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[Music]

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[Music]

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Okay.

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I can't

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[Music]

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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me, George Galloway, and me,

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Gayatri. The pen is mightier than the

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sword, and the cartoonist's pen can be

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the sharpest of them all. Over the last

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30 years, the likes of Spitting Image

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and Steve Bell have reduced one

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political leader after another to

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ridicule, and it worked. Few now see

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David Steel as other than a pocket

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handkerchief. Mrs. Thatcher as a

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monocular maniac, John Major as other

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than a pair of gray wrons, Tony Blair

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morphing into Mrs. Stature and so on. A

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new generation of savage penmen. And

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they are almost all men is emerging. And

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one of the sharpest of those is Darren

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Cullen, a political satirical artist

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whose work is featured in the

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prestigious Victoria and Albert Museum

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and at the brief but glorious family

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theme park unsuitable for children,

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Banksy's Dismaland. Talking of

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unsuitable for children, let's take a

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quick look at some of Darren's best

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work.

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So to get your

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Kick kick.

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Action.

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Action man. Battlefield casualties

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for PTSD. Action man. Danger laughs at

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every return.

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He never feels safe. Not even in his own

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home.

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Do what you can to block out the

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memories. Look, look. With no support

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from HQ, it's up to you to find a way.

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Looks like we're on our own.

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PTSD Action Man now comes with thousand

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yard stare action. With time running

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out, only you can stop the

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Let's get out of here.

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Action, man. That's absolute genius.

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I've got to tell you, it's the modern

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equivalent of Billy Connley's old gag.

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Join the army, visit exotic places, meet

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all kinds of different people, and kill

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them. Uh but this of course focusing on

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the way in which soldiers are abandoned

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after they're no longer any use to the

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killing machine. Uh you made it for a

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veterans group, didn't you? Yeah, it's

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Veterans for Peace UK and made it with

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the director Price James and we did it

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as part of a a kind of a campaign to

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draw attention to the fact that the UK

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is the only country in Europe and only

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one of 19 countries worldwide that still

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recruits 16 and 17 year olds into the

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armed forces. It's one of these things

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where we we kind of lecture the rest of

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the world on uh like child soldiers in

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Africa and and things like this when

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we're uh systematically targeting and

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recruiting children into our own armed

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forces. Oh, the British Army actually

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has its own range of toys. Uh HM armed

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forces. Toys? Yes. Aimed at ages four

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plus. They have a a small Now that's a

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boy soldier. No, no. So I don't take my

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boy to the to show. So you can just get

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it at the toy toy store. Yeah. In the

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Argos catalog, they have a full page of

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advertising it and they to inculcate the

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military spirit in our children. Yeah.

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Yeah. Thinking on a long-term strategy,

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governments and corporations have

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similar idea, which is if they want to

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protect their uh future, then they've

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got to capture the imaginations of

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children. And um the there's a the the

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army's head of recruitment strategy

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actually said that it starts with a

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seven-year-old seeing a parachute is an

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air display and from then on it's drip

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drip drip steady um kind of um pushing

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the idea that the military is just a fun

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kind of action-packed way of spending a

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few years of your life even if it ends

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like PTSD action man this question of uh

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advertising is is particularly

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important for us at the moment. We've

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got a young child who spends a lot of

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time, too much time, watching Peppa Pig.

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Other cartoons are available. Uh and uh

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in between each episode are screeds of

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advertising aimed at a 2-year-old child,

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aimed at the very smallest of children,

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so that they'll ask their parents,

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I I want that. Can I have the who of

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course will say no? But the funny thing

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is that these ads are in the same mood

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and in selling basically the same

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products as in my during my childhood.

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It's amazing how they can just reproduce

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that. Yeah. And there's the thing is

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that a child isn't aware that when

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they're being advertised to as well. I

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think it's only about the age nine or

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something that children actually can

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tell the difference between an advert

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and a regular program or a film. and

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they don't have any kind of um

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psychological u self-defense against

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these manipulation tactics uh which are

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being created by really intelligent and

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uh uh people with massive budgets in

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these advertising companies. Um and I

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think basically no advertising should be

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targeted at children whatsoever. In Keep

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the Aspadistra Flying, one of George

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Orwell's best novels, uh he has a

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character Gordon Comtock, who's an

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advertising man, who describes his work

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as legalized lying. You just escaped

