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[Music]

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Okay.

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I need

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Welcome to a special edition of Sputnik

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orbiting the world with me George

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Galloway

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and me Gayatri.

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The world or at least this country waits

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for the long delayed Chilcot report into

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the Iraq war. 7 years, millions of

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pounds later, will Sir John, knited by

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Blair, have labored mightily only to

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bring forth a mouse?

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Or will, as last week's Sunday Time

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seems to suggest, the Chillcot Report

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inflicts savage criticism of Tony Blair,

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Jack Straw, Richard Dearof of MI6, and

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others.

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Peter Oborn, the most respected

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conservative writer in the English

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language today, has been on this case

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almost, though not quite as long as me.

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His new book, Not the Chilcot Report, is

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in the bookstores now and it will be

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almost as exciting a read as the report

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itself, not least because it is several

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million words shorter. Peter joins us

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now. Thanks for coming on the Sputnik.

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We'll come to your book in a minute, but

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uh Gatri mentioned the Sunday Times. Do

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you think that leak has got it about

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right? Well, I'm very interested in the

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leak. the the the journalist Tim

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Shipman, political editor of the Sunday

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Times, is respectable. He's claiming

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that as a minister, a former minister,

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has told him uh all of this. Well, I

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think we can take him at his word. In

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other words, a former minister, we can

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take it in the Blair government. It'll

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be a minister who's seen the report

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because it's been shown to him, has

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gabbed, has has broken his promise, and

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he's gabbed to the Sunday Times. I see

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this as part of a very deliberate uh

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attempt to prepare the way. Um a a

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wellplaced leak to uh massage the

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process and it's interesting that

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they're fingering Jack Straw. Uh they're

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saying it'll be severe. Um I'm um so I

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think it's quite interesting

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indeed. uh managing expectations is the

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order of the day in these things and

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this clearly had those fingerprints uh

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on it. I suppose the moot point or there

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are two moot points is will the savage

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criticism be reputation destroying

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criticism and will it be limited to

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those names that were in the Sunday

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Times report in your view? Well, what it

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said in the Sunday Times was that it

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would focus a lot more than we had

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thought on the planning process, the

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disaster which happened when the British

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troops got to Iraq than we'd thought.

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That makes sense. It was a disaster

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after we got there. We It was a

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humiliating defeat in effect for the

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British army. Um, so, uh, what I think

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though is the case is that they're going

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to, we seem to know that they're going

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to criticize maybe 40 or 50 people. And

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it's going to be 2.6 million words. That

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suggests to me a lack.

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What did you say to me? Three times the

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size of the Bible. Three times the size

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of the Bible. Five times almost five

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times the size of war and peace. Now,

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that suggests an inability really to

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focus on the key issues. It suggests

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that they're doing a scattergun

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approach. It suggests that they may not

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answer the really important questions

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about were the British people lied to

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ahead of the war. Um was there a secret

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deal of some kind? Was Blair always

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committed to invasion? Um was the war

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illegal? All these are the big many of

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the big questions. I agree that the

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mismanagement of the occupation is very

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important. But the for me the most

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important aspect is the leadup to war

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itself. Well, the mismanagement of the

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occupation is not actually of great

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interest to me because being half an

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Irishman, I'm entitled to say uh when

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asked directions, I wouldn't have

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started from here. They should never

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have been there. Therefore, how they

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managed their occupation is uh a matter

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of little importance to me. the the

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$64,000 question as we used to uh

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describe it is the one you've just

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posed. Were we lied to in the runup to

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this uh invasion? And if Chilcot doesn't

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deal with that, then in my opinion, it

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will have been seven years and millions

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of pounds wasted. I completely accept

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that he has to if he's going to say that

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we were not lied to then he has to show

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why that should be. He has because it on

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the face of things as I show in my in my

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book on not the Chilcott report uh you

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can look at the statements made by Tony

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Blair to parliament and in the media you

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can compare those statements to what

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we've the underlying intelligence

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uh which was came from the joint

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intelligence committee to dining street

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and you can show that Tony Blair

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completely misrepresented what the

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underlying intelligence was saying to

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him about the exist distance of of

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weapons of mass destruction as they were

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called and the threat posed by Saddam

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Hussein. So if if if Schulcott has to

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explain what this gaping gap this abbies

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between what the intelligence services

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were being told were saying to Blair and

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what Blair actually said to the British

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people.

