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okay I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and with me gri

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in 1989 the last Soviet column left

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Afghanistan it brought to an end a

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9-year intervention costing untold

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amounts of blood and treasure the

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left-wing government left behind in

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cabul struggled on for longer than most

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thought possible before being overrun by

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the us-backed and Saudi funded fanatics

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of the president najah hanging him from

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a lamp poost with his severed penis

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stuck in his mouth it was the shape of

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things to come competing mujahidin

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factions proceeded to murder each other

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on an industrial scale until the Taliban

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crushed the allall and teamed up with

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al-Qaeda in one of the most obscurant

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States in history the Islamic Emirate of

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Afghanistan as the world knows they soon

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turned on their Earth while patrons from

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alhar to the Twin Tower a useful

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reminder that Mary Shell's novel friend

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Frankenstein should be read right to the

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end our first guest charted all of this

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and More in his Peerless career as a

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foreign correspondent for the guardian

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and as the author of ghosts of

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Afghanistan and I'm glad to say Jonathan

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steel joins us now Jonathan thanks for

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coming on board the Sputnik this

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Majestic work of yours ghosts of

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Afghanistan the haunted Battleground one

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of the things that sticks out from the

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book is that the principle difference

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between the Soviet Union and us is that

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the Soviet Union learned their lesson

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earlier and changed course would you

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agree with that definitely and it wasn't

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just the political leadership in the

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Kremlin mik gorbachov who came to power

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of course in 1985 who realized the war

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was unwinable and they ought to pull out

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it was the Soviet military they weren't

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like the gung-ho us generals of today

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who think everything's going well and

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progress is being made we know from the

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secret meetings of the polit bureau The

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Archives of course been published since

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the collapse of the Soviet Union the

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military agreed with gorbachov they had

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to get out it was not not working and

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yet the US Generals in particular

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forever calling for a surge one more

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heave still more men into the mall still

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more blood to be spilt rather

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surprisingly managed to persuade

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President Obama of this when he had run

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for office as the man to bring an end to

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America's unpopular Foreign Wars well he

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made a big mistake in his campaign

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having come out against the Iraq War

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which of course was good he described

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that as a war of choice where he said

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the whereas he said that the war in

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Afghanistan was one of necessity and we

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had to be in there because of al-Qaeda

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and the Taliban and all the rest of it

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so he did make a mistake but though I

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think probably like gorbachov he

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realized in his heart of hearts that the

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thing was unwinable and now uh having

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spent all that blood and treasure having

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spent I think trillions of dollars

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amongst all the parties having invested

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scores of billions of dollars in the

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regime of hammed Karai as soon as the

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foreign forces leave I think we're going

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to be back at square one are we not well

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I think it'll be worse because as you

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pointed out in the intro it took three

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years before the muine came into Cabell

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after the last Soviet troop had gone I

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mean I flew actually on February the

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15th 1989 from Moscow to kabell I was

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the Moscow correspondent of the guardian

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and a lot of my Russian friends thought

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I was crazy to be going to Afghanistan

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at that moment they thought there'd be

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complete collapse of the regime there'd

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be a blood path any foreigners would be

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killed particularly ones like me who'd

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actually worked there in during the

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Soviet period and reported from there

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but I had a sense that it wouldn't be

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like that I thought the Afghan Army was

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relatively strong I didn't think the all

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the government workers in Kabul wanted

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the muin they were terrified of them and

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I knew of course the muin completely

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disunited and were often fighting each

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other more than fighting the Soviet or

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the Afghan Army and so I thought that it

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would probably last but there was a

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massive actual psychological campaign by

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Western governments to try and undermine

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najiah Robert Gates who had been an

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adviser to President Carter in the

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binski National Security era which began

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this whole miserable story revealed for

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the first time or at least confirmed for

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the first time that the US

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administration had been funding these

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Fanatics these so-called mujahadin fully

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six months before the Soviet

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intervention uh in the country that

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squares I'm sure with your own findings

