1 00:00:02,900 --> 00:00:10,429 [Music] 2 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:18,679 Okay. 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,679 I can't 4 00:00:30,270 --> 00:00:33,350 [Music] 5 00:00:36,079 --> 00:00:39,760 Welcome to Sputnik, orbiting the world 6 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,719 with me, George Galloway, 7 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,800 and me, Gatri. The new Pope Francis 8 00:00:42,719 --> 00:00:47,440 kicked off the red shoes and put on 9 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:50,079 workers boots, escued a limousine for a 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,160 blue Ford Focus, and hasn't spent a 11 00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:54,320 night in the papal palace, preferring 12 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:56,960 the Spartan boarding house he'd stayed 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:59,440 in before his election. He has emerged 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,520 as the leading critic of contemporary 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,960 capitalism in the world, even going to 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:07,680 Davos to lash the selfishness and greed 17 00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:09,840 of the world's ruling elite. The world's 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,320 first Latin American pope where almost 19 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,000 half a billion Catholics reside and the 20 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:16,000 first Jesuit is being received 21 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,240 everywhere he goes as a kind of 22 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,240 superstar and appears to have lifted the 23 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,560 reputation of the Catholic Church which 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,880 had been on the floor over corruption, 25 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,880 child abuse and 100 scandals. 26 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:30,400 The charisma he radiates contrasts 27 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:32,960 vividly with the cold Germanic purity of 28 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,960 his predecessor Pope Benedict. And as he 29 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:37,280 crosses the first anniversary of his 30 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:40,240 papacy, we're discussing the superstar 31 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:43,520 pope with Catholic thinker and activist 32 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:46,479 Dr. Declan Hayes. Declan, one man 33 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:49,200 doesn't make a team. Uh but Lionel Messi 34 00:01:46,479 --> 00:01:52,720 is a superstar even in the Barcelona 35 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:56,720 team. Would you give credit to the 36 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:58,880 theory that uh this superstar pope has 37 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,360 lifted the Catholic Church off the 38 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,320 floor? 39 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,880 No, not really. Um if if you go back to 40 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:07,920 uh another so-called superstar uh Pope 41 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:11,039 John Paul II, 42 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,599 he really fed into the American agenda. 43 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:17,040 Um and in fact Rush Limbo who is 44 00:02:13,599 --> 00:02:20,800 attacking the current Pope says that he 45 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:24,000 badly compares to Pope John Paul II and 46 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:27,200 he puts Pope John Paul in with Margaret 47 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,520 Thatcher and Ronald Rean. Now you can 48 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,080 figure that company out yourself. Pope 49 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,560 John Paul was if you like a tough pole 50 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,720 and he set out with a mission and some 51 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,959 of the mission he did achieve. The 52 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,200 current pope does not like being called 53 00:02:38,959 --> 00:02:43,760 a superstar. And in fact, from a 54 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:47,840 Catholic viewpoint and if you like, you 55 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:49,920 come and I come from the same robust 56 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,640 general Catholic background, shall we 57 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:56,560 say. And I would like to see more of 58 00:02:52,640 --> 00:03:00,640 that robustness and more of the best 59 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:03,440 elements of the robust community, not 60 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:06,239 individual, that the two of us uh come 61 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,959 from. And in fact, if we just look at 62 00:03:06,239 --> 00:03:11,200 your own history a long time ago, uh 63 00:03:08,959 --> 00:03:13,760 what robustness was there? Um brother 64 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,360 Wilfred, a superstar by anybody's 65 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:19,040 measurement, he went to Glasgow and he 66 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:23,040 started a team which still gives a lot 67 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:26,000 of respect to a lot of people around the 68 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:28,879 world. And if you like that superstar 69 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:33,040 was the beginning of the diversity that 70 00:03:28,879 --> 00:03:35,840 we have in Britain at the moment. And 71 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:39,120 brother Wilfred, 72 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:41,680 Pope, the current pope, they can only 73 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,000 lead. It's really other people have to 74 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,280 follow. 75 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,560 Oh, no. I agree. I mean, the proof of 76 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:49,760 the pudding's in the eating. But just 77 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:53,440 judge where we were a year ago. Benedict 78 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:57,200 was if not unpopular then really rather 79 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:59,680 mediocre. Uh the church was enveloped in 80 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:02,480 scandals. Uh some of which of course I 81 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,560 agree it's still enveloped in. Uh its 82 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:08,239 reputation couldn't really have fallen 83 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:10,959 very much uh lower. Now triple the 84 00:04:08,239 --> 00:04:13,280 numbers are turning out for papal events 85 00:04:10,959 --> 00:04:15,840 with Francis. And he does seem to have a 86 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,880 certain something just like Messi. No, 87 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,400 Messi certainly has a certain something. 