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Sorry. Go on.

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No. Um I recall you describing um in

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your in your conversation with uh Blitz.

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Yeah. The

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the chief weapons inspector and Blitz

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and Blitz. is that they uh interpreted

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the ex the question marks into

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exclamation marks

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which is very vital.

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That was very important that Hans Blick

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said to me that in his f final speech to

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parliament on March the 18th 2003 making

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the case to war just a day or two before

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everything started to move he that Blair

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was incredibly selective of the weapons

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inspector's report. He he chose only the

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incendiary things. He misrepresented the

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things that he sold parliament. He he he

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changed unaccounted for as if they

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actually existed and so forth. And you

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can show a systematic pattern of

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deception exactly

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of the British people ahead of the wall.

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Well, for me that's the the countdown to

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my own expulsion from the Labor Party

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began when I accused Mr. Blair on the

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BBC of lying at the uh press conference

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immediately after the Crawford Ranch,

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Texas meeting where it's now, I think,

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generally believed uh Mr. Blair pledged

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uh war uh with Bush long before

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Parliament had ever uh been consulted

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long before he stopped saying that there

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was no necessity for war. I mean

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afterwards he said that uh that uh if

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Saddam Hussein and his sons uh were to

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disarm they could stay in power and and

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thus the issue for me is deception.

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uh if

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he is not found to have deceived us then

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as you say Chot has to explain this gap

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mind the gap the gap between what the

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intelligence actually said and the

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conclusions that Mr. Blair uh drew from

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it. Let me widen it though because I

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know that in this corker of a book that

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you've written uh you deal with this. Um

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it would be entirely wrong in my view to

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hang all of this on Tony Blair

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because he had a cabinet.

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Exactly.

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I have interviewed some members of that

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uh cabinet who say that Mr. Blair never

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really brought these matters uh before

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them which begs the question what kind

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of cabinet were they and why they didn't

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insist that he did. Uh but if a cabinet

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has cabinet responsibility, there has to

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be more than Tony Blair in this frame.

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No. Oh, I completely agree with you. By

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the way, I I I'm on the matter of

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whether a deal was struck, but secret

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deal. I've yet to see the smoking gun. I

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get to see the sort of the the treaty

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signed in blood. I mean, there's a lot

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of circumstantial evidence and uh it

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it's it's hard to make any other sense

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of the pattern of events. We haven't got

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anything which proves

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which proves it happened. But I

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completely agree with you that we I

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think we need to look beyond Blair

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because uh he he was saying a lot of

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stuff which was turned out subsequently

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to be untrue. Why wasn't he pulled up on

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that by his foreign policy adviser David

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Manning? Why wasn't the chiefs of the

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intelligence services uh J Love and in

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particular Scarlet the chief of the

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joint intelligence committee Sir John

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Scarlet as he know is why didn't he

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complain to Blair that he was

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misrepresenting the material he was

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getting from the JIC very important

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point why weren't the cabinet raising

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difficult questions uh asking the right

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questions why were they content not to

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see the legal advice so they got a

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pathetic few paragraphs at the very last

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minute these questions go on and I do

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and and the press By the way,

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I was a journalist. I'm glad you have.

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I'm a journal. I And I feel as I wrote

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that book, I started to feel a deeper

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and deeper shame. There were people who

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honorably opposed and saw through the

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war from the start like yourself,

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but there were many I'm afraid to say I

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was sort of neutral on it. And I didn't

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I I now I can see writing through that

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there's a lot I should have picked up at

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the time which I didn't do.

