 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:59,840 criticism I think uh you as well have 427 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:02,720 raised the Israeli pales 428 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:06,440 issue comparing it with South African 429 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:09,480 aparte do you compare the rise the the 430 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:14,159 voices from the artist against this 431 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:16,440 aparte to that era yes I do and I I hope 432 00:18:14,159 --> 00:18:19,240 that it will have a similar effect I 433 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:23,799 mean I'm I have to say I'm slightly 434 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:26,360 equivocal about the um impact of BDS 435 00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:27,960 though I support it I can also 436 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:30,200 understand why people wouldn't support 437 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,720 it and why they would think it's it's 438 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:36,120 better if I carry on with what I'm doing 439 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,679 um my as an artist you know so I don't I 440 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:41,559 I certainly wouldn't put pressure on 441 00:18:37,679 --> 00:18:43,400 other artists to support BDS however as 442 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:47,200 far as I'm concerned that it's the best 443 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:51,159 thing I can do um for ex to give you an 444 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:53,720 example um poor Roger Waters who is now 445 00:18:51,159 --> 00:18:56,559 being crucified daily for his support of 446 00:18:53,720 --> 00:19:01,240 BDS all over the world you know Howard 447 00:18:56,559 --> 00:19:03,360 Stern in his terrible ra program is um 448 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,840 absolutely laying into him with with no 449 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:07,600 mercy at all well this is at least this 450 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,280 is the minimum that you get out of it 451 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,200 the spark that you know it excites 452 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,640 Lauren Hill for example was supposed to 453 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:17,240 perform as well in Tel Aviv and in the 454 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,039 end he it was a long you know was long 455 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,240 he took a long time to consider it but 456 00:19:19,039 --> 00:19:23,440 in the end he decided not to but was 457 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,400 very apologetic about it and that you 458 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,520 know this was a lot of response about it 459 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,320 a lot of people talked about and I think 460 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,120 that's a good start no 461 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,640 start not assume it as normal that's 462 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:36,039 that's absolutely true I think that 463 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,760 getting the conversation going is is 464 00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:40,960 actually one of the important parts of 465 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:43,120 BDS it's it's not only the fact that 466 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,720 there's a cultural boycott of some kind 467 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:46,880 but it's the fact that that makes people 468 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,760 start talking about it so it keeps the 469 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,960 issue visible because you know 470 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,720 unfortunately what's happening in Gaza 471 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,200 for 472 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,760 example as soon as the you know after a 473 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,880 week it goes off the front pages so it's 474 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,159 it's always disappearing but it's always 475 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:04,480 going on and it isn't just going on in 476 00:20:01,159 --> 00:20:07,760 the sense of um missile attacks and air 477 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:10,679 attacks it's going on in Daily kind of 478 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:13,760 humiliations and restrictions on freedom 479 00:20:10,679 --> 00:20:18,559 for instance um I read the other day 480 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:21,400 that um the Israelis are now re redoing 481 00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:23,600 all the road signs in Israel so that 482 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:26,760 they no longer carry the Arabic names of 483 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:30,039 any towns they now carry the arabized 484 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:32,679 Israeli names do you what I mean it is 485 00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:35,360 uh an extraordinary thing you I I read 486 00:20:32,679 --> 00:20:39,440 something you wrote that uh I found very 487 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:42,200 powerful you made the comparison to the 488 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:45,760 uh White settler colonization of what is 489 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:48,600 now the United States uh usurping the 490 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:52,840 indigenous people uh killing a lot of 491 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:54,520 them pushing them to the margins and uh 492 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:58,720 then watching them or not watching them 493 00:20:54,520 --> 00:21:00,880 rot uh in essentially reservations I was 494 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,880 very close for very many years to the 495 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:07,039 late president Arafat and he used to 496 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:09,600 always insist we are not the red Indians 497 00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:11,120 quite a politically incorrect phrase but 498 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:14,840 you know what he meant we are not going 499 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:18,520 to go he used to say into the museum uh 500 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:21,080 like uh the Indian culture uh in the 501 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,480 United States um but I I just wanted to 502 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:27,760 follow something up I I I certainly 503 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:31,679 won't name names but a major rock star 504 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:34,760 uh of acquaint uh was for a Time 505 00:21:31,679 --> 00:21:38,120 involved with us uh on Middle Eastern 506 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:41,799 Palestinian matters and then pulled out 507 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:44,440 and when I asked them uh why they said 508 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:47,320 that the pressure in in Hollywood and in 509 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,200 in the music business and so on uh by 510 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,240 which they meant the the pressure of 511 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:55,880 losing money have you ever been subject 512 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:58,919 to that kind of commercial pressure to 513 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,039 desist from your criticisms of uh 514 00:21:58,919 --> 00:22:04,039 Israeli 515 