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Okay, I get

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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway. Gat missed the

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bus but she'll be along in a minute. The

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British government in the 1980s

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destroyed the miners union. It was mere

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collateral damage. The destruction of

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the mining industry which still had a

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thousand years of coal under its feet.

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The mining communities in their hundreds

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of thousands then left on the

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postindustrial scrap heap and of course

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the country itself which thereafter was

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dependent on imported coal oil under

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other people's countries and for which

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we had to be ready to go to war although

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foreignowned nuclear power plants were

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briefly touted as an alternative. Now 30

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years later, the same British government

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is stealing the miners pension funds.

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Peter Stanovich is a rising star in

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British politics, and he's using his

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advocacy skills to speak up for the

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miners. And Leslie Mo is one of those

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retired miners whose pension fund has

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been nicked. Peter, Leslie, thanks for

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joining us. Peter, first of all, just

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tell us what this scandal is. Thank you,

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George. I'm a a very black and white

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sort of guy. I look at things as right

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and wrong. And when Les came to me with

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his story a week ago now, I literally

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rocketed from astonishment to anger to

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absolute outrage. What we're talking

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about here is a pension fund that our

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miners, national heroes, paid into over

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generations with their blood, with their

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sweat, many with their lives. All of

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these guys have got health related

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conditions now. They pay this money into

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their pension fund. We come to 1994 and

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under John Major's government, he

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decides to privatize the coal injury and

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the government says to the miners,

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"We'll underwrite your pension, but we

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want a whopping extortionate 50% of any

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surplus." And our miners are railroaded

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into this agreement. Now putting that

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into context, successive governments

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through that agreement have robbed and

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robbed is the only way to look at this 8

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billion pounds at least 8 billion quid

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from our miners pension fund. And we've

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recently seen this response to an FAI

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request from the Treasury saying the

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fund has not cost the government a

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single penny. So the government takes

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successive governments take 8 billion

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quid from the miners. It doesn't cost

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them a penny. At the same time, over the

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same period, we see governments bailing

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out greedy bankers, negligent bankers to

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the tune of 124 billion pounds at least.

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It's an absolute scandal, an absolute

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outrage. I I had never heard of this

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until you started advocating for it.

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This is one of the reasons why I wanted

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you on the on the show. Why has this

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been ignored? I' I've got to tell you um

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when they came to me with their story

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and I read this I personally felt this

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sense of shame because firstly how could

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we do this to national heroes that kept

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our homes our hospitals our schools warm

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that kept the wheels of our industry

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turning working in the most

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incomprehensibly dangerous conditions I

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felt personally ashamed I knew nothing

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about this and then I go to um research

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it there's very little out there and I

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had to come to the conclusion that

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mainstream media has deliberately kept

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this story away from the um public. I

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threw down the gauntlet after I put out

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those two films. Uh two mainstream media

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and I said, "Who has the to report this

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absolute travesty of justice?" Two

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people contact me. One Steve Toppel at

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the Canary who we both admire immensely

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and your producer Tim Allen. And here we

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are. And that says something about

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mainstream media and where to go for the

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truth from Little Acorns. Great oaks can

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grow. Do you know something? Um

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something that really struck me about

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the two films that I put out was this.

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Over the last week, I've been inundated

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with messages from miners all over the

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country that have said, "Peter, thank

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you for putting those films out. We felt

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that the British people had abandoned

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us, the miners." That's not true.

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Because when you look at the literally

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hundreds of comments on the films that I

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put out, there's this outpouring of

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love, affection, respect, and admiration

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for our miners because the British

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people know what our miners did for us.

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Leslie, I I I'm an honorary member of

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the National Union of Mine Workers since

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1982. Marty Lodge. Yes. South Wales

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area. Marty Lodge. Their pain means a

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lot to me. There are not many days that

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go by when I don't remember the great

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battle battles that uh I stood with you

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on. This is a very considerable insult

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added to the gigantic injury the mining

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communities have already suffered, isn't

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it? It it's it's a

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tremendous an absolutely tremendous

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outrage. There's no other way of saying

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it apart from it being an outrage. No

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other section of society would have been

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treated like this. It is a punishment.

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And what happened is the establishment

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has decided to punish the miners all the

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way to the graves. And they're doing it

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financially through our pension scheme.

