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[Music]

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okay

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I

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welcome on board spotnik with me hakara

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Mustafa and me gri you probably would

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have a better Force if you recruited

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entirely from England but it can't be

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afforded so you go from the Midlands of

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England to nepales Asians and then at

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some point you say I'm afraid all we can

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afford now is Africans no this isn't an

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extract from one of Rudyard Kipling's

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more obscure novels these were the words

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of former British army officer James

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Ellery defending EG's decision to

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recruit possible former Child soldiers

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from Sierra Leon a Danish television

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documentary revealed how a major British

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private defense contractor may have

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recruited former Child soldiers to work

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as security guards on American bases in

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Iraq in the child soldiers new job which

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aired this month it was claimed that Aus

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which is chaired by Sir Nicholas SS the

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Tory M and Grandson of Winston Churchill

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hired some 2,500 mercenaries on as

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little as 10 pounds a day in order to

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fulfill contracts to guard US military

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bases from 2004

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onwards who better to shed light on this

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extraordinary story than former British

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soldier and News correspondent Joe

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glenton Joe welcome to the show thank

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you for having me Joe the story involves

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some a Tory Grande a major figure of the

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British establishment it's received

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quite little coverage in the British

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media but before we go into the actual

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details of the story first of all what

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is the Le what are the legal Frameworks

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in which these kind of uh operations

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actually operate in in in war zones um

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there is I mean that's the central issue

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I think there is very little regulation

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mercenary companies we should call them

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what they are um avoid and resist any

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kind of legislation they they talk about

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self-regulation quite a lot but as we're

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seeing in this example and lots of

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others since the the mercenary Gold Rush

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immediately after the Iraq War um there

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is no regulation there's very little

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oversight and they have friends in high

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places the the filmmaker actually says

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that his desire really is to expose uh

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the goings on of these mercenary

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operations through this documentary do

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you believe that actually this will work

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really will will it raise the awareness

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of the public opinion well it won't uh

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it won't do any harm I think and it's

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important to expose I mean uh SS is a

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very interesting character in himself

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but the I think the more interesting

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character who is a character directly

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out of rard Kling is Brigadier Ellery

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and he's a very interesting go I don't

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know if you saw the recent adaption of

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um the night manager but the

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aristocratic arms dealer at the center

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of it Richard rer was branded the worst

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man in the world and if that was a real

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title this guy could probably compete I

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mean he was uh he served in one of the

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most elite regiments in the British army

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um he was an a to Camp to Lord mount B

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he's an absolute establishment figure um

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and interestingly his uh part of his

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background he also worked for the UN and

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during that time he was part of the

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group which demobilized child soldiers

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in si Leon which disarmed them and tried

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to help them re-enter society and now it

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sounds like um he's kind of cashing in

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off that which is a particularly kind of

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vulture-like um way to to conduct

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business I mean he defended the decision

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claiming that you can't actually control

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the situation he has defended in the

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most interesting in the most Flashman

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likee rard Kipling imperialist terms um

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because he's talking about he's almost

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talking about um hiring mercenaries um

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in a place like Sierra Leone where the

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um unemployment is very as a kind of um

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uh something which supports those

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people's human rights and is a kind of

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humanitarian act and that is precisely

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where this man exists at the meeting

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point between humanitarian operations

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the UN Etc and the private military

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industry the War Industry and he seems

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to flip very easily between Both Worlds

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what is alarming though is because

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obviously these kids are picked up at 18

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just to the point where they're actually

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legally uh it is legal for them to be to

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operate in these War zones it means that

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they've actually received training as

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child soldiers so they right for the

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picking when they're 18 and in other

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words because they're offered well

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supposedly lucrative jobs coming out

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from Sierra Leone it actually encourages

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child soldiers to work at this you know

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from the age of 12 or 13 and then be

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right to be picked up by a a mercenary

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company later on I think it does I mean

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it's it's de yeah deeply deeply um

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Sinister that these children who've been

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badly traumatized potentially are now

