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[Music]

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[Music]

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[Music]

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me Gayatri

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in the late 1970s Britain was in deep

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political and economic crisis a class

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struggle was raging a Labour government

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clinging to power or a sergeant right

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led by Margaret Thatcher grasping for

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that power not to just shake it but to

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break the Kaleidoscope things the

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British never dared think like the

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possibility of a military coup led by

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the Queen zanko Mountbatten or the state

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waging covert war against the citizenry

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appeared on the agenda and on the

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streets the now noble Lord Dobbs then

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plane Michael a functionary of Margaret

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Thatcher was at the heart of things when

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it was over and Dobbs discarded by the

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Iron Lady

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he wrote the house of cards a bleak but

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all too plausible novel about the dark

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places in British politics it was a

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great success

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especially when turned into a BBC

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classic TV series the series then

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crossed the Atlantic for a US version

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released by Netflix which was though it

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hardly seemed possible even darker and

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more brilliant than the original earning

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Golden Globes and Emmys by the Dozen and

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for Lord Dobbs more plaudits and those

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an English gentleman he couldn't

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possibly comment more millions of pounds

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than he could ever have dreamt of when

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he first put pen to paper all those

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years ago earlier in Parliament I caught

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up with the author Lord Dobbs more than

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25 years ago you wrote the novel house

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of cards it has become just a phenomenal

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success both as a book and as a

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television series in Britain now in the

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United States you must be very proud of

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it it must be a great achievement I'm

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not sure I'm very proud of it in the

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sense I'm not quite sure how much I

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deserve all of this was the claim but

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I'm desperately glad and happy with it I

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mean it's changed my life it changed my

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life 25 years ago when I started writing

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it as a

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cleat accident it was the first thing I

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never written and I only wrote it on

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holiday as a almost as a result of a pet

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and Minh didn't even know that I would

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finish it let alone get it published

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yet it's changed my life and is still

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changing my life to this day and all for

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the better so not proud but actually

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really pleased to be associated with it

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mrs. Thatcher of course was your

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employer to what extent does this

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darkness at the heart of house of cards

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and it's successors and it is very dark

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in places come from your real-life

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experience

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in British politics ooh a huge amount of

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it I mean you'll remember those days

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just before Maggie Thatcher got into

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power in 1979 we had a Labour government

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that was teetering on the brink week

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after week night after night it was

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surviving by majorities of one or two

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big ideological battles and politics in

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those days much more so than they are in

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this country today and people were

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willing to risk everything to win those

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battles even their lives I mean we know

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that there are MPs who got from out of

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their sick beds and came to Parliament

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in order to vote and risk their lives in

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doing so and some of them actually gave

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their lives and it was commitment on

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both sides for what they believed in and

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I've always been a bit of a bit of a

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sucker for that you know politicians who

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actually believe in something and so

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because it was it was a form of warfare

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yeah there were all sorts of dark bits

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going on tricks being played and I keep

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saying that 90% of what went into house

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of cards I had witnessed or been part of

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but not in the same week or from the

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same person but it politics is a rough

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and tough business and that's what the

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book tried to reflect nobody was killed

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I'm assuming I don't know the statute of

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limitations but I don't want to

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incriminate yourself in any anyone being

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tossed off the roof of this building

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although I did encourage John Major when

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he was having a very tough time with the

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to start holding his press conferences

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on the roof yes the bastard who made his

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life misery they could have been tossed

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over there like like Matty so the spring

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for this magnificent achievement as I

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described it is your real life

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experience in British politics I found

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as a parliamentarian now for more than a

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quarter of a century myself I found the

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house of cards as you put eighteen

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ninety percent absolutely in touch with

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what actually goes on here a bit of

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exaggeration bit of journalistic poetic

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license when it transferred across the

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Atlantic I didn't think it was possible

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for the story to get darker but it has

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house of cards us which has launched

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with a great fanfare this week and has

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won all these Golden Globes and Emmys

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and so on the US Edition is darker than

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the British is that you think are a

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proper reflection of the relative

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darkness between the two places I think

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the first thing that's important is that

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it does transfer and can transfer

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because it's not about it's not about

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politics it's simply about people in

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politics great drama is not based around