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that because if I'm not wrong, you

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intended to go into that snake oil

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business. When I was younger, I thought

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that advertising was just would be a

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good way of of coming up with ideas for

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a living. And it wasn't until I went to

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art school in Glasgow that uh I started

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hanging around with with people who

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started kind of talking about these

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ideas about how advertising was actually

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really uh dangerous um and destructive

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um influence on society. If you look at

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um everything from um the skyrocketing

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rates of like anorexia, bulimia, status

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anxiety and depression, you can trace a

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lot of that to advertising as being a

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constant psychological assault on the

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population. Um and even things like uh

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global warming, the rates of consumerism

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that's feeding into that wouldn't be

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possible without advertising telling us

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constantly that we're missing something

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in our lives. Exactly. And it's

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everywhere. Right. This morning I was

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filling up a tank and while pumping

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while filling this up, I looked at my

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pump. There was a bit of space for

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advertisement. Yes. Especially when they

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say advertise here.

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Almost almost every brightly lit object

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in the outside world has an advert on it

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now. And that's a big problem when it

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comes to otherwise it's a waste of

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space. Right. Well,

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now you you're uh anti- capitalist,

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anti-militarist

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uh and as I know anti-imperialist

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political take uh on things uh that's

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going to limit the number of corporate

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billboards uh for your work which uh

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actually is as good as I have ever seen.

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I mean it's world class. You've

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obviously consciously taken this

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political path. How restrictive is it

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proving to finding a mass audience? I'm

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not sure. It's it's difficult to say

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because it wouldn't be possible to um

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make this type of work and do it in a

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corporate fashion as well. Uh but when

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it comes to uh u things like getting

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your work out there, there are ways you

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can reappropriate billboards yourself

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without having to go through official

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channels. you can get your work out

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there uh and you have and uh people

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should check it out. Uh but getting paid

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for it and therefore earning a living

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has never been more difficult for

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someone like you. That can be tricky.

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Yes. One of the many brilliant whises

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that you've come up with. Uh you showed

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at Banks's uh brief but glorious uh

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exhibition in in Somerset. Tell us about

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that. It was uh pocket money loans. I I

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originally did it in North London. is um

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and it was a payday loan shop for kids.

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So I was offering children an advance on

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their pocket money at 5,000% interest.

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And uh when I first did it I had quite a

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few people coming into the the shop just

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a mixture of outrage and disbelief just

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say please tell me this isn't asking you

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for a loan. Yes. Unfortunately.

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Yeah. I had a few people come in with

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their kids wondering if it was possible

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to get a loan but out of more out of

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desperation I think than anything else.

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and the 5,000% interested in put them

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off cuz that's normal. As a matter of

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fact, that's cheaper. It was at the time

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it was cheaper than Wonga. Yeah. Um and

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and the the thing is that uh when people

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believed it was real, the joke wasn't on

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them as so much as it was the joke is

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about the fact that this didn't seem

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that unusual that that these companies

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the only reason that these companies

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aren't offering loans to children is

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because it's illegal. If they could,

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they would. Yeah, they would. And uh you

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can be sure of that. And that a lot of

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payday loan companies um actually use

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very child-friendly advertising imagery.

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One guy has adjusted it obviously now.

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Well, they they have puppets and you

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said that they

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but they still but the there's that

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technique is is twofold. One is to uh

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kind of groom the next generation of of

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customers of children to uh and then

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also to make the product seem less

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threatening to adults as well. If it has

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a a cartoon pig on the advert, then it

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can't be that dangerous when it actually

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is. This uh political take of yours uh

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of which I and I think the great

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majority of our viewers will applaud. Uh

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this puts you into the political orbit

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uh like us uh of of Jeremy Corbin. Now

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you're performing up in Liverpool next

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weekend at the Labor Party conference.

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Tell us about that. Yes, there's a

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momentum have put on this festival

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called the world transformed and uh I've

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got some work in an exhibition there

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doing a taking part in a discussion and

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a few other things and it's um it's a

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way really of kind of bringing together

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a lot of the ideas and the uh optimism

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that Jeremy Corbyn has kind of infused

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the Labour Party with. um and kind of

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just getting a lot of people together

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and see what ideas come out of that and

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and seeing what kind of better world. So

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where where do people visit that? All

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the details are on the world

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transformed.org

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and uh my exhibition is in the black e

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in Liverpool. Um it's a a gallery there

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and u but yeah it should be good. I'm

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looking forward to And where where do

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you display your work generally? You got

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a website? Yeah, it's spelling mistakes

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costs lives.com.