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They tried it earlier as you will

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probably know through the Ridley

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Commission. Yeah. And then once that the

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pits have gone and privatizing, they

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still wanted to punish us. They wanted

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us to punish us for daring to stand up

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and fight for our jobs and communities.

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That's what they've done. And they're

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doing it through our pension scheme as

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you know uses all the way to the grave.

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That's right. 8 billion pounds. Well,

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imagine that's an estimate could have

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done in the mining communities, many of

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which are uh basically heaps now of

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desolated uh people. I mean, I I don't

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want to physically make the analogy too

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strong, but the the situation that's

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been left in the mining communities is

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now absolutely desperate. Mass

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unemployment, social problems, drug and

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alcohol abuse,

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hopelessness. 8 billion pounds could

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have transformed that. Yeah, that that's

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only a conservative figure. 8 billion.

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It is not the actual full figure because

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I believe we're we're actually if we had

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an actuary look at it, I think we'll be

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looking at 12 billion. I think it could

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be as high as 20 billion. And let's

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remember, we're talking about successive

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governments here. I think Steve Toppel

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reported yesterday that in

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2003, Tony Blair's government milked

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this pension for 400 million quid at a

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point when stocks and shares had taken a

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dive. They almost bankrupted the miners

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pension fund. We're talking about a

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Blairite government here doing just

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that. Well, uh that doesn't that doesn't

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surprise us. No, of course. Uh but how

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did the union agree? Perhaps they had no

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choice agree to this uh ploy by which

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they took 50% of any. They didn't

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actually agree to it. What what happened

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was after the strike of 95 there was

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five elected trustees and five appointed

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trustees. The five elected trustees were

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all

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NUM. The government then removed an NUM

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trustee saying that the UDM because of

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the numbers of its members this was the

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breakaway scab union that worked to

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break the strike. I'm I I'm going to

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correct you a little bit there. I I

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don't call it a union. I don't give it

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that credibility. It's a government

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agency. George, what happened was David

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Art came Margaret Thatcher's advisor. He

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provided the funding. He provided the

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expertise. He was the designer of the

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breakaway. He was the man who educated

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them what to do. So seeing as it's

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government agency or Margaret Thatcher's

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advisor and the and private money, it's

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their agent.

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They imposed a government agent onto the

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board which was Neil Gateex which has

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been in papers not long back for he was

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stealing money from an old folks home.

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He provided the vote to give the

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government access to our% of your he was

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the man who did it. Now that this this

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issue is in the public domain, there are

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serious questions that need to be asked

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about how this agreement came into

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being. I've only been involved a week

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and from what I can see trying to put

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the pieces together. We've got the

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government of today, John Major's

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government being a party to the

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agreement. We've got um British coal,

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but at that point in time still part of

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the nationalized industry. So we've got

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the government and British coal one and

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the same thing. And then we've got a

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handful of trustees of the pension fund.

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Now, how on earth did a handful of

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trustees to this pension fund get

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involved in this deal? Was there no

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actuary report to tell them what and

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those you're a legal man. Well, that

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these trustees had a a fiduciary

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fiduciary duty to the members whose

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funds they were and and you know, one

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would imagine that um the trustees of a

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pension fund would have access to a

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whole building full of actuaries

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chomping out figures who would be

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saying, "Hang on a moment. If we do this

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deal, it's unlikely to cost the

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government anything because sadly miners

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have a short life expectancy, but

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they'll be milking us for billions of

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pounds forever. It's extraordinary.

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Yeah, there actually was an act

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report. Wilson and Wyatt was an in-house

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actually service for the government.

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What their report suggested a sharing of

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15% for the government and 85 for the

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NUM. What happened was they totally

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ignored it. Was that report shared with

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the trustees of the fund? Well, I don't

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know about

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that. So, the government's own in-house

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actury recommended the government get

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15% of any surplus in your pension fund,

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but they actually took 50. The

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information is in the public domain.

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It's not something I've just conjured

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up. It is there for everybody to see.

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Everybody in this country. Well, that

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that just that makes me even more

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outraged, George, because think let's

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put this into context. There there is um

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an actuary report then you believe

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obtained by the government recommending

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an 85% split which in itself is

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outrageous. Was that report shared with

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the trustees of the pension fund? If it

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was, why was this information not

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disseminated to the miners? And if it

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wasn't shared with the trustees, why the

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hell didn't the trustees get their own

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actuary report? You know, it it's an

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absolute outrage. There needs to be a

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public inquiry, George, into how this

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disgraceful agreement came into being.