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being thrown into another war zone where

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they're armed again and maybe even more

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badly traumatized I mean they're not a

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known measure you don't know what will

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happen but it reminds me again it has

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this kind of colonial um kind of

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coloring to it um it's almost like years

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ago it was sending the Irish sending the

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cheapest sending the Expendable sending

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the Africans sending the Indians the

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gers and it seems to be um based on

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profit margins a kind of repeal of that

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that're sending the you know the cannon

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fodder literally I mean maybe it

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shouldn't surprise us we're in Britain

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we're one of the last countries that

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still recruits child soldiers ourselves

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and people under 18 now there's a

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campaign to stop that now but it seems

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to be really about profit from what age

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from 16 you would say originally it was

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15 and a half there's a drive to get it

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higher and higher and higher so that um

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uh people can't be recruited the last

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country in the world one of the last

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countries in Europe it does seem to be a

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reflection of this kind of backwards

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ruling class SS Ellery mentality sending

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the Expendable Cannon F I always thought

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this mercenary concept is very dodgy I

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mean it has to be based on profit

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because otherwise why would you go in

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the in the front in a war into a war

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zone if not for the money uh leaving

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your family behind uh but the way you

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talk about it's like it's like an an

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agent yeah there it's like an agent

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group just sending out and it's I mean

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as I said immediately after the the what

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we're seeing is The Tail End Of The

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Mercenary Gold Rush Iraq was flooded

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people who were nightclub bouncers were

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turning up with a rifle and saying I'm

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I've had military service lying about it

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there was a a Hu and it's still a

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multi-million dollar um industry but we

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seem to be at the tail end of that but

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of course mercenaries also fit into the

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the kind of new um the the various

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strands which the government has had to

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adopt because it's very unpopular to

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send soldiers in Mass occupations like

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Iraq and Afghanistan where I so people

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aren't sympathetic towards mercenaries

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and it's another strand um for how the

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war on terror is being fought now you

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have the mercenaries you have the

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Special Forces you have drones have

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cyber warfare you have air strikes uh

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because they can't afford to commit

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large amounts of troops it's very

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unpopulated it's death in the kind of

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limited democracy we have here and in

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the case of Tony Blair it's also a

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political suicide yeah yeah exactly um

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you know so it's a kind of a it's a

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fallback but of course it has impacts in

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Iraq and in Africa coming back on the

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issue of the war on terror okay there is

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the it's very opaque within the war zone

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the legal framework but in Britain it's

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very clear isn't there at least very

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officially a conflict of interest when

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you have lawmakers actually voting for

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Wars and then going on to profit from

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the postwar sort of uh sure sure I mean

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I think um briger Eller is a brilliant

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example of this though he's not a

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lawmaker but he's an example of this

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this strange Dynamic and SS as well but

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I know Ellery was involved in Paul

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braimer who set up the kind of uh

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Colonial Administration in Iraq he was

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part of his staff and I mean it's I mean

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there is a huge conflict of interest but

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it really depends what we can do about

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it how we can legislate for it but again

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there does have to be a framework um and

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you're right I mean it's outrageous that

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people are voting for Wars uh and then

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profiting from it though it's not new is

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there some sort of campaign to raise

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awareness about the situation some very

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good work has been done I remember there

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was a report um in January by waron one

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which out you're probably familiar with

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and they did a big investigative report

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which they often do and they do it very

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well into um the mercenary industry in

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the UK and how close it is I think there

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are various companies up in Herford next

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to the headquarters of the Special Air

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Service and they recruit directly out of

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there so this stuff is going on it is

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being exposed but of course I mean and

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this is why the use of mercenaries is so

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popular because people don't have the

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same sympathy um but I mean there are

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campaigns people are trying to do it I

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know a lot I mean a group of veterans

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who are committed to peace activism we

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try and touch on it as well and are they

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working perhaps with African governments

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um I mean it if they're not they should

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start I don't know exactly what the the

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terrain looks like there in terms of

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activism and trying to get things done

