1 00:00:33,330 --> 00:00:38,430 welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world 2 00:00:35,890 --> 00:00:40,900 with me George Galloway and me Cathy 3 00:00:38,430 --> 00:00:43,059 virtually alone in the British media The 4 00:00:40,900 --> 00:00:45,400 Guardian newspaper has broken story 5 00:00:43,059 --> 00:00:48,280 after story with the revelations of 6 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,629 Edward Snowden the NSA whistleblower 7 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,690 would have been blowing his whistle to 8 00:00:49,629 --> 00:00:54,580 an empty room if not for them our guest 9 00:00:52,690 --> 00:00:57,280 on Sputnik this week played a key role 10 00:00:54,580 --> 00:00:59,649 in bringing Snowden in from the cold and 11 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,899 to the attention of anyone who was 12 00:00:59,649 --> 00:01:04,059 actually paying attention to what our 13 00:01:01,899 --> 00:01:05,860 governments are doing in our name and 14 00:01:04,059 --> 00:01:07,810 often against us 15 00:01:05,860 --> 00:01:09,850 he was the guardians Washington 16 00:01:07,810 --> 00:01:12,790 correspondent at the time and remains 17 00:01:09,850 --> 00:01:15,520 one of its most senior reporters you and 18 00:01:12,790 --> 00:01:17,020 McCaskill you and welcome to the Sputnik 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,320 you and I have known each other for a 20 00:01:17,020 --> 00:01:22,450 very long time but I was mildly 21 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:25,060 surprised when I read Luke Harding's 22 00:01:22,450 --> 00:01:27,970 book the Snowden files to discover the 23 00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:31,479 key role that you had played in all of 24 00:01:27,970 --> 00:01:34,330 this the editor quite correctly thought 25 00:01:31,479 --> 00:01:36,280 that a senior Scots reporter like you 26 00:01:34,330 --> 00:01:38,470 was definitely the best person to go to 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,869 Hong Kong and check out the bona fides 28 00:01:38,470 --> 00:01:43,960 of Edward Snowden tell us if you would 29 00:01:40,869 --> 00:01:46,210 about that and I was in the Guardians 30 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:47,830 New York office and afraid the afternoon 31 00:01:46,210 --> 00:01:49,979 I was thinking about the weekend of 32 00:01:47,830 --> 00:01:53,439 thinking that we're going to lunch and 33 00:01:49,979 --> 00:01:55,509 I've one of the Guardian editors Janine 34 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:58,060 Gibson called me over and says I want 35 00:01:55,509 --> 00:02:01,030 you to go to Hong Kong tomorrow and like 36 00:01:58,060 --> 00:02:04,720 any good reporter I said sure I don't 37 00:02:01,030 --> 00:02:06,640 know what it was about and and then she 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,070 briefed me and said look a Glenn 39 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:12,820 Greenwald Guardian columnist Laura 40 00:02:09,070 --> 00:02:14,350 Petraeus a documentary filmmaker have 41 00:02:12,820 --> 00:02:18,040 been in touch with someone claiming to 42 00:02:14,350 --> 00:02:21,940 be a spy and he's prepared to hand over 43 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:23,620 a secret top secret documents but we'd 44 00:02:21,940 --> 00:02:26,560 like you to go with them and check out 45 00:02:23,620 --> 00:02:28,570 whether this is for real or a fruitcake 46 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,650 you know at the time I thought was just 47 00:02:28,570 --> 00:02:30,489 going for a couple of days I thought 48 00:02:29,650 --> 00:02:32,170 this can't be real 49 00:02:30,489 --> 00:02:36,480 you know when I turn up they're 50 00:02:32,170 --> 00:02:39,459 discovered it's um you know 56 year old 51 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:41,709 intelligence veteran with disgruntled 52 00:02:39,459 --> 00:02:42,940 over the way he's been treated and you 53 00:02:41,709 --> 00:02:45,160 know there won't be much to it not be 54 00:02:42,940 --> 00:02:45,820 back in America you know and Monday of 55 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,820 two 56 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:51,360 we arrived in Hong Kong and discover you 57 00:02:48,820 --> 00:02:54,970 know really in the middle of a historic 58 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:57,490 story which is running and running so 59 00:02:54,970 --> 00:03:01,270 your first surprise I think was his age 60 00:02:57,490 --> 00:03:03,640 it was a again when we went there I 61 00:03:01,270 --> 00:03:07,690 don't up a picture of him as I saw a 62 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:10,390 grizzly 50 60 year old veteran and then 63 00:03:07,690 --> 00:03:12,730 it's not that the time was 29 we saw 64 00:03:10,390 --> 00:03:16,020 thinner skin he actually looks about 22 65 00:03:12,730 --> 00:03:19,690 or 23 and he starts telling us he 66 00:03:16,020 --> 00:03:22,090 trained with the US Special Forces he 67 00:03:19,690 --> 00:03:26,860 worked for the CIA in Geneva he walked 68 00:03:22,090 --> 00:03:29,170 for the NSC in Japan he walked the NSC 69 00:03:26,860 --> 00:03:39,400 and Hawaii not thinking this isn't 70 00:03:29,170 --> 00:03:41,680 possible you could possibly have done 71 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:45,510 I'm interested in the human side of this 72 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:50,620 story what was he like as a person him 73 00:03:45,510 --> 00:03:52,450 lc3 I think it took a lot courage he's a 74 00:03:50,620 --> 00:03:56,680 nice wife paid plenty of