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And and I think that's a demand that we

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can win. Yeah. It's uh it's it's one

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thing that the miners union was

273
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destroyed, that the mining industry was

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destroyed, that the community was

275
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destroyed. But as Leslie put it in very

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very eloquent terms there, they they are

277
00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:26,160
determined to hunt and punish the miners

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all the way to the grave. As you put it,

279
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,079
they've got a short life expectancy.

280
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What happens next? What's your next

281
00:12:30,079 --> 00:12:35,760
stage? There is going to be a rally in

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Liverpool, which Les has arranged for

283
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the 27th of September. Yeah, you will

284
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probably be at the conference, will you,

285
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:46,320
George? Uh, no. But I I can be at your

286
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uh rally. Unfortunately, I'm not yet

287
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welcome in the labor. It would be it

288
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,720
would be incredible if you could be

289
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,120
there. But just to put this into

290
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,920
context, I I suggested to Les, why don't

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you make your rally a march and he said,

292
00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,279
"We can't do that because so many of the

293
00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:03,200
surviving members are now invalids.

294
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Their knees are knackered. They've got

295
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chronic chest conditions because of the

296
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:11,040
cold dust they inhale. They can't mark.

297
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I've been down uh many coal mines and

298
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:16,800
you correctly described it uh earlier.

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These men are heroes, national heroes,

300
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,920
and they've been robbed. Gentlemen,

301
00:13:19,279 --> 00:13:25,040
thanks for coming on board this neck.

302
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Coming up next, coups to the left of us,

303
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,760
jokers to the right. Just who is stuck

304
00:13:27,839 --> 00:13:33,880
in the middle with the people of Latin

305
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,880
America? Stay tuned.

306
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Welcome back to Sputnik and Guyatri's

307
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bus finally arrived. The Olympic Games

308
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have come and gone, leaving the people

309
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:48,720
of Brazil undoubtedly worse off and a

310
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:51,200
new dictatorship being formed. In

311
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,880
Argentina, a similar coup is being

312
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:56,079
carried through against the former

313
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:58,720
president and her political allies. In

314
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Venezuela, allout civil conflict remains

315
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,079
a possibility as US backed opposition

316
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:06,160
forces close in for a kill on President

317
00:14:04,079 --> 00:14:08,399
Maduro. In fact, everywhere except

318
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:11,040
Nicaragua, the left so recently

319
00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:12,720
hegimmonic is on the retreat. Joining us

320
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:16,480
now to discuss the wise and the

321
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:19,440
workforce is Dr. Juan Griera of the

322
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:21,800
University College London. Dr. Juan,

323
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:25,199
thanks for uh coming on board the

324
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,680
Sputnik. Uh do you accept our thesis uh

325
00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:29,920
for a start that the left is everywhere

326
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,880
on the retreat with the exception of

327
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:36,480
Nicaragua? Yes. So let me thank you for

328
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,480
uh having me here. And so I think it's

329
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,480
the great question of today. So what has

330
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,480
happened with the so-called pink tide?

331
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,959
Why it's retreating everywhere? What's

332
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:49,600
happened? Why is that like witnessing

333
00:14:44,959 --> 00:14:51,040
the end of uh a decade of left of

334
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,800
progressive governments in in the

335
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,839
region? that were certainly an exception

336
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:59,040
in in the world. So, um I would like

337
00:14:55,839 --> 00:15:00,560
though to to to question a bit the the

338
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,639
ways this is happening because this is

339
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,440
interesting as well and the ways we we

340
00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:07,440
characterize what's happening. Um so I

341
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,519
would begin begin by saying we shouldn't

342
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,560
use the word dictator dictatorship so

343
00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:14,720
easily because the region did uh new

344
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,839
proper dictatorships I mean military

345
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:20,240
power and a violent military power that

346
00:15:17,839 --> 00:15:22,800
led to the disappearance and torture and

347
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:25,360
uh and killing of many left militants.