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Well, it's very honorable that you say

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so. And David Davis uh is another who

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voted for the war and because he did

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he's also ashamed and more determined

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David Davis the Tory Gy

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uh to uh get to the uh bottom of this

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but I'm glad you raised it because the

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media was a chorus

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uh it was an echo chamber of the Blarite

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clique at that time and those who

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opposed it were treated as bad or mad or

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both. uh when it turns out that we were

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uh right. Uh but the people in the media

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who were that chorus are still there

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today and continue to chorus government

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propaganda. This seems to me therefore a

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crisis of every estate in the realm.

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Not just the political class, the civil

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service, the mandarins, the foreign

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service, but also the the uh media that

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we have. I do I absolutely agree with

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that and I I I think that if you look

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through the people who warned against

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the war

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how what's happened to them we all lost

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our jobs

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you looked and you looked at those

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seriously Greg Dyke Piers Morgan myself

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and many others we we all lost our jobs

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and whereas those who trumpeted the war

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has anybody paid any price at all

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um and so

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John Scarlet is now Sir John Scarlet uh

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uh uh the foreign policy adviser is now

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a knight of the of the

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nobody has paid a price.

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Scarlet was promoted. If you were so

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wrong

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as I think Choco is going to conclude,

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doesn't it add insult to injury that

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00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,800
they've gone on to become

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Well, we know that he's even Obama said,

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00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,600
he said, you know, the rise of ISIS,

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yes,

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the rise of the Islamic State Dash can

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be traced

280
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:07,440
to the catastrophic of the invasion of

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of Iraq in 2003. So we there's no real

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00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:12,000
doubt there's no doubt at all that this

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was the greatest calamity of the postwar

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postcold cold war era and and it's led

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to so much else and it's created but

286
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,279
just returning to Britain it's created

287
00:12:20,079 --> 00:12:26,480
this crisis of trust in in in British

288
00:12:23,279 --> 00:12:28,399
institutions because can we believe what

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00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,240
we're told by not just by the prime

290
00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:34,320
minister but by the civil servants by

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the by the intelligence services a and

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00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,440
in Britain

293
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until 2003. Generally speaking, you and

294
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,600
I are from different traditions, but I

295
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,920
felt that I trusted the British state.

296
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,279
You probably didn't actually, and I've

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00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,279
come to the conclusion that you were

298
00:12:47,279 --> 00:12:51,519
right and I was wrong. But if you go

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00:12:49,279 --> 00:12:53,760
back to World War II when we as a

300
00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:56,480
country, as a nation united against

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00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,959
fascism, uh, and it was the greatest

302
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,839
moment of a thousand years of English,

303
00:12:58,959 --> 00:13:01,200
British history,

304
00:12:59,839 --> 00:13:03,120
our finest star,

305
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,959
uh, you know, we we did trust the state,

306
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,360
didn't we? We believed in in in the

307
00:13:04,959 --> 00:13:10,079
organs of the state and really unless

308
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:13,440
they deal with Chilcott can deal with

309
00:13:10,079 --> 00:13:15,279
the the horror of Iraq and what and what

310
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,920
how it came about I don't think we can

311
00:13:15,279 --> 00:13:19,519
anymore because it shows that the state

312
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,000
cannot investigate itself.

313
00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:24,560
No. Stay with us after the break. More

314
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,880
on Chilcot the Iraq war with the great

315
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:27,880
Peter Oorn.

316
00:13:30,079 --> 00:13:35,120
Welcome back to Sputnik. Peter Oborn,

317
00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:37,360
writer, broadcaster, and exoset seeker

318
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,839
after truth, has written a corker of a

319
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,920
book, not the chillcot report, and he's

320
00:13:39,839 --> 00:13:44,320
with us to discuss the issue which will

321
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:47,279
dominate the summer and beyond in

322
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:50,079
Britain. Uh, Peter, before the break, we

323
00:13:47,279 --> 00:13:52,480
were uh uh just laying out some of the

324
00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:56,079
great issues that are involved. You've

325
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:59,519
done a signal service in uh producing

326
00:13:56,079 --> 00:14:02,959
this book. tell us uh who published it,

327
00:13:59,519 --> 00:14:05,440
what you intend to achieve uh by it, and

328
00:14:02,959 --> 00:14:07,760
it's a slim volume uh so it's millions

329
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,839
of words shorter than Chilcot, but I'm

330
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,760
willing to bet it's rather more forensic

331
00:14:09,839 --> 00:14:12,720
than he's going to produce. Tell us

332
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,839
about it.