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but fundamentally it has to be

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legislated for um and these people have

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to be controlled uh I understand you

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served in Afghanistan um was there a

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sort of similar scenario going on in in

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Afghanistan there was there was lots of

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mercenaries in Afghanistan though

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sometimes it's hard to pick out who's

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mercenary in whose Special Forces cuz

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they have this kind of quazar uniform of

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half military equipment and a rifle and

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then half civilian so genes and a caml

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shirt um and both of those groups wear

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the same thing but there's also a

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broader issue I think not just of

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military um military

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personel um a lot of them were UK and

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lots of South Africans um Americans and

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people like that with big zzy top beards

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and soff weapons and what's the Rapport

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between actual official soldiers and

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these mercenaries um in certain units in

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units like the rawal Marines and the par

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of the elite units I those guys would

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know people I have friends from those

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kind of units who also spent time as

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mercenaries out in Iraq or Afghanistan

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and in Africa and other places Libya um

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Nigeria is a big one as well um but

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there's actually a kind of um uh the

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military at one point was very very

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concerned that it was losing highly

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trained Special Forces Personnel because

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the mercenary companies were competing

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with them and saying well we'll give you

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even more money to do this far easier

275
00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:00,440
job guarding an installation guarding a

276
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,200
convoy um but it's I mean it's a very um

277
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Advanced and very um wealthy industry

278
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and the government is involved I

279
00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:09,079
understand in 2012 the foreign office

280
00:10:05,839 --> 00:10:10,640
spent 50 million of taxpayers money on

281
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um private security for its various

282
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installations in embassies and things

283
00:10:12,279 --> 00:10:15,839
like that if only the public knew that

284
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yeah this is number and you're right

285
00:10:15,839 --> 00:10:19,120
it's under reported and people need to

286
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,279
know because in that case it's taxpayers

287
00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,880
money yeah exactly there's uh there's

288
00:10:21,279 --> 00:10:25,160
talk obviously of sending further troops

289
00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:28,320
in Libya in order to sort of try and and

290
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rectify the mess that was caused back in

291
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,880
2011 do you believe that part of this

292
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would be sort of in collaboration with

293
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,600
some of these companies to profit from

294
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the situation and send these mercenary

295
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,800
companies I suspect companies like AIS

296
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and G4S who we all know um are waiting

297
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,639
with baited breath to descend on Libya

298
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my view is to send in any kind of the

299
00:10:46,639 --> 00:10:50,480
SAS are already there we know that um

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but to send in any kind of troops to to

301
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,519
Libya as a component in an Italian

302
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,440
Brigade given the history of Italy and

303
00:10:54,519 --> 00:11:00,120
Libya would be some somewhere between uh

304
00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:02,079
uh Rock's drift and um that black HW

305
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,000
down it would be an absolute disaster

306
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with austerity biting now and you know

307
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,959
unemployment Rising do you believe that

308
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at some point we we'll be seeing sort of

309
00:11:08,959 --> 00:11:13,040
British squatties treated a bit like the

310
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African Child soldiers and sent off for

311
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,079
for under 20 quid a day maybe

312
00:11:14,839 --> 00:11:17,440
potentially I mean it's very difficult

313
00:11:16,079 --> 00:11:19,320
to say a lot of soldiers leave the

314
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,200
military to to absolute poverty and they

315
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,560
have nothing but I think at least in the

316
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,360
estimation of um Brigadier Ellery he

317
00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:27,200
would rather have he would rather have

318
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,839
British soldiers so I think that they

319
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,519
would cost slightly more but I mean who

320
00:11:28,839 --> 00:11:32,519
can say going to happen in in the

321
00:11:30,519 --> 00:11:34,200
economic climate we have now and but do

322
00:11:32,519 --> 00:11:36,639
you think there'd be opposition I mean

323
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,320
or or or perhaps in this sort of class

324
00:11:36,639 --> 00:11:40,240
Warfare going on and the idea that you

325
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,079
can send African kids or perhaps