88 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,880 It's a pity his grandmother doesn't come 89 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:25,280 from Ireland. Now, if you go back a 90 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,440 year, yes, that stuff about the uh child 91 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:29,600 sex abuse was going on and is still 92 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:33,280 going on. And in fact, one of the super 93 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:35,680 cardinals he's bringing to um supposedly 94 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:38,400 sort out the Vatican. uh George Pel who 95 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:40,479 I knew from Australia. 96 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:44,240 Australians say that they're only taking 97 00:04:40,479 --> 00:04:47,600 him out of Australia because of the 98 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:50,080 whole child sex abuse stuff there that's 99 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,880 brewing up now. George Pel is supposed 100 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:56,160 to sort out the economics of the Vatican 101 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:58,800 which is a mess as bad as their media. 102 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,520 And I don't think a superstar I don't 103 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,600 think Messi or Balotelli or the Pope or 104 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,360 anybody else can do this. It takes a 105 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,960 very concerted effort and I think one 106 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,400 very good thing he has done in that 107 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:13,919 respect is he's bringing in outside 108 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:16,639 people the likes of McKenzie to look at 109 00:05:13,919 --> 00:05:20,400 this and to try to sort out some of the 110 00:05:16,639 --> 00:05:23,120 in his own words the leprosy of the 111 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,960 Vatican. He definitely doesn't live as a 112 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,280 superstar. As we all know, he lives a 113 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,680 very sober lifestyle. But everywhere he 114 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:32,880 goes, he's being received as such. You 115 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,720 know, the followers um are 116 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,039 overwhelmingly enthusiastic about him 117 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:40,000 because they can relate to him as he 118 00:05:37,039 --> 00:05:41,440 does relate to them, the common people, 119 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,039 the poor in specific. 120 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,520 Okay. Yeah. But but the question is what 121 00:05:43,039 --> 00:05:48,320 does enthusiasm bring to the party, 122 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:50,000 right? You actually need organization. 123 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,000 Now, if if we look at the Middle East, 124 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,840 the Palestinian or the Syrian thing or 125 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,880 anywhere else, there's a lot of great 126 00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:59,919 people there on the ground doing a lot 127 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:02,960 of great work, but they actually need 128 00:05:59,919 --> 00:06:05,440 organized support behind him. Now, I was 129 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,880 in the Vat I I I was in Rome there about 130 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,280 two weeks ago. I called into the 131 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,199 Palestinian embassy and uh some other 132 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:13,759 places. I hadn't time to go to the 133 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:15,680 Vatican, and there's priests and nuns 134 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:18,960 all over the place in Rome. And the 135 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,720 question is, and uh Pope Francis is 136 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,720 asking it himself, what what are all you 137 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,280 guys doing here in Rome? Why aren't you 138 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,039 out, you know, working in the fields 139 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,800 kind of, you know, in Africa, in 140 00:06:27,039 --> 00:06:30,960 England, everywhere else? 141 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:36,000 Bethlehem. Uh something very important 142 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:39,039 to uh you as well as me and Guyatri. Uh 143 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,240 in in in Bethlehem, Mary would not she 144 00:06:39,039 --> 00:06:44,560 would have had to give birth to Jesus at 145 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,199 a checkpoint. uh the Palestinian 146 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,360 Christians and uh Syrian Christians, 147 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:51,360 which is a slightly separate matter, but 148 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,880 nonetheless crucial. Pope should be 149 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,560 doing a bit more on that. No, 150 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,199 the Pope is actually going to Israel 151 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,720 Palestine uh in May. There's several 152 00:06:57,199 --> 00:07:01,199 things he could do in Bethlehem. One is 153 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,039 to go up to that checkpoint at 3:00 in 154 00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:05,919 the morning to see the Muslims and the 155 00:07:03,039 --> 00:07:08,479 Christians uh going in for work. And I'm 156 00:07:05,919 --> 00:07:10,639 not exaggerating here. I've been there 157 00:07:08,479 --> 00:07:13,520 at 3:00 in the morning. And the and the 158 00:07:10,639 --> 00:07:16,240 nearest thing I can think of that is the 159 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,680 French slave laborers of World War II. 160 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,759 That's what they look like. You have to 161 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,240 beware of Greeks bearing gifts and you 162 00:07:19,759 --> 00:07:24,080 also have to be aware of Irish people h 163 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,560 bearing grips. I have a little present 164 