1
00:00:01,490 --> 00:00:15,990
[Music]

2
00:00:12,679 --> 00:00:27,959
Security. I get

3
00:00:15,990 --> 00:00:27,959
[Music]

4
00:00:32,330 --> 00:00:36,960
[Music]

5
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,960
Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

6
00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,360
with me, George Galloway, and me,

7
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,160
Gayatri. There's an awful lot of coffee

8
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,760
in Brazil, as the jingle famously said.

9
00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:48,160
An awful lot of corruption in the

10
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,399
political class, too. Almost every party

11
00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:53,840
has its leader either on trial, awaiting

12
00:00:50,399 --> 00:00:55,920
trial, or with charges looming. The one

13
00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,879
person not accused of any personal

14
00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,800
dishonesty is the president, Dilarus.

15
00:00:58,879 --> 00:01:03,280
So, of course, he's the one that's being

16
00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,680
thrown out of the office. In a fairly

17
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:08,640
impressively executed maneuver, the

18
00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:11,920
workers party presidency is no more.

19
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:15,119
After 12 years, their 54 million votes

20
00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:17,920
swept aside. With the death of Chavez,

21
00:01:15,119 --> 00:01:21,280
the travailes of Maduro, the defeat and

22
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:23,920
now trial of Kchner, are we beginning to

23
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,560
see the end of the process in Latin

24
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:30,080
America? Joining us to discuss this is

25
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:34,119
Dr. Karolina Mats of City University in

26
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:37,600
London. Dr. Mats, thanks for joining us.

27
00:01:34,119 --> 00:01:41,280
Let's establish this first. Is the

28
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:44,240
workers party presidency over or is

29
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,799
there any possibility of her coming back

30
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,720
from the dead as it were? That is a very

31
00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:51,759
good question and that is the key of

32
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,600
what the country is currently facing. Um

33
00:01:51,759 --> 00:01:56,360
the fact of the matter is that in the

34
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:59,200
last two months that's there's been a

35
00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:03,360
growing dissatisfaction with the whole

36
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:07,040
impeachment process and this has

37
00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:09,920
resulted in the last days with also an

38
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:12,640
anger towards the new current government

39
00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:15,599
and the ways in which it is has in only

40
00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:18,640
three or four days in office reversed

41
00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:21,040
many rights including extincting the

42
00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:23,680
Ministry of Culture um human rights

43
00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:27,200
rights, uh, equality, race, the

44
00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:30,480
secretary of women, um, also talking

45
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:33,519
about, uh, revisiting many of the social

46
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:36,720
programs and benefits. So, there's a lot

47
00:02:33,519 --> 00:02:38,400
of anger now and also a few people who

48
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,440
had voted for the impeachment because

49
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,599
they were upset because of after 13

50
00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:46,640
years of government. Um there were many

51
00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:49,599
mistakes that the left did including um

52
00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:51,760
uh not just in the economy but also

53
00:02:49,599 --> 00:02:53,920
regarding some members of its parties

54
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,760
who had been involved in corruption. So

55
00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:58,080
these people were disillusioned but now

56
00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,840
they are also seeing that perhaps the

57
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,720
impeachment thing was not a good idea

58
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:05,120
after all. So the future is still

59
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:08,159
uncertain. Um there has been a serious

60
00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:10,000
defeat. Yes. But there's also a

61
00:03:08,159 --> 00:03:13,760
perspective that this either could lead

62
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:16,480
to new elections or to a possibility of

63
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:19,400
her returning or to the continuity of

64
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:22,319
Tema. What is certain is that Temer

65
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:25,280
himself, the person who is now acting

66
00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:27,519
president of Lebanese extraction like so

67
00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:31,159
many that's right uh politicians in

68
00:03:27,519 --> 00:03:34,000
Latin America in recent times is himself

69
00:03:31,159 --> 00:03:36,000
facing exactly the same kind of

70
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,120
corruption allegations. and there's a

71
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,280
process underway that might well put him

72
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:44,959
in the dock. And so that doesn't sound

73
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:47,040
like a very stable uh situation to me.