326
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,360
workingclass kids then there would be

327
00:11:42,079 --> 00:11:45,800
this the idea would be perfectly

328
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,279
acceptable um maybe I don't I mean

329
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,839
you've got to see how it how it how it

330
00:11:47,279 --> 00:11:50,320
pans out but it's possible but it would

331
00:11:48,839 --> 00:11:51,680
be interesting because at the very least

332
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,320
that would raise awareness in British

333
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:56,560
public uh and probably sort of create

334
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,240
opposition to this practice sure I mean

335
00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:01,480
again there is a political imperative

336
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,560
behind this it's um it's very painful to

337
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,600
see white British soldiers or former

338
00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:07,720
soldiers dying that's very unpopular

339
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,360
it's easier to send in the Irish send in

340
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:12,800
the people of color um and so on it's

341
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,279
it's politically um an easier ride for

342
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,839
the people who back these mercenary

343
00:12:14,279 --> 00:12:18,120
companies and vote for Wars thank you

344
00:12:15,839 --> 00:12:20,399
very much Doug lanton coming up next

345
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:24,560
trouble in Paradise we'll be talking

346
00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:24,560
about the latest in Brazil stay

347
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,040
[Music]

348
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:32,760
tuned welcome back back on board the

349
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Sputnik it was first to be the highlight

350
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,600
of 2016 but less than four months to go

351
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before the Olympic opening ceremony in

352
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,000
Rio de Janeiro in Brazil and the games

353
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have now been reduced to an

354
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:48,000
insignificant talking point earlier this

355
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:50,279
month 73% of the lower house of Congress

356
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,399
voted in favor of dilar Rusev's

357
00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:55,199
impeachment thrusting the president's

358
00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:57,720
Workers Party into disarray although

359
00:12:55,199 --> 00:13:00,519
initially a popular politician Rusev

360
00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,800
began to suffer increased criticism in

361
00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:05,079
Congress and in the press as Brazil's

362
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,760
one's formidable status among the

363
00:13:05,079 --> 00:13:10,120
world's foremost economies went into

364
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,360
reverse the PT's ambitious social

365
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,920
housing program aimed at benefiting the

366
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,079
poorest was funded by oil and a

367
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:20,040
Commodities boom that began some 15

368
00:13:17,079 --> 00:13:22,920
years ago however with Brazil slipping

369
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:25,240
into recession in 2015 coupled with a

370
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,560
corruption investigation implicating

371
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,120
politician from all parties the South

372
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,839
American nation's shining star has begun

373
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,519
to

374
00:13:30,839 --> 00:13:36,839
falter the bricks Club once's most

375
00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:38,440
promising country is in crisis to

376
00:13:36,839 --> 00:13:41,079
understand how this is likely to impact

377
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:43,079
South America and Beyond Is Peruvian

378
00:13:41,079 --> 00:13:45,839
born journalist and media specialist

379
00:13:43,079 --> 00:13:48,480
Javier far Javier welcome on board the

380
00:13:45,839 --> 00:13:52,160
spck thank you for having me D marusa

381
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,920
was the heir of uh Lula exactly who came

382
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,720
you know who left brilliant and

383
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,240
Brilliant mandate and where did it all

384
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,880
go wrong for dma well as you mentioned

385
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,120
in your introduction

386
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:05,440
uh the the sort of the decline and the

387
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:09,720
boom of Commodities export uh mainly

388
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:12,120
because of China's economic WS um in a

389
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:16,199
way contributed to the situation the

390
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:19,880
other thing is that um she was not Lula

391
00:14:16,199 --> 00:14:24,399
she could not match the Charisma and and

392
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:27,440
and also the she could not inherit the

393
00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:30,399
economic growth that Lula had and enable

394
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:32,040
him to afford social programs while he

395
00:14:30,399 --> 00:14:35,240
was following more less Orthodox

396
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,880
economic policies and that created

397
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:40,279
Brazil has this the strongest domestic

398
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:43,160
Market in Latin America therefore the