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the minutiae of this policy or that

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policy

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it's based about that the passions and

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the vulnerabilities and the courage and

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the frailties of people in politics and

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its character that makes great drama and

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this Westminster Washington they are

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some of the greatest back cloths you

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could possibly have the great drama the

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American that say in much the same way

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as the end of the Thatcher era was a

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wonderful time for some rather cynical

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tongue-in-cheek political dramas house

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of cards was now is a very good time for

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this sort of approach in in Washington

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because people are crying out for

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something different it's all very well

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having people who like that President

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Obama who wants to be good and do great

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things but actually at the end of the

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day that in itself is not enough when we

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watched in more innocent days

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more backward days when we watched house

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of cards we have to wait Sunday night I

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think it was were to wait for each

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Sunday night to see what happened next

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then we could buy box sets of DVDs which

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is how I watched the American first

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American series but the method that's

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been chosen of Netflix who releases

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everything at one go

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thus for obsessives like me

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I'll watch I'm sure the entire series

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over one weekend and I can do it by

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subscribing to Netflix I know you won't

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have been involved in Nestle in the

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minutiae of the platforms that are being

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used but does it seem to you that that's

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the the shape of things to come the mass

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release complete release of our whole

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series it was one of the hugely exciting

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parts of this for me I mean when they

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came and said we want to buy the rights

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from you it's you're selling your house

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effectively but when they said that

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we're going to put Kevin Spacey and

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David Fincher in there I thought this

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you know I don't need to think about

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this and then to be part of what is

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really a television revolution Netflix

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came out of the the industry that was

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renting out DVDs and things like that

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knew that that was not going to be

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enough to make it happen they decided to

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put a lot of money into original program

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cramming their programming and released

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it on the internet and gambling gambling

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their careers individual careers but

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gambling littering billions of dollars

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because there are many people involved

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in in this that this is going to be the

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way ahead this is the way that people

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will want to watch their television in

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years to come and they chose house of

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cards to be the the cutting edge of this

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is the first thing they had done as

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original programming and it's had an

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extraordinary effect we still have to

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see whether that revolution is really

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going to take hold I think it will but

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and the stock market believes it will

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Netflix share price in the last year

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since they issued the first series of

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house of cards has more than tripled I

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hope you had some sure you know they've

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they the rough figures are that a year

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ago they had 30 million

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subscribers now they've got 40 million

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subscribers another 10 million

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subscribers and they are just starting I

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mean the business plan seems to be

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extraordinary so it's not only fantastic

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drama and what they have produced and I

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think is just brilliant

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I think this long form of television is

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going to in the end supplant even movies

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I don't mean to say that movies are

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gonna close down but the depth of

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characterization that you can achieve

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over a long TV series if you're

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releasing it especially through Netflix

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and one go is far greater than you'll

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get in one 90 minute or 110 minute movie

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and it interested me in Hollywood now

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the buzz is all about television series

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I mean home lad The Sopranos had the

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wire you have had homeland Breaking Bad

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and things like very clear and indeed

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even Downton don't ennoble

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and and you're absolutely right and to

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combine that time that concentration on

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developing characters which is really

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what makes drama work and also providing

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it at the same time so you don't have to

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artificially break everything up hour

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after hour after hour and leave create

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an artificial climax at the end of one

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episode hoping that you can remember the

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viewer will remember it in a week's time

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you don't need to do that so it's

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liberating creatively to Lord Dobbs

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thank you very much indeed

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Georgia you're Sputnik thank you coming

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up after the break the best foreign

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secretary britain never had and again a

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man who served a prime minister in

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number 10 Downing Street we'll be right

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back

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welcome back to Sputnik the right

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honourable Sir Gerald Kaufman PC MP has

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been in Parliament nearly 50 years but

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before that was a brilliant journalist

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and an assistant in Downing Street to

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the Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson

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if fleeber hadn't been out of power so

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long he would have been foreign

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secretary and what a difference to the

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world that would have made Gerald

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Kaufman's relatives were murdered in the

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Holocaust and he grew up an ardent

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supporter of the State of Israel now he

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is the clearest most authoritative voice

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against the crimes committed by that

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state and for justice for their victims