74
00:03:44,959 --> 00:03:49,040
That's true. But it also looks like the

75
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,040
High Supreme Court is not going to take

76
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:54,640
that forward from what I've seen in the

77
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:58,000
last um few days. The fact of the matter

78
00:03:54,640 --> 00:04:01,599
is that um the justice system has shown

79
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,920
itself to be very biased and against the

80
00:04:01,599 --> 00:04:05,840
workers party. um despite of the fact

81
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:09,519
that the car wash investigations have

82
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:12,000
been good in many ways of having um put

83
00:04:09,519 --> 00:04:14,480
some corrupt politicians um in jail. The

84
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,560
car was operation being the petrol bus.

85
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,799
Yes, that's right. The fact of the

86
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:22,240
matter is that for instance it has been

87
00:04:18,799 --> 00:04:24,639
very lenient on the right-wing

88
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,960
politicians such as Eduardo Kuinga that

89
00:04:24,639 --> 00:04:29,120
has only been taken out now after the

90
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,840
impeachment when this had been ongoing

91
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:34,479
for more than a year and he was doing

92
00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:36,800
everything um in Congress and acting

93
00:04:34,479 --> 00:04:39,680
threatening people even and he was not

94
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:43,919
put aside and so the thing with Tema now

95
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:47,360
is also a question mark will they really

96
00:04:43,919 --> 00:04:50,320
force this forward. Um, another person

97
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:53,120
who has also been uh uh involved in

98
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:56,240
allegations of corruption is Ast from

99
00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:59,040
the Pestir, the opposition party who was

100
00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,800
defeated four times in a row and also

101
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,600
was defeated with he was the

102
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:06,720
presidential candidate when when Dilma

103
00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:09,039
ran for her election in 2014. And from

104
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:12,080
that day one when he lost that is when

105
00:05:09,039 --> 00:05:15,039
they started to create the whole climate

106
00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:18,120
towards the impeachment. and he has been

107
00:05:15,039 --> 00:05:20,960
um accused eight times in the car wash

108
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:24,960
investigations. Only in the last month

109
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:27,280
did the justice um um court decide to

110
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,759
investigate him and they put this

111
00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:31,639
forward to the Supreme Court. But in one

112
00:05:29,759 --> 00:05:33,759
day they already suspended the

113
00:05:31,639 --> 00:05:36,000
investigation. So that means it's not

114
00:05:33,759 --> 00:05:38,720
going to continue. So this is another

115
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:41,600
element that has emerged in this crisis

116
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:44,479
is the the disillusionment that people

117
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:47,120
have had with Brazilian institutions

118
00:05:44,479 --> 00:05:50,160
when people were thinking that actually

119
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:52,039
it was about cleaning the corruption

120
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,720
process. It was actually something

121
00:05:52,039 --> 00:05:57,280
serious. Again, in the last months,

122
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,880
people have started to doubt this, which

123
00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:01,280
is why The Guardian, for instance, in

124
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,039
its editorial highlighted that the whole

125
00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:05,360
Brazilian political system was the one

126
00:06:03,039 --> 00:06:08,720
that needed to be on trial, not just a

127
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,639
blaming of one person. Of course, uh,

128
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:13,440
scorpions sting because they're

129
00:06:10,639 --> 00:06:15,120
scorpions and right-wing forces act in

130
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:18,639
the way that they do because they are

131
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:22,400
right-wing forces. I'm more concerned

132
00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:25,759
with looking at the workers party and

133
00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:28,880
its mistakes and shortcomings

134
00:06:25,759 --> 00:06:35,120
uh because that's of Brazilian but also

135
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:40,680
wider uh importance. Now I was struck

136
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:44,280
uh as someone who lent $200 to Lula in

137
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:49,039
1983. Now think of the interest on

138
00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:52,160
that. I was struck by the fact that the

139
00:06:49,039 --> 00:06:55,919
workers party today has only around a

140
00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:58,880
million members in a population of 200

141
00:06:55,919 --> 00:07:02,160
million. British Labor Party has getting

142
00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:05,840
on for a million in a country that is uh

143
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:08,400
a third of the size. Why is the Workers

144
00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:14,039
Party not bigger?