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Absolutely. Uh fantastic. Uh final

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question. Uh of all those that have come

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before you, who's your favorite?

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Do you like Steve Bell's work? I'm a big

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fan of his. I am a big fan of Steve

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Bell. Um although like yes I think Chris

271
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Morris and Armando Yinuchi is some of my

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favorite uh kind of satists uh for like

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the he made the thick of it but he can't

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make a second series because he couldn't

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possibly surpass what has actually

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transpired in real life. Life imitated

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art in the problem with satire when the

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real world gets more satirical than what

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you're actually making. is tricky. Put

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us out of business.

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Darren Cullen, you you really are a

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genius and I've never meant it more when

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I say to our viewers, please check this

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man out. He is a world superstar in the

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making. Thanks for joining us on the

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sport, Nick. Coming up next, are the

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winds of change blowing in Africa again

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or is it a scramble for Africa 2.0? Stay

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tuned.

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[Music]

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Welcome back to Sputnik. Harold

292
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McMillan, the British Prime Minister in

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the 1950s, famously returned from the

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African continent, declaring that the

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winds of change were beginning to blow.

296
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The European empires were in the retreat

297
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and a generation of mainly progressive,

298
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non-aligned leaders and states emerging.

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It took half a century before Belgian,

300
00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:12,079
Portuguese, French, and British

301
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colonialism were finally almost

302
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completely dug out of their profitable

303
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redouts. One by one, progressive leaders

304
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,079
were removed by murder, death, or

305
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disgrace. Africa turned out not to be

306
00:13:22,079 --> 00:13:27,040
poor after all, but vastly rich, and

307
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rich begings began to tempt the old

308
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,160
colonial powers back to the scenes of

309
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their former crimes. Just about the last

310
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,680
of the revolutionary generation clings

311
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on in South Africa and Zimbabwe. But

312
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:42,880
clinging on is the best you can say. Are

313
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these changes for the better or for the

314
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:48,000
worse? Helping us through that is

315
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lecturer in African politics at the

316
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,680
School of Oriental and African Studies,

317
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Dr. Alistister Fraser. Dr. Fraser,

318
00:13:53,680 --> 00:14:00,079
thanks for joining us. Let's start with

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Southern Africa. uh Zambia, Zimbabwe,

320
00:14:00,079 --> 00:14:07,920
South Africa amongst the last to be free

321
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of colonialism and the aparite uh system

322
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:14,480
that it left behind. Uh things are not

323
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:17,440
going so well in southern Africa. Tell

324
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,680
us. I suppose the structural condition

325
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,920
that causes the problem uh for many of

326
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,639
these states is their position in the

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the world economy. um that they're

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00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:30,800
producers uh of mineral resources um

329
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primarily that their economies are

330
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structured uh around the old extractive

331
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:39,600
colonial um industries and those

332
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:43,519
products have very unstable prices. Um

333
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:46,000
so at moments um economic development is

334
00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:47,600
uh booming in the last 10 years. There

335
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,680
have been moments when people have been

336
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,320
very excited about the growth rates in

337
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,639
South Africa or Zambia and have thought

338
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,440
um that wealth is on the way that

339
00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:00,800
democracy is flourishing. Um and then at

340
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,880
other moments um it being a world market

341
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,440
um we see a big slump in the metals

342
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,839
prices uh and economic crisis, people

343
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,079
thrown into unemployment uh and very

344
00:15:07,839 --> 00:15:12,320
little uh in the way of diversified

345
00:15:10,079 --> 00:15:14,320
economies to kind of take up the slack.

