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OT I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gatri few

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professions are as admired and respected

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as that of the firefighter when others

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flee they go forward into the fire yet

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almost without a single alarm Bell

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sounding Britain's fire Services have

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been allowed by successive governments

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of all parties to slide down the pole in

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terms of wages and conditions and more

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importantly for the rest of us Cuts in

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appliances and the closure of fire

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stations is now starting to cost lives

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Paul emby is London Secretary of the

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fire brigade Union I first met him in

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the runup to the war on Iraq when like

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me he was prominent in the effort to

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stop Britain setting fire to other

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people's countries now he's having to

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try and stop fire service Cuts setting

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fire to our own he joins us now Paul

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welcome on board the Sputnik it's the

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150th anniversary of the London fire

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brigade but is being marked by a a quite

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dramatic increase in incidents where

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people are perishing and being badly

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hurt in fires and you say and I agree

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that's partly down to Cuts I think it's

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directly attributable to Cuts we've seen

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huge cuts taking place in the London

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fire brigade particularly over the last

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two years um Boris Johnson in 2014

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closed 10 fire stations in London fire

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stations that uh collectively had been

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protecting londoners for around 900

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years um we saw 600 firefighter Jobs go

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in London as a result of that and it's

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no coincidence I think that since then

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uh response times across London have

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increased in fact across half of London

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uh Council Wards uh response times went

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up uh after those cuts took place and

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the really disturbing thing is is that a

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third of London now um the London fire

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brigade is not able to meet its own

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Target response times for the arrival of

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the first Appliance uh and you're quite

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right that that has led to a number of

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incidents particularly recently um where

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people have died in fires uh in areas

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where the local fire station has been

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closed uh and more generally to an

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increase in response times um which has

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also resulted in some people dying as

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well it's a really disturbing Trend and

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uh it's it's absolutely attributable to

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the the cut that taking place you see

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most things that politicians do I

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understand even if I disagree with them

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I understand where it comes from this

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one I can't understand we're living in

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an era where Paris style events we're

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told uh Massacre uh requiring

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multiple uh responses from the various

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emergency services are eminent are in

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the air we we wouldn't be surprised if

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we woke up to discover that something

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like that was under way and yet at the

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same time we're we're cutting our

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emergency responders I just want to add

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to that because when they're cutting

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down the NHS I I can see that they can

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afford to go to their private clinics

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but how how how how who's going to save

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them in a fire but you absolutely and I

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think the reason for that is it it's the

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whole Cuts agenda is predicated on the

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the the argument that there are fewer

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fires taking place now than there used

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to be now okay that's a fact we accept

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that but the point is the fire service

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has always done and more so now does a

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whole range of other work that uh

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doesn't involve fights and fires um we

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carry including educating people on how

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to avoid virus including educating

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people going into schools going into old

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people's homes and rescuing people from

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incidents that are non-fire related

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incidents so people who are shutting

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lifts for example people involved in

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chemical incidents people involved in

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flooding with some of the really serious

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flooding that's been going on recently

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um there are 38,000 rescues carried out

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by the fire service across the UK every

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single year there over 100 rescues a day

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um and if you if you make the argument

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that well we're having fewer fires

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therefore we should cut the fire brigade

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then I think you're completely missing

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the point and I think also that argument

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is is effectively based on the supply

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and demand argument which is not fit for

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the fire service you cannot run the fire

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service according to the laws of of

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supply demand it's got to be based

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around risk and the logic of the the

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supply and demand argument is that for

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example you would close the fire station

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at Heathrow Airport on the grounds that

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well there hasn't been a major incident

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there for a number of years that's not

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the point the point is if it did happen

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would you have the resources in place to

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be able to to do it and the logic of

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their argument is that well because

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there are a fewer fires occurring now

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then people can afford to wait longer in

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the event they are trapped in a fire

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it's it's complet non

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secretary I think G's she's got the the

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the bull point that the reason the fire

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brigade 150 years ago came into uh being

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as one fire brigade was you can't have a

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privatized response to fires you have to

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have Fire cover applicable across the

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whole territory you can't for example

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have H A Kensington and Chelsea fire

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brigade uh which is able to fight rich

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people's fires whilst barking might have

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no Fire cover at all no one would accept

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that in a in a democracy um so if you

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need a centralized centrally organized

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fire brigade then it just doesn't make

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sense to be uh cutting and cutting it

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but what's more worrying is as you said

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without hardly an alarm bell ringing

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this has happened how many londoners

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know for example that what did you say

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10 far stations have been

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closed appliances decommissioned very

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few people I think are aware of that I

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think you're right and I think the the

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history that you set out is is a correct

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one and the reason why municipal fire

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services like the London fire brigade

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came into being in the first place is

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because people saw the nonsense of

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having a private firefighting system

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that went before that where for example

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you would have insurance companies who

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would protect people from fire and

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people would have plaques on the front

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of their houses to denote which

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insurance company they belong to and in

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some cases Believe It or Not insurance

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companies would would turn out and if

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the plaque didn't represent their own

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company they turn away and go away God

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forbid s like the American Health System

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well exactly and God forbid we ever go

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back to a system which I think some of

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the more extreme people involved in the

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the fire service and within government

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would would like to see but you're quite

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right the public in many cases I don't

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think no the half of it we've lost 7,000

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Frontline firefighters since 2010 since

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this government came into into Power um

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in the last recorded year we lost 1800

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Frontline firefighter post the biggest

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loss in a single year we've seen a cut

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in central government funding of 30%

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since 2010 um and if you look at the the

