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Okay. Thank you. I

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[Music]

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Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me Gayatri.

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Presidential elections are coming up in

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Indonesia the fourth largest country in

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the world though not a lot of people

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know that. It's an archipelago of tens

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of thousands of islands of which only

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Bali nowadays gets much talked about and

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often for the wrong reasons. This was

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not always the case. The Bandong

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Conference in 1955 on the island of Java

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where I'm from was once the center of

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the emerging postc colonial world. Our

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first and greatest president Sukarno who

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had led this freedom struggle against

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the Dutch convened all the great

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anti-imperialist leaders from around the

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world. Nasser from Egypt, Nu of India,

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Tito of Yugoslavia and Kruma of Ghana

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and many others. Sukarno was the last

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Indonesian president able to give the

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country the weight its size and

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importance deserved. It is the largest

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Muslim country in the world after all

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and when he was overthrown in a US

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organized and blood soaked coup in 1965

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the country went downhill fast and far.

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The US puppet dictator Suarto presided

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over the world's biggest massacre in

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modern times wiping out literally

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millions of his own citizens and all

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with US approval. There was no doubting

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Indonesia's alignment in Suarto's dark

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days. Anyone who has watched Joshua

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Openenheimimer's epic and

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multi-awwardwinning film, The Act of

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Killing, will know that the fascism

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which underpins Suarto hasn't gone away.

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Impunity and amnesia are the twin

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pillars of today's Indonesia. One of the

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remnants is now the prominent

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presidential candidate Suarto Sonilo

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Prao. He's a former general standing

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against Jookoi. He was the current

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governor of Jakarta and was in 2012

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awarded the most outstanding mayor. Last

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week, Praau said that democracy was

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quote an unindesian thing unquote, but

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he's hoping it can be fixed for him.

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Anyway, we'll know the results soon.

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With us now to discuss Indonesia, the

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sleeping giant is Anton Alifandi,

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formerly with the BBC, now the principal

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Southeast Asia analyst at IHS. Anton,

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thanks for joining us. Let's start with

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this uh statement by PBO who says that

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the uh Indonesians don't really need

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democracy. It's an unIndones thing. Uh

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what did he mean by that and how did

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that go down? Well, he's certainly said

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in the past that there there are too

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many administrative regions in

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Indonesia, too many over 500 as a matter

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of fact and he thinks it's too unwieldly

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to govern the country. But I think what

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has happened, what you've given away is

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very difficult to take back. If there

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are any attempts to sort of reign u

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what's been happening in the in in the

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past uh 15 or so years in terms of

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restriction elections, there'll be a lot

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of resistance to that. So you don't

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think it'll go far? No, I don't think

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so. Now, uh, in one way you could see

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this as a Sukarno Suarto runoff,

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although neither of the parties are

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quite what their mentors might have

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been. Would you agree with that? Well um

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contrary to the introduction your

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introduction I think Praoa styles

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himself as Sukarno which you know every

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everyone thinks it's you know slightly

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odd given the fact that he was Suharto

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son-in-law and and he grew up and um uh

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his career advanced under Suarto under

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the authoritarian government of Suarto.

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He he he styles himself as as Sukarno

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but he was never um you know a

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sukarnoist despite the his claims. No he

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is not a sukanoist in ideology but he's

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an he's more an ideologist in the

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suhatto terms. Yeah. Yeah. I I you know

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some some uh there are some character

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characteristics uh which is displayed

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which I I think um sort of um matches

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with the style of governance of Zuharto.

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But times have changed I think in a lot

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of ways. Yeah. I think George wants to

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place Jookoi in the Sukarno Suko. Well,

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I do. Although everything I've seen and

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read about him, he doesn't quite reach

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the mark.

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Uh but he is obviously the the left of

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center candidate or the center left

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candidate and he does have the support

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of uh Sukarno's family. If you look at

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uh Jooko's manifesto, it it it harks

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back to uh all the Sukarno mantras, you

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know, uh uh economic uh

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self-sufficiency,

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cultural independence, political

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independence. So there's a lot of uh

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Sukarno's rhetoric, but I think Prao uh

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sorry Jookoi and his partner very much

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pragmatic in their outlook in terms of

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economic policy and and and even foreign

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policy. So, I don't think you'll see a

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turn, a sharp turn to the left. Uh,

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either way, the sleeping giant issue is

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one that has long occupied my mind. Uh,

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at least since marrying an Indonesian.