399
00:14:40,279 --> 00:14:45,560
dependency on export was not as big as

400
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:48,800
it like Peru or or the countries in the

401
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:51,399
region um and that uh people started to

402
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,680
lose confidence the consumer started to

403
00:14:51,399 --> 00:14:55,000
lose confidence uh that affected

404
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,920
investment so there was kind of like a

405
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,839
domino effect that made it uh you know

406
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:03,120
possible for for the economy to start

407
00:14:59,839 --> 00:15:04,959
going down um the corruption scand that

408
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,079
you mentioned now we have to be we have

409
00:15:04,959 --> 00:15:09,639
to point out very clearly as you rightly

410
00:15:07,079 --> 00:15:11,639
said that it seems that every political

411
00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:13,680
party members of every political party

412
00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:17,160
in Brazil are involved in this

413
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,120
corruption scandal at least 60% of MPS

414
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,079
of members of parliament have something

415
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,959
to do with this Scandal of corruption

416
00:15:21,079 --> 00:15:26,279
however Dilma has not been touched by it

417
00:15:23,959 --> 00:15:28,079
directly there's no evidence that she

418
00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:29,600
has been involved in corruption but she

419
00:15:28,079 --> 00:15:31,680
but she's been leading the country and

420
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,399
sort of almost allow the climate in

421
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,040
which this corruption sort of fested

422
00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:37,040
that is the criticism they made of her

423
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,199
that she let the whole thing go that she

424
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,920
didn't come hard on the actual

425
00:15:39,199 --> 00:15:43,720
investigation of this corruption um that

426
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,120
members of the Workers Party were

427
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,720
involved in that and she did nothing

428
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,759
about it uh when she was in Petras which

429
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,680
is the origin of the the Big Oil state

430
00:15:49,759 --> 00:15:54,600
owned company which is at the core of

431
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,759
this corruption Scandal she was in the

432
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,639
board before she became president she

433
00:15:56,759 --> 00:15:59,720
didn't she was not corrupt that she did

434
00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:03,600
not

435
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:06,399
control certain trading sort of you know

436
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,959
uh operations that the company had that

437
00:16:06,399 --> 00:16:11,519
led to corruption things so yes he he's

438
00:16:08,959 --> 00:16:13,240
been accused basically being negligent

439
00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:15,079
the reasons for the impeachment we have

440
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,120
to be very clear many independent

441
00:16:15,079 --> 00:16:18,720
analysts consider they are not strong

442
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,279
enough for her to be impeached she's

443
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,399
been accused of cooking the books to

444
00:16:20,279 --> 00:16:25,279
make the economy look better than it was

445
00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:27,040
now we have that experience in the UK

446
00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:30,160
every Everybody every government does

447
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:32,079
that uh but basically there's there

448
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,120
there's an element of people being being

449
00:16:32,079 --> 00:16:36,560
tired of of of the corruption and they

450
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,040
use this as a reason as an excuse if you

451
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,319
like to impeach her at the same time all

452
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,079
the other parties that were part of the

453
00:16:40,319 --> 00:16:43,399
Coalition because of the corruption

454
00:16:42,079 --> 00:16:45,079
Scandal they didn't feel that they were

455
00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:47,680
able to stay in the Coalition so she was

456
00:16:45,079 --> 00:16:49,120
getting more and more isolated and as a

457
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,800
result of this situation we have this

458
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,319
impeachment which is not helping the

459
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,800
economy by the way because people are

460
00:16:52,319 --> 00:16:55,800
starting to when there's political

461
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,360
instability in the country people say we

462
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,240
don't want to invest there so I'm trying

463
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,800
to understand how this economic crisis

464
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:04,360
is being displayed in society you said

465
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,880
earlier that Rusev is not like Lula just

466
00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:09,559
as Maduro is not Chavez these are huge

467
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,160
Stars bit difficult to follow well in

468
00:17:09,559 --> 00:17:13,839
Venezuela it's very obvious we read

469
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:16,720
constantly how they are literally out of