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exactly right they wanted actually to

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suck the Soviet Union into Afghanistan

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they were very glad when the Soviet

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Union invaded because they thought it

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would be Revenge it would be the Soviet

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Union's Vietnam and they would get a

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bloody nose just like the Americans had

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done four or five years earlier in in

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saon and of course all the guns and all

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the money and all the strength that they

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gave these people they paraded them on

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the conference Platforms in the

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Republican Party in the US the

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conservative party in Britain ITN was

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forever reporting about these uh holy

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Warriors these Freedom Fighters as

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President Reagan called them these are

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the very people or the very milu out of

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which 9911 and other Al-Qaeda atrocities

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came well one of the incredible things

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about this election that they're going

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to have in April in two months time in

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Cal is that one of the candidates Abdul

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rasul Sayad

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is the very man who invited

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Al-Qaeda to come to Afghanistan in 1986

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and yet he's posing as a Democratic

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candidate for this presidency and

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Western diplomats go along and talk to

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him and say oh yes he's changed now he's

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a different man and all the rest of it

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and does he have much support in

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Afghanistan well I think he's popular in

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some areas but only in the tribal areas

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around pman which is his own personal

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sort of power base but I think a lot of

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people particularly women other people

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are more secular terrified that men like

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this could possibly come back to Power

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now it's all lasted longer than the

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first and second world wars put together

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uh we ourselves have lost the blood of a

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lot of our service Personnel the US of

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course far more other NATO intervention

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countries also the financial costs have

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been uh gigantic it has to go down as a

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pretty unmitigated disaster when you

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spend the lives of your people and the

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trillions of dollars and leave so little

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behind exactly I mean very little has

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been done I mean actually if we're

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talking about the Soviet Union

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remembering that they were equally bad

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in the sense that if you look at the

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total budget that the Soviet Union spent

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in Afghanistan over their nine years 94%

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went on Military things 6% went on

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civilian development that's exactly the

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same proportion as with the Americans

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only 6% of these billions of dollars

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that have gone in have actually gone in

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to do health and education and

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infrastructure and so on I mean it's a

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terrible shame and the other thing is

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that people are terrified of the

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Americans I mean there was a recent poll

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uh done by the Asia Foundation which is

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a us-based US financed organization and

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they found that 77% of Afghans say

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they're terrified when they see if they

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come into any encounter with the

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Americans even Kai is now trenant

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criticizing the British and American

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occupation which put him in power well

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this is what happens I think to people

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who are puppets essentially or clients

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you know with with no real power BS of

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their own on the one hand they're

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completely dependent on the occupiers or

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the Invaders or the interveners whatever

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you want to call them at the same time

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for National dignity purposes every so

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often they have to make a little

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statement saying you know I'm a

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nationalist I want the Americans to go

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and so on and NAA did the same thing

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actually I interviewed him 25 years ago

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when I finally arrived in Carell on this

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trip that I just mentioned and I did I

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got the first interview with since the

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Soviets went and it was incredible

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because he was doing exactly what Kai is

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doing he he even used the word dictat to

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describe the Soviet occupation he said I

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I referred to some quote from the

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British foreign secretary at the time

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who said he n will ought to resign and I

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said what do you think of that statement

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he said look we've just liberated

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ourselves from one dictat and you're now

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trying to impose another one on us how

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can we do that well of course we know

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what happened to him uh I presume Kai

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will be better organized and will be out

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on a flight to enjoy some of the fruits

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uh of his presidency in Dubai uh or

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somewhere but where does that leave

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Afghanistan where will the people be if

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we are lucky enough to be talking uh

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together 5 years from now what kind of

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Afghanistan are we going to have well as

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you pointed out there was a civil war

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going on even before the Soviets came in

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in December 1979 so this is really a

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long running Civil War that's been going

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on for 40 years overlaid by two foreign

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interventions first by the Soviets and

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then by the Americans and I'm afraid

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that the Civil War will ramp up when the

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Americans gradually pull out and