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Uh, but before that too, this is a

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gigantic country, the world's fourth

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largest, the largest Muslim country in

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the entire Umahmah. And yet, its weight

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is, forgive me saying so, very, very

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light. its footprint in the world very

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slight. That is true. If you look at it

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for example in Indonesia's contribution

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to world affairs for example and if I in

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in the presidential debates a few weeks

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ago uh Jook Koi uh was in fact asked

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what are you going to do in the South

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China Sea uh dispute uh which is um uh

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occupying the minds of a lot of people

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in the region and he said basically it's

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none of our business. So it seems to me

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he's not really confident enough uh uh

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one in foreign policy and two

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at the moment at least he doesn't have

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uh a close uh grasp of of of the big

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regional issues and perhaps the the the

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big uh world issues as well the world uh

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the big global issues. Well, we'll be

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happy to advise him if he uh if he wins.

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I'm sure you but perhaps he was nervous

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about the kind of smears which have now

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emerged. Uh just the other day it was

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said that he was not a Muslim, in fact a

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secret Christian, that he was not

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Japanese, that he was Chinese and then

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this week even that he was his family

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was affiliated with the Communist Party.

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Yeah, it's certainly uh

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the most badteered and acrimonious

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campaign in Indonesia's history at least

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since uh the Suarto days. So I think a

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lot of people are taken aback and the

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attacks on his uh you know religious

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background. I think it's along the same

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lines as when Obama was um wrongly

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described as Muslim and Arab as you

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know. So it's it's very similar in that

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sense. He looks a bit similar. He does

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look like him. Is there maybe there is a

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sort of an African subliminal

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subliminal touch there. Um but it's

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still a mystery to me. Uh albeit that

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Suarto was from my perspective just a

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brute dictator. Uh, Indonesia is

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exceedingly rich, exceedingly large,

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exceedingly populous, and yet most

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people have kind of forgotten that it

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exists. Malaysia, which is tiny by

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comparison, has a big footprint in the

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world. Yeah, it Malaysia certainly has a

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high profile and you know, some

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Malaysian companies like Petronas are

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global companies. But if you look at the

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the GDP figures, for example, the latest

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uh figure by the World Bank, Indonesia

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is now on the ninth or the 10th um uh

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most um uh country with the the highest

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GDP, not per capita, of course, but it

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it's just below Britain, but it's sort

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of under the radar in that sense. It's

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it's probably not uh sexy enough in

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terms of the trouble that the country

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generates, but it also not um

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high-profile enough in in terms of the

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the companies that Indonesia produce or

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the kind of um uh things that Indonesia

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gets publicized uh about. Well, my

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children will be half Indonesian. Have

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they got uh have they got something good

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to look forward to? Whoever wins, I

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think so. I mean um things have been

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going well economically uh since 2004

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despite um the

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dissatisfaction directed uh towards the

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current president but Indonesia has

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registered solid growth there is you

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know a lot of improve improvement still

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to uh in terms of um uh getting more

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equitable development and so on. Who's

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going to win the presidential election?

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I need to put you on the spot.

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I we don't do polls but uh certainly uh

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the momentum is is with Prao. I think uh

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the campaign is much more focused from

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money from perhaps from his side but

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also I think it's it's uh better focused

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uh while on the other hand the Jookoi

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campaign is much more of a you know

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scatter gun with a lot of um uh people

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directing it. And what is also exciting

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for me is that I've never seen

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Indonesians so engaged in in in the

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elections uh for good or bad. If you and

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if you follow social media, it's just

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that you know there is no middle ground

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there. You're either well for a lot of

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people there's no middle ground. you are

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you're either for Praau who is seen by a

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lot of people as decisive and firm and

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um uh Jookoi who's seen as uh very close

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to the people and has the interest of

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the people at heart. Isn't it the case

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that this is the first real election

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that there has been. It's the first

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election in which a real political

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choice could be made. If if if you

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compare it with, for example, with five

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years ago, it was a three-way race and

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Euro won 60% of the vote against two

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other pairings. Now it's I don't know it

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might not be George W. Bush Al Gore

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close but it's certainly going to be

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close. And will it be fair? Can we trust

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the people I think so bureaucracy to

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count the votes fairly? There have been

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accusations particularly from the Jookoi

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camp that uh Prao has used his old

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military contacts and uh local

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governments uh uh uh of uh directing

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their voters towards his side. But I

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think you have to also bear in mind that

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most voters in Indonesia are stupid.