470
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:20,480
toilet paper out of bread it it's very

471
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:22,760
very very tangible um I just remember

472
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,959
recently from uh the scenes in Brazil

473
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,039
about the protests about bus fairs how

474
00:17:24,959 --> 00:17:29,000
how is it displaying in society well

475
00:17:27,039 --> 00:17:30,520
okay you would mention Venezuela we have

476
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,160
to understand that one of the reasons

477
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,360
why the situation is so bad in Venezuela

478
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,880
is low oil prices in the international

479
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:39,080
markets that has affected hugely because

480
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,520
the budgets in Venezuela are planed

481
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,200
based on the current price of oil

482
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,160
there's no money but this is what's

483
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,760
worrying about Brazil because obviously

484
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,480
Venezuela is an O dependent economy but

485
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,919
Brazil wasn't and it actually managed

486
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:55,080
very efficiently to to expand absolutely

487
00:17:52,919 --> 00:17:56,520
that is the pro that's why when when it

488
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,679
because the internal Market was so

489
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,320
strong and the internal Market started

490
00:17:57,679 --> 00:18:00,480
to collapse that's when when the economy

491
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,120
started to go wrong and we have the

492
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,520
biggest recession in Brazil since the

493
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:07,159
1930s that is the problem you see and of

494
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,799
course that has a domino effect in Latin

495
00:18:07,159 --> 00:18:11,360
America because many countries that

496
00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:12,600
trade with with with Brazil can't do it

497
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:13,960
cannot do it anymore because the

498
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,840
internal Market is really really

499
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,480
collapsing there's lack of Confidence

500
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,080
from the consumer there's lack of

501
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,440
confidence on the account of from the

502
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,200
part of the invest investors the social

503
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,720
inst the political instability is making

504
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,919
things even worse because even after the

505
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:31,720
impeachment was voted in by Parliament

506
00:18:28,919 --> 00:18:33,080
the the were the the the business sector

507
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,159
were saying oh now we the economy is

508
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,840
going to start going up well it hasn't

509
00:18:35,159 --> 00:18:38,440
the strong markets in in in Brazil have

510
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,280
not gone up because of the impeachment

511
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:43,159
on the contrary they need political

512
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,200
stability so once the internal Market in

513
00:18:43,159 --> 00:18:46,559
Brazil collapses and starts going wrong

514
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,120
that's when it's difficult for the

515
00:18:46,559 --> 00:18:50,520
government to sort of sort solve it it's

516
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,559
understandable that D Mar Rusev would

517
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,159
want to challenge these decisions but

518
00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:56,000
isn't she sort of doing her country a

519
00:18:54,159 --> 00:18:57,600
disservice by remaining and maybe it

520
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,520
would be sort of patriotic decision for

521
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,200
her to step down at this moment and

522
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,159
clear the air perhaps but you have to

523
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,520
also question the legitimacy of the

524
00:19:03,159 --> 00:19:08,480
impeachment

525
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:11,000
process to understand why L dma ROV is

526
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,760
resisting she was democratically

527
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:17,320
elected now when you have a member of

528
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:19,840
parliament quoting and praising an army

529
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:22,480
officer who tortured dma ROV when dma

530
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,240
ROV was a political prisoner to justifi

531
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,360
imp pment there's something very wrong

532
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:29,240
with the opposition and you understand

533
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:32,559
why the Workers Party are reluctant to

534
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,679
let ROV fall yeah because there's a lot

535
00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:36,679
of personal Vendetta against her but

536
00:19:34,679 --> 00:19:39,960
also you have this far right and right

537
00:19:36,679 --> 00:19:41,559
wing M peace who want to bring her down

538
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,039
and many of them want to cover them

539
00:19:41,559 --> 00:19:45,799
their own tracks because they are

540
00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:48,840
involved in corruption themselves so by

541
00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:50,039
impeaching her they are also distracting

542
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,240
the attention from the actual

543
00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:53,880
investigation of this scandals yes I'm