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fighting will continue and as I said

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early at Kell may fall not immediately

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it could be two years but I don't think

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it's going to last for very long but

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certainly the countryside the pashon

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areas from which the Taliban come the

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south and east of the country will

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gradually the villages will fall under

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Taliban control many of them have

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already well the uh uh fighting and the

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violence the destabilization has of

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course and the war has of course spread

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over the border into Pakistan and uh May

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yet consume uh Pakistan at least the

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formerly Northwest Frontier uh province

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which begs a question uh that uh I don't

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think you deal with in the book perhaps

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you'd give me your view now is

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Afghanistan one of these states that's

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going to have to separate that is going

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to have to have this Durand Line redrawn

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with a pashon state somehow emerging out

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of the pashon areas in Pakistan and the

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pashun in Afghanistan well I don't think

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either the people in Kabul or the

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Islamabad people want that I mean the

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pakistanis don't want that that would

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increase the number of pashun in their

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own country and that would be a

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potential security threat to the you

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know the other groups in Pakistan and

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Sly the Afghans don't want to lose

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territory I think so it would have to be

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00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,920
a popular movement based on an

274
00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:10,519
continuing Insurgency but at the moment

275
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:13,040
you know the Taliban focus is not to

276
00:11:10,519 --> 00:11:14,880
withdraw this part of the country and

277
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,320
join it to Pakistan it's to capture

278
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,800
power in caral so sure but they're not

279
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,079
going to I mean we'll we'll be back to

280
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,920
the Northern Alliance then won't we well

281
00:11:21,079 --> 00:11:25,839
we are that's why this election is going

282
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:28,160
to produce only people probably in power

283
00:11:25,839 --> 00:11:29,959
who are you know historic enemies of the

284
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,480
Taliban so the chances of getting peace

285
00:11:29,959 --> 00:11:35,040
talks and an end to this historic Civil

286
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,360
War are going to be rather dim I think

287
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,920
because it'll just be Reviving all the

288
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:43,079
old bloodlust of the last 20 30 years

289
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,920
war war and more war if you want to

290
00:11:43,079 --> 00:11:47,399
understand what's happening in

291
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,360
Afghanistan this is the book to get

292
00:11:47,399 --> 00:11:51,760
ghosts of Afghanistan the haunted

293
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:54,160
Battleground by the Peerless Jonathan

294
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:57,200
steel thanks for joining us on the

295
00:11:54,160 --> 00:12:00,079
Sputnik after the break a tale of scal

296
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,959
dugery involving the Metropolitan police

297
00:12:00,079 --> 00:12:03,959
who would have thought it casting light

298
00:12:01,959 --> 00:12:06,240
into the shadowy world of undercover

299
00:12:03,959 --> 00:12:08,760
cops the organizations they tried to

300
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,000
wreck the women whose Hearts they broke

301
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,200
and the children they abandoned we'll be

302
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,200
right

303
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,320
back last month in a humiliating

304
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,800
judgment the court of appeal in London

305
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:25,240
quashed the convictions of dozens of

306
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,480
environmentalists originally convicted

307
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,480
of hijacking a CO train on its way to a

308
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,399
power station on the grounds that the

309
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,079
British government prosecutors had

310
00:12:31,399 --> 00:12:36,720
failed to disclose to the defense or to

311
00:12:34,079 --> 00:12:39,040
the judge in the original trial that the

312
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:41,600
effective ring leader of the hijack was

313
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:45,240
in fact a police officer operating

314
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:47,240
undercover as a provocator we now know

315
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,360
that this officer Mark Kennedy was one

316
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:52,279
of the many undercover cups who had been

317
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:55,120
told to grow their hair long tune in and

318
00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:57,800
drop out into a whole set of perfectly

319
00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:00,360
peaceful nonviolent and above all

320
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,279
entirely legal campaigning organizations

321
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,680
many of them household names like

322
00:13:02,279 --> 00:13:06,800
Friends of the earth I knew this case

323
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:09,040
was coming and would end this way