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last week in Parliament he said it was

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time for international sanctions against

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Israel and spoke of the sea of misery in

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the Gaza Strip it's a privilege to have

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him with us on the sputnik today so

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Gerald your speeches always travel far

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they have such authority and such

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clarity but none more than the speech

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you made on Gaza last week you're no

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stranger to Gaza you've seen firsthand

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that sea of misery tell our viewers

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about it I led a delegation of 60

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parliamentarians from 13 European

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Parliament's to Gaza not long ago it was

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a year after the attack by the Israelis

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which failed as all Israeli attacks now

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do though with huge loss of life called

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Operation Cast Lead a year afterwards

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the smoke from the white phosphorus

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bombardment by Israel was still fuming

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away people say rightly that the Syrians

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use chemical weapons

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nobody condemns the Israelis for using

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chemical weapons well I do the massive

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military destruction is of course

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compounded by the economic misery

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the blockade means that no meaningful

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economic activity

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can take place there the tunnels through

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which some means of life were passing

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have been destroyed on the Egyptian side

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and I think you are describing in

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Parliament the condition of life of

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those Palestinians who have survived

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these military attacks tell us scarcely

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any food is allowed to be brought in so

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everybody but particularly the young

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people and the children are

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undernourished which have affects them

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so much that it will go on to future

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generations they have hardly any fresh

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water just for a few hours every five

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days so they're diseased in that way

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they have no fuel of their own which

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means apart from anything else that a

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great deal of the transport now is by

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horse or donkey there's hardly any

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electric electrical power indeed on a

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recent summer because there wasn't

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enough electricity for air-conditioning

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in nearby tel-aviv they cut off the

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electricity in the Gaza Strip and Qatar

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had to intervene and see what it could

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do which wasn't enough no building

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materials are brought in so that the

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schools that the Israelis destroyed in

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some cases with children in them cannot

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be rebuilt medical facilities are at

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their minimum if any other country on

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earth was doing what the Israelis have

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been doing to 1.7 million Palestinians

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in Gaza there will be United Nations

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resolutions there will be calls for an

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intervention there will be sanctions but

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the Israelis literally get away with

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murder I'll come back to sanctions in a

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minute now you're Jewish your family

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suffered some perished in the Holocaust

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the

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greatest of all crimes which took place

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in the 20th century perhaps the greatest

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of all crimes ever and you grew up a

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supporter of the State of Israel what

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changed your mind

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as you say George I grew up a support of

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the State of Israel I I was brought up

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as a Zionist I went to Israel again and

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again and again on holiday

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I had family there I had friends there

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but as I traveled around because it's a

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small area I would see not just Israelis

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in Israel living in huge comfort

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subsidized by the Americans I would see

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settlers in the illegal settlements

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living in huge comfort and minutes away

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I will go to a Palestinian Township or

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village and see sewage flowing through

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the streets and if you have any sense of

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justice at all and as a Jewish child I

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was brought up with a sense of justice

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the disparity is unacceptable and it's

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got worse it's got worse and worse and

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worse the whole time and the Israelis

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00:16:52,940 --> 00:16:57,529
live in comfort I've gone through Tel

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Aviv and see them sitting at their

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pavement cafes complacently enjoying

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themselves while hardly any distance

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away the gap people in the Gaza Strip

365
00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:12,049
are living in total misery but don't

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let's forget the people on the West Bank

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they're living in misery as well now of

368
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course it is routine for Israeli

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propagandists to pray in aid the

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suffering of the Jewish people in the

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Holocaust you reject that as a cover

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don't you I reject it with utter

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contempt and anger

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most of my parents families because my

375
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parents came here as refugees

376
00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:48,890
most of my parents families were

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murdered in the Holocaust when the

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Germans came to the town from which my

379
00:17:51,710 --> 00:17:59,420
mother came in Poland stash off they

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lined up all the Jews - marched the

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railway station to be put in cattle

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wagons but for those who were not well

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enough to March they killed them on the

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spot and they killed my grandmother who

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00:18:10,340 --> 00:18:18,020
was ill in bed by shooting her in her

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bed my grandmother did not die to

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provide cover for Israelis murdering