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They might take the money from whatever

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side, you know, gives out these little

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presents, but they they'll vote mostly,

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I think, at their own accord.

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Anton Alifandi will watch the result

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closely here on the Sputnik. Thank you

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very much. After the break, we'll be

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talking to a man who has no fear about a

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people who have no fear either. We'll be

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right back.

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Welcome back to Sputnik. A veritable

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slaughter of the Palestinians took place

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last week, but nobody much was paying

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attention. Most of the media made sure

267
00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:06,639
about that. All attention was focused on

268
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,800
the kidnap and murder by unknown killers

269
00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:10,720
of three young Israeli settlers

270
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,040
squatting illegally on stolen

271
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,440
Palestinian land. The Western media and

272
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:18,079
politician knew each one of them by

273
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,399
name. Few could have named a single one

274
00:12:18,079 --> 00:12:23,279
of the Palestinian children killed. One

275
00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:25,680
every three days over the last 13 years

276
00:12:23,279 --> 00:12:27,839
by Israel, by settlers, and by the

277
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:29,600
occupation force which guards them. No

278
00:12:27,839 --> 00:12:32,000
sooner had the bodies of the three

279
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,959
settlers been found than a pilgrim of

280
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,399
Palestinians began in Gaza, far away

281
00:12:34,959 --> 00:12:38,320
from the scene of the crime.

282
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Indiscriminate bombing from land, sea,

283
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,880
and air began with once again the near

284
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,680
two million Palestinians locked up

285
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:48,720
inside, having nowhere to run, nowhere

286
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:51,519
to hide. And a young Palestinian boy was

287
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:54,560
kidnapped, tortured, murdered, and set

288
00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:56,720
on fire in West Jerusalem. As usual,

289
00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:59,200
Western statesmen and their media echo

290
00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,519
chambers were unmoved. The state of

291
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:04,000
Israel in any case is out of control,

292
00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:05,839
killing and maming at will, confident

293
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,839
that no one is going to try and stop

294
00:13:05,839 --> 00:13:10,160
them, especially those who pay for it

295
00:13:07,839 --> 00:13:12,959
all and who arm them. A young

296
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:14,800
Englishman, Harry Fear, based in Gaza

297
00:13:12,959 --> 00:13:17,279
when he can get there, is one of the

298
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,279
West's most fearless supporters of the

299
00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:21,839
besieged and belleaguered and all but

300
00:13:19,279 --> 00:13:24,399
abandoned Palestinians. And I'm glad to

301
00:13:21,839 --> 00:13:28,880
welcome him back on board the Sputnik.

302
00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:31,120
Harry, it was a traumatic week and may

303
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,600
have sparked the beginnings of a new

304
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:36,079
inifada in Palestine. How did you see

305
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,279
the week unfold? Well, I mean, it was

306
00:13:36,079 --> 00:13:41,920
extraordinary because it was all of this

307
00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:45,200
attention was brought about because of

308
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:48,240
three Israeli teenagers being killed.

309
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,079
But empirically, three Israeli teenagers

310
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,079
is nothing in the context of this

311
00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:53,760
conflict. But suddenly, the conflict has

312
00:13:52,079 --> 00:13:55,519
the world's attention. massive

313
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,880
attention, massive international

314
00:13:55,519 --> 00:14:02,079
headlines and etc. The fact that almost

315
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:04,720
10 or over 10 Palestinian youths were

316
00:14:02,079 --> 00:14:06,320
killed in the same period uh is of no

317
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,160
relevance to anyone. It's no one knows

318
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,120
any of their names. No one knows any of

319
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:14,000
their names and no one it's it's like no

320
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:16,079
one cares. I personally I don't blame

321
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000
the journalists. I blame I blame the

322
00:14:16,079 --> 00:14:21,360
editors because they frame how

323
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:25,120
everything is produced. And um really

324
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:27,040
it's about the fact that Israel has all

325
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,560
of the power. It has all of the military

326
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,480
power. It has all of the diplomatic

327
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,040
power here. The Palestinians have

328
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,959
practically no power under occupation.