324
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:12,360
because I had the pleasure of reading

325
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:14,800
one of the books of last year undercover

326
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,760
published by Guardian Faber I'm glad to

327
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:20,120
say we've got one of the authors of

328
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:23,279
undercover Rob Evans with us now Rob

329
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,760
Evans you're the co-author of undercover

330
00:13:23,279 --> 00:13:27,560
published by Guardian Faber you brought

331
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:30,880
along a copy but I've actually bought

332
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:33,839
two copies of this book it's that good

333
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:37,079
and it deals with the the activities of

334
00:13:33,839 --> 00:13:39,880
this undercover unit that was

335
00:13:37,079 --> 00:13:43,720
infiltrating all kinds of perfectly

336
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:46,320
legal peaceful nonviolent Civil Society

337
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:49,160
organizations in Britain in the 21st

338
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:51,920
century remarkable no yes it is yes I

339
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:54,839
mean we started looking at this uh at

340
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,440
the guardian three years ago and you

341
00:13:54,839 --> 00:13:59,720
know we did what journalists do which is

342
00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,279
you just follow leads and we we we found

343
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,600
you know just kept on going because it

344
00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:06,639
was an astonishing story and until uh

345
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:11,040
Mark Kennedy was the first undercover

346
00:14:06,639 --> 00:14:13,680
officer to be uh exposed in uh late 2010

347
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,880
I don't think people out there really uh

348
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,399
understood what what was going on or

349
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,560
would have imagined that the state would

350
00:14:17,399 --> 00:14:22,440
have gone to such lengths you know to

351
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:26,079
infiltrate these type of groups and

352
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:29,839
these groups by and large had no History

353
00:14:26,079 --> 00:14:32,360
of Violence or crime they were

354
00:14:29,839 --> 00:14:34,519
uh perfectly peaceful organizations some

355
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,519
of them household names some of them

356
00:14:34,519 --> 00:14:40,399
meeting in the stram library very close

357
00:14:36,519 --> 00:14:41,720
to where we live who knew uh in that

358
00:14:40,399 --> 00:14:43,639
particular group the police had a

359
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,120
majority at one stage in the

360
00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:47,959
organization the number of police

361
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:51,320
officers attending the meetings was was

362
00:14:47,959 --> 00:14:54,680
a majority of those attending this is

363
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:57,440
not policing but Aon provocator surely

364
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,600
well there is what the what the

365
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,959
undercover officers were there to do was

366
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:05,199
to pick up in advanced intelligence

367
00:15:01,959 --> 00:15:07,320
about demonstrations um that were going

368
00:15:05,199 --> 00:15:09,880
to happen so they're there to pick up

369
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,199
all the information they can they can

370
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,800
about the protests that were being

371
00:15:11,199 --> 00:15:16,759
organized and this went across right

372
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:19,000
across this uh political spectrum and

373
00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:21,120
some of the groups they did inter uh

374
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,920
infiltrate you know did carry out

375
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,639
violent violent acts that you know

376
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:29,480
because they inter infiltrated um you

377
00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:31,560
know Nazi groups and some animal

378
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,680
Liberation groups as well but there are

379
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,600
a large number of other groups that were

380
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,880
you know carrying out just perfectly

381
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:41,399
peaceful lawful peaceful tree

382
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,240
hugging the most shocking of all of

383
00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:46,560
course the one that has gotten your book

384
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,759
most publicity and deservedly is so is

385
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,600
the uh question of the police

386
00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:53,199
infiltration of the campaign around the

387
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:56,000
issue of Steven Lawrence the murdered

388
00:15:53,199 --> 00:15:57,959
black teenager in South London you

389
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,319
couldn't get a much more respectable

390
00:15:57,959 --> 00:16:03,360
campaign to be involved in than the

391
00:16:00,319 --> 00:16:05,560
movement for justice for Steven Lawrence

392
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,880
yet a police officer whose face I

393
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:12,079
recognized out of your book was deeply