544
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,480
not saying that dilar has done a very

545
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:59,640
good job she has been

546
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:01,280
clumsy in if if we could us that word in

547
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,120
managing the situation because she

548
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,640
doesn't have the Charisma and the

549
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,919
abilities that President Lula had but on

550
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,240
the other hand the opposition is not

551
00:20:06,919 --> 00:20:12,159
offering an alternative and that is that

552
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:14,559
is why and and she's still followed by

553
00:20:12,159 --> 00:20:17,240
millions don't forget that Brazil is a

554
00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:19,880
very polarized uh you know country if

555
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,960
you go to Brazilia before the debates in

556
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,559
Parliament they had to build a metal

557
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:27,440
wall that cross almost all the capital

558
00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:29,240
of Brazil to separate Pro and anti-

559
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,039
Dilma and that

560
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,840
that b is a metaphor of the divisions

561
00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:35,679
that happen in Brazil between the poor

562
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,480
north where there's a lot of landlords

563
00:20:35,679 --> 00:20:41,080
and poor people and the rich South and

564
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,960
that's reflected in the whole thing so

565
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,960
yes you can criticize Dilma for what

566
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,840
she's done but at the same time that

567
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,000
doesn't give the opposition especially

568
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,000
the ring opposition the legitimacy they

569
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,760
claim to have that we're heroes of

570
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,880
democracy well sorry but if you're

571
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,039
appraising an army officer who Tor to D

572
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,679
Rous when she was fighting for democracy

573
00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:01,799
I'm not really sure you can claim any

574
00:20:58,679 --> 00:21:04,240
kind of moral ethical standards or any

575
00:21:01,799 --> 00:21:05,919
moral authority to impeach the president

576
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,280
so I understand why she's resisting this

577
00:21:05,919 --> 00:21:09,480
this movement and do you feel that she

578
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,240
can survive no I think it's very

579
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,440
difficult I think it's going to be very

580
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,360
difficult for her to survive because if

581
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,000
the Senate approves the impeachment

582
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:18,919
process then the trial will start and

583
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:21,880
then she might have to go um there could

584
00:21:18,919 --> 00:21:24,240
be a compromise maybe

585
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,520
um it it looks very difficult at the

586
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,159
moment nothing I mean Brazilian politics

587
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,880
are very unpredictable so anything could

588
00:21:28,159 --> 00:21:31,480
happen but it doesn't look good for her

589
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,679
it doesn't look she has of course a very

590
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:36,880
strong rightwing opposition I'm curious

591
00:21:33,679 --> 00:21:38,760
to what extent foreigners foreign

592
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:43,120
elements are involved in

593
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:47,000
that it doesn't suit the us to have a a

594
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:48,799
political crisis in in Brazil now even

595
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,559
Bush got along pretty well with

596
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:55,600
Lula because the us we're talking about

597
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:58,200
us yeah let's face it um Brazil is the

598
00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:01,240
biggest economy in Latin America uh

599
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,840
before Lula became president um Brazil

600
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,640
was quite isolated from the rest of

601
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,120
Latin America for historical reasons

602
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,640
they speak Portuguese they were

603
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:11,159
conquered by the by Portugal we the rest

604
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,159
Latin America Spanish etc etc that was

605
00:22:11,159 --> 00:22:14,840
but Lula started to integrate Brazil

606
00:22:13,159 --> 00:22:16,960
more into the Latin American family if

607
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,480
you want to use that expression which

608
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,159
means that Brazil has has had a great

609
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,799
deal of influence in the rest of

610
00:22:21,159 --> 00:22:26,039
especially South America it doesn't suit

611
00:22:23,799 --> 00:22:28,640
the us to have political instability in

612
00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:31,600
Brazil so I don't really think it's in

613
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,640
interest of the US to destabilize Brazil

614
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,840
because at the end of the day Lula was

615
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,799
very consiliary in terms of trading

616
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,880
agreements with with the US even though

617
00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:43,000
and he was criticized by some part of