money he's 75 00:03:52,450 --> 00:03:58,690 living in Hawaii nice girlfriend a job 76 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,540 that commands you know a lot so respect 77 00:03:58,690 --> 00:04:03,520 within the US establishment and he gave 78 00:04:01,540 --> 00:04:05,290 it all up you've seen the huge dress 79 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,660 code to Hong Kong he'd never met any of 80 00:04:05,290 --> 00:04:09,490 us any of the gentleman's before he 81 00:04:07,660 --> 00:04:11,650 wanted the story we didn't really know 82 00:04:09,490 --> 00:04:13,960 people in the media so he flies to Hong 83 00:04:11,650 --> 00:04:16,900 Kong as soon as he flies to Hong Kong he 84 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:19,570 knows the CIA and the NSA security 85 00:04:16,900 --> 00:04:21,549 police I go I start hunting for him and 86 00:04:19,570 --> 00:04:23,500 he's done this he's gone to Hong Kong in 87 00:04:21,549 --> 00:04:26,200 the hope that he'll meet journalists who 88 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:28,990 will spread the word she was taking a 89 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,730 huge gamble if they caught him before if 90 00:04:28,990 --> 00:04:32,200 given the interviews the chances are he 91 00:04:30,730 --> 00:04:32,950 would have been locked up and we'd never 92 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,020 heard from again 93 00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:37,540 what was his motivation than and giving 94 00:04:35,020 --> 00:04:39,490 all this up and well it's certainly not 95 00:04:37,540 --> 00:04:41,080 for the money because he's knew you 96 00:04:39,490 --> 00:04:42,850 hadn't attempted cash any it hasn't 97 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,980 written a book or everything all of that 98 00:04:42,850 --> 00:04:48,700 and he's not egotistical either he's a 99 00:04:44,980 --> 00:04:51,610 fairly shy and you know for the first 100 00:04:48,700 --> 00:04:55,000 six months he was fairly a reticent he 101 00:04:51,610 --> 00:04:57,760 did this over disillusioned with the 102 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,380 intelligence services he's a Republican 103 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,210 he 104 00:04:58,380 --> 00:05:01,530 belongs to the libertarian wing of the 105 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:04,650 Republican Party is not a typical 106 00:05:01,530 --> 00:05:07,710 Guardian reader I think what triggered 107 00:05:04,650 --> 00:05:09,360 on the the wing of the Republican Party 108 00:05:07,710 --> 00:05:11,100 he belongs to believes in small 109 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,890 government their beliefs and privacy 110 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:16,260 believes in the Constitution and he 111 00:05:13,890 --> 00:05:19,080 realized once he was inside the system 112 00:05:16,260 --> 00:05:22,320 how widespread surveillance was that 113 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:25,020 extended to every citizen every citizen 114 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:27,780 in America and they knew for him this 115 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:30,480 which is totally unacceptable for him he 116 00:05:27,780 --> 00:05:33,330 still regards himself as a patriot and 117 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,980 and for the NAC and the intelligence 118 00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:37,470 services were doing was unpatriotic 119 00:05:34,980 --> 00:05:40,770 indeed he thinks the other traitors got 120 00:05:37,470 --> 00:05:44,160 him and a lot of people agree with that 121 00:05:40,770 --> 00:05:46,530 now you've been around the block and 122 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,900 seen many things but even you must have 123 00:05:46,530 --> 00:05:53,670 been startled by the scale of the 124 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:56,340 perfidy that he was describing well he 125 00:05:53,670 --> 00:06:00,120 gave us he gave the Guardian there were 126 00:05:56,340 --> 00:06:01,830 60,000 documents and the single page 127 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,390 document some of these one single 128 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:06,390 document can run to a couple of thousand 129 00:06:03,390 --> 00:06:08,880 pages you know and he gave more 130 00:06:06,390 --> 00:06:09,870 documents to Glenn and Laura and he put 131 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,990 these together and you start reading 132 00:06:09,870 --> 00:06:14,840 through it you just realized the skill I 133 00:06:12,990 --> 00:06:17,900 mean there's almost nowhere in the world 134 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:21,320 the the NSA and the British equivalent 135 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:26,520 GCHQ can't listen they're not you know 136 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:32,160 our intercept emails phone record Skype 137 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:35,010 Facebook me I went there to Hong Kong 138 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:37,020 naive you know thinking okay maybe they 139 00:06:35,010 --> 00:06:39,840 may look at emails but maybe not know 140 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:43,980 you realize they could didn't intercept 141 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:45,960 anything is it or does well they've got 142 00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:49,860 the capability and the use that 143 