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00:18:20,540 --> 00:18:26,150
Palestinian grandmothers well it's hard

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00:18:22,970 --> 00:18:29,630
to put it any more powerfully than than

390
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:32,690
that let's turn to what can be done

391
00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:35,750
about it there is of course a civil

392
00:18:32,690 --> 00:18:38,920
movement of boycott and fight for

393
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:42,380
divestment and even individual sanction

394
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:45,680
but you went further in your speech in

395
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Parliament last week you say it's time

396
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:51,320
for international official governmental

397
00:18:49,150 --> 00:18:55,100
sanctions against Israel how would that

398
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:58,790
work the Israelis have a very high first

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00:18:55,100 --> 00:19:02,540
world standard of living that standard

400
00:18:58,790 --> 00:19:06,020
living depends partly on huge financial

401
00:19:02,540 --> 00:19:09,520
subsidies by the United States under the

402
00:19:06,020 --> 00:19:12,110
subpoena spineless Barack Obama and

403
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:15,680
every politician pretty well in the

404
00:19:12,110 --> 00:19:18,530
United States yields to the Jewish

405
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,990
pressure groups and that's why they dint

406
00:19:18,530 --> 00:19:25,220
do anything about it even if they wanted

407
00:19:20,990 --> 00:19:29,870
to do something about it the European

408
00:19:25,220 --> 00:19:34,340
Union is inactive the British government

409
00:19:29,870 --> 00:19:41,240
is inactive the Prime Minister David

410
00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:44,630
Cameron described the Gaza Strip as a

411
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:48,200
prison camp but he so happened that he

412
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said that when he was visiting a Muslim

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country to Turkey and wanting to

414
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:57,350
ingratiate himself with his hosts

415
00:19:54,490 --> 00:20:00,530
hardly anything is done which is why

416
00:19:57,350 --> 00:20:02,630
lots of people including me take part in

417
00:20:00,530 --> 00:20:05,870
boycotts but the boycotts while

418
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:09,560
important are insufficiently effective

419
00:20:05,870 --> 00:20:12,760
what we need and what I press for and

420
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:16,460
we'll go on pressing for is governments

421
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:19,940
the United Nations the European Union

422
00:20:16,460 --> 00:20:23,180
the United States our own country to

423
00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:27,080
impose economic sanctions so that the

424
00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:29,840
Israelis can feel what international

425
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:32,270
opinion meal means there's no point in

426
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,680
condemning them there's certainly no

427
00:20:32,270 --> 00:20:35,240
point in appealing to their better

428
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,060
nature because they don't have a better

429
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,820
nation you've got to make them suffer

430
00:20:38,060 --> 00:20:43,760
because that's the only way they will

431
00:20:40,820 --> 00:20:48,140
feel anything and economic sanctions

432
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:50,900
would erode this huge first world

433
00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:53,900
standard of living which they enjoy on

434
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:57,470
borrowed money what you described

435
00:20:53,900 --> 00:21:00,290
earlier was an apartheid system I'm one

436
00:20:57,470 --> 00:21:02,630
of the few people on the Left who was

437
00:21:00,290 --> 00:21:05,270
ever in apartheid South Africa was there

438
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:07,490
underground for the African National

439
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:10,430
Congress and the situation you described

440
00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:14,720
of the settlers living in great comfort

441
00:21:10,430 --> 00:21:18,500
was the indigenous owners of the land

442
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:20,890
live in utter misery apartheid was

443
00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:23,600
broken between the hammer of the

444
00:21:20,890 --> 00:21:26,410
struggle of the African people and the

445
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:30,170
anvil of international solidarity

446
00:21:26,410 --> 00:21:34,130
including sanctions and boycott do you

447
00:21:30,170 --> 00:21:39,050
think that such a move is going to have

448
00:21:34,130 --> 00:21:41,810
an effect and if so when I - when I was

449
00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:45,470
shadow foreign secretary visited South

450
00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:47,780
Africa under apartheid as the guest of

451
00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:50,330
the South African Council of Churches

452
00:21:47,780 --> 00:21:56,870
and I was followed everywhere by South

453
00:21:50,330 --> 00:22:00,620
African secret police that that is a

454
00:21:56,870 --> 00:22:03,920
huge difference between the apartheid

455
00:22:00,620 --> 00:22:07,880
that the Israelis are inflicting on the

456
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:10,730
Palestinians and the loathsome an odious