346
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:18,480
Um when we see these economic crisis,

347
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:20,639
you also see uh political crises. So um

348
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,519
all three countries uh in some sense

349
00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:25,199
have multi-party democracies um in all

350
00:15:23,519 --> 00:15:28,240
of them and there is some degree of

351
00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:30,000
competitiveness, some degree uh of civil

352
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,560
liberties. People are able to organize

353
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:36,079
and press um to overcome the

354
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:38,720
inequalities and um economic problems

355
00:15:36,079 --> 00:15:41,199
they face. And yet in all three

356
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,800
countries there are different degrees of

357
00:15:41,199 --> 00:15:46,160
authoritarianism,

358
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:48,959
repression, uh media houses closed down,

359
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,639
opposition leaders imprisoned. So uh

360
00:15:48,959 --> 00:15:53,040
it's a mixed picture. I don't think we

361
00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:55,680
should be um constantly depressed about

362
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:58,399
the state of Africa. Africans have um

363
00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:01,120
organized themselves since independence

364
00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:02,800
uh have resisted the pressures that they

365
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,440
find themselves in both locally and

366
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:08,800
internationally uh and are constructing

367
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:10,720
a complicated contradictory political

368
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,480
and economic order just like we've got

369
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,560
ourselves just like we've got ourselves.

370
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,079
It's been very common in African studies

371
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,639
to assume that we need very special

372
00:16:16,079 --> 00:16:20,560
tools um to understand African politics

373
00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:23,360
that is somehow this is a colonial

374
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,880
construction right that that it it's uh

375
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,959
everybody is either involved in some

376
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,399
religious or ethnic belief system that

377
00:16:26,959 --> 00:16:31,279
makes it almost impossible to understand

378
00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:34,240
what's really going on. Um but in my

379
00:16:31,279 --> 00:16:36,560
view if you develop um the kinds of

380
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,639
ideas we have about politics sometimes

381
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,720
grown in the west um we can learn a

382
00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:42,399
great deal about African politics. If we

383
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,160
think about African politics, we can

384
00:16:42,399 --> 00:16:46,240
often learn quite a lot about what's

385
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,720
going on here. Um I've been looking at

386
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:51,759
at Zambia quite a lot for the um the

387
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:54,800
last 10-15 years. Uh and in the mid

388
00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:57,519
2000s, you saw a big populist moment um

389
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,360
in Zambia, a kind of reaction uh against

390
00:16:57,519 --> 00:17:01,839
the neoliberal system that had been put

391
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,600
in place there. um against new Chinese

392
00:17:01,839 --> 00:17:07,120
investments in the mining sector,

393
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,799
against um the informalization of work

394
00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:11,120
uh and a critique of a kind of

395
00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:12,640
technocratic style of politics emerged

396
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:14,160
and centered on one particular

397
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,559
individual,

398
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,919
Michael Saturn. And you can look at that

399
00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:20,480
moment and say, well, this is a very

400
00:17:17,919 --> 00:17:22,400
strange African development. And this is

401
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,480
an African form of populism that has

402
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,720
something to do with the dominance of

403
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,039
international donors with the um World

404
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,360
Bank and IMF imposing very technocratic

405
00:17:29,039 --> 00:17:33,919
systems. And that's broadly how I

406
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:36,160
analyzed it. And then suddenly you have

407
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:39,760
the Greek crisis, you have the rise of

408
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:42,160
Trump, and you go, oh, this

409
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,520
tool of analysis thinking about what it

410
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,160
takes to organize a populist

411
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,080
mobilization, it helps to explain what's

412
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,360
going on in Zambia. It's pretty good if

413
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:52,000
you're trying to understand what's going

414
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:53,679
on in the west where our tools of

415
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,919
analysis assuming that politics is

416
00:17:53,679 --> 00:17:58,240
divided between left and right don't

417
00:17:55,919 --> 00:18:00,240
really get us very far in understanding

418
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,400
lots of the political developments that

419
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,760
are going on here. So um I don't think

420
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,240
these political systems or these

421
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,000
countries are alien or difficult to

422
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,640
understand. No, I agree with that and

423
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:13,600
populism gets a bad press in in my

424
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:16,480
opinion. But as you've raised Zambia and

425
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:19,360
I raised Zimbabwe in South Africa once

426
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:22,000
we had this triumvirate of Kenneth

427
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:26,160
Kawunda the great independence leader

428
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:29,280
whom I met many times uh Robert Mugabi

429
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:32,640
in Zimbabwe and Nelson Mandela and his

430
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:35,679
immediate successors uh leading the ANC

431
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:39,039
government in South Africa. All three of

432
00:18:35,679 --> 00:18:42,400
these liberation movements are now in a

433
00:18:39,039 --> 00:18:44,720
a pretty powerless uh condition. The ANC

434
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,360
is beginning to lose elections. Nelson

435
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,200
Mandela's own home area was lost to the

436
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:52,400
opposition in the recent elections

437
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:56,720
there. Mugabi has lived far too long at

438
00:18:52,400 --> 00:19:00,400
least in power. Uh and Kawunda left in a

439
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,400
way in disgrace. Uh and Europe, his

440
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:06,080
party barely exists. Barely exists.