145
00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:18,680
Why has the high hopes of Lula's initial

146
00:07:14,039 --> 00:07:22,479
political entry into power appear to

147
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:25,000
have dissipated so much that not one

148
00:07:22,479 --> 00:07:27,680
worker in Brazil is on strike over all

149
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,880
this? Not a shot has been fired in

150
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:33,280
defense of the workers party government.

151
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,280
These are hard facts that we have to

152
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,919
confront. What's your analysis of that?

153
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,479
Well, this has this is very complex, but

154
00:07:37,919 --> 00:07:42,639
it has to do with first the

155
00:07:40,479 --> 00:07:44,720
disillusionment that most of the left

156
00:07:42,639 --> 00:07:47,840
has had with the party, which was

157
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,759
basically um when it entered politics,

158
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,000
it it said that it was going to change

159
00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:54,879
the whole ethical procedure and

160
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:57,800
unfortunately it had to adapt to the

161
00:07:54,879 --> 00:08:01,199
whole structure in terms of um being

162
00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,960
omissive or lenient towards corruption.

163
00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:06,800
Another thing has also been the fact

164
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:08,400
that this um dissatisfaction coming in

165
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,319
from the left that you say and from

166
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:13,199
workers has grown particularly in the

167
00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:16,080
last two to three years when the economy

168
00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:18,400
started to go down and the recession hit

169
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,720
and this was something that Dilma for

170
00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,639
instance did not manage to handle

171
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,879
properly and that started to produce

172
00:08:23,639 --> 00:08:30,639
unemployment. So you combine that recipe

173
00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:32,719
of corruption allegations, a strong also

174
00:08:30,639 --> 00:08:35,599
campaign coming from the right taking

175
00:08:32,719 --> 00:08:38,880
the advantage of that plus a media

176
00:08:35,599 --> 00:08:42,240
coverage highly uh questionable and

177
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,680
partisan including uh journalists,

178
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,320
former journalists like myself and

179
00:08:43,680 --> 00:08:48,000
others who have been brought up with a

180
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,200
professional objective mainstream

181
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:54,680
journalism criticizing from inside the

182
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:58,800
mainstream media. uh resulted in this

183
00:08:54,680 --> 00:09:01,040
explosive uh h a sense that in order to

184
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,120
solve the problems um the impeachment

185
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:06,000
was the best solution. So it's a

186
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,160
combination of factors right and the

187
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:11,279
assessment of the good things that the

188
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:14,320
workers party have done in the last uh

189
00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:16,399
uh uh decades also have been minimized

190
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,279
in the mainstream media. So the

191
00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:21,600
perception was much more the negative

192
00:09:19,279 --> 00:09:23,440
than the positive and this culminated in

193
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,440
the lack of support. But as of what I've

194
00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,839
said in the beginning, what has happened

195
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,640
in the last two or 3 months is that

196
00:09:27,839 --> 00:09:33,200
people are waking up to the reality of

197
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,519
how the situation's much more complex

198
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,519
than a black and white scenario of the

199
00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:40,640
good guys and the bad guys. Well, on the

200
00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:44,320
subject of black and white, Gatri had a

201
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:46,399
a point to make about the makeup of the

202
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:49,680
new cabinet. which is obviously all

203
00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:52,720
white European descendant and all men

204
00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:55,680
and then in um to compensate that Tammer

205
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,440
I I I understand has appointed the the e

206
00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:59,839
economic or the bank with the with the

207
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,160
female head but how is that being

208
00:09:59,839 --> 00:10:05,040
perceived in Brazil? Well, it's been

209
00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:07,519
highly criticized. And the thing is, as