333
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:18,079
Well, I I started off, by the way,

334
00:14:15,839 --> 00:14:19,680
co-writing it with David Morris, Dr.

335
00:14:18,079 --> 00:14:20,880
David Morrison, who's been such a

336
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,839
brilliant and an analyst.

337
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:26,720
He has. I've been uh I've been the

338
00:14:23,839 --> 00:14:27,760
beneficiary of his advice for uh well

339
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,360
over a decade.

340
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,760
David and I, as you know, wrote a co

341
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,360
co-wrote a piece on a book on Iran about

342
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,720
three or four years ago, saying it's

343
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,880
time to talk to Iran and

344
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,600
and exposing the lies told about that

345
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,279
and uh we it's it's really a joint book

346
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,079
of ours, but we disagreed. It was most

347
00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:45,680
annoying about some issues

348
00:14:44,079 --> 00:14:46,160
and David being a man of enormous

349
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,480
integrity,

350
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,720
tremendous integrity. Yeah. um he

351
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,639
refused in the end to put his name to it

352
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,120
and it was um I'm really upset about

353
00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:56,959
that but I want to pay homage here to

354
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,360
his contribution also Richard Hela I'm

355
00:14:56,959 --> 00:14:58,959
sure you know

356
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,279
I do know Richard also yes

357
00:14:58,959 --> 00:15:04,000
and Richard wrote several passages long

358
00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:05,120
long per and so it's and what he's

359
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,000
trying to do

360
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:10,240
is just set out the basic facts and the

361
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:13,680
basic arguments

362
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:16,079
about um about the leadup to the Iraq

363
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,560
war in principle but we also go beyond

364
00:15:16,079 --> 00:15:21,440
which chilot needs to address. And so

365
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:23,920
you it's 35,000 words. I'm I'm p I think

366
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,079
it's very clearly written and you can

367
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,560
read it and you it gives you a way of

368
00:15:26,079 --> 00:15:29,519
reading the when the 2.6 million words

369
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,680
comes out here.

370
00:15:29,519 --> 00:15:34,240
You can say has Chilcot address this

371
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:36,560
issue. We because we show that the Blair

372
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:39,360
government lied

373
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:41,360
about uh to to the British people.

374
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,839
We set up the arguments. We set up what

375
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,720
is a lie? how you show that somebody's

376
00:15:43,839 --> 00:15:48,800
lied and we make the we show that the

377
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,959
black government lied and Blair was the

378
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,800
head of that government. We show that

379
00:15:50,959 --> 00:15:55,759
the war was illegal. we go through the

380
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:59,120
arguments and so in a very simple way

381
00:15:55,759 --> 00:16:01,440
the key passage is we and I think that

382
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,600
if and if Chot is going to say it wasn't

383
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:08,240
illegal or he's going to say he didn't

384
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:10,079
lie then I think you you got to we the

385
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,839
arguments making the case that he did

386
00:16:10,079 --> 00:16:13,759
are there and at least we can know if

387
00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:15,120
she'll address them well enough you see

388
00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:16,480
what I mean it's a sort of primer

389
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,160
a primer yeah

390
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,880
well that's very important very valuable

391
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:23,120
and I hope thath people snap it up as

392
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:26,720
I'm sure They're uh they're uh going to

393
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:28,560
I described the panel, the Chilcot panel

394
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,600
on the day that it was announced in

395
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:36,639
parliament as a parade of establishment

396
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:40,000
flunkies. Uh several of whom had openly

397
00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:42,800
proitized for the war. Uh and two of

398
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:46,320
them in the most brazen way. One of them

399
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,680
comparing Bush and Blair to uh to Truman

400
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,360
and and Churchill.