394
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:15,120
embedded in that cause please tell us

395
00:16:12,079 --> 00:16:17,440
yes I mean there were actually three uh

396
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:20,720
undercover officers during the three of

397
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:24,319
them in the mid 90s who were embedded in

398
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:27,480
groups that supported you know the cause

399
00:16:24,319 --> 00:16:28,920
uh of Steven Lawrence and they were

400
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,720
there you know to pick up and

401
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,399
Intelligence on what those groups were

402
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,240
were doing but it goes even wider than

403
00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:37,199
that because the thing with Steven

404
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,240
Lawrence is that everyone you know can

405
00:16:37,199 --> 00:16:40,519
remember and everyone knows that name

406
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,800
but during that time there are a whole

407
00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:45,680
load of other groups uh other um

408
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,000
instances where black people have been

409
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:52,079
had died at the you know in police

410
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:54,199
custody the black Justice campaigns and

411
00:16:52,079 --> 00:16:56,079
we tell the story of Peter Francis in

412
00:16:54,199 --> 00:16:58,199
the book who has come out he's the only

413
00:16:56,079 --> 00:17:01,240
one who's come out and you know actually

414
00:16:58,199 --> 00:17:05,000
said this is what I did um and he says

415
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:06,679
that he was also there to um pick up

416
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,439
Intelligence on all of those black

417
00:17:06,679 --> 00:17:12,039
Justice groups as

418
00:17:08,439 --> 00:17:15,120
well well I recognized the

419
00:17:12,039 --> 00:17:18,400
aforementioned uh gentleman uh from the

420
00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:19,559
book but I have a unfortunately an even

421
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,160
closer

422
00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:26,559
Association uh with in a way the most

423
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:29,520
senior of the policemen unmasked by you

424
00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:31,720
and others but you in the book bring us

425
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:35,360
remarkable information about him his

426
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:37,880
name was Bob Lambert I had no idea that

427
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:40,600
he had been a police spy and a

428
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:43,000
particularly disreputable one tell us

429
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:46,080
the story of Bob Lambert Bob Lambert was

430
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:48,440
a very skillful operator and he was a

431
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:51,120
very convincing man when he was

432
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,559
undercover and uh he was undercover for

433
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:56,039
four or five years in the mid 80s in

434
00:17:53,559 --> 00:17:57,720
environmental and animal rights groups

435
00:17:56,039 --> 00:18:00,679
during that time he had relationships

436
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:03,320
with four women and one of them he went

437
00:18:00,679 --> 00:18:05,840
on he he had a child with that with the

438
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:09,280
woman none of the four knew that he was

439
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:13,600
an undercover copper and uh the he

440
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:17,600
walked out on he abandoned her and their

441
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:20,880
child their boy yeah um in the late 80s

442
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:23,000
and um took no part in in you know in

443
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:26,360
helping to bring up that child and she

444
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:29,120
only found out by chance 24 years later

445
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:31,400
that he had been an undercover copper by

446
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:33,120
which time the child was grown up was in

447
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,520
his had thought his father had just

448
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:38,159
walked out of his life yes yes the the

449
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:40,120
mother she's she's taken it very badly

450
00:18:38,159 --> 00:18:43,320
and she's now needed treatment for it

451
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:46,440
she and uh a group of around 10 women

452
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,799
are now taking legal action against the

453
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,159
police uh because you know they say

454
00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:53,799
they've suffered enormous emotional

455
00:18:51,159 --> 00:18:56,200
Trauma from having relationships with

456
00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:59,039
men these are long substantial very

457
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:02,480
meaningful relationships with men they

458
00:18:59,039 --> 00:19:05,240
didn't realize at the time um where SP

459
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:08,559
on them were spies yeah and that they

460
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:11,400
found out many years later were spies

461
00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:13,880
and uh they they've said that the police

462
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,320
have done are responsible for the trauma

463
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:19,080
that they and Devastation that they've

464
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,760
uh that that they've suffered I just I'm