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:53,460 capability yes it's a matter of debate 144 00:06:49,860 --> 00:06:57,210 just how widespread that is the NSA and 145 00:06:53,460 --> 00:06:58,740 GCHQ continues to insist we only use us 146 00:06:57,210 --> 00:07:01,290 we were looking for terrorists or 147 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:02,970 criminals and as long as you haven't 148 00:07:01,290 --> 00:07:03,750 done anything wrong you get nothing to 149 00:07:02,970 --> 00:07:07,229 worry about 150 00:07:03,750 --> 00:07:09,300 people like Snowden say well it's much 151 00:07:07,229 --> 00:07:12,030 more pervasive than that and lots of 152 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:15,030 famous people again they check their 153 00:07:12,030 --> 00:07:18,030 data and you're vulnerable you once 154 00:07:15,030 --> 00:07:21,390 you've got access to your personal 155 00:07:18,030 --> 00:07:25,170 details you know you should be concerned 156 00:07:21,390 --> 00:07:26,850 about it he then went to Moscow and he 157 00:07:25,170 --> 00:07:28,170 recites they're now on a temporary 158 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:30,120 asylum 159 00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:30,870 what lies ahead for him no one has the 160 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,590 answer to that 161 00:07:30,870 --> 00:07:37,050 his visa runs till the end of July and 162 00:07:34,590 --> 00:07:38,670 the expectation is that the Russian 163 00:07:37,050 --> 00:07:41,400 government will extend it and they've 164 00:07:38,670 --> 00:07:43,580 said that if for some reason they 165 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:46,260 decided no we don't want them anymore 166 00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:48,360 he's got a year in which you can appeal 167 00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:52,590 that decision so he's good Lee is good 168 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:56,280 more than a year left in Russia the 169 00:07:52,590 --> 00:07:59,070 danger for mr. Dean would much rather be 170 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,260 in Western Europe say Germany are even 171 00:07:59,070 --> 00:08:04,110 back in the u.s. if the US were prepared 172 00:08:01,260 --> 00:08:06,419 to do some deal and offer him clemency 173 00:08:04,110 --> 00:08:08,550 but he's still better off in Russia than 174 00:08:06,419 --> 00:08:11,220 sitting in a Supermax Penitentiary and 175 00:08:08,550 --> 00:08:14,580 Colorado at least unlike Chelsea Manning 176 00:08:11,220 --> 00:08:16,910 who whose voice we never really had and 177 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:20,400 we were never able to flesh out 178 00:08:16,910 --> 00:08:22,860 personality at least with Snowden he's a 179 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,690 voice there and he's capable of changing 180 00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:28,440 the public perception of him he's 181 00:08:24,690 --> 00:08:32,580 capable participating in the debate so 182 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:35,940 you know for the time being you know 183 00:08:32,580 --> 00:08:40,440 Russia is the best place for me we 184 00:08:35,940 --> 00:08:41,640 debated after Hong Kong we debated what 185 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,169 would have been a good option for him 186 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,690 you know could he have gone ties when 187 00:08:43,169 --> 00:08:47,580 could he have gone to Venezuela yeah but 188 00:08:45,690 --> 00:08:51,120 no we realize actually there was nowhere 189 00:08:47,580 --> 00:08:53,040 even if he was in Venezuela or Iceland 190 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,560 the Americans were capable Putin enough 191 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,450 economic pressure on you know three 192 00:08:55,560 --> 00:09:00,660 minutes of the airplane to the ground 193 00:08:57,450 --> 00:09:02,310 like we did yeah exactly 194 00:09:00,660 --> 00:09:06,060 not that he was in the back of the plane 195 00:09:02,310 --> 00:09:07,830 so this the only two places he would 196 00:09:06,060 --> 00:09:09,690 have relative safety or Russia or China 197 00:09:07,830 --> 00:09:13,950 was hard to thing anywhere else in the 198 00:09:09,690 --> 00:09:14,490 world is he lonely well I stalk to him 199 00:09:13,950 --> 00:09:17,250 occasionally 200 00:09:14,490 --> 00:09:19,890 he's very guarded he'll talk happily 201 00:09:17,250 --> 00:09:22,740 about more things he's very often the 10 202 00:09:19,890 --> 00:09:25,250 he's careful about talking about his 203 00:09:22,740 --> 00:09:25,250 life and 204 00:09:25,370 --> 00:09:30,320 it's not really wanted to be I hope that 205 00:09:27,860 --> 00:09:34,280 you'll one day some Western European 206 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,510 country might given my Asylum but I 207 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,610 can't think of any Western country 208 00:09:35,510 --> 00:09:43,010 that's prepared to stand up to the US 209 00:09:37,610 --> 00:09:45,170 nor I discussion know you're from 210 00:09:43,010 --> 00:09:48,520 Glasgow and I spent the best years of my 211 00:09:45,170 --> 00:09:52,610 life in Glasgow and this very week 212 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:55,700 Glasgow University inaugurated the same 213 00:09:52,610 --> 00:09:58,490 Edward Snowden as the rector an ancient 214 00:09:55,700 --> 00:09:59,260 and elected position at Glasgow 215 00:09:58,490 --> 00:10:01,970 University 216 00:09:59,260 --> 00:10:04,670 that gives