329
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,279
And so all of the attention goes on,

330
00:14:34,959 --> 00:14:39,920
well, what's the the the powerful going

331
00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:42,720
to do next? to collectively punish a a

332
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:45,040
population for an act carried out by one

333
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,959
or two or five or however many of these

334
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:50,000
killers there were of the three

335
00:14:46,959 --> 00:14:52,160
teenagers is an absolutely illegal act.

336
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,639
It's what was most shocking was when the

337
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:57,120
Israeli military basically attacked or

338
00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:59,440
demolished partially the home of the two

339
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:02,079
men that they claim were allegedly

340
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,000
responsible for this murder. Right. But

341
00:15:02,079 --> 00:15:07,440
the point is that this was done in

342
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,360
blatant well evening daylight and the

343
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,120
media didn't pick up on this at all.

344
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,639
They showed it happening. They showed

345
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:16,079
the video real. But the fact that this

346
00:15:12,639 --> 00:15:19,519
was a a primacy war crime, no worries.

347
00:15:16,079 --> 00:15:23,040
We're here in Britain. If uh in the time

348
00:15:19,519 --> 00:15:25,279
of the troublesh the IRA had killed

349
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:29,360
three British people and Britain had

350
00:15:25,279 --> 00:15:33,680
then begun a ruthless, remorseless

351
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:36,880
aerial, naval and land bombardment of

352
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:39,839
entirely unbelievable unconnected

353
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,279
civilian people in parts of Ireland.

354
00:15:39,839 --> 00:15:43,360
Well, I mean, you just got to state that

355
00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:44,800
to see how absurd it is. Britain would

356
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,240
never have done it. They'd never have

357
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,279
gotten away with it. America would have

358
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,959
seen to that if they had. Why is Israel

359
00:15:49,279 --> 00:15:53,040
allowed to do it? Well, it's just

360
00:15:50,959 --> 00:15:54,880
unbelievable. I mean, Israel, the way

361
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,560
Israel has treated this incident, if

362
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,120
that's what you want to call it, is is

363
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,199
is basically to to treat it like it's

364
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,519
kind of a war crime. The kidnapping of

365
00:16:01,199 --> 00:16:05,839
these three Israelis that Palestinians,

366
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:07,600
any Palestinian, any Arab is basically

367
00:16:05,839 --> 00:16:09,199
susceptible to be treated like a

368
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,320
prisoner of war or treated like

369
00:16:09,199 --> 00:16:14,000
basically an animal. And so if you just

370
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,399
for imagine another analogy, imagine

371
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:19,600
that three uh American youths are

372
00:16:16,399 --> 00:16:21,759
kidnapped in the USA. Imagine that the

373
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,160
police and the FBI or whatever go

374
00:16:21,759 --> 00:16:27,199
through literally hundreds of people's

375
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:29,040
homes, ransacking them all just to look

376
00:16:27,199 --> 00:16:30,959
for these three kidnapped youths. I

377
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,560
mean, it's just unimaginable. But the

378
00:16:30,959 --> 00:16:35,040
point is that Israel has treated this

379
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,639
incident not as a kind of a crim

380
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,160
criminal

381
00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:40,000
as a kind of an act of terror. It was a

382
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:43,040
terrible crime. One of the things that

383
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:45,279
occupied me most this week, I had more

384
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:48,000
than a million, in fact almost one and a

385
00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:51,600
half million views of something I put up

386
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:54,880
on Facebook in which I asked, "Where are

387
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:57,120
the Arab leaders? Where are the Muslim

388
00:16:54,880 --> 00:17:00,720
leaders?" None of them appear to be

389
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:04,319
able, willing to lift a finger to even

390
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:06,079
to say, "Stop doing this." Why? Why? Why

391
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:08,240
has the Arab world come to this path?