210
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,680
I mentioned before when I talked about

211
00:10:07,519 --> 00:10:11,360
the campaign of the right, we need to

212
00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:13,600
understand the difference between what

213
00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,480
the right in Brazil is, the conservative

214
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,800
sectors, towards what the right is in

215
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:21,720
Europe and in the UK. What you have

216
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,399
there in Brazil is a right that is

217
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,079
extremely

218
00:10:23,399 --> 00:10:29,920
traditional conservative with values

219
00:10:26,079 --> 00:10:32,320
that date back some argue to the 1960s

220
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,880
of the dictatorship or we can even take

221
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,120
this as far as the 19th century. So the

222
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,279
views of women for instance are

223
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,839
traditional views of women's role in

224
00:10:39,279 --> 00:10:46,160
society. This came out quite clearly

225
00:10:41,839 --> 00:10:48,560
when Dilma was um put aside with stories

226
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,360
um in the the the the mainstream

227
00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:55,200
magazines talking about the future first

228
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:58,079
lady of Marcela and how beautiful and

229
00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:00,240
from the home she is. Right. She's he

230
00:10:58,079 --> 00:11:02,560
she's 40 years younger than him. That's

231
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,160
right. 42. That's right. Nice work if

232
00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:06,320
you can get it.

233
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,720
And this is something that comes in

234
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:11,040
contrast to last year which was

235
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,839
considered the year of the female Arab

236
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:16,880
Spring in Brazil where women took the to

237
00:11:13,839 --> 00:11:19,120
the streets to pressure for more rights

238
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,200
wanting Dilma and the current government

239
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,440
to advance their rights and also because

240
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,279
they feared the right-wing backlash and

241
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,920
they feared Kuinga was also pushing

242
00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:30,480
forward a project uh um which would

243
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,880
criminalize abortion and the victims of

244
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,279
rape which would have to make them go to

245
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:38,240
um uh a a doctor to try to prove that

246
00:11:35,279 --> 00:11:41,040
they were raped. So what we have is not

247
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,959
the fact that people want a left or a

248
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,240
right. The thing is both the left and

249
00:11:42,959 --> 00:11:46,320
the right need to learn from the

250
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,320
mistakes. The mistakes of the left I've

251
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,800
just told you now the mistakes of the

252
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,839
right is that it needs to update itself

253
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:56,480
and become a modern right if it argues

254
00:11:53,839 --> 00:11:58,640
that it looks to the future. So the

255
00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,959
project of tema is the project called

256
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,720
project to the future and people are

257
00:12:00,959 --> 00:12:05,200
criticizing it and saying well actually

258
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,040
that's the project to the past the only

259
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,440
thing in terms that they have any

260
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:13,440
connection towards European politics is

261
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,800
the neoliberal or the economic agenda

262
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,399
that is the only thing on that they're

263
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:20,200
on the same page but Dr. Carina, we have

264
00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:23,200
to leave it there. It's been a

265
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,880
fascinating tour the horizont of the

266
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:28,160
Brazilian scene. I'm really grateful to

267
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:31,120
you for joining us on the Sputnik.

268
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,680
Coming up next, it's Nakba time again.

269
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:37,079
It's a catastrophe, but nobody knows it.

270
00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:37,079
Don't go away.

271
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:44,320
Welcome back to Sputnik. As Israel

272
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,880
celebrates its independence, the

273
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:49,360
Palestinians mourn their Nagba or

274
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:52,000
catastrophe. The day their country

275
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,320
ceased to exist, their people banished

276
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:57,040
to the four corners of the earth as

277
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:59,440
refugees. Hundreds of their towns and

278
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,360
villages were destroyed and built over.