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,280 for you here, dietry. It's it's olive 165 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:31,840 oil soap made by Palestinians. I bought 166 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,000 this in Thai Bay from French nuns who 167 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,240 are doing a lot of good work. Here is 168 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:39,680 packaging from a different Christian 169 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:41,520 group in in the Holy Land. And these 170 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,599 people need if he wants to do something 171 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:46,479 symbolic, what he could do is go in and 172 00:07:43,599 --> 00:07:49,520 buy 20 million buy 20 million bars of 173 00:07:46,479 --> 00:07:51,840 soap. If the if if the if the church has 174 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:54,560 to have a mission, right? It is 175 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:57,199 certainly uh the mission should be not 176 00:07:54,560 --> 00:08:00,160 killing the Christians and Muslims of 177 00:07:57,199 --> 00:08:02,479 the Middle East as as a lot of these uh 178 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,879 right-wing people want to do. The 179 00:08:02,479 --> 00:08:06,560 mission has to be something else. 180 00:08:04,879 --> 00:08:08,400 Well, the biggest killer is capitalism, 181 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,720 of course. That's the biggest killer the 182 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,720 world has ever known. It's killing poor 183 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,000 people in every continent 184 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,840 uh all the time. 185 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,280 Yeah, but that's an abstraction, right? 186 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:21,759 The bullets read US of A, right? And and 187 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:25,120 the the Pope and the Catholic Church has 188 00:08:21,759 --> 00:08:27,599 to actively oppose this. Not not perhaps 189 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:30,240 uh if you like totally physically, but a 190 00:08:27,599 --> 00:08:32,560 lot of symbolic stuff can be done and 191 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,080 the pope is in an excellent position to 192 00:08:32,560 --> 00:08:37,440 do that. But there are a lot of people 193 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:39,360 in the Vatican and everywhere else who 194 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,760 don't who want him essentially singing 195 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:45,120 from the same more or less the same hym 196 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:47,040 sheet as Rush Limbo and everybody else 197 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:50,800 and that's his real challenge and he has 198 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:52,720 started well there by trying to sideline 199 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:58,480 a lot of those people but he does have 200 00:08:52,720 --> 00:09:01,760 his work uh cut out um I I before Geneva 201 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,519 2 for example uh he he he'd invited or 202 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,880 somebody had invited I think it was the 203 00:09:03,519 --> 00:09:08,720 French had invited Tony Blair to to 204 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,800 discuss solving. 205 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:14,399 I've got that here. One of the great 206 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:17,440 paradoxes of our age that a a man who 207 00:09:14,399 --> 00:09:22,320 the last pope asked or the previous but 208 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:23,839 one begged him not to invade Iraq and 209 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,800 cause 210 00:09:23,839 --> 00:09:28,800 essentially cause ineluctibly cause the 211 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,600 slaughter of thousands of Iraqi 212 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:35,200 Christians as a result of the American 213 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:37,279 and British invasion. And uh Tony Blair 214 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,399 laughed in his face and walked out and 215 00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,920 did it. M 216 00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:46,320 how on earth is it possible that Tony 217 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:47,440 Blair is such a welcome guest in the 218 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,080 Roman Catholic Church? 219 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:52,720 Well, I suppose H Pinoce has a soul 220 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,240 would be the argument and so has Tony 221 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:59,120 Blair and probably thank God it's not 222 00:09:54,240 --> 00:10:02,959 your soul or uh or my soul but you know 223 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:05,600 the power of prayer does work and um h 224 00:10:02,959 --> 00:10:09,279 we all prayed h fervently and luckily 225 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:11,360 Mr. Chiron died. So, um, Tony Blair went 226 00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:13,200 to Chiron's funeral instead of showing 227 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,920 up at at the Vatican. 228 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,720 Place for him, 229 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:19,360 which much better. But could you imagine 230 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:22,880 how the message that would have sent out 231 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:25,120 to to um the to the Christians and the 232 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:28,959 Muslims of of the Middle East. And when 233 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:30,640 the Pope goes to Palestine, Israel, um, 234 00:10:28,959 --> 00:10:32,560 again, people want them, the Israeli 235 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,800 government want them to sing a certain 236 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:37,680 message. and they do have a lot of 237 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,760 power. But he has to try to sing the 238 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:42,000 message that the Christians and the 239 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:45,200 other people of goodwill in the Middle 240 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:49,200 East and throughout the world want him 241 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:52,079 to sing. He has to build up a robust 242 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:54,959 Catholicism, a Catholicism or a thing 243 00:10:52,079 --> 00:10:56,240 that's not afraid to speak its 244 00:10:54,959 --> 00:10:58,399 viewpoint. Now, now I know it's a kind 245 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:02,000 of a family affair today with the Hayes 246 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:04,959 