441
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:08,960
They've been pocked. uh gone out of uh

442
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,559
out of business more or less to what do

443
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,880
you attribute that? Is that the empire

444
00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:15,520
striking back or is it something

445
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,360
intrinsic within the model that they

446
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,799
followed? I think they're three quite

447
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,880
different cases. I think I think it's

448
00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:22,720
interesting to think about what happens

449
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,480
after a liberation movement and what are

450
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,320
the the kind of problems that are built

451
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,080
in and of course they all got their

452
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,880
independence in quite different ways

453
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:34,000
that Zambian independence was negotiated

454
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,600
broadly. Um Zimbabwe had a vicious bush

455
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,360
war uh and the South African

456
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,200
anti-apartid struggle was very bitter

457
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:41,840
but not militarized in quite the same

458
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,919
way um as the Zimbabwean struggle. So I

459
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,559
think you can understand that all three

460
00:19:43,919 --> 00:19:49,120
systems all three party systems contain

461
00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:52,720
ferocious contradictions. Um the ANC

462
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:55,360
tries to hold together um communists,

463
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:58,640
the the trade union movement, um

464
00:19:55,360 --> 00:20:02,640
multi-racial liberals, um a very wide

465
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:04,640
kind of spectrum of opinion, um and is

466
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,880
utterly dominant politically. I mean, we

467
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,520
say it's in crisis. It just won 54% of

468
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,679
the vote, twice as much as the biggest

469
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:15,039
opposition party. though it's a crisis

470
00:20:11,679 --> 00:20:17,840
relative to ANC total dominance of the

471
00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:20,960
20 years um since the end of apartheid

472
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:25,360
but it's it's a relative crisis um in

473
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:28,320
Zimbabwe Zanupf has had to turn to um

474
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:30,320
very very authoritarian means of

475
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:33,039
suppressing opposition cheating at

476
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,880
elections in order to cling on to power

477
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:38,480
um and I think that's understandable not

478
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:40,480
so much in terms of the kind of broad um

479
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,880
uh the broad range of forces as it's

480
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,919
trying to hold within itself, but partly

481
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,400
as a a a legacy of its militarized

482
00:20:45,919 --> 00:20:51,760
nature. It was always uh an

483
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:54,960
authoritarian military organization

484
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:57,120
um that tried to impose order on itself

485
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,200
to discipline the population. um

486
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:02,559
violence was always at the heart of its

487
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:06,000
mode of organization and it's difficult

488
00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:08,799
to transform that into a grassroots up

489
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,720
democratic party capable of responding

490
00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:13,360
um to the needs and desires of a

491
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:16,720
population. You referred earlier to

492
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:22,159
Chinese investment in Zambia. Uh to what

493
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:26,080
extent is China uh a genuine competitor

494
00:21:22,159 --> 00:21:30,480
for influence in Africa as against US

495
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:34,159
and Western uh more explicitly military

496
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:36,720
uh strategic influence? Yeah. Is China

497
00:21:34,159 --> 00:21:38,799
just business? Uh or do they have

498
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,600
political ambitions in Africa too? I

499
00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:45,600
think it's just business. Um China wants

500
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:48,799
copper. It wants coal. um it wants to

501
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,960
have reliable long-term access to the

502
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:53,360
resources that it thinks it needs for

503
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:56,000
its own development model uh and it goes

504
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:59,039
about getting them in a way not totally

505
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,159
dissimilar um to western actors. So I

506
00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:02,159
think the best way to think about it is

507
00:22:00,159 --> 00:22:04,159
as a competitor. Um it's also a

508
00:22:02,159 --> 00:22:06,080
relatively minor competitor at least in

509
00:22:04,159 --> 00:22:07,280
southern Africa. We have I think

510
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,240
probably explained by the kind of

511
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,480
anxiety of Western aid donors and

512
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,799
western foreign policy uh elites about

513
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,600
the the bankruptcy of their own model

514
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:21,280
that they they can't attract loyalty or

515
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:23,280
desire um to westernize in the way that