401
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,120
Roosevelt Roosevelt and that was Sir

402
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,560
Martin the late Sir Martin Gilbert. Yes,

403
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,920
this has gone on so long some of the

404
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,000
members have died.

405
00:16:53,920 --> 00:17:00,399
Uh but uh I've come to think that I may

406
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,399
have been wrong uh about that.

407
00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:04,959
Uh certainly if it turns out to be a

408
00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:06,799
whitewash after this length of time, it

409
00:17:04,959 --> 00:17:09,439
seems to me that the establishment, the

410
00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:13,520
British state itself will be taking a

411
00:17:09,439 --> 00:17:16,240
very great risk because the seeping away

412
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:19,280
of its authority and credibility will

413
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,679
could turn into a flood. Are you

414
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,439
expecting Chilcott to come to anything

415
00:17:21,679 --> 00:17:24,480
like the conclusions you have in this

416
00:17:23,439 --> 00:17:26,720
book?

417
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,360
Well, I I literally don't know. I mean,

418
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,520
all we've seen the um the leak in the

419
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:33,360
Sunday Times we were just discussing

420
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,400
which in my view comes from Blairite

421
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,000
sources.

422
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,400
All the leaks will come from the from

423
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,679
the from the the old new old new Labour

424
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,200
Blite sources.

425
00:17:39,679 --> 00:17:43,600
You know, I'm what I'm curious about.

426
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,919
George um said it mentioned it in the

427
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,520
introduction. The world or at least this

428
00:17:45,919 --> 00:17:49,360
country is awaiting, but does he have a

429
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:52,160
point? Is the world awaiting this

430
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:54,160
report? How is how are the people across

431
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,520
the Atlantic? Are they awaiting this

432
00:17:54,160 --> 00:18:00,000
report? Are they going to is the Bush

433
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,919
former administration going to fear

434
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,440
something like that happening there too?

435
00:18:01,919 --> 00:18:04,799
For me, this is about Britain. It's

436
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,799
about how we in Britain govern

437
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:08,799
ourselves. I don't think the Americans I

438
00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:11,280
mean Americans actually to their

439
00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:13,600
enormous credit have actually looked

440
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:16,000
into some of the horrors the incredible

441
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,919
Feinstein reported of torture. they

442
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,240
they've been much more

443
00:18:17,919 --> 00:18:24,080
clearsighted about the crimes committed

444
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:26,960
by by by the Americans than they've than

445
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,799
we have. And but for me it's about

446
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:32,480
Britain and actually it raises a lot of

447
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:34,640
questions. Uh we do we want to have this

448
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,240
alliance of the United States. I mean it

449
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,919
was the alliance of the United States a

450
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,400
determined nation to stay with the

451
00:18:37,919 --> 00:18:42,080
United States that led us. It was part

452
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,919
of the reason why Blair and it's

453
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,360
perfectly honorable view by the way but

454
00:18:43,919 --> 00:18:47,360
we have to do what the Americans do. we

455
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:48,720
were going into war with the Americans.

456
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:50,799
I think we have to answer that question.

457
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,360
Do we want to stick with the American

458
00:18:50,799 --> 00:18:54,720
Hegelon uh and I because it's taken us

459
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,360
into some very bad places.

460
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,799
It has.

461
00:18:55,360 --> 00:19:01,280
Um then I think you have to look I mean

462
00:18:58,799 --> 00:19:03,280
we have become we've adopted

463
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,039
neoonservatism. If you look one of the

464
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:08,240
interesting things is it was a

465
00:19:05,039 --> 00:19:10,320
neoonservative adventure as we know the

466
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,160
circle around Bush. We now have we still

467
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,840
have in Britain a neoonservative

468
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,000
government. We you know the the the the

469
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,160
key figures in the air cons they they

470
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:21,760
look to the right wing of the Republican

471
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:24,080
party for spiritual and intellectual and

472
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,760
political leadership and is that what we

473
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,520
want in this country or do we need to

474
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,720
sort of say do do we want to get

475
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,799
involved in these uh expeditions? Um

476
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,960
isn't there another tradition of foreign

477
00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:36,320
policy we might like to engage with?