me some pride does it fill 217 00:10:01,970 --> 00:10:08,420 you with some joy also yeah it does I 218 00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:10,700 spoke to Snowden about this and I kept 219 00:10:08,420 --> 00:10:12,740 Sinton this is a really big deal you 220 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:15,680 probably remember as well but Jimmy Reed 221 00:10:12,740 --> 00:10:18,370 in the early 70s this was a leader of 222 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:21,500 the shipyard workers in the upper Clyde 223 00:10:18,370 --> 00:10:23,270 and when the students applause give us a 224 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:25,130 class give us this used to be a fairly 225 00:10:23,270 --> 00:10:29,180 conservative university when they 226 00:10:25,130 --> 00:10:31,760 elected Jimmy Reed a communist as the 227 00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:34,220 rector they're sending a signal they 228 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:36,230 were endorsing a REIT and that's what 229 00:10:34,220 --> 00:10:37,790 they've done with Snowden for a lot of 230 00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:40,250 the world's Snowden as a traitor for 231 00:10:37,790 --> 00:10:41,690 other people he's a whistleblower so 232 00:10:40,250 --> 00:10:45,590 what the classic university students 233 00:10:41,690 --> 00:10:47,360 have done is we're saying we think this 234 00:10:45,590 --> 00:10:50,360 guy's a whistleblower not a traitor that 235 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:53,930 he's done a public service so I'm proud 236 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:55,880 of Glasgow students for doing this there 237 00:10:53,930 --> 00:10:58,880 is also the matter of the cheering of 238 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:02,990 the University Court which is an ancient 239 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:04,730 privilege of the rector I think there 240 00:11:02,990 --> 00:11:09,410 are grounds next time you're talking to 241 00:11:04,730 --> 00:11:13,040 him for saying that he has a protected 242 00:11:09,410 --> 00:11:16,430 position as the rector of Glasgow 243 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:18,160 University and might be able to fly in 244 00:11:16,430 --> 00:11:21,920 and out of glass were to cheer the court 245 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:25,130 I'm not sure that any government would 246 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:28,610 either be wise or even perhaps entitled 247 00:11:25,130 --> 00:11:30,380 to stop him I had thought I thought 248 00:11:28,610 --> 00:11:33,140 maybe he could participate through the 249 00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:35,690 internet but flying in is a is a very 250 00:11:33,140 --> 00:11:36,630 good thought if you could get into 251 00:11:35,690 --> 00:11:39,870 Britain 252 00:11:36,630 --> 00:11:42,180 he then you could apply for asylum the 253 00:11:39,870 --> 00:11:44,100 downside of that is the British 254 00:11:42,180 --> 00:11:45,540 government has been the most reactionary 255 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:50,850 of all the governments involved in the 256 00:11:45,540 --> 00:11:55,170 Snowden saga worse even an Australian 257 00:11:50,850 --> 00:11:57,029 government compared to America you know 258 00:11:55,170 --> 00:11:58,709 look at the actions the British 259 00:11:57,029 --> 00:12:00,810 government has taken the arrest of David 260 00:11:58,709 --> 00:12:03,149 Miranda get into the Guardian and 261 00:12:00,810 --> 00:12:05,490 destroying their hard drives the the 262 00:12:03,149 --> 00:12:07,170 language the as far as I know there's a 263 00:12:05,490 --> 00:12:09,029 criminal investigation still underway 264 00:12:07,170 --> 00:12:11,000 into the Guardian journalists including 265 00:12:09,029 --> 00:12:14,759 me they've been really heavy-handed 266 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,440 people involved in the Snowden story the 267 00:12:14,759 --> 00:12:17,910 Americans are reluctant to come here 268 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,480 even when they're prepared to go to 269 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:22,410 America 270 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:24,990 so perversely I'm not sure Britain is a 271 00:12:22,410 --> 00:12:29,250 great destination for Snowden Scotland 272 00:12:24,990 --> 00:12:31,079 however maybe you and McCaskill thank 273 00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:32,940 you very much indeed for joining us on 274 00:12:31,079 --> 00:12:34,380 the sputnik coming up after the break 275 00:12:32,940 --> 00:12:37,290 we'll be looking at one of the world's 276 00:12:34,380 --> 00:12:39,089 stranger phenomenon Christian Zionism 277 00:12:37,290 --> 00:12:41,160 and with one of the bravest most 278 00:12:39,089 --> 00:12:43,290 honorable Christian gentlemen the 279 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,500 Reverend Stephen sizer we'll be right 280 00:12:43,290 --> 00:12:45,500 back 281 00:12:49,089 --> 00:12:55,420 welcome back to Sputnik Easter has come 282 00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:57,709 and gone but no prospect yet of 283 00:12:55,420 --> 00:13:01,399 resurrection for the Palestinian people 284 00:12:57,709 --> 00:13:05,600 who remain besieged occupied or even 285 00:13:01,399 --> 00:13:07,029 annexed and yet and yet the world does 286 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,250 nothing about it 287 00:13:07,029 --> 00:13:12,680 even the Christian clerics are by and 288 00:13:10,250 --> 00:13:14,980 large silent about the foreign 289 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:17,690 occupation of the Holy Land the 290 00:13:14,980 --> 00:13:21,529 desecration of many of its holy places 291 00:13:17,690 --> 00:13:24,200 and even the siege of Bethlehem the 292 00:13:21,529 --> 00:13:26,240 birthplace of Jesus itself which is 293 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:29,269 surrounded by checkpoints and an 294 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:31,370 apartheid wall one of the exceptions to 295 00:13:29,269 --> 00:13:34,579 that dismal rule is the Reverend Stephen 296 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:37,209 sizer with courage and eloquence and 297 00:13:34,579 --> 00:13:40,760 airy Edition he has spoken out 298 00:13:37,209 --> 00:13:43,370 persistently consistently against the 299 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:46,310 Zionist occupation of Palestine and 300 00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:48,110 Christian complicity with it he's the 301 00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:51,500 author of a couple of cracking books 302 00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:53,870 Christian Zionism roadmap to Armageddon 303 00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:57,290 we'll talk about that in a minute 304 00:13:53,870 --> 00:13:59,870 and Zions Christian soldiers the Bible 305 00:13:57,290 --> 00:14:02,240 Israel and the church and I'm glad to 306 00:13:59,870 --> 00:14:05,149 see Reverend Stephen joins us now 307 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:08,120 Reverend thank you for joining us on the 308 00:14:05,149 --> 00:14:10,810 sputnik we could talk all day about the 309 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:13,910 state of Palestine or the state in 310 00:14:10,810 --> 00:14:16,940 Palestine but because I've got you here 311 00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:21,160 I want to ask you how has it come to 312 00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:23,870 pass the in the land of Jesus himself 313 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:26,839 the Christian leadership and the 314 00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:30,770 politicians who profess great affection 315 00:14:26,839 --> 00:14:33,529 for Christian civilization are silent at 316 00:14:30,770 --> 00:14:37,100 best and complicit at worse than the 317 00:14:33,529 --> 00:14:39,079 Calvary of the Palestinian people how do 318 00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:41,600 you explain that there's a number of 319 00:14:39,079 --> 00:14:44,720 reasons for that George we're dealing 320 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:48,110 with two whammies we're dealing with 321 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:51,410 guilt for the Holocaust and fear of 322 00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:54,190 anti-semitism and they used effectively 323 00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:57,560 by Zionists to silence criticism of 324 00:14:54,190 --> 00:14:59,990 Israel's colonization of Palestine it 325 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,000 goes back to the 19th century when some 326 00:14:59,990 --> 00:15:03,640 very eccentric 327 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,260 leaders began to predict that the Jews 328 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,020 would go back to the lands Christian 329 00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:12,310 nation and they saw this as part of 330 00:15:08,020 --> 00:15:14,610 Britain's blessing to the world we were 331 00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:17,590 civilizing the world with colonization 332 00:15:14,610 --> 00:15:20,200 introducing people to bridge way of life 333 00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:22,690 and the Christian faith and so that was 334 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,640 that was why Britain got behind tsiyon 335 00:15:22,690 --> 00:15:25,870 ISM because it further Britain's 336 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,110 interests in the Middle East 337 00:15:25,870 --> 00:15:32,650 competing with France and Germany and 338 00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:34,300 the Zionists has recognized that Britain 339 00:15:32,650 --> 00:15:35,590 was going to support them and that's 340 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:37,210 where we ended up with a Balfour 341 00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:39,880 Declaration and the broken promises 342 00:15:37,210 --> 00:15:42,490 Britain made to the Arabs as much as to 343 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:45,310 the Jews and the paradox of course is 344 00:15:42,490 --> 00:15:49,510 that many Jews can see this very clearly 345 00:15:45,310 --> 00:15:53,470 both religious Jews and secular Jews who 346 00:15:49,510 --> 00:15:55,690 oppose this Zionist idea of leaving 347 00:15:53,470 --> 00:15:58,060 their own countries and going to live on 348 00:15:55,690 --> 00:15:59,710 stolen land in someone else's well they 349 00:15:58,060 --> 00:16:03,060 realize their act three and a four act 350 00:15:59,710 --> 00:16:05,320 play and you know it's a Christian 351 00:16:03,060 --> 00:16:07,660 agenda Zionism is predominately a 352 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,210 Christian heresy not Jewish there are 353 00:16:07,660 --> 00:16:11,980 nine ten times more Christian Zionists 354 00:16:10,210 --> 00:16:13,300 in the world and Jewish indeed I wanted 355 