279
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,480
Thousands were massacred to make the

280
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:06,880
others flee, and they did. 800,000

281
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,800
Palestinians were driven from their land

282
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,800
and homes and were never allowed to

283
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,600
return, though they remain the legal

284
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,920
owners of that land and property. In the

285
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:18,639
68 years since, their numbers have

286
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:21,680
become more than 13 million. Next year

287
00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:24,160
is the centinery of Britain's authorship

288
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:26,480
of this catastrophe. Perhaps it will get

289
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:29,600
some attention then. It certainly isn't

290
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:32,000
now, except for here. With us to discuss

291
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:35,440
it is Palestinian academic and

292
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:38,800
journalist from Gaza. Welcome Ysef

293
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:41,360
Al-Heloo. Ysef, first of all, for the

294
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:45,040
viewers, succinctly describe what

295
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:47,920
happened in the Nagba. Well, the Nagba,

296
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:50,720
the catastrophe that started in 1948

297
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:53,120
marks the expulsion of the indigenous

298
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:57,360
population of Palestine at the time. uh

299
00:13:53,120 --> 00:14:01,279
Zionist militias uh the Argon um carried

300
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:04,160
out massacres um forced people to flee

301
00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:06,560
their homes and towns. At the time about

302
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:10,000
500 towns and villages were wiped off

303
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:12,480
the map. About 750,000 people were

304
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,519
forced to flee. U massacres were

305
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,959
committed. Um so basically um the

306
00:14:15,519 --> 00:14:19,760
indigenous population were forced to

307
00:14:16,959 --> 00:14:23,600
flee for people from Europe to come and

308
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:26,079
live in Palestine. And that Nakba sparks

309
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,480
uh the beginning of the ethnic cleansing

310
00:14:26,079 --> 00:14:30,800
project. So the Nakba is still ongoing

311
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:33,040
until this moment. Uh I'm a descendant

312
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,120
of a refugee. I'm not allowed to go and

313
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,760
even visit the town of my grandfather's

314
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:41,360
town which is only few kilometers to the

315
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:44,480
north of Gaza uh strip. Uh like the rest

316
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:46,320
of refugees uh who are still live in

317
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,720
refugee camps in Gaza, West Bank or

318
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,240
elsewhere are not allowed to visit. Um

319
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,480
I'm well traveled. I've been to so many

320
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,760
countries and I wish one day that I'm

321
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:57,160
able to visit the town of my

322
00:14:54,760 --> 00:15:00,000
grandfather. Um so each year

323
00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:02,880
Palestinians who live inside or who

324
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:05,360
those who are in exile, they um stress

325
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:08,000
on the right of return. Uh it's a sacred

326
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,079
right. Uh people still carry and keep

327
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,720
the keys and documents that approve

328
00:15:10,079 --> 00:15:16,880
their ownership ownership of their

329
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:20,079
properties. Um um each time Palestinians

330
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:23,920
also carry out um these events, they try

331
00:15:20,079 --> 00:15:26,959
to um show that they still uh keep their

332
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:30,240
identity through uh the Palestinian um

333
00:15:26,959 --> 00:15:33,839
embroidery, the the Palestinian food,

334
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:36,160
the cuisine, um the folklorons. Um in

335
00:15:33,839 --> 00:15:38,480
Gaza alone there are six refugee camps.

336
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:42,320
Twothird of Gaza population are

337
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:44,240
descendants of refugee. And uh we hear

338
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,000
comments by Israeli officials that they

339
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,480
will not allow they will never allow the

340
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,560
right of Palestinian uh refugees uh to

341
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,040
return. This is the key point uh because

342
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,920
the first part of what you described the

343
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:58,320
massacres driving people away and so on.

344
00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:01,839
This has happened lamentably to many

345
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:05,120
peoples in many parts of the world.