465
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:24,000
just so astonished at the fact how easy

466
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,480
it is for them to go from one to the

467
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:29,120
other disguise presumably changing names

468
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:31,520
as well yes and all the legal pap that

469
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:35,440
comes with it must go all smoothly for

470
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:37,640
them well the thing about what the when

471
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,159
the when the uh police set up this

472
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:43,640
undercover unit they went to very

473
00:19:40,159 --> 00:19:46,200
elaborate uh lengths um to make sure

474
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:49,039
that this byy the officers who went

475
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:52,480
undercover would not be discovered so

476
00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:55,720
they in effect uh you know fitted the

477
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,799
the the spies had to develop their own

478
00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,720
fake persona and it had to be very

479
00:19:57,799 --> 00:20:03,320
convincing and they went down you know

480
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,559
into the archives and found the the

481
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:09,960
records you know found a boy who had

482
00:20:05,559 --> 00:20:13,400
died at a young age and in effect took

483
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:16,240
over identity took their identity as if

484
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:18,640
they were then the they then assumed

485
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:22,200
their their identity as if that boy had

486
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,440
grown up it's like a cold Cas CSA yes uh

487
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,799
yeah it's like the activities of

488
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,320
criminals rather than uh police officers

489
00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:31,159
so there's the identity of a dead baby

490
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,799
has been stolen uh without the knowledge

491
00:20:31,159 --> 00:20:36,640
of the parents without the knowledge of

492
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:39,600
the parents a woman is falsely drawn on

493
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:44,159
a false basis drawn into a relationship

494
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:46,640
children are then born then abandoned uh

495
00:20:44,159 --> 00:20:48,799
it's a pretty sorry story what kind of

496
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:51,120
men are they that do this kind of thing

497
00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:53,360
for a living well the best undercover

498
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:55,840
officers are always the best Liars you

499
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:57,240
know they're very convincing and they

500
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,840
have to be convincing if they're going

501
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,760
to survive out there otherwise they will

502
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,360
get rumbled because a lot of the

503
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,799
activists that they are infiltrating are

504
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:08,600
actually quite you know they're pretty

505
00:21:05,799 --> 00:21:10,600
clued up people yeah yeah and they can

506
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,240
not they can they get a feeling about

507
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,240
people if they're not right so a lot of

508
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,360
these are you know Bob Lambert For

509
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,840
example was one of the best operators

510
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,840
that we know about there may have been

511
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:23,720
others we have no idea about because

512
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,880
they were so smooth that we we don't uh

513
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:28,600
have even a clue about but they were

514
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:30,600
very convincing must be an expensive

515
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,679
business also because you're creating a

516
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,760
false identity for someone over many

517
00:21:32,679 --> 00:21:37,600
years yes so he has to have his actual

518
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,559
house where his real wife and children

519
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:43,039
live and he's got to have a fake house

520
00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:45,320
cover paid for by the state paid for by

521
00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:47,039
the state he's got to have a vehicle in

522
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:50,360
both places he got to you got to have a

523
00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:51,960
life in both places yeah what Justified

524
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:54,200
this huge expenditure from the

525
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:57,360
Metropolitan police's budget well that's

526
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,840
the question isn't it I mean at the

527
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,320
heart of all of this is the

528
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,679
justification why you know I think

529
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,880
people out there can say can think well

530
00:22:03,679 --> 00:22:08,360
okay then if you're infiltrating the IRA

531
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,279
you know we can see why you did that but

532
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:12,440
here the question that a lot of people

533
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:15,919
are asking is why is the state going to

534
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,200
such lengths you know and duplicity to

535
00:22:15,919 --> 00:22:20,799
infiltrate groups that you know were

536
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,279
committing you know minor crime really

537
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:24,640
if they were committing crime but

538
00:22:22,279 --> 00:22:27,279
they're not direct threat to the state I

539
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,840
assume well that's that's it depends how

540
00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:30,840
you define a threat to the state States