00:16:11,980 --> 00:16:15,580 to come to that because one of the 356 00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:18,250 things I constantly have to deal with is 357 00:16:15,580 --> 00:16:21,040 people talking about the Jewish lobby in 358 00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:23,680 the United States which of course is not 359 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,570 a Jewish lobbies vary the number of 360 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:28,270 Zionist Jews in the United States is 361 00:16:25,570 --> 00:16:30,880 tiny compared to the number of Zionist 362 00:16:28,270 --> 00:16:34,150 Christians and that's why I was caught 363 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:37,240 by the sub heading subtitle in your book 364 00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:39,940 roadmap to Armageddon one of the reasons 365 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:43,030 tens of millions of if you don't mind me 366 00:16:39,940 --> 00:16:45,820 saying so crazed evangelical Christians 367 00:16:43,030 --> 00:16:49,140 in this picture in the United States is 368 00:16:45,820 --> 00:16:53,350 that they want to get us to our mageddon 369 00:16:49,140 --> 00:16:55,030 yes it's it's a product of a Manichaean 370 00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:57,130 dualistic view of the world the good 371 00:16:55,030 --> 00:17:00,460 guys and the bad guys and we're the good 372 00:16:57,130 --> 00:17:02,980 guys obviously and if you go back the 373 00:17:00,460 --> 00:17:07,209 beginning of the 20th century with the 374 00:17:02,980 --> 00:17:09,780 rise of communism you found that evil 375 00:17:07,209 --> 00:17:11,530 was it was equated with communism 376 00:17:09,780 --> 00:17:12,820 atheism 377 00:17:11,530 --> 00:17:15,520 and and the persecution of the church 378 00:17:12,820 --> 00:17:17,560 and so right through to the 50s and 60s 379 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,740 with particular in America you know with 380 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:24,280 McCarthyism it was the free West against 381 00:17:20,740 --> 00:17:27,460 Russia and communism and and Israel was 382 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:30,280 part of the free West it was our our 383 00:17:27,460 --> 00:17:32,350 beachhead into the Middle East and Syria 384 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:35,020 and Egypt and other countries align 385 00:17:32,350 --> 00:17:38,260 themselves more with with Russia but as 386 00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:41,620 as Russia declined in influence in terms 387 00:17:38,260 --> 00:17:43,720 of communism Islam took over that that 388 00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:46,870 role as the as the phonic 389 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,910 personification of evil and so today you 390 00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:51,550 find that you know the the calves of the 391 00:17:48,910 --> 00:17:53,290 books change but the content stays the 392 00:17:51,550 --> 00:17:56,350 same and then changed the end of the 393 00:17:53,290 --> 00:17:58,240 chapters you go back to the 50s and 60s 394 00:17:56,350 --> 00:18:00,520 Christian Zionists were talking about 395 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:04,660 Saddam Hussein being the Antichrist 396 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:07,210 because he was trying to rebuild Babylon 397 00:18:04,660 --> 00:18:13,200 and he even looked like Nebuchadnezzar 398 00:18:07,210 --> 00:18:15,610 they said but when when he when he dies 399 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:19,210 Osama bin Laden becomes the Antichrist 400 00:18:15,610 --> 00:18:21,400 so you've got to have the demon side 401 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:26,920 you've got to have the bad guys what 402 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:29,130 biblical or scriptural base do these 403 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,630 Christian Zionists draw this from well 404 00:18:29,130 --> 00:18:32,410 Jesus called us to be peacemakers not 405 00:18:31,630 --> 00:18:36,330 widow-makers 406 00:18:32,410 --> 00:18:38,340 and what they're doing is they're taking 407 00:18:36,330 --> 00:18:41,200 promises God made to the Jewish people 408 00:18:38,340 --> 00:18:44,350 four thousand years ago through Abraham 409 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:47,740 and they're applying them to today as if 410 00:18:44,350 --> 00:18:52,150 Jesus never came and so that the church 411 00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:54,400 and the coming of Jesus is a parenthesis 412 00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:56,980 to God's continuing purposes for the 413 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,420 Jewish people and so they take passages 414 00:18:56,980 --> 00:19:01,210 out of the Old Testament and apply them 415 00:18:58,420 --> 00:19:02,860 to today when you know it's like a 416 00:19:01,210 --> 00:19:04,390 cheese grater they're not going through 417 00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:05,470 the grid of the New Testament they're 418 00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:07,480 not going through the grid of the 419 00:19:05,470 --> 00:19:10,960 teaching of Jesus who called us to be 420 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,160 ambassadors for peace to to love our 421 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,490 enemies and pray for those who persecute 422 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:18,760 