392
00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:10,799
Well, I this is this is probably one of

393
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,600
the major contentions which separates

394
00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:15,760
the Palestinian issue of apartheid from

395
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,199
the South African issue of apartheid

396
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,600
because at least the the black South

397
00:17:17,199 --> 00:17:22,160
Africans did have some nation state

398
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:25,520
allies. I mean the Cubans for example,

399
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:28,319
but it is shocking and it is almost

400
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,919
eternally depressing that the Arabs have

401
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,240
basically forgotten the Palestinian

402
00:17:29,919 --> 00:17:34,000
issue and in Egypt over the last two

403
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,520
years it's almost got worse and worse

404
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,760
and worse. I mean just let's take for

405
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,480
example one one point of it which is the

406
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:42,480
Rafa crossing with Gaza and Egypt. Uh

407
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,720
there was a murmuring a few weeks ago

408
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,960
that the Egyptians may open the crossing

409
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,559
now that there is some kind of unity

410
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,160
between Hamas and Fata. Well that's

411
00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:52,080
that's flown out of the nest very

412
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,919
quickly because of what's happened. But

413
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,240
the Egyptians talked about potential

414
00:17:53,919 --> 00:17:58,960
improvements. That's all but gone now.

415
00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,640
Hamas is extremely weak in Gaza and the

416
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,880
situation really in the last three and a

417
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,960
half, four weeks has totally

418
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,400
deteriorated. All of the improvements

419
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,160
which have been stacking up over the

420
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:11,840
last few months have just basically

421
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:15,760
evaporated. So this unity uh behind

422
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:19,520
President Abbas has apparently

423
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:21,919
just faded away. Uh and the authority

424
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,840
has no authority. It's called the

425
00:18:21,919 --> 00:18:26,000
Palestine National Authority, but it's

426
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,120
not all of Palestine. It's not national.

427
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,960
It's definitely got no authority.

428
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:33,600
It's not even on life support. I mean,

429
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:36,720
it's virtually comeos this whole

430
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,919
situation. Something has to change. I

431
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,160
don't think that there will be an

432
00:18:37,919 --> 00:18:43,039
inifer. I think that Palestinians are

433
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:47,360
too tired for that. I think that the PA

434
00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:49,679
or the PNA will suppress that. Um the

435
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:52,400
parties the Palestinian parties are so

436
00:18:49,679 --> 00:18:55,039
weak and I think that frankly the morale

437
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,280
is so weak that I think an inifatter is

438
00:18:55,039 --> 00:18:59,200
unlikely. I think what's more likely is

439
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,840
that it'll continue in this fairly

440
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,679
intractable position for months to

441
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,200
continue. The settlements I'm sure will

442
00:19:03,679 --> 00:19:07,440
be made in the name of these three

443
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,320
Israelis who were killed and abducted as

444
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,400
a kind of yeah retribution. And I think

445
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,960
that that that whole kind of reaction

446
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,840
that we've seen in Israel of tens of

447
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,919
thousands of Israelis liking the idea of

448
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,799
killing Palestinian children and going

449
00:19:19,919 --> 00:19:24,080
out and seeking blood, revenge and etc.

450
00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,640
I don't think that's representative

451
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:29,600
necessarily of all of Israel, Israeli

452
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,360
society. But clearly that that marks

453
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,760
very distinctly that there is something

454
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:36,559
wrong with Israeli society in respect of

455
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,000
racism and hatred. And unfortunately, of

456
00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:39,919
course, there's hatred on both sides.

457
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,400
But the po the problem is that all of

458
00:19:39,919 --> 00:19:44,320
the power lies on the Israeli side and

459
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,200
it's free to use that to exact its

460
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:51,440
hatred. And the peace envoy uh was as

461
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:54,880
usual uh absent without leave uh utterly

462
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:58,160
silent. In fact, we now learn signing uh

463
00:19:54,880 --> 00:20:02,720
very lucrative deals uh with the

464
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:04,559
Egyptian military juna in Cairo. Uh you

465
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,559
couldn't make it up. No, I mean there's

466
00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:09,200
a big campaign now. were involved in it

467
00:20:06,559 --> 00:20:12,960
to have him removed as peace envoy.