346
00:16:01,839 --> 00:16:08,000
The key difference is that nobody ever

347
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:11,839
said that because you flee, you're never

348
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:14,320
allowed to come back. Because you fled,

349
00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:17,759
someone else can live in your house and

350
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:19,440
own your orchard. Uh but that's what has

351
00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:21,759
happened in the case of the

352
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,880
Palestinians, isn't it? Isn't the right

353
00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:29,279
of return, therefore the absolutely key

354
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:31,920
demand? And why do Palestinian leaders

355
00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:34,959
uh pay so little attention to that in

356
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,560
their discourse? Well, the Palestinians

357
00:16:34,959 --> 00:16:38,880
have been living in a state of limbo.

358
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,320
Obviously, we have a weak leadership. Uh

359
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,959
the Palestinian Authority led by

360
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,920
President Abbaz. He's, you know, made

361
00:16:42,959 --> 00:16:47,839
some concessions and he himself he

362
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,440
announced that he's willing to give up

363
00:16:47,839 --> 00:16:52,079
his right to return to his original

364
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:54,160
village. Um and Palestinians were

365
00:16:52,079 --> 00:16:55,440
provoked, were outraged from that

366
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,839
statement.

367
00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:01,040
Um obviously the right of return is a

368
00:16:57,839 --> 00:17:03,920
sacred right. It's the only um I mean

369
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,199
for any lasting peace solution to take

370
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:09,120
place in the occupied territories

371
00:17:05,199 --> 00:17:11,679
refugees have um to return. Um also

372
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:13,520
Palestinians came up with the idea of uh

373
00:17:11,679 --> 00:17:15,919
one solution because the Israelis keep

374
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:18,959
refusing this option saying that the

375
00:17:15,919 --> 00:17:21,760
demographic um level will be in favor of

376
00:17:18,959 --> 00:17:24,640
Palestinians but it's not our um problem

377
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:27,839
in the first place. golder um one of the

378
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,760
Israeli uh officials at the time said

379
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:32,320
that uh the old will die and the young

380
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,559
will forget but we say no we will never

381
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:37,760
forget we will teach the love of our

382
00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:40,000
homeland to our children if it's not in

383
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,080
our lifetime there the next generation

384
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,799
will keep the flag just to add to that

385
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,880
as Arafat as well at the time said very

386
00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:48,880
politically incorrectly worded we will

387
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,799
not become like the red Indians we will

388
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,520
not end up in the museum we will keep on

389
00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:55,919
fighting yeah at the time um they

390
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,480
claimed Zionist um officials claimed

391
00:17:55,919 --> 00:18:00,080
that Palestine was was a land without a

392
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,799
people for a people without a land. But

393
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:05,440
why should we pay the price of what

394
00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:08,080
happened to our cousins to the Jewish

395
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:10,400
people in in Germany at the time? I mean

396
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,000
um why do I have to suffer that so for

397
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,080
that other people come and live in my

398
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,400
country? So those examples that you

399
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,400
described, George, um there are so many

400
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:21,440
examples. People who never been in

401
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:25,840
Palestine, they um wish one day to

402
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:28,880
return and um at schools, at events, uh

403
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:31,120
people are eager to to return. Um you

404
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,280
know, it's it's a human basic right to

405
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:35,280
be able to travel freely from place to

406
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,400
another place. Well, look, we we've just

407
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,320
made a film about uh about Tony Blair

408
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,200
and in the film there's a piece of

409
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:46,720
actuality of Mr. Blair saying quite

410
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:50,400
properly in the Kosovan refugee camps uh

411
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:53,360
during the Yugoslav war that uh that

412
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,600
these refugees have a legal and moral

413
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:58,640
right to return to their homes and we

414
00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,960
will never rest until they do. That's

415
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,200
true. But why is it only true for

416
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:07,000
Kosovans and not for Palestinians? Why

417
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:09,360
is the world so deaf to the cries of the

418
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,440
Palestinians who have the keys and the

419
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:14,080
title to land that somebody from

420
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:16,559
Brooklyn or London is living in? Well,

421
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:19,520
many UN resolutions uh were never

422
00:19:16,559 --> 00:19:22,000
implemented 191 that um states

423
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:24,640
Palestinian refugees have to return. Um

424
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,960
unfortunately um you know when it comes

425
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:30,320
to Palestine Israel conflict we know

426
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:32,559
that um a green light is given to the

427
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,559
Israelis by the American administration.