478
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,720
These are all great issues. I hope that

479
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:41,760
Chilcot engages with those and and do we

480
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,520
want to have a system of integrity in

481
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,360
our civil service and in our

482
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,240
intelligence services or do we want them

483
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:50,880
to become uh instruments of of of

484
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:54,080
charismatic political leaders as

485
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:57,440
happened in the 2003 case?

486
00:19:54,080 --> 00:20:00,240
Well, the uh issue of whether or not it

487
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:03,440
was a crime is I suppose therefore still

488
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:06,080
open. But the issue of whether it was a

489
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,880
blunder is not open. uh as you say,

490
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:11,679
President Obama has openly conceded that

491
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,400
uh it's a good lesson. He said uh that

492
00:20:11,679 --> 00:20:16,240
you should aim before you shoot and he

493
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,039
was unequivocal that ISIS, the

494
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:21,360
phenomenon which is the gravest threat

495
00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:23,919
uh in the world today in my view uh

496
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:27,200
comes directly out of this foreign

497
00:20:23,919 --> 00:20:30,080
policy uh disaster. So that's not an

498
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:33,120
open question. But on the legality, I

499
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:37,039
just want to test you speculatively on

500
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:40,880
this. If Chilkco concludes that we were

501
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:44,000
deceived and that we were lied to and

502
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:47,760
that the country was taken to war on a

503
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:50,960
false pretext, what can we do about it?

504
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:53,120
Is Alex Salmon's idea of an impeachment

505
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:56,559
or other people who talk about court

506
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:58,640
action and so on? Is that possible? I

507
00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:01,760
don't think it I mean think it is. Let I

508
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,679
I think it was a war of aggression.

509
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,120
I I think it was an illegal war.

510
00:21:03,679 --> 00:21:05,360
Both of these are crimes then.

511
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,799
Yes.

512
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:11,200
Yeah, they are. But I don't see the

513
00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:14,720
mechanism to go ahead and prosecute. Um

514
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:17,360
the uh the long legal note before the

515
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:20,000
war from the attorney general dealt with

516
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:22,240
this very clearly that the ICC the

517
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,320
international criminal court could

518
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,480
there's no was not authorized to deal

519
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,520
with crimes of aggression. Britain is a

520
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,200
member of the security council and you

521
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,039
can't there's no real me as a security

522
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:36,000
council member you're not going to get

523
00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:39,039
criticized get get prosecuted for a

524
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:42,240
crime of aggression war of aggression if

525
00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:44,720
we can't do anything legally we must do

526
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:48,159
something politically

527
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:51,039
Blair is the uh culprit chief his

528
00:21:48,159 --> 00:21:52,240
cabinet secondary but the parliament

529
00:21:51,039 --> 00:21:55,200
also

530
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,520
has to take some responsibility

531
00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:01,280
Because what is a parliament if it is

532
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:04,240
not an organ that holds the executive,

533
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:06,320
the government to account? Mustn't we

534
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,320
make some change in the way our

535
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,159
parliament works? Perhaps even make it a

536
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,480
bit more like the American.

537
00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:14,159
Yes. American functions in a way much

538
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,640
more democratically than ours does.

539
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:19,120
What parliament didn't do was to expose

540
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,039
the falsehoods which were being told it

541
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:23,440
and ush

542
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:26,960
at the time. There was actually I showed

543
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:29,520
this in the book uh even a lie embedded

544
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,520
in the motion on the 18th of March

545
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,640
to do with the position of the French it

546
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,120
was misstated.

547
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,159
Yes.