468
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:15,440
Sheamus Mil in the Guardian uh this week

469
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,120
uh said that he must be stripped of all

470
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,880
public authority, the conflict of

471
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:21,200
interest involved in his business

472
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:24,799
dealings and working for the quartet and

473
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:28,720
his support for the Israeli side in all

474
00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:30,960
uh controversies and his wish to spread

475
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,120
war and confrontation in the Middle East

476
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,919
makes the continuation in the

477
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:37,840
appointment surely uh untenable. You

478
00:20:35,919 --> 00:20:39,600
think he's long for that position? It's

479
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,320
absurd. Of course, it's absurd. The

480
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,320
whole peace process has been absurd. The

481
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,919
idea that the Americans can broker it,

482
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,320
that the idea that there's any mandate

483
00:20:45,919 --> 00:20:50,320
on the Palestinian side, and the idea

484
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,159
that Israel has any intention to do

485
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,720
anything positive to make peace or to

486
00:20:52,159 --> 00:20:57,039
make justice, the whole thing's absurd.

487
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,200
And unfortunately, the Tony Blair

488
00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:01,200
situation of him being this uh peace

489
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,960
envoy to the quartet, basically it's

490
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,240
emblematic emblematic of the whole

491
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,679
situation of the West treating the

492
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,000
conflict in this way. There's no

493
00:21:05,679 --> 00:21:10,480
seriosity. There's no gravity involved.

494
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,159
And even in respect of the sympathy that

495
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,080
we have seen towards the Palestinians

496
00:21:12,159 --> 00:21:16,720
and it's been very limited over the last

497
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,559
few weeks, it's basically just there for

498
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:22,159
diplomatic balance. No one actually

499
00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:26,000
really cares, of course. But I think uh

500
00:21:22,159 --> 00:21:29,440
we've now seen a big switch. The Arabs

501
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,840
have turned away from the Palestinians,

502
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,480
but in the West, I have never known a

503
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:37,440
time where so many people could see

504
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:40,559
clearly uh who the victims in this

505
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,559
picture are. It's very odd, but the

506
00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:45,120
liberation of Palestine might now have

507
00:21:42,559 --> 00:21:46,960
to be driven from not just outside of

508
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:50,320
Palestine, but outside of the region

509
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:52,400
itself. boycott, divestment, sanctions,

510
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,720
all of these big movements getting

511
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,720
stronger and stronger in Europe, but

512
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,080
also in North America. That's one of the

513
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,039
strange things about what's happened

514
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:03,039
over the last month as well, that the

515
00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:05,200
ostensibly you'd expect that the the

516
00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:06,799
killing of these three Israeli youths

517
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,039
would dramatically worsen the

518
00:22:06,799 --> 00:22:10,400
Palestinian image, if you like. But

519
00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:12,320
actually, it hasn't done that because

520
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,320
we've seen the US, the UK, the EU, and

521
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,000
the UN all issue statements towards

522
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,159
Israel saying, "Restrain yourself in

523
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,679
reaction." I mean that's actually in

524
00:22:18,159 --> 00:22:21,520
that in diplomatic terms that is

525
00:22:19,679 --> 00:22:22,880
actually an improvement and we got to we

526
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,880
got to grasp on to where there are

527
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:30,240
hopes. Well, there's a demonstration uh

528
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:33,600
outside the Israeli embassy in London uh

529
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:36,640
today Saturday and there is uh similar

530
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:40,640
demonstrations going on everywhere. Uh I

531
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:42,799
was amazed at the gusto and the spirit

532
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,280
with which uh supporters of the

533
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:47,280
Palestinians weren't fooled by this

534
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:50,720
false dichotomy that had been drawn in

535
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:53,440
the week and were uh up for continuing

536
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:56,320
the struggle. So perhaps all is not

537
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,400
lost. But uh I'm surprised you say you

538
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:01,360
don't think there will be an inifada

539
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:05,360
that finally the Palestinians have lost

540
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:07,760
the will for the time being to fight.