348
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,720
So what we are witnessing now is

349
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,839
something that's uh

350
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:32,240
probably kind of could be called soft

351
00:15:29,839 --> 00:15:36,000
coups uh in the case of Brazil in the

352
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:40,160
case of Honduras uh certainly the case

353
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:42,800
of Paraguay those are those are tweaking

354
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,880
or ways of using the the democratic

355
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:48,240
system uh in a way that's fairly

356
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:51,199
undemocratic probably um in the case of

357
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:53,440
Argentina though we should we should see

358
00:15:51,199 --> 00:15:55,279
basically the electoral defeat of the

359
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:58,000
former president. So the

360
00:15:55,279 --> 00:16:00,399
characterization is certainly right and

361
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,160
uh I I agree that we should explain

362
00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:04,800
what's going on with why just before you

363
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:08,000
leave that point then if uh if someone

364
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:11,959
is removed from power democratically

365
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:14,480
uh and then the new power moves to

366
00:16:11,959 --> 00:16:17,720
criminalize marginalize

367
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:20,000
uh and even if they can imprison and

368
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,839
neutralize the people they have just

369
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,000
defeated. Yeah, I agree with you. It's

370
00:16:21,839 --> 00:16:26,000
not the same as the General Lisimos that

371
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:30,320
we used to have, but it is the beginning

372
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:32,639
of a soft dictatorship at least. Yes. Um

373
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:35,680
it is, but there is also something to be

374
00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:38,000
said about uh how those new governments

375
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,000
are going to be uh are going to to

376
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,680
sustain governability. So in the case of

377
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,560
dictatorships, you have governability

378
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,800
through basically force. in these new

379
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,399
cases. I think what's what's pathling as

380
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,560
well is that there is some degree of

381
00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:54,160
support for the macro government in the

382
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:56,639
case of Argentina. Uh it's less so in

383
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,800
the case of ter in Brazil. Uh and

384
00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:00,800
certainly well it was it was a different

385
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:04,799
case they went away but sometimes what

386
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:06,640
you also find is that this new right is

387
00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:09,199
actually being popular among the section

388
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,120
of of the population. Uh that was also

389
00:17:09,199 --> 00:17:12,640
the case with the with the old military

390
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:14,640
dictatorships. The problem of

391
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,160
governability is not a problem just for

392
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,839
the left, but it's also a problem for

393
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,319
the new governments. How the hell they

394
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:23,280
going to stay in power?

395
00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:26,240
Did the left make and uh I'll tell you

396
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:30,400
before you answer. I think uh the answer

397
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:34,960
to it is yes. Did the left make a series

398
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:37,679
of bad decisions? Uh were they guilty of

399
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:40,080
some of the failures and worse than

400
00:17:37,679 --> 00:17:43,919
failures that their opposition accused

401
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:47,039
them of? The most common thing for the

402
00:17:43,919 --> 00:17:48,880
left center uh like the left center

403
00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:52,000
reading of of the pink tide is to say

404
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:55,039
precisely that the pink tide is first of

405
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,039
all the product of um successful social

406
00:17:55,039 --> 00:18:00,160
movements like that in in the in the in

407
00:17:57,039 --> 00:18:04,080
2000s managed to to defeat neberalism

408
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:08,080
and then uh gave birth to these new

409
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:10,240
governments, right? Uh and so um and now

410
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,600
they made many mistakes or they were

411
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,360
unable to to deal with suppose with

412
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,600
corruption in their governments or or

413
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,679
they were unable to deal with some other

414
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,840
new forces that were threatening them

415
00:18:19,679 --> 00:18:23,919
such as the US or the new right. Yeah.

416
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,160
The US that's what I'm particularly

417
00:18:23,919 --> 00:18:29,039
interested. Do they perhaps have they

418
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,440
perhaps focused more on form ra than its

419
00:18:29,039 --> 00:18:35,840
structural content and that's why that

420
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:38,880
why is is fading? Uh yes I think well

421
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:42,080
anti-neol liberalism anti-US

422
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,520
domination well yeah I mean the of

423
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,600
course the the the the political

424
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,200
incidence of of the US is constant in

425
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,280
the region there's nothing I wouldn't

426
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,840
say that it's it's a new thing or it has

427
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,080
changed significantly but but where I

428
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,679
was trying to to go is it's right though

429
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,760
all those governments presented

430
00:18:55,679 --> 00:19:00,320
themselves as anti-oliberal

431
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,960
um and they were in a way the product of

432
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,120
the struggles of the '9s but but I I

433
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,799
think that if you explain the pink tide

434
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:08,559
this way, you can explain the rights of

435
00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:11,520
a pink tide, but you fail short in

436
00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:13,440
explain its demise. So what what went

437
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,840
wrong? Did they betray the movements?