516
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,720
they used to think they could. And so

517
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,120
they're terribly anxious about any kind

518
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:30,559
of competition. Chinese investment takes

519
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:32,559
up relatively small portions of all of

520
00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:34,159
those economies and yet causes this

521
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:35,600
terrible anxiety that we're going to be

522
00:22:34,159 --> 00:22:37,360
uh overtaken. I think that tells us

523
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,799
probably more about ourselves than it

524
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:43,360
does about the Chinese. Africa not as

525
00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:44,720
poor as I said in the introduction as I

526
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,960
was brought up to believe. We used to

527
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:50,159
collect pennies for black babies. Oh, we

528
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:52,640
still do. Yes, that's uh what it was

529
00:22:50,159 --> 00:22:56,159
called in the in the in the Catholic uh

530
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:58,000
millu. Um, it was a a black figurine.

531
00:22:56,159 --> 00:23:00,240
You put the penny in its hand and it

532
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,760
swallowed it. It turns out Africa is

533
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,360
really rich. I assume what you're

534
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:07,840
getting at is that the resources flow uh

535
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:09,919
out of Africa, particularly um in terms

536
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:13,039
of significant debt repayments, in terms

537
00:23:09,919 --> 00:23:16,080
of primary resources being extracted um

538
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:19,840
in ways that don't leave um as much

539
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:22,960
development behind as is possible. Um in

540
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:27,360
that sense um lots of African economies

541
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:31,039
are the fuel that make um the rich west

542
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:34,720
rich. Um but of course there is massive

543
00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:37,280
poverty um uh across southern Africa.

544
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,760
Very high percentages of the population

545
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,000
um live in

546
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,559
conditions that we are rightly horrified

547
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,200
by. Um I don't think charity is the

548
00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:50,799
solution. Um I don't think um that kind

549
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,559
of model um is any any longer has much

550
00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:55,520
belief in itself let alone anybody else

551
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:57,200
believing in it. Um but the situation I

552
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,440
think is already complicated and

553
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:03,120
difficult. A new leadership Patrice

554
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:05,200
Lomba come back. Amen. That's what

555
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:06,960
Africa needs in my view. But we'll have

556
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,240
to continue this discussion another

557
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,400
time. It's been really fascinating.

558
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,730
You're a great guest. Thanks very much

559
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,760
Dr. Alistister Fraser.

560
00:24:12,730 --> 00:24:17,440
[Music]

561
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,520
And now it's your turn to tell us what

562
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,520
you think through the portals of social

563
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,760
media. What's rattling guy? Well,

564
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,840
speaking of satirical artist, I've only

565
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,760
got one thing to say, and that's from

566
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,480
Ricardo Picasso quoting Thomas

567
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:33,279
Jefferson. Ridicule is the only weapon

568
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,679
which can be used against unintelligible

569
00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:37,760
prepositions. Ah, very good. There's no

570
00:24:35,679 --> 00:24:40,880
doubt that making people laugh at your

571
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:43,760
enemies is way more effective than

572
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,919
making them merely angry. so much. And

573
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,240
what's happening in southern Africa is

574
00:24:45,919 --> 00:24:52,240
are these winds of change or is it

575
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:54,880
another scramble for Africa 2.0? Kenja

576
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,679
Rakota says another revolution is

577
00:24:54,880 --> 00:25:01,600
underway. What Africa needs is is a new

578
00:24:57,679 --> 00:25:03,760
generation of leaders uh like the first

579
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:07,200
like the first but obviously for the

580
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,720
21st century because imperialism knew

581
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,279
what it was doing when it murdered

582
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:14,000
Patrice Leumba when it overthrew Kwami

583
00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:17,120
and Chroma. Uh it knew what it was doing

584
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:21,600
when it ensured that one tyrant or

585
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:23,279
despot or another would rule uh Africa

586
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,440
because that was the way that they could

587
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:27,760
keep the the money rolling. That's all

588
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,000
the tweets for today unfortunately which

589
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,600
alas means that's the end of the show.

590
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,880
You can stay in touch with us on social

591
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:37,120
media through Twitter RT Sputnik or

592
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,360
Facebook Sputnik on Russia today. It's

593
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:43,480
goodbye from me Gatri and from me George

594
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:43,480
Galloway. It's been marvelous.

595
00:25:53,390 --> 00:25:56,449
[Music]