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the the forecasts for the economy over

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the next few years then I don't think

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it's going to get better anytime soon so

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so it's really really serious um and

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these uh this is really impacting on

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people now I mean it's not a theoretical

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debate anymore when we argued in the

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fiber Gaz Union for years and years that

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this will result in people dying because

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they've had to to wait too long for a

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fire engine to get there we're seeing

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that now we know the names of people who

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are dying we know the families of people

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who have lost their lives because their

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local fire station has closed and

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because the fire service through no

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thought of the firefighters have taken

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too long to get there because they're

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spread too thinly so this is a real

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serious debate and it's impacting on

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people in a fundamentally serious way is

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it a British development or do you see

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this happening throughout Europe

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well I think I think it's uh I think it

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is happening throughout Europe if you

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look at the austerity and the cuts and

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the privatization um that has been

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imposed throughout Europe in in recent

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years um then it's no doubt that

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firefighting Services across the

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continent all public services in fact

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are under under huge pressure um I mean

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I have to say we've got a government in

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this country that I think is is very

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keen to to cut the fire service as much

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as it can which is a you know a complete

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about term from what it said before the

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election on the eve of the general

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election in 2010 David Cameron went to a

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fire station in carile in the north of

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England uh and gave a commitment that

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there would be no Frontline cuts to to

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the fire service and of course as soon

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as he won the vote he would he set about

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trying to to cut the fire service as

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much as he could would have th it yeah

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absolutely now the reason I'm

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particularly emotionally attached to the

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fire brigade Union is I always make this

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point that actually the existence of

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firefighters like the people you

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represent is a challenge to the idea

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that humankind is inherently selfish

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that uh the capitalist Market forces is

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the only way we can organize things

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because of course in truth if your

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members were to negotiate a separate

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deal every time they turned up a fire I

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mean if you turned up at my house and my

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children were in the house I would give

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you everything I own in order to go in

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and save them uh or or uh uh if my

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worldly goods were at risk I'd pay any

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amount of money to you and you could

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stand there saying no no you need to put

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your your offer up a bit but of course

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no firefighter does that or would dream

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of doing it they Plunge Into the Fire so

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philosophically the very existence of

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your service and the dedication of the

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people involved in it is a challenge to

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the selfishness of uh well speaking of

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this Instinct I remember this this kid

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Ania um his children play heaven um this

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new thing that they have in the country

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where they basically showed children

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introduction to the different

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professions uh they've got different

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Outlets the police the fire engine

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journalism everything yeah and the kids

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play it being yeah they pretend play it

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and they learn about it yeah yeah and

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the fire engine fire brigade is the most

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popular one the que was a mile long my

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kids could not get in to dress up as

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firefighters and get on the uh get on

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the exciting but instinctively prob it

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also indic people are are drawn to it so

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you've got this tremendous respect and

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admiration from people question is how

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we turn that into Political leverage

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isn't it I think you're right um and in

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terms of in terms of public perception

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uh yeah the the fire service has always

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been held in very great esteem and

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people say and I think there's a lot of

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Merit in it public services are

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socialism in action AR aren't they you

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know particularly the National Health

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Service where everybody pays in and if

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you need it then Society provides it for

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you free at the point of of delivery and

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it's probably the best thing as a as a

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nation we ever did to the National

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Health Service and I think our real fear

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is the the the mission creep in terms of

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privatization of the fire service I mean

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this government is talking about

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mutualization as a stepping stone

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frankly to privatization we are seeing

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chunks of the fire service not

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particularly the front line at the

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moment although in some cases yes even

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that but certainly some of the other

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functions within the fire service are

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being sold off to to the privateers um

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and I have no doubt that some of the

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Hawks within government pushing

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privatization would like to see that RI

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throughout the fire service and other

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public services and I think there is a

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real fear that we could end up back in

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those days more than 150 years ago where

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people actually have to to pay for a

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fire service otherwise they check your

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PL to see whether they're going to you

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know or not whether it whether it would

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be whether it would be something

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particularly like that but nonetheless

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where there would be a private

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firefighting service that that people in

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they said paid in um they can they can

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go swing that is a real fear how do

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people uh I mean can people if you got a

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website can people Express their support

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for the firefighters yeah I mean our our

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uh website in the fireb Union uh fbu

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dog. UK um sets out all of the campaigns

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that we're running in the fiber gazes

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Union at the moment locally and

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nationally it's not just in London there

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are huge cuts in the fire service taking

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place nationally leester she recently

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stood to lose a third of its entire

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firefighting capability fortunately the

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local firefighters run a fantastic

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campaign and have staved off some of

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those cuts um South Yorkshire Mery side

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around the country there are some real

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serious Cuts taking place and yeah we

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need people we need people behind us

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absolutely fb.org

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indeed coming up next he's walking in

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the air but his feet are squarely on

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terrafirma Howard Blake OB of Hollywood

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and Westminister don't miss it

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welcome back to Sputnik Howard Blake is

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a world famous composer Channel 4's the

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Snowman enjoyed by everyone in this

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country I would think and Dino delores's

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Flash Gordon are just two of his

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gigantic successes he's worked with

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queen and David boy but it was a story

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involving the real queen which caught my

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eye although nobody would know it unless

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like me they happen to hear it by Chance

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the pre to the Charter of the United

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Nations consists of fine words indeed

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written at the end of the second world

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war most people would interpret it as a

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determined plea for world peace and that

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is where Howard Blake obes problem came

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in Howard Blake is with us now Howard

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the preamble to the United Nations is

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just about the most stirring piece of uh

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proof