family, right? But but um you know Bob 247 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,959 Crowe was not afraid to say what he 248 00:11:04,959 --> 00:11:10,240 said, right? Bob Crow would get up on 249 00:11:06,959 --> 00:11:13,680 his pulpit and he expelled people of the 250 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:15,920 uh BMP from it. Right? Uh he actually 251 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:20,240 expelled leading members of the Labor 252 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:22,240 Party. Okay. Now he walked the walk. So 253 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,360 it's it's easy enough to talk the talk, 254 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,120 but walking the walk is important as 255 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,839 Certainly not walking them in the last 256 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,920 pope's red shoes, but in a worker's 257 00:11:29,839 --> 00:11:34,079 boots. Well, unfortunately, we're out of 258 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,839 time. It's been a pleasure disagreeing 259 00:11:34,079 --> 00:11:38,240 with you. Thanks very much, Declan 260 00:11:35,839 --> 00:11:40,480 Hayes. Coming up after the break, trade 261 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:43,279 union bells were muffled this week upon 262 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:45,279 the death of just 52 of one of Britain's 263 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:47,519 great working-class leaders. We'll be 264 00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:49,760 talking about Bob Crowe with his friend 265 00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:51,920 and another great union man, leader of 266 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,920 Britain's communication workers, Billy 267 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,200 Hayes. 268 00:11:53,920 --> 00:12:03,460 A 269 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:03,460 [Music] 270 00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:11,040 if you're killing women and children 271 00:12:08,399 --> 00:12:13,360 continuously knowingly for so many 272 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,720 years, it is worth trying. 273 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,560 Martin Luther King said, "I have a 274 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,330 dream. Obama is today telling me I have 275 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:22,480 a drone." 276 00:12:19,330 --> 00:12:24,399 [Applause] 277 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,360 The drones have not caused a huge number 278 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:29,600 of civilian casualties. Uh that for the 279 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:33,279 most part they have been very precise 280 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:36,160 precision strikes against al-Qaeda. And 281 00:12:33,279 --> 00:12:39,440 this small body on the ground is a 282 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,850 little girl and just next to her is a 283 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:45,139 little boy of eight. 284 00:12:41,850 --> 00:12:45,139 [Music] 285 00:12:45,839 --> 00:12:49,839 We do some operations Afghanistan. Yes. 286 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,760 And also which other countries? 287 00:12:49,839 --> 00:12:53,600 Uh Afghanistan's the only one that I can 288 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,000 confirm that we are operating in 289 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,279 in Yemen. 290 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,000 Afghanistan's the only other country 291 00:12:57,279 --> 00:12:59,600 that I can confirm 292 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,279 and Pakistan. 293 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,279 Afghanistan's the only country I can 294 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:04,279 confirm. 295 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,600 Heat. Heat. 296 00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:24,369 [Music] 297 00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:40,940 [Music] 298 00:13:45,650 --> 00:13:53,820 [Music] 299 00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:00,959 I don't understand how the world can let 300 00:13:59,279 --> 00:14:05,000 NATO 301 00:14:00,959 --> 00:14:05,000 not say sorry for this. 302 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,750 [Music] 303 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,750 [Applause] 304 00:14:14,590 --> 00:14:17,659 [Music] 305 00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:26,959 [Music] 306 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,880 Bob Crow, the leader of Britain's 307 00:14:26,959 --> 00:14:31,360 railway workers, merchant seaman, and 308 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,519 other transport staffs, was Britain's 309 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:36,000 most successful union leader. His 310 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:37,040 members loved him, and their bosses 311 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,440 loathed him. 312 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,360 And the media hated them even more. If 313 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,279 Bob Crow had woken up on Tuesday 314 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,600 morning, he would have read yet another 315 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:47,680 attack in the right-wing press. This 316 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,920 week on his salary, the week before on 317 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:52,160 his holidays, and before that, that he 318 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:54,160 had stayed in the house he had stayed in 319 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,959 since he was an ordinary railway man 320 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,760 himself. 321 00:14:54,959 --> 00:14:59,680 Media hostility was unremitting, proving 322 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,160 he constituted a clear and present 323 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,160 danger to the way things are and a 324 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,199 powerful advocate of how things could 325 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,959 be. To discuss Bob Crow's life and what 326 00:15:07,199 --> 00:15:12,000 the meaning of the well of affection 327 00:15:08,959 --> 00:15:14,160 brimming over since his death means is 328 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,079 another powerful union leader with many 329 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,240 of the same attributes. He's Billy 330 00:15:16,079 --> 00:15:21,120 Hayes, leader of the Union of 331 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:24,000 Communication Workers. Billy, thanks for 332 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,639 coming on board the Sputnik. The meaning 333 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:29,279 of uh Bob Crow's death, we'll come to in 334 00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:32,560 a minute, but his life was pretty 335 00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:34,399 spectacular. Short and spectacular. And 336 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,279 the impact that he made as a union 337 00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:38,639 leader, well, it's hard to compare him 338 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:40,320 with any other. 