438
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,240
Did they fail to do the right thing or

439
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:21,760
were they defeated by the by the right?

440
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,360
Um I think so say another explanation is

441
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,400
the right-wing explanation. These were

442
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:30,080
just populist movements u rotten and

443
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:32,799
crony capitalism uh leadership that was

444
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:35,280
completely personal. And so in that

445
00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:37,760
sense they can explain the demise

446
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,200
because it it was about time in one like

447
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,919
in their explanation but they can

448
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,080
explain the rise like why would someone

449
00:19:41,919 --> 00:19:46,799
like took power if they are so were so

450
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,559
rotten and corrupt and so on. So uh I

451
00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:53,360
think the the way out of the puzzle is

452
00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:57,280
to to see that so that the pink tide was

453
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:59,760
not the the the successful product of of

454
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,600
uh of social movements but rather the

455
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,480
response to social movements. So the the

456
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,960
the uh say the bourgeoa response to

457
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,880
social movements. So and and and if if

458
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,520
you look at at especially throughout the

459
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,039
region uh the more radical the social

460
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,039
movements managed to be suppose

461
00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:18,400
Venezuela with the caricasso or

462
00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:20,919
Argentina in 2001 uh or maybe uh the

463
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:23,360
case of Bolivia that had the the

464
00:20:20,919 --> 00:20:25,360
the war of water and then the war of

465
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:27,039
gas. So the more radical the social

466
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:31,200
movements, the more radical the the the

467
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:32,880
the products of of of them uh th those

468
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,520
those cases those countries who didn't

469
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:38,159
have uh such an important mobilization

470
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,120
such as Brazil or Uruguay then had

471
00:20:38,159 --> 00:20:42,520
really timid like more kind of more

472
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:45,760
close to

473
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,919
neoliberal social nealism case that they

474
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,640
just didn't change people's lives for

475
00:20:47,919 --> 00:20:54,000
the better enough. Well, and therefore

476
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,280
they had no base from Venezuela to hold

477
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,600
on to them. Yeah, Venezuela is a

478
00:20:55,280 --> 00:21:00,240
different case always. Uh it is true

479
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,960
they didn't do that. Um but but I think

480
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:05,200
they they they were there to do so

481
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,840
because of course this they all came

482
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,720
through at a moment of a large commodity

483
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,760
move. So uh the the region was having

484
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:16,400
more money than usually and uh there was

485
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,640
like there was certainly some well we

486
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,880
could say moderate or but but some could

487
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,360
say that's what we can we could do like

488
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:26,000
there was distri redistribution of money

489
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:28,480
certainly and and if you compare um

490
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,039
people's well-being in the '9s and in

491
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:33,280
the 2000s you can say most people's

492
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:35,120
lives improved. what they didn't do was

493
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,360
just like any kind of uh structural

494
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:40,159
trans transformation and they they came

495
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:43,280
I think uh one of the main things they

496
00:21:40,159 --> 00:21:45,760
did was institutionalize and demobilize

497
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:48,400
social the social movements. So they

498
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,640
what used to be uh quite active social

499
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,720
movements where one way or the other

500
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,720
incorporated into the state and the

501
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:57,200
state become to to to handle their

502
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,960
demands. So some people in Brazil speak

503
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,559
of the pastoralization of the social

504
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,799
movements. I don't know if that makes

505
00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:05,840
sense but uh it's an interesting image

506
00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:09,520
of of how what actually happened. So I

507
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:11,919
think if if you if you look at that then

508
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,159
uh the end of the pink type comes with

509
00:22:11,919 --> 00:22:17,760
the end of the community boom. So the

510
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:21,679
capacities of redistribution becomes way

511
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:23,840
way less um well yeah you have less

512
00:22:21,679 --> 00:22:25,760
capac like less capacity to redistribute

513
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,039
than the past. And the second thing is