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:06,080 crimes no I haven't actually um but I I 516 00:22:04,039 --> 00:22:08,400 should say I think that what's important 517 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,159 to most people most performers anyway is 518 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,240 not the commercial pressure I don't 519 00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:14,159 think it's money they're worried about I 520 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,919 think if you think of the psychology of 521 00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:20,520 performers they're people who like being 522 00:22:16,919 --> 00:22:23,679 liked it matters to you to be liked and 523 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:27,200 to suddenly get a a kind of full-powered 524 00:22:23,679 --> 00:22:29,080 Hose of vital directed at you U and it 525 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,640 really is virulent some of of this stuff 526 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:34,720 that comes towards you I'll show you my 527 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:37,400 scars yes exactly you would know yeah um 528 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:40,000 it's really shocking actually it's very 529 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,200 surprising for people who've been used 530 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,480 to audiences applauding them you know 531 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,279 and suddenly to get all of this uh 532 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,600 directed at them so I I think it's it's 533 00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:51,000 really not the money that people are 534 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:54,120 worried about it's the it's suddenly 535 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,559 being the object of public contempt and 536 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:58,760 hatred you had a great line at the 537 00:22:56,559 --> 00:23:01,039 demonstration outside Downing Street you 538 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,480 said uh to a man with a hammer 539 00:23:01,039 --> 00:23:05,159 everything looks like a nail it's a very 540 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:09,000 very good line tell us what you meant by 541 00:23:05,159 --> 00:23:10,799 it well we as a nation we're holding a 542 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,080 huge Hammer which we're very proud of 543 00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:15,559 which is our defense structure you know 544 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,120 we've we've spend billions and billions 545 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:20,320 a year on it Far Far More Than People 546 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,159 realize actually and it's one of our 547 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,720 biggest industries defense is one of the 548 00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:27,000 things that Britain does um in fact 549 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,400 we're one of the top five weapon sellers 550 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,679 in the world very few English people 551 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:35,919 know that um so here we are holding this 552 00:23:32,679 --> 00:23:37,960 enormous hammer called weapons and so 553 00:23:35,919 --> 00:23:40,159 whenever there's a problem that's the 554 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,840 first resort to solving it we don't 555 00:23:40,159 --> 00:23:43,559 resort to what we were traditionally 556 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:47,279 supposed to be good at which was 557 00:23:43,559 --> 00:23:49,600 diplomacy we resort to weaponry and you 558 00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:52,120 know because we're in such close and 559 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:55,440 toxic alliance with America who has 560 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:58,200 exactly the same philosophy we we double 561 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:01,320 the amount that we do that so now we we 562 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:04,480 p in with the weapons and it's such a 563 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,640 stupid attempt at a solution it produces 564 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,320 as we can see from the history of this 565 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,679 Century let alone other ones we can see 566 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,880 that it immediately produces exactly the 567 00:24:11,679 --> 00:24:18,080 wrong results and now we're allied with 568 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,880 um a country in the form of Saudi Arabia 569 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:24,159 who is our biggest buyer of weapons 570 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:26,600 actually that's our biggest customer um 571 00:24:24,159 --> 00:24:28,559 so what is the chance that we're going 572 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,039 to actually say anything candid to to 573 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:33,559 them about the support for Isis that is 574 00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:35,799 coming out of Saudi Arabia there's no 575 00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:38,320 chance we're we're trying to fight this 576 00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:40,960 war with with somebody who's supporting 577 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,840 the the enemy you know to whom we're 578 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,039 selling a lot of weapons from which 579 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,600 we're making a lot of money and some of 580 00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:49,679 those weapons are ending up in the hands 581 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,480 of Isis yeah perhaps many of these 582 00:24:49,679 --> 00:24:55,200 weapons apparently a lot of the Isis 583 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:57,440 weapons are left over from the Iraq War 584 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,679 um they've now been sort of repatriated 585 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:03,240 by ISIS and turn against us no it's it's 586 00:25:00,679 --> 00:25:04,760 really the wrong entirely the wrong 587 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,799 solution you know we've got the hammer 588 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,120 but that isn't the nail um and hit it's 589 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:11,520 more like trying to hit a piece of 590 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:13,520 rubber it just keeps breaking and 591 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,399 stretching and turning up in other 592 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:19,240 places it's a tangled web we weave when 593 00:25:16,399 --> 00:25:20,760 first we practice to deceive yeah Brian 594 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,200 you know it's been a pleasure having you 595 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,399 on board the Sputnik have the nice time 596 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,559 in the rest of the holiday alas that's 597 00:25:25,399 --> 00:25:29,200 all we've got time for in the last show 598 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:30,679 of 2015 599 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,720 but there's more and you can stay in 600 00:25:30,679 --> 00:25:36,440 touch through Twitter on rtor Sputnik 601 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:39,000 and on Facebook Sputnik on Russia Today 602 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:42,390 happy Boxing Day from me gatri and from 603 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:45,509 me George Galloway it's been marvelous 604 00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:45,509 [Music] 605 00:25:47,570 --> 00:25:50,619 [Music]