339 00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:42,880 No, he was probably Britain's most 340 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:45,519 famous trade union leader. And he was he 341 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:48,000 was charismatic. He was uh, you know, 342 00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:49,839 everybody knew Bob was, but he was also 343 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,199 a great guy. He was also a good human 344 00:15:49,839 --> 00:15:54,079 being. you know, he had all the 345 00:15:51,199 --> 00:15:56,880 attributes of uh what it is to be a 346 00:15:54,079 --> 00:15:59,279 leader. He was friendly. He was kind. I 347 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,680 never hear him once rubbish anyone 348 00:15:59,279 --> 00:16:04,639 individually and he but he fought for 349 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,720 the people that you know the he 350 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:08,480 represented and he fought very well and 351 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,560 he was he was seen to be very effective 352 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,440 as a trade union leader. union 353 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,759 membership in his union grew by 30% in 354 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,360 the 12 years he was the leader 355 00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:19,600 and the wages I don't know what the 356 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,440 percentage increase was but everyone 357 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:25,120 famously talks about the London 358 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,880 underground driver on more than £50,000 359 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,440 a year heaven forbid that any blue 360 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,880 collar worker should earn more than 361 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:35,040 50,000 a year of course he had some 362 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,120 good luck in the sense that he was 363 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,639 representing a section of workers with a 364 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:43,839 monopoly on their uh services. But do 365 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:46,800 you think that his style of negotiating, 366 00:16:43,839 --> 00:16:49,360 his style of confrontation, if you like, 367 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,079 has something to offer other union 368 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,759 leaders? 369 00:16:50,079 --> 00:16:54,240 Well, you know, Thatcher said weakness 370 00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:56,399 invites aggression. Well, Bob took it as 371 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:59,920 a word in some ways. You know, he he 372 00:16:56,399 --> 00:17:01,759 knew that he he was to to coward and 373 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:04,160 back off that, you know, you would be 374 00:17:01,759 --> 00:17:05,439 treated badly. And, you know, yes, he 375 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,679 had some luck in terms of London 376 00:17:05,439 --> 00:17:09,679 Underground. Let's not forget as you say 377 00:17:07,679 --> 00:17:12,000 he represented seafare workers that's a 378 00:17:09,679 --> 00:17:13,919 much diff more difficult but even low 379 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,000 paid cleaners he he represented them 380 00:17:13,919 --> 00:17:18,799 well he was prepared to fight and 381 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,480 because he the the the establishment if 382 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:22,880 you like knew he's prepared to fight 383 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:25,919 they dealt with him you know they I I he 384 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:28,079 was unapologetic for improving the 385 00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:29,760 living standards and the conditions of 386 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:30,799 of his people and you know he's to be 387 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,720 applauded for that 388 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:37,760 he died on the eve literally of the uh 389 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,360 anniversary 30th anniversary of the 390 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,559 minor strike. 391 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:44,400 The defeat of the miners marked a very 392 00:17:42,559 --> 00:17:47,360 important turning point, as we both 393 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,880 know, turning point down a road that uh 394 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,840 has not been good. 395 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,600 Uh do you think the death of Bob Crow 396 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,679 will be a turning point, too? Will there 397 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,799 be any other Bob Crows? 398 00:17:55,679 --> 00:17:58,240 I think there's going to be other 399 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:00,480 people. You know, Bob had a certain 400 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,799 style uh that was a Bob Crow style and 401 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,120 it was a it was a one-off. But the idea 402 00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:06,559 that you represent people, you know, 403 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,200 fiercely represented the government 404 00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:10,640 itself shows by its own figures. If 405 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,280 you're in a trade union, your pay is 406 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,520 likely to be on average about 18% what 407 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:18,559 is in an organized sector. And the main 408 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:21,120 reason why people uh you know maybe not 409 00:18:18,559 --> 00:18:23,039 join unions is fear. But Bob showed you 410 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:25,039 join a strong trade union and you take 411 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:26,720 action and you will improve the lot of 412 00:18:25,039 --> 00:18:28,480 working people. He left a lasting 413 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,480 legacy. That was the paying conditions 414 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:33,760 of the people he represented. 