us as their way to to change their heart 423 00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:20,920 and mind not to kill them but to love 424 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,320 them if you like into the kingdom we 425 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,450 reflected on the Christian American 426 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:28,380 Christians how is it with the British 427 00:19:25,450 --> 00:19:30,639 Christian communities how far they 428 00:19:28,380 --> 00:19:33,399 create for our getting and indeed 429 00:19:30,639 --> 00:19:36,070 beliefs of only a minority but they're 430 00:19:33,399 --> 00:19:37,740 very vociferous and the Zionists welcome 431 00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:41,860 their support because they tend to be 432 00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:43,899 very vociferous even though that by 433 00:19:41,860 --> 00:19:47,139 definition the Evangelist doesn't like 434 00:19:43,899 --> 00:19:48,880 Jews very much I mean the they they 435 00:19:47,139 --> 00:19:50,529 believe the Armageddon will come and the 436 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,620 Jews will have to convert to 437 00:19:50,529 --> 00:19:56,980 Christianity or be killed some do but 438 00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:58,990 you find a range of opinions and within 439 00:19:56,980 --> 00:20:01,809 the kind of Christian Zionist circles I 440 00:19:58,990 --> 00:20:03,519 encounter they've elevated the Jewish 441 00:20:01,809 --> 00:20:05,950 people to a special place and God's 442 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:08,110 purposes either with a view that they 443 00:20:05,950 --> 00:20:11,500 will come to see the light when Jesus 444 00:20:08,110 --> 00:20:14,200 returns or they are accepted by virtue 445 00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:16,120 of their pedigree by their virtue of 446 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,010 their race you know they are the chosen 447 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:22,149 people and therefore they get it they 448 00:20:18,010 --> 00:20:25,480 get a pass a free pass as it were yeah 449 00:20:22,149 --> 00:20:27,880 but either way they have politicized the 450 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:31,510 kingdom of heaven if you like and their 451 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:34,330 act their active agenda is very concrete 452 00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:38,380 it's a lobby Congress Lobby Parliament 453 00:20:34,330 --> 00:20:42,419 it is to finance the emigration of 454 00:20:38,380 --> 00:20:45,100 Russian Jews to Palestine it is to 455 00:20:42,419 --> 00:20:46,960 support the settlement program so there 456 00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:49,389 are twinning between churches and 457 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,429 settlements adopt a settlement fund them 458 00:20:49,389 --> 00:20:54,429 feet you know feed them clothe them 459 00:20:51,429 --> 00:20:56,320 protect them they're seeking to rebuild 460 00:20:54,429 --> 00:20:57,700 the temple destroy the Dome of the rock 461 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,769 and rebuild the temple so you've got an 462 00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:02,380 alliance with extreme jurist groups that 463 00:20:59,769 --> 00:21:05,980 want to achieve that all in the belief 464 00:21:02,380 --> 00:21:08,260 that Jesus will not come by himself we 465 00:21:05,980 --> 00:21:11,100 must bring him by by fighting by 466 00:21:08,260 --> 00:21:15,539 supporting his chosen people 467 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:18,909 the existence of a substantial 468 00:21:15,539 --> 00:21:21,779 Palestinian Christian population and we 469 00:21:18,909 --> 00:21:24,730 could extend this into Syria for example 470 00:21:21,779 --> 00:21:28,090 where you have a very cherished 471 00:21:24,730 --> 00:21:32,529 and substantial number of Christians of 472 00:21:28,090 --> 00:21:36,250 most ancient heritage yes appears 473 00:21:32,529 --> 00:21:38,230 invisible to the Christian world it's 474 00:21:36,250 --> 00:21:40,750 problematic I 475 00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:42,760 to Christians even clerics who say 476 00:21:40,750 --> 00:21:48,220 they're off to Israel to visit Bethlehem 477 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:50,230 yes they don't seem to care about the 478 00:21:48,220 --> 00:21:54,340 fact that Christian Palestinians are 479 00:21:50,230 --> 00:21:56,770 oppressed occupied besieged annexed just 480 00:21:54,340 --> 00:22:00,580 exactly the same as Muslim Palestinians 481 00:21:56,770 --> 00:22:03,160 are they're either blind to the reality 482 00:22:00,580 --> 00:22:05,950 they have a romantic notion about Israel 483 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,809 the land flowing with milk and honey and 484 00:22:05,950 --> 00:22:09,700 they equate the Christian Church with 485 00:22:07,809 --> 00:22:11,950 the European denominations Anglican 486 00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:15,100 Methodist Baptists Roman Catholic 487 00:22:11,950 --> 00:22:17,559 Italian so on so it's either because the 488 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:20,020 indigenous Christian community is is 489 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:22,570 hidden there there they're not aware of 490 00:22:20,020 --> 00:22:24,940 them or if they are they clearly create 491 00:22:22,570 --> 00:22:27,280 a problem and so what you find