514
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,080
that you have managed in 10 years to

515
00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:33,120
institutionalize most of of the

516
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:35,200
conflict. Isn't it the case that amongst

517
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:37,679
the big tide there was a lot of talk of

518
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:41,200
revolution but there wasn't really a

519
00:22:37,679 --> 00:22:42,720
revolution. uh this was moderate

520
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,080
reformism

521
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:49,760
and that moderate reformism didn't uh

522
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:51,600
alter things enough to create well I I

523
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,480
had the extraordinary good fortune to be

524
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,120
part of a conversation uh with Fidel

525
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,320
Castro and the late president Ugo Chavez

526
00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:03,120
in which uh the

527
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:05,360
commandante Castro said uh you don't

528
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:08,880
need to talk about socialism all the

529
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:11,039
time just do good things and Then people

530
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:15,840
when they like them explain, you know,

531
00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:17,840
this is actually socialism. Uh the the

532
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,480
re I suppose the question in the time

533
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:23,679
we've got left is can the left come

534
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,400
back? Will the pinks be back at least?

535
00:23:23,679 --> 00:23:30,400
Yes. Uh I think the left will need to

536
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:32,000
reconstruct itself in like not just uh

537
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,600
not just in Latin America but

538
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,120
everywhere. uh and I would say it c it

539
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,799
can certainly come back in in Latin

540
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:43,280
America once uh once it's able to show

541
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:45,120
the limits of uh more neoliberalism and

542
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,760
more austerity which is the only

543
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:50,559
proposal the the ruling classes seems to

544
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:53,919
have. So it's actually a challenge but I

545
00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:55,600
hope I hope there is space for that.

546
00:23:53,919 --> 00:23:58,480
Well that's an encouraging not what

547
00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:02,480
about Nicaragua just in 30 seconds. Uh,

548
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:05,679
okay. Is it Danielle uh back and uh back

549
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,200
in something like the previous guys? I

550
00:24:05,679 --> 00:24:09,120
think he's back in something like the

551
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,200
previous guys, but that's just in 30

552
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:13,679
seconds.

553
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,840
What an excellent answer, Dr. Juan.

554
00:24:13,679 --> 00:24:17,039
Thanks for coming on board the spot,

555
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,039
Nick. Thank you. And thanks for the

556
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:20,039
audience.

557
00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:25,039
And now it's your turn to tell us what

558
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,440
you think through the portals of social

559
00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:30,159
media. What's happening, guy? So on the

560
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:33,120
big scandal of the pension theft,

561
00:24:30,159 --> 00:24:35,120
Ricardo Picasso says, "Well, Tory MPs

562
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:37,200
could have a whip round and come up with

563
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:41,440
most of the 8 billion pounds there and

564
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:43,840
then, you know, 8 billion from areas

565
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,080
that have been economically devastated

566
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,919
for 30 years and will be for

567
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,480
generations. Utterly transformative."

568
00:24:47,919 --> 00:24:54,000
And yes, this is an ongoing theft. This

569
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:57,520
is stealing 50% of the surplus of a

570
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,279
pension fund of workers who die early

571
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,679
and therefore a pension fund that

572
00:24:59,279 --> 00:25:05,600
doesn't usually have to pay out very

573
00:25:01,679 --> 00:25:08,480
much. And on post Olympic Brazil uh and

574
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:11,440
the decline of pink tide Euromman and

575
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:15,039
activist says well Brazil has

576
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,960
interference from USA regime since 1960

577
00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:19,440
which means millions of dollars were

578
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,440
sent to the Brazilian military. Oh,

579
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,600
billions. Uh, there's an awful lot of

580
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,840
coffee in Brazil. Awful lot of

581
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,600
corruption, too. Well, that's all the

582
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,679
tweet that we have for today, which alas

583
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,360
means that's the end of the show. You

584
00:25:29,679 --> 00:25:33,480
can stay in touch with us on social

585
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:35,919
media through Twitter at

586
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,760
RT_Sputnik on Facebook, Sputnik on

587
00:25:35,919 --> 00:25:40,640
Russia Today. It's goodbye from me,

588
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,340
Gatri and from me, George Galloway. It's

589
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:47,880
been marvelous.

590
00:25:42,340 --> 00:25:47,880
[Music]

591
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,630
[Music]