541
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,960
I mean all these undercover officers in

542
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,600
that particular Unit were special Branch

543
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,600
officers and special Branch was there

544
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,919
basically to collect information about

545
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,960
political activists that they perceived

546
00:22:40,919 --> 00:22:47,320
were a threat to the state The $64,000

547
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,520
Question is is this still going on the

548
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,640
people who are watching this who are

549
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:53,159
involved in Civil Society organizations

550
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,600
how worried should they be that the

551
00:22:53,159 --> 00:22:58,159
woman or the man sitting next to them is

552
00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:00,080
actually a copper yes well I mean I

553
00:22:58,159 --> 00:23:02,799
think is still going on basically

554
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:06,960
because the police make no attempt to

555
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:11,320
say it stopped um at what level and what

556
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:13,919
extent I don't know but uh uh I think

557
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,799
they are still out there all the

558
00:23:13,919 --> 00:23:18,720
information that has come out has not

559
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:21,360
come out you know because the state has

560
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,559
wanted to tell us this it's come out

561
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:26,400
because of you know the work the

562
00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:27,799
detective work of either the campaigners

563
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,000
or whistleblowers who have come and

564
00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:32,559
talked to us

565
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:35,360
and you uh who with Paul Lewis produced

566
00:23:32,559 --> 00:23:38,760
this really wonderful book I I said last

567
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:41,480
year that this was one of the books of

568
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,840
2013 I tell you it's still repays

569
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,240
reading today Rob Evans thanks for

570
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,720
joining us on the Sputnik thank you very

571
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,720
much for having

572
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,679
me now it's your turn to tell us what

573
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,480
you think in the social media review

574
00:23:55,679 --> 00:24:01,080
gatri what's rattling I asked whether 12

575
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,360
year war in Afghanistan was worth it and

576
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:06,679
what was actually gained from it the

577
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:08,880
verdict was unanimous Mark Walder says

578
00:24:06,679 --> 00:24:11,360
for Western Government regarding oil and

579
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,320
opium yes there was a lot to gain for

580
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:17,039
the people of Afghanistan and the region

581
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:19,960
of course not and on Facebook Mitchell

582
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:22,080
HW says well we did at least give the

583
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,120
Warlords and Drug producers back their

584
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,360
Liberty to Reign Terror over the world

585
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:28,960
following on from the lovely Taliban and

586
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:31,440
all their libertarian views the UK and

587
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,159
us back the mujahedin back in the day

588
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,520
getting rid of the only legitimate

589
00:24:33,159 --> 00:24:38,080
government in memory they brought

590
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,240
stability in Afghanistan but not a pro

591
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,679
Western stance so off they went and

592
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,480
following on came Al-Qaeda well that

593
00:24:42,679 --> 00:24:47,919
this is a very important point that the

594
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,679
government that came before the US

595
00:24:47,919 --> 00:24:56,120
intervention in Afghanistan in

596
00:24:50,679 --> 00:24:58,760
1979 was briefly ws and all the only

597
00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:01,080
progressive government of any kind that

598
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,480
Afghanistan has ever had they talk about

599
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,840
women's rights that's the only period

600
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,559
where girls went to school women went to

601
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,200
universities Jordan Turner says it's a

602
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:14,279
waste of life the Taliban will have full

603
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:16,760
control again within what 10 years to Wi

604
00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:20,000
Daniel Mason replies are you being

605
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,919
serious I would say 10 hours it won't be

606
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,440
10 hours but it definitely won't be uh

607
00:25:21,919 --> 00:25:25,960
10 years it could be 10 weeks that's all

608
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,799
we've got for this week which

609
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,240
unfortunately means that's the end of

610
00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:33,080
the show keep contacting us and tweeting

611
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,919
us on rtor Sputnik and on Facebook you

612
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,320
can find us on Sputnik on Russia today

613
00:25:35,919 --> 00:25:42,600
it's goodbye from me gatri and from me

614
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,600
George Galloway it's been marvelous