415 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:36,400 Of course, his union uh was expelled 416 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,720 from the Labor Party same more or less 417 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,320 same time as me and for similar uh 418 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,320 reasons even though it was the railway 419 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:45,520 workers union that actually proposed the 420 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:47,919 motion which established the Labor Party 421 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:50,480 uh in the first place. 422 00:18:47,919 --> 00:18:51,679 Uh Bob supported with the political 423 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,400 funds of the union. 424 00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:55,360 Yeah. 425 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:59,039 uh freed from constraint once the labor 426 00:18:55,360 --> 00:19:01,120 had expelled them. Some 427 00:18:59,039 --> 00:19:04,640 political formations that haven't done 428 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:06,400 well uh and uh and some that uh were 429 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,600 positively wrong. I mean I think for 430 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:12,160 example his 431 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:13,039 his no to EU stand was the wrong uh 432 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,640 stand 433 00:19:13,039 --> 00:19:20,320 but at least in a way he was able to 434 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:22,480 creatively decide on behalf of the union 435 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,559 uh where the funds of the union should 436 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,320 go. Are unions going to be involved in 437 00:19:24,559 --> 00:19:29,360 politics in their own right more and 438 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,120 more in the way that Bob pioneered? 439 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:33,360 I'm not so sure to be honest with you. I 440 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:35,280 mean, as you say, George, the the the 441 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,280 formations of these, the reason why they 442 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,280 were expelled, which was affiliating, as 443 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,200 I understand it, to the Scottish 444 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,080 Socialist Party, I mean, that fell apart 445 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,360 for for lots of different reasons. Uh, I 446 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,559 think the problem is, and you know, 447 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:48,000 there's a lack of political 448 00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:50,799 representation in this country and at 449 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,600 the moment, the only party that even now 450 00:19:50,799 --> 00:19:55,280 with all the changes is the Labor Party. 451 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,120 now that you know and that's in this 452 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,080 country in this particular point in 453 00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,360 history you know um I don't think 454 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,120 there's much alternative for trade 455 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:05,919 unions other than to get this government 456 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:09,520 out and the only party that's capable of 457 00:20:05,919 --> 00:20:12,000 doing that in the next 420 days is the 458 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:15,039 Labour party but I think the problem for 459 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,280 the for the Labor party and for the 460 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:19,679 political class in this country Bob you 461 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,440 know was elected by in ordinary people 462 00:20:19,679 --> 00:20:23,280 and there's an underrepresentation of 463 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,919 ordinary people in this 464 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:29,440 Even in the Labour party when you know 465 00:20:25,919 --> 00:20:32,559 we had uh two wings of the party anus 466 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:34,159 Bevon who give us the atomic bomb and 467 00:20:32,559 --> 00:20:36,640 Narin Beavenon who give us the national 468 00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:38,960 health service they were from you know 469 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:41,440 workingass stock as it were now you 470 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:44,240 don't have to be a horny hand of soil 471 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:46,240 just to be an MP but you we do need to 472 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,000 have a bit more of a locus in the lives 473 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,600 of ordinary people and I do think 474 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,919 there's a bit of a political crisis in 475 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,840 that respect in terms of workingclass 476 00:20:51,919 --> 00:20:56,400 represent resentation. I don't think the 477 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,080 avenue that Bob chose was the right one. 478 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,200 And similarly with the EU, I didn't 479 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,720 agree with him on the EU, but Bob's, you 480 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,880 know, mission was to represent people. 481 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,480 The first thing we must do as trade 482 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,720 unions is pull ourselves up and 483 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,159 represent the people who who look to us 484 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,000 for to looking after them in the 485 00:21:10,159 --> 00:21:14,720 workplace. The problem that we've got in 486 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,960 society at the moment is that, you know, 487 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,679 the political class don't just don't 488 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,520 seem to get it. Now, we know that the 489 00:21:19,679 --> 00:21:25,440 right-wing media attacked him 490 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:27,520 enormously, almost on a daily rate. Now, 491 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,679 Bob Crow appears like a very strong man, 492 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,679 but do you think it affected him in any 493 00:21:29,679 --> 00:21:34,080 way negatively or was he able to brush 494 00:21:31,679 --> 00:21:35,600 it away and carry on? 495 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,240 You know, Bob was like every one of us, 496 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,480 you know, uh I'm sure there were times 497 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,799 when he, you know, when they attacked 498 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,720 his family or attacked his home, you 499 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:46,320 know, or followed them around. I mean, 500 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,640 I've had similar but not on the same 501 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,960 scale as Bob because of Bob's notoriety 502 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,679 in some ways, but I'm sure it affected 503 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:57,200 them. You know, Narin Beavenon once said 504 00:21:53,679 --> 00:22:00,240 the to the Tories are hard are soft on 505 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:02,559 the outside and hard inside. And 506 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,280 workingclass people are hard on the 507 00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:07,120 outside and soft inside. 