428
00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:38,000
When it comes to criticize Israel

429
00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:40,600
straight away those comments classified

430
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,880
as anti-Sumite. Um

431
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,440
unfortunately you know this is it's it's

432
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,679
not fair. It's it's the law of jungle.

433
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,280
Um, Palestinians have lost faith in the

434
00:19:47,679 --> 00:19:52,000
so-called international community, the

435
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,320
United Nations, the UN Security Council.

436
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,440
And the only hope they now they pin

437
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:59,200
their hopes on civil society

438
00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,039
organizations, free living people, those

439
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,200
who come up with idea to show solidarity

440
00:20:01,039 --> 00:20:05,840
whether it's BDS or something else,

441
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,160
peaceful demonstrations and Palestinians

442
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,559
are peaceful. You know, it struck me

443
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,799
some um people ask me, "Oh, you come

444
00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:15,039
from Palestine Gaza. Oh, I see that you

445
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:16,640
are smiling. you are a normal person.

446
00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:18,480
People have this idea about us that we

447
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,520
are violent. We are not. You know, we

448
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,600
are the most loving peaceful people in

449
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,880
the world because we have been living

450
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:30,000
under oppression for the past 68 years.

451
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,080
Um imagine Gaza has got a coastline 40

452
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,480
kilometers on the Mediterranean and we

453
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,960
are forced to import frozen fish from

454
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:40,320
the Israelis. Our fishermen come under

455
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:42,880
fire. Gaza seapport is the only the only

456
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,000
port is closed has been closed on the

457
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,159
Mediterranean since

458
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,440
1967. So we feel that you know the world

459
00:20:48,159 --> 00:20:54,400
has let us down and uh people have lost

460
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:57,840
faith. Maybe one day um justice will be

461
00:20:54,400 --> 00:21:01,919
done hopefully. When I started working

462
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:03,080
on the Palestine question in 1973

463
00:21:01,919 --> 00:21:06,000
Mhm.

464
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:09,440
I promise you, you could have fitted all

465
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:12,120
the supporters of the PLO into this room

466
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,880
in the whole of Britain, but

467
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:17,039
now millions of people support the

468
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:21,120
Palestinians and millions are ready to

469
00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:23,679
march and and boycott and uh divest and

470
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:26,000
take sanctions and so on. At the same

471
00:21:23,679 --> 00:21:28,440
time, in the Arab world, the support for

472
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,760
the Palestinians, which was once

473
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:34,720
universal, has slumped almost to zero.

474
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:37,760
How do you explain that paradox?

475
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,520
Well, I think uh the Palestinian cause

476
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,240
um has caused some headache for the

477
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,400
Arabs who let us down in the first

478
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:47,600
place. And to be honest, Palestinians,

479
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:49,360
they value the support of people,

480
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,440
international people, pro Palestinians

481
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:54,559
such as yourself and other people

482
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,559
because we feel there is real uh spirit

483
00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:59,760
that people show solidarity with the

484
00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:02,080
with the oppressed people. Um you have

485
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,240
people worldwide who would love to go

486
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,480
and break the siege to show solidarity

487
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,720
and they have to hide their identity uh

488
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,360
to say that they are going for tourism

489
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,760
whereas they go to show solidarity. The

490
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:15,600
facts are c crystalally clear, George.

491
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:18,000
You know, you have people on the ground

492
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:21,039
who use the social media nowadays.

493
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,280
Everybody, the young people, um they are

494
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:25,840
eager to become journalists to to show

495
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,640
the truth, to uh reveal the what's going

496
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:30,799
on because they are fed up from the

497
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,400
biased coverage of some of the western

498
00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:37,039
media um media outlets most. So, um

499
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:40,159
people know more now. There's awareness.