is 492 00:22:24,940 --> 00:22:30,400 churches in the West will support 493 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,590 humanitarian work among the Palestinians 494 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,809 will support a hospital will will put 495 00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:36,190 money into a blind school or something 496 00:22:34,809 --> 00:22:38,530 where they're not dealing with a 497 00:22:36,190 --> 00:22:42,130 structural injustice of the occupation 498 00:22:38,530 --> 00:22:45,370 now you and I have both been subject to 499 00:22:42,130 --> 00:22:47,650 the calumny that what we see in support 500 00:22:45,370 --> 00:22:50,590 of the Palestinian people and justice is 501 00:22:47,650 --> 00:22:53,559 somehow anti-semitic when nothing could 502 00:22:50,590 --> 00:22:55,900 be further from the truth now how do you 503 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:58,570 personally cope with it you've actually 504 00:22:55,900 --> 00:23:02,710 been witch hunted more than me I have 505 00:22:58,570 --> 00:23:04,570 other means of defending myself but 506 00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:06,580 within the church you've been which 507 00:23:04,570 --> 00:23:08,919 hunted on this people trying to drive 508 00:23:06,580 --> 00:23:13,000 you out of your ministry and so on have 509 00:23:08,919 --> 00:23:15,820 you cope with them when you see the 510 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,620 truth it's hard to unsee it and when 511 00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:19,900 you've experienced what the Palestinians 512 00:23:17,620 --> 00:23:21,850 are suffering when you've when you've 513 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:23,500 lived with them when you've slept in 514 00:23:21,850 --> 00:23:26,309 their homes you've eaten at their tables 515 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:30,669 and you've and you've experienced the 516 00:23:26,309 --> 00:23:34,000 the the aggression of the Israeli 517 00:23:30,669 --> 00:23:37,059 authorities the so-called IDF you know 518 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,660 their army when you've been fired at you 519 00:23:37,059 --> 00:23:40,360 know teargas 520 00:23:37,660 --> 00:23:44,250 sound bombs as I have when you've 521 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:46,659 experienced the raw racism of Zionism 522 00:23:44,250 --> 00:23:49,929 you can't go to sleep at night unless 523 00:23:46,659 --> 00:23:52,429 you maintain your perseverance in doing 524 00:23:49,929 --> 00:23:54,769 what you think is right the you know 525 00:23:52,429 --> 00:23:59,149 distance helps refine your arguments it 526 00:23:54,769 --> 00:24:02,269 helps helps you become stronger and so 527 00:23:59,149 --> 00:24:04,490 actually the opposition I've faced the 528 00:24:02,269 --> 00:24:09,289 complaints the criticisms have only 529 00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:11,059 purified my my my passion and my zeal to 530 00:24:09,289 --> 00:24:13,159 do what I believe is right 531 00:24:11,059 --> 00:24:16,159 repudiate racism I repeated 532 00:24:13,159 --> 00:24:19,369 anti-semitism but there is a basic 533 00:24:16,159 --> 00:24:22,759 injustice going on and we cannot it 534 00:24:19,369 --> 00:24:24,919 cannot hide eyes from it you're a true 535 00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:27,379 Christian gentleman the Reverend Stephen 536 00:24:24,919 --> 00:24:33,049 sizer thank you for joining us on this 537 00:24:27,379 --> 00:24:35,119 but Nick and now it's your turn to tell 538 00:24:33,049 --> 00:24:37,309 us what you think through the portals of 539 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,649 social media what's rattling gayatri 540 00:24:37,309 --> 00:24:41,929 well we received a lot of support for 541 00:24:39,649 --> 00:24:44,809 Snowden or not with the feet splashed 542 00:24:41,929 --> 00:24:47,690 access that Snowden reveals that power 543 00:24:44,809 --> 00:24:50,600 Trump's hypocrisy once over reason 544 00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:53,960 materialism over life death over 545 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:56,419 equality ram oscar o says that the good 546 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,700 guys aren't good anymore only thing you 547 00:24:56,419 --> 00:25:02,499 can do is vote out the mainstream 548 00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:05,600 politicians finally in response to a 549 00:25:02,499 --> 00:25:08,269 Snowden's inauguration as director James 550 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,700 Colin says congratulation to a true hero 551 00:25:08,269 --> 00:25:14,119 we should never rest until he and Julian 552 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:16,059 Assange are free and the guilty guilt if 553 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,049 I could smuggle them up my jumper and 554 00:25:16,059 --> 00:25:20,929 smuggle them out of there 555 00:25:18,049 --> 00:25:23,570 I promise you I would me too well that's 556 00:25:20,929 --> 00:25:26,029 it for this week which unfortunately 557 00:25:23,570 --> 00:25:28,159 means that's all we've got time for keep 558 00:25:26,029 --> 00:25:29,990 in touch with us though on Twitter on Rt 559 00:25:28,159 --> 00:25:32,809 underscore Sputnik and you can like us 560 00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:35,360 on Facebook on Sputnik on Russia today 561 00:25:32,809 --> 00:25:39,039 it's goodbye for me Gayathri and for me 562 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:39,039 George Galloway it's been marvelous