508 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:10,159 And that was true of Bob. you know, for 509 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:12,880 all his bluster and all his tenacity and 510 00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:14,799 determination. He was quite a gentle and 511 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,280 and and a very intelligent man. 512 00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:20,480 Uh Billy, I mean, the point you've 513 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:22,960 identified is undoubtedly true that only 514 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,080 labor can get the Tories out. That I 515 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,280 agree with. 516 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:29,760 I hope Labor wins. 517 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:33,760 But what kind of labor is a big question 518 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:35,919 now? What the unions going to do to 519 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,720 continue to back labor? Yes. continue to 520 00:22:35,919 --> 00:22:40,480 fund labor. Yes. But what can the unions 521 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,360 do to try and make labor more 522 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,600 representative of the working class in 523 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:47,039 the way that Bob Crow represented the 524 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,440 working class? 525 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:50,559 That's a big question. Um, and I don't 526 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,720 think there's a, you know, there's a 527 00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:54,480 there's a single answer. I think the 528 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,280 first thing that we have to do as trade 529 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,360 unions is represent the people were paid 530 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,559 to look after. That's the first point. 531 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:04,960 And install a confidence that was there. 532 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:07,039 um you know when you know when you 533 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,679 became politically active and I think we 534 00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:12,320 can't underestimate on this anniversary 535 00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:15,840 of the minor strike how much of an 536 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:17,679 impact that had that has had on workers 537 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,080 self-confidence and working class 538 00:23:17,679 --> 00:23:22,559 self-confidence and at the moment the 539 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:25,840 only show in town really is is the Tory 540 00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:28,480 government I have two kind of scenarios 541 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:31,919 how are you going to feel if the Tories 542 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:34,320 get a a majority at the next election 543 00:23:31,919 --> 00:23:36,799 Um and and if Labour win, you know, 544 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,880 we'll be we'll be some trepidation about 545 00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:41,600 that, but we know there's a bit of space 546 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,799 in which to operate. You know, Tar Ali 547 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,640 famously said there's only 6% difference 548 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:49,600 sometimes between a Labor and a Torian, 549 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:52,000 but we operate in that 6%. I think there 550 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,400 is an issue about under representation 551 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:58,799 and we're trying to do what we can as a 552 00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:01,679 trade union you know um in terms of um 553 00:23:58,799 --> 00:24:04,400 ensuring representation but you know 554 00:24:01,679 --> 00:24:07,120 I've got the the polit the general 555 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,559 election results going back to 1892 556 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:12,480 and apart from the 1930s and apart from 557 00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:15,360 individual bi-elections and you know 558 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,679 yours is a case in point George there's 559 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:20,880 no evidence that parties to the left of 560 00:24:17,679 --> 00:24:23,360 the Labour party so-called left at times 561 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,919 have done well. I mean at the Eastley 562 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:28,559 bi-election the trade union socialist 563 00:24:25,919 --> 00:24:30,559 coalition got less votes than Elvis 564 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:33,840 loves pets party you know and it's only 565 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:35,440 when you got a particular uh by I think 566 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,600 what we need what we need to address 567 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,400 also is a change in composition of 568 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:43,120 Britain you know the it's much more 569 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:46,159 multicultural so I think it's slow 570 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:48,400 patient work and I'd never say now and 571 00:24:46,159 --> 00:24:49,840 forever for all time we've seen places 572 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,840 like Germany 573 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,600 where the delinka you Although it 574 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,919 dropped its vote at the last election. 575 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,279 Yeah. 576 00:24:53,919 --> 00:24:56,960 Still got 70 plus 577 00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:59,440 still got exact. So you know there 578 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:02,400 particular reason but it oeriza in 579 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:05,679 Greece at the moment on current polls 580 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:08,000 it's getting a better vote than the uh 581 00:25:05,679 --> 00:25:10,080 the Greek social democratic party. 