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[Music]

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I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gatri it

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was a shot that resounded across the

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world gavo princip a young Serbian

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nationalist stepped forward on a Saro

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Street and assassinated the Archduke

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France Ferdinand exactly 100 years ago

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the arch duuke was the heir to the austr

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Hungarian crown and the hapless fellow

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fell victim of the rising tide of

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nationalism within the ramshackle Empire

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which was in danger of falling apart at

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the seams but the Empire had powerful

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friends principally the burgeoning power

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of the new Germany forged by bismar only

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just over 40 years before but already

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emerging as the great Continental power

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France which had been crushed by bismar

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in 1870 panicked at the possibility of

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Germany on the March again and call on

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its Ally Russia to come to his Aid she

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called on Britain too which was

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initially reluctant to join in but

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belatedly when the invading German

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crushed neutral Belgium Britain too

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joined the freey and so the first World

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War Began Germany Austria Hungary and

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the Turkish Ottoman Empire versus

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Britain France and Russia it would

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quickly envelop the world joining us

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today is our own house historian on

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matters of War Max Arthur obbe Max

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thanks very much for uh joining us your

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bestselling stunning uh book forgotten

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voices of the great Wars now sold half a

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million copies and it's going like hot

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cakes where I bought that uh and this

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tells the real story but for the viewers

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who haven't read it yet was it really

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all about the arch duuke France

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Ferdinand it I think it was the first

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sparkler in a great bonfire which was to

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come really anything could have lit that

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torch really anything I mean I think if

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uh uh an Austra if a Serbian had trodden

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on a on a austral Hungarian solders toe

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it would have started some sort of it

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was there was too much adrenaline

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pumping from so many countries which had

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very large armies which had not seen War

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since 1870 the British had their own art

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of fights in South Africa but small

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pennies really but I think in the vision

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of what in the lives of the people at

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home we many I've spoken to many of the

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veterans can remember as children

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watching the men returning from the B

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war and in their Reds and looking Grand

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and horses and things and somehow they

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thought this is the image that maybe one

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day I can take on so from the British

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side of things there there was a great

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Readiness to go into war and I remember

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talking to someone he said uh he was man

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then in his 80s or 90s and he said he

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was at

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Oxford and he was down for the summer

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and insisted on getting into uniform so

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he could be do his fighting and be back

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for the mlus term in October and that is

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the every all be over be it all be over

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by melas which is even better line than

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that but you know there was so many

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intrigues going on so many treaties that

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had to be soal verified or abandoned but

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I mean Russia was a big powerful force

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that frightened the Germans once the

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Russians Miz huge Army huge Army

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absolutely gigantic Army and France

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France relied upon that I mean that the

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France was in a sense very much so

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squaring up to people with the thought

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of someone else's arming fighting yes

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that's happened a number of times in

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their history um so it took the uh the

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Russians six weeks really but of course

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the Germans then realized wo gosh this

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is going to be bigger than we thought so

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they term was really I think somewhere

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in the back of their heads was always

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not just to conquer Europe but to C take

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over Russia as well I mean it's even

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then even then even before the the

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mineral oil contents everything that

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Germany wanted could have been supplied

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through Russia yeah so this leban round

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before the before the term was coined

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was in their mind but you can imagine

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the number of conversations must have

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gone on between austr hungarians the

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serbs they were just going to belittle

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the serbs whatever happened it was just

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an excuse really to get this again

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fairly giant army into action it meant

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that the French then had to do something

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about it the Belgium remained on this

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sort of neutral plane and didn't quite

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know where they were and so really

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although they were very brave when the

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the Germans swept through it was a

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futile defense really as and only the

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French really held but I don't think

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people quite realize that in 1914

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that war could have manover in 1914 won

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by the Germans they pushed through at a

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remarkable rapid rate as they did in the

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second world war and drove them to

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Dunkirk here the British held them at

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the man uh actually with a number of

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Indian forces which never get mentioned

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there were probably about 100,000 Indian

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troops holding them there as well uh and

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then slowly for the next four years the

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war of very very high harsh attrition

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went on slowly taking the Germans back

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to Berlin but it was four years George

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four solid years and the fact that I've

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checked recently was it's about

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460 young Lads have been killed in

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Afghanistan that was the average loss of

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life on the British forces every single

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day of the war every single day so when

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they started in the beginning the times