500
00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:42,240
uh they go by themselves and Palestine

501
00:22:40,159 --> 00:22:45,640
maybe it's the only country across the

502
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:48,080
world still occupied um and it's people

503
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:53,120
show the only the only country I'm

504
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:56,760
unable to get to uh lastly next year

505
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:59,520
2017 is the centinery of the Balffor

506
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:02,559
declaration Britain's authorship of the

507
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:05,280
Nakba many would say uh what do you

508
00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:08,320
think will happen what would you like to

509
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,799
see happen next year in the centinary of

510
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,039
the Bafford declaration. Well, if you

511
00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:14,799
ask any Palestinian uh who do you blame

512
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:17,840
in the first place, they will tell you

513
00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:19,200
Britain. Yeah. That gave the right for

514
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,360
these people to come and live in

515
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,799
Palestine. Obviously, during Nakba

516
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,320
events, Palestinians, I interviewed

517
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:26,080
people, they they hold Britain

518
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,559
responsible saying that Britain has to

519
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,760
do something. Bill for declaration was

520
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:34,000
the most unjust decision that was made

521
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,640
in in recent history. So this is what

522
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,480
people want like myself you know

523
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:43,039
everybody has to pray to play a major

524
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:45,440
role to um implement uh justice. Um

525
00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:47,840
obviously people show solidarity the

526
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,159
officials have to to find a solution to

527
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,840
pressure the Israelis to implement UN

528
00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:54,720
resolutions to abide by international

529
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,960
law. You know, it's enough for 68 years

530
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,200
and each year we commemorate the Nakba

531
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,679
and who knows how long it will take. But

532
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,840
Palestinians have hope at the end of

533
00:24:01,679 --> 00:24:06,799
this dark tunnel something positive will

534
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:10,170
happen. God willing Yousef, thanks for

535
00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:11,440
joining us on the spot.

536
00:24:10,170 --> 00:24:13,360
[Music]

537
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,200
And now it's your turn to tell us what

538
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,679
you think through the portals of social

539
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:20,480
media. What's rattling? Well, we asked

540
00:24:17,679 --> 00:24:22,640
what on earth is happening in Brazil and

541
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,520
Wilson Melo says it's a rightist

542
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,919
coupeta. They ousted a clear woman that

543
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,600
was preventing them from stealing. She

544
00:24:27,919 --> 00:24:34,080
was therefore not good for their

545
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:36,000
business. And Leo says accompanied with

546
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:39,120
a picture of Dilma back at the time

547
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,120
during the dictatorship on trial says

548
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:44,799
the Brazilian government has been after

549
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:46,880
her for a while and backed by the USA.

550
00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:49,600
It's interesting that neither Russia nor

551
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,159
China nor many Latin American countries

552
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,760
have yet recognized this coup d'eta

553
00:24:52,159 --> 00:24:58,159
government. Yeah. And uh who knows uh it

554
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,840
might not yet be the final story. Well,

555
00:24:58,159 --> 00:25:01,440
we didn't discuss this with the with our

556
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,919
guest, but a lot of people on social

557
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:07,039
media absolutely believe the USA is

558
00:25:03,919 --> 00:25:09,760
behind it. About Britain's role uh in

559
00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,600
the Nakba. Jabber says bringing back the

560
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,960
rights to its people is the important

561
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:18,559
part of sorry else it is useless and

562
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:22,480
free Hamartulus says talk is cheap but

563
00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:24,880
in Palestine Arab blood is even cheaper

564
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,279
sorry to say but that's true and those

565
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,200
are all the tweets for today which alas

566
00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:30,559
means that's the end of the show but you

567
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,520
can stay in touch with us through the

568
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:36,000
social media on Twitter rt_putnik or on

569
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,159
Facebook sputnik on Russia today it's

570
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,940
goodbye from me gayatri and from me,

571
00:25:38,159 --> 00:25:51,710
George Galloway. It's been marvelous.

572
00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:51,710
[Music]