582 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,799 So it's never for always for all time 583 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:16,480 but in these particular circumstances I 584 00:25:12,799 --> 00:25:18,159 would see the main priority is um making 585 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,080 sure that the Tories are not returned at 586 00:25:18,159 --> 00:25:22,159 the next election. Well, Bob Crow would 587 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,640 certainly agree with us on that last 588 00:25:22,159 --> 00:25:27,360 point if not on uh all of the others. 589 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,679 Billy Hayes, trade union leader, real 590 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:34,360 leader of the working people, 591 00:25:29,679 --> 00:25:34,360 remembering the late Bob Crow. 592 00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:38,799 Now it's your turn to tell us what you 593 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,480 think in the social media review 594 00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:42,159 roundup. What's rattling guy? 595 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,520 I asked the people what they thought 596 00:25:42,159 --> 00:25:48,000 about superstar Pope Francis. Dynamit 597 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,240 Media says, "Not a superstar, but a 598 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,480 friend of the poor, humble pastor and an 599 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:56,240 enemy of the wararmongers. Read his 600 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:59,919 anti- capitalist Evangali Gaudium." To 601 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:02,080 which uh Farah Ali uh argues further 602 00:25:59,919 --> 00:26:03,919 that he's definitely a step in the right 603 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,320 direction, especially in view of his 604 00:26:03,919 --> 00:26:08,320 predecessor, but he's not a superstar 605 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,400 for religious leaders. Such conduct 606 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,080 should be the norm, not the exception. 607 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,880 something very wrong with the system of 608 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,720 appointment that is so inconsistent. 609 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:20,000 Well, I mean it all sounds like a 610 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:22,720 superstar to me. Uh but the numbers uh I 611 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,240 mean the old song 40,000 Frenchmen can't 612 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,279 be wrong. 613 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:30,320 Audiences have tripled in 12 months. 614 00:26:27,279 --> 00:26:32,080 When Benedict went anywhere they really 615 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,880 had to work hard even to get the 616 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:37,679 faithful on parade. The others were not 617 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:40,480 interested. with this pope. The faithful 618 00:26:37,679 --> 00:26:42,240 are flooding out and non-atholics are 619 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,080 listening for the first time in a long 620 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,799 time to what a pope has to say. 621 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,799 I think we are bigger fans of the Pope 622 00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:49,279 Francis than Declan and all our 623 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:52,000 followers. 624 00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:54,320 That's definitely uh appear definitely 625 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,600 appears to be uh the case 626 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,919 about Bob Crow, the late Bob Crowe. Andy 627 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,919 Gilchrist says it's a major setback. He 628 00:26:59,919 --> 00:27:04,480 would tell us to pick up the ball and 629 00:27:01,919 --> 00:27:07,360 run again. RMT will never replace him, 630 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,240 but one we will. And David Thomas says, 631 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:12,720 "We value rare folk like him, widely 632 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,600 recognized for integrity and commitment 633 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,760 to his socialist purpose." Decent. 634 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,000 Decent indeed. Uh, one of the most 635 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,880 significant things about the death of 636 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,919 Bob Crowe is how much sadness there has 637 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:28,320 been in the country about it. If you'd 638 00:27:25,919 --> 00:27:30,480 believed the newspapers, Bob Crow was 639 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,039 the most hated man in Britain. 640 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,400 Yeah. And yet, 641 00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:34,559 except he wasn't. Yeah, 642 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:38,159 he wasn't because people knew that in 643 00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:40,720 him they saw an authentic working-class 644 00:27:38,159 --> 00:27:42,240 leader who may have views which they 645 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,760 didn't agree with, may have taken 646 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,559 actions which they didn't agree with, 647 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:49,600 but they never doubted the sincerity of 648 00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:52,320 his motives. He had no master 649 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,640 other than the working people who 650 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,679 elected him. And my goodness, did he 651 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,600 represent them well. 652 00:27:55,679 --> 00:27:59,679 And that's all for this week, 653 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,200 which sadly means that's the end of the 654 00:27:59,679 --> 00:28:03,279 show. You know, you can reach us on 655 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,960 Twitter at RT_Sputnik 656 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:07,200 and on Facebook you can like us on 657 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,080 Sputnik on Russia Today. That's it for 658 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,240 me, Goyatri. 659 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:13,240 And from me, George Galloway, it's been 660 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,240 marvelous. 661 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:32,779 [Music]