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putting lots of photographs up they

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realized after a while you know just

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couldn't they couldn't couldn't go this

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attrition and that level of loss uh

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changed Britain forever didn't it I mean

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just let's look at the I was going to

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call it banal it's not really banal but

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how many women therefore then never got

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married because all these men had been

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killed and therefore never had children

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and we never got the benefit uh of the

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efforts of these men and the children

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they never had how did it twist or

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distort British I think greatly and I

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still think it's with us I mean uh you

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know a little of this being leader of

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your party and things but you have to

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somehow look now for leaders and quite

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hard to find natural charismatic who you

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would just go along with because it's

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sheer Charisma is sheer demands which

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were tempered or thought through or

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sensitive you followed him

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these men are rare many so so many are

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killed on the Western Front I'm doing a

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book at the moment on a young lad uh of

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20 he was a young leftenant captain of

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Harrow you know everything ahead of him

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poof gone and I lived in asr's house for

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many years where he'd heard of the death

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of his son um on the Western Front born

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born to the leadership born to World of

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politics knew it inside out back killed

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by single bullet you know and you think

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what a waste they had no idea of what

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was ahead of them most of the people

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going to the front uh they might well

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have studied the American Civil War uh

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which 35 40 years hence are behind them

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but which nonetheless showed the sheer

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casualty scale of casualties that such a

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war of attrition and with the new

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technology and so on but they didn't did

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they they didn't

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600,000 killed in those those years and

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no the photographs were there brilliant

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photographs the Dead the maimed but I

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suppose always in the back of a

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soldier's head having been there is it

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ain't going to be me but even so not

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to show more clearly what was ahead of

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them what a machine gun could do you

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know just put a cabbage up just run it

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through that's what's going to happen to

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you you know and it was a machine gun

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which changed in many ways everything

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but the the heaviness of the artillary

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the world has never seen you know you

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could drop it as they did at Jutland

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over 12 mile distance with accurately

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onto another ship those bombs are almost

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as strip proof as they are now um so we

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had no concept of the reality of the war

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which we were going into our last

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encounter was against gorillas

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who we call gorillas in the B War you

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know they didn't fight as regiments

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there was so Battalion level we

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conducted quite good Wars but suddenly

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the generals who had

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been active in the B War suddenly then

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had no longer a th000 men to look after

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they had 20,000 30,000 men which they

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had to move time and time again at speed

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often detaching many of them and losing

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many of them but the only tactic they

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knew was to

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advance after heavy heavy heavy

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bombardment whereas War had swung in

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favor of Defense hadn't it this

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technology uh argued that actually the

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man sitting defending something rather

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than trying to move forward was the man

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to beat going back to the arch duuke

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most people have forgotten that the

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austr Hungarian empire ever existed

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I've described it as ramshackle how

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ramshackle was I don't think it was that

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ramshackle it was it was in it was a

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benevolent sort of despot that was

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looking after it he was not loved the

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heir to the throne who was killed um and

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he they they all thought he was he'

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married benath his class and so she was

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ordered on All Occasions to walk behind

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him so I suppose in many ways the loss

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of him to that country was probably as

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great as it should have been um because

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it meant the old man stayed on but of

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course he was quickly seduced into an

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attack on Serbia and that the the others

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could not accept Serbia was a real live

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poent threat absolutely yeah the serbs

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proved then uh and subsequently in the

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Second World War uh that there were very

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formidable Fighters and and since and

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since and since yeah and since um now

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War comes with propaganda of course and

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about the German side it was said uh

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that they were behaving extremely

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ruthless they were raping NS and

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throwing babies over Tower tops to what

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extent is that in Belgium in Belgium in

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the neutral Belgium of course course if

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you want to get a a group of people off

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the ground moving quickly tell people

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about the assaults on women on children

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and you'll get Mas grows

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anywhere most armies kill civilians

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somewhere on the line they have to CU

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they're not sure what repercussions of

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passing by someone uh would be because

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the communications were still there on

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the telephone so let's kill them um

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there were undoubtedly atrocities in

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Belgium but the way the propaganda

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worked was oh we can't have this and the

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English are very prone to

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defending the in that is that what

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triggered the the British not quite it

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kind of pushed uh Britain they did into

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the war yeah when some of the arguments

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in the cabinet were were against it Max

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we've run out of time I must say it's