548
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:39,360
Uh and so um parliament was very and

549
00:22:36,159 --> 00:22:41,120
there were one or two um Labour MPs who

550
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,280
who did actually start to expose that

551
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:45,120
that they were laughed at by the others

552
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,799
in parliament. And so of course

553
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:48,400
parliament failed the media failed. It's

554
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:50,400
a terrible failing by the me as we

555
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,120
discussed a little while ago and and

556
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,480
those who were right you the stop the

557
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,000
war coalition

558
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,159
Jeremy Corbyn

559
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,240
I mean uh and there were a number of

560
00:22:58,159 --> 00:23:01,360
journalists Paulie Toybe was right I

561
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,120
think I mean there were a few

562
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:07,520
journalists who got it absolutely right

563
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:09,360
but not all liberals or lefts by the way

564
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,280
I think the daily Peter Hitchens was

565
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,480
completely against it Alexander in the

566
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,640
Daily Mail

567
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,559
there were many people actually in

568
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:21,039
conservative newspapers

569
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:23,840
who refused to join the the rush uh to

570
00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:25,840
war. My last point on that

571
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:29,039
uh it was said of the Bourbons that they

572
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:31,440
they learned nothing and forgot nothing.

573
00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:34,960
Uh, aren't we in the same position

574
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:39,120
today? Because I still hear the same

575
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:43,039
kind of arguments advanced on other

576
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:48,240
issues, other wars. Iran, you mentioned

577
00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:50,720
uh the Syrian war, the posture of uh

578
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,120
hostility towards Russia. I still hear

579
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:56,960
the same people saying the same things,

580
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:58,880
and it's like a a Groundhog Day for me.

581
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,919
Uh I'm not sure what we can do about

582
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:04,400
that, but it's a real pressing problem.

583
00:24:01,919 --> 00:24:06,720
Absolutely right. I mean, when David

584
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,320
Cameron was making the argument for

585
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,159
bombing Syria,

586
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,320
he suddenly produced this figure of

587
00:24:10,159 --> 00:24:12,640
70,000 moderate rebels.

588
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,880
Yes.

589
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,240
And which he attributed to the joint

590
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,480
intelligence committee. I remember

591
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,960
watching that and thinking criy 13 years

592
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,520
on.

593
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,200
Yes.

594
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,600
And the same things happened

595
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,679
and it was another phantom. Libya, the

596
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,440
invasion of Libya based on the idea

597
00:24:25,679 --> 00:24:29,039
which the government ministers continue

598
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,520
to repeat that there was they were

599
00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:33,840
preventing a genocide. Well, you know,

600
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,200
the the the reports are since have made

601
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,360
quite clear that there was no

602
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:40,320
possibility or there's no no hint of a

603
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:43,039
genocide about to occur in Benghazi. A

604
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:46,400
and I think that that is an so we we are

605
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:48,880
still going to war on the basis of lies.

606
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:52,520
Peter Auburn, we're blessed to have you.

607
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,520
Thanks very much indeed.

608
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,880
And now it's your turn to tell us what

609
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,559
you think through the portals of social

610
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,799
media. What's rattling guy?

611
00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:04,240
So the long long long awaited Chilcot

612
00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:06,480
report. Gary Edward Drury says arrest

613
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,960
Blair first and foremost and all his

614
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:11,200
blood drenched pitiful sheep. Terry

615
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,279
Clark says it's unrealistic not to

616
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,600
expect a cover up. That's what I think.

617
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:17,520
And then Ricardo Picasso. The most

618
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,840
important thing is that Chilo tells the

619
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,640
truth, but I'm sure the Blair will.

620
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,799
Uh, yes. that that we can guarantee. I

621
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,799
don't think that it will be a cover up

622
00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:27,360
because I don't think Britain can afford

623
00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:28,640
one.

624
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,400
Well, that's all for today then,

625
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,880
which alas means that's the end of the

626
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,080
show.

627
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,640
Well, you can stay in touch with us

628
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,880
through Twitter at RT Sputnik or on

629
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,240
Facebook, Sputnik on Russia Today. It's

630
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,400
goodbye from me, Gayatri,

631
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,400
and from me, George Galloway. It's been

632
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,400
marvelous.

633
00:25:46,530 --> 00:25:49,599
[Music]

634
00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:55,719
[Music]