618
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:45,279
the left for being too nice to the

619
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,799
Americans but at the same time the

620
00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:48,919
people who outside Brazil might be

621
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:52,799
interested like the right Wings in in in

622
00:22:48,919 --> 00:22:55,240
Colombia or or or Venezuela to let

623
00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:57,480
Brazil for because that would help uh

624
00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:00,400
against Maduro so just one last Point

625
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,159
rather briefly how will the sort of well

626
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,880
not collapse really but this crisis of

627
00:23:02,159 --> 00:23:06,799
Brazil how will it impact the rest of

628
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:10,600
South America but L because Olympics

629
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:12,720
well yes I mean how she might still be

630
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,520
president when the Olympics take place

631
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,799
because of the whole impeachment process

632
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:20,960
quite long uh but he would be a lame

633
00:23:17,799 --> 00:23:22,799
duck sort of President one uh in terms

634
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,520
of the rest of Latin America because

635
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:27,200
everybody has been looking up at Brazil

636
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,840
then people will feel a bit lost like

637
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,799
okay our biggest economy the biggest

638
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,440
country has collapsed what are we going

639
00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:35,760
to do about this uh unasur which is the

640
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,960
UN Unity of the organization that

641
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,720
unifies South American countries would

642
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,600
probably rally around Brazil because

643
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,960
they cannot nobody can afford to let

644
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,840
Brazil collapse it's far too big far too

645
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:49,279
important far too rich far too you know

646
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,840
relevant for them to let it to let it

647
00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:53,440
down so maybe the other Latin American

648
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,679
countries might try to mediate to find

649
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,159
some kind of compromise because there's

650
00:23:54,679 --> 00:23:59,320
no leader in the opposition in in in

651
00:23:57,159 --> 00:24:01,120
Brazil like it happens in who might be

652
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,679
able to take over and say yes I am going

653
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:05,159
to save this none of them are capable to

654
00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:06,600
do that on this point I'm afraid we have

655
00:24:05,159 --> 00:24:08,630
to leave it thank you very much a you've

656
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,000
been a great

657
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:12,799
[Music]

658
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,480
guest now you've heard from our experts

659
00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:17,880
let's see what the Twitter sphere has to

660
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,960
say k uh well we asked what actually can

661
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,320
be done to stop child soldiers being

662
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,919
used in conflicts and War zones Stephen

663
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,840
Gib says ceasing foreign aid to the

664
00:24:25,919 --> 00:24:31,120
countries responsible would be a start

665
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,320
and Jay shinger says well stop selling

666
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:35,080
the bad guys weapons that sounds a bit

667
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,080
like victim blaming because obviously

668
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,760
selling arms to countries that are being

669
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,840
exploited doesn't make much sense I

670
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:44,360
agree but then gry McAdam says a higher

671
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,080
quality of world leaders that would be a

672
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:48,919
better option because that's really

673
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,880
what's supervising this all right under

674
00:24:48,919 --> 00:24:54,320
which this is happening something we'

675
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:57,279
all like actually on Latin America Jason

676
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,880
allander says it seems like the USA is

677
00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:02,039
getting its death grip back on Latin

678
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:05,000
America and that's what it seems like to

679
00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:07,559
me as well I have to say I do slightly

680
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,480
agree even if I if I guess wasn't really

681
00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:10,559
going along that line but yes there does

682
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,880
seem to be some sort of foreign

683
00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:15,720
interference yes Venezuela Argentina and

684
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,399
a rise of rightwing elements in all

685
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,760
these countries and those are all the

686
00:25:17,399 --> 00:25:22,120
tweets for this week and that's all we

687
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,799
have time for on Sputnik with me have

688
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:26,640
Sakara Mustafa and me gatri but you can

689
00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:29,640
stay in touch with us through Twitter at

690
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:33,810
rtor Sputnik or on Facebook Sputnik on

691
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:37,030
Russia today until next week it's been

692
00:25:33,810 --> 00:25:37,030
[Music]

693
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,600
marvelous