541
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:09,600
What do you base that on? I base that on

542
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,679
the fact that there have been adequate

543
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,000
instance over the years that one would

544
00:23:11,679 --> 00:23:16,400
hope uh with all of the pressures

545
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,080
surrounding them that would spark

546
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,840
something. And I think at the moment, I

547
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,159
mean, there have been clashes over the

548
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,000
last week, um, particularly since the

549
00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:26,400
Palestinian youth was killed in the

550
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,120
reprisal incident, but I don't think

551
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:32,640
there's by any means the kind of numbers

552
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:35,120
needed uh, even at this at at this stage

553
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,440
to indicate that there could be any kind

554
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:40,000
of immediate swelling into an inifard.

555
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:42,159
And I think that an inifard I think

556
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,520
unfortunately the PA knows an inifer

557
00:23:42,159 --> 00:23:45,120
would be a kind of obliteration for the

558
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,159
PA. And I think there's too much

559
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:50,480
self-interest and too much control to an

560
00:23:48,159 --> 00:23:52,559
extent uh and intimidation in the West

561
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,240
Bank for that to ever happen. I think

562
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:56,240
you know the situation in Gaza is

563
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,720
equally as weak. Uh Hamas has

564
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:01,280
practically no allies now. Uh Egypt's

565
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,280
gone and etc. And now the reconciliation

566
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,480
situation well that's basically blown

567
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,760
out of the water because of what's

568
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,720
happened over the last couple of weeks.

569
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,240
So I think that people uh both of the

570
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,440
entities, Palestinian and Israeli

571
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,360
entities are going to want to stabilize

572
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,360
the situation for their own for their

573
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,919
own benefits. And there is this kind of

574
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,360
sick symbiotic relationship between the

575
00:24:17,919 --> 00:24:21,440
Palestinian powers and the Israeli

576
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:23,360
powers and unfortunately the Palestinian

577
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:26,159
people and the chance of an actual civil

578
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:27,679
uprising inif I think that those kinds

579
00:24:26,159 --> 00:24:30,320
of things I think they're they're far

580
00:24:27,679 --> 00:24:32,559
away from us unfortunately. Har stay

581
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:35,559
fearless. Thanks very much for joining

582
00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:35,559
us.

583
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,559
And now it's your turn to tell us what

584
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,279
you think through the portals of social

585
00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:45,679
media. What's rattling guy on Indonesia?

586
00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:48,000
Ahmed Sad Kureshi says that Indonesia

587
00:24:45,679 --> 00:24:49,840
don't have much feet in global politics.

588
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,840
So I don't think it'll make any

589
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,000
difference who wins. They're like

590
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,760
confidence. Yeah. Rather I mean the

591
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,840
weight is there. If they wanted to,

592
00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:01,120
they'd have to be heard and listened to.

593
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:03,440
Yeah. On Palestine. Jason responds. I

594
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:06,320
would send in Blair. He'll sort it out.

595
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,039
Well, Blair's rather busy uh busy doing

596
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,640
a lot of business. Uh this is a man who

597
00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:13,279
made

598
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,679
well over a hundred million pounds in

599
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:17,440
the seven years he's been peace envoy,

600
00:25:15,679 --> 00:25:20,320
most of it from companies and

601
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:23,279
governments operating in the Middle East

602
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,919
area. Uh although he is beginning to

603
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:28,320
spread his wings. He was last seen in

604
00:25:25,919 --> 00:25:30,240
Mongolia. He's even working for the

605
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,240
Mongolians. There you go. Well, that's

606
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,400
it for this week, which unfortunately

607
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,000
means that's all we've got time for. Do

608
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,840
please keep in touch with us on Twitter

609
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,840
at RT_Sputnik

610
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,159
and on Facebook you can like us on

611
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,559
Sputnik on Russia Today. Goodbye from

612
00:25:42,159 --> 00:25:46,100
me, Gatri and from me, George Galloway.

613
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:49,280
It's been marvelous.

614
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,280
[Music]

615
00:25:57,390 --> 00:26:07,299
[Music]