457
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:13,850
that existed in South Africa there were

458
00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:17,870
distances considerable differences

459
00:22:13,850 --> 00:22:21,280
between Johannesburg Cape Town Durban

460
00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:27,640
and the South African the African

461
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:31,630
townships in Palestine it's minutes

462
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:35,809
minutes between the settlements or

463
00:22:31,630 --> 00:22:38,960
between Israel behind the 67 borders and

464
00:22:35,809 --> 00:22:41,570
the hell that they've created in Gaza

465
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:44,900
and on the West Bank

466
00:22:41,570 --> 00:22:47,750
so it's worse it's worse even than the

467
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:51,679
foul actions of the South African

468
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:55,600
apartheid government you've got to make

469
00:22:51,679 --> 00:23:00,700
these people feel it I'm not optimistic

470
00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:04,549
but I'm realistic nobody ever expected

471
00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:07,909
the Soviet Union to collapse in the way

472
00:23:04,549 --> 00:23:10,370
that it did but it happened nobody ever

473
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:12,289
expected apartheid in South Africa to

474
00:23:10,370 --> 00:23:12,919
collapse in the way that he did but it

475
00:23:12,289 --> 00:23:17,299
happened

476
00:23:12,919 --> 00:23:18,710
the Israelis are stupid to imagine that

477
00:23:17,299 --> 00:23:21,470
just because they've got the fourth

478
00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:22,880
largest arms forces in the world they

479
00:23:21,470 --> 00:23:26,539
can go on like this

480
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:29,049
I learned Greek at school and there was

481
00:23:26,539 --> 00:23:32,390
there's a phrase and the historian you

482
00:23:29,049 --> 00:23:35,840
through Citadis which says hunter-reay

483
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:39,370
and that means everything flows the

484
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:42,110
Israelis are barmy complacent and

485
00:23:39,370 --> 00:23:44,780
self-defeating to imagine that they can

486
00:23:42,110 --> 00:23:47,950
go on forever as they're going now so

487
00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:49,620
Joe Kaufman a privilege to talk to you

488
00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:52,230
[Music]

489
00:23:49,620 --> 00:23:55,350
now it's your turn to tell us what you

490
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:57,690
think in the social media review gantry

491
00:23:55,350 --> 00:24:00,120
what's rattling well everyone on Twitter

492
00:23:57,690 --> 00:24:02,669
supported of course was Sir general

493
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:03,809
Kaufman's was speaking out for in a

494
00:24:02,669 --> 00:24:07,140
parliament last week

495
00:24:03,809 --> 00:24:09,210
Lucien Quincy Senna said it's been a

496
00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:11,400
long time coming for sanctions against

497
00:24:09,210 --> 00:24:13,200
Israel whether we'll ever happen in our

498
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,820
lifetime is another matter

499
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,360
well I don't know I think it's an idea

500
00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:20,880
whose time has come and one I'm not sure

501
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:23,279
I may be a skeptic Ashurst because as

502
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,620
mr. Hoffman said it's not about the

503
00:24:23,279 --> 00:24:27,690
people the public opinion but the

504
00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:30,830
government that needs to bring forth

505
00:24:27,690 --> 00:24:34,159
this sanctions yes but as Gerald said

506
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:38,789
fearlessly in Greek everything flows

507
00:24:34,159 --> 00:24:40,260
that's right Suntory Pope says hitting

508
00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:42,360
the Israelis in their pockets with

509
00:24:40,260 --> 00:24:44,820
sanctions is the best way and that's all

510
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:46,350
for this week which alas means that's

511
00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:49,080
the end of the show you know where to

512
00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:51,059
reach us on twitter at RT underscores

513
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,340
put Nick and on Facebook you can find us

514
00:24:51,059 --> 00:24:55,500
on Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye

515
00:24:53,340 --> 00:24:58,730
for me Gayatri and for me George

516
00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:58,730
Galloway it's been marvelous

517
00:25:03,050 --> 00:25:06,099
[Music]

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00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:12,559
[Music]