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been reissued your Bo half a million

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copies sold it deserves to sell half a

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million more thank you I must say it's a

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fantastic piece of work Lov our own

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historian Max Arthur OB coming up after

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the break Dutch historian Dinka Hondos

276
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:59,079
on slavery Europe and Blackness I

277
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promise you you won't want to miss it

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[Music]

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welcome back to Sputnik the European

280
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Empires grew vastly rich on the ghastly

281
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,160
trade of enslaving other human beings

282
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chaining them throwing them into the

283
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holds of leaking verminous ships and

284
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sailing them thousands of miles to work

285
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:28,399
as beasts of burden and the so property

286
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just like his cattle and his sheep of

287
00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:34,160
their owners slavery largely though not

288
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wholly died out but the racism which

289
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:39,760
underpinned it never did Britain was of

290
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,920
course a preeminent European slaver but

291
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,760
the Netherlands nowadays synonymous with

292
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,519
liberal values was a brute slaver too

293
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,519
and perhaps first in the race to

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racialize all discourse they did invent

295
00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:55,320
the concept of apartheid after all our

296
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:57,880
next guest Dr Dinka Hondas teaches in

297
00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:01,680
Amsterdam but writes powerfully across

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the world on slavery and its twin racism

299
00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:05,839
she's written a new book called

300
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blackness in Western Europe and I'm glad

301
00:14:05,839 --> 00:14:10,440
she joins us now Dr Dinka thanks for

302
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,839
coming on the Sputnik I I haven't read

303
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:16,320
your new book yet but I did read your uh

304
00:14:12,839 --> 00:14:18,240
Heritage uh slavery guide to Amsterdam

305
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,639
and I thought to myself we could do with

306
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:23,920
one of these here in London and Bristol

307
00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:26,759
and Glasgow and so on uh so slavery was

308
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,959
around a long time uh most of the

309
00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:33,720
European Empires were deeply involved in

310
00:14:29,959 --> 00:14:36,079
it uh tell us how you think and this is

311
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:39,199
what I think is the thesis of your new

312
00:14:36,079 --> 00:14:41,440
book how slavery has never really gone

313
00:14:39,199 --> 00:14:44,320
away it's been replaced in the sense

314
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:47,079
with this kind of racism this kind of

315
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,519
fear of Blackness we are involved in a

316
00:14:47,079 --> 00:14:51,600
lot of debates about racism today and

317
00:14:49,519 --> 00:14:54,639
anti-racism and how to fight it what

318
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:57,040
forms it takes but to understand how it

319
00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:59,519
developed we have to go uh away from the

320
00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:02,519
21st and the 20th century and really go

321
00:14:59,519 --> 00:15:05,000
back to the 16th century when uh uh

322
00:15:02,519 --> 00:15:08,800
black and white people first met it is

323
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:11,839
in those first meetings that um European

324
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:16,120
uh Supremacy white superiority feelings

325
00:15:11,839 --> 00:15:19,199
have developed and uh somehow uh

326
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:21,440
remained intact for a very long time and

327
00:15:19,199 --> 00:15:24,279
this has not been very visible within

328
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,079
Europe here in London or in Bristol as

329
00:15:24,279 --> 00:15:28,000
you said or Liverpool or in the

330
00:15:26,079 --> 00:15:30,680
Netherlands in Amsterdam and in

331
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,560
middleberg and in Rotterdam uh the

332
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,959
history of slavery remained very

333
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,639
invisible all the decisions were taken

334
00:15:34,959 --> 00:15:39,240
here in Europe in all the the beautiful

335
00:15:37,639 --> 00:15:41,600
houses and the offices here those

336
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:44,959
decisions were made but the enslaved

337
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:47,839
people themselves were not here so uh

338
00:15:44,959 --> 00:15:50,279
the color line remained uh not

339
00:15:47,839 --> 00:15:52,959
completely but virtually intact and that

340
00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:55,880
made it easier for white Europeans to

341
00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:58,360
continue that that long history of

342
00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:01,800
enslavement and the slave trade and

343
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:04,680
after the abolition of slavery in 1863

344
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:07,160
and in um Britain in

345
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:10,480
1833 this history was more or less

346
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:12,040
forgotten uh but traveling to Europe uh

347
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,079
from the British colonies and from the

348
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:17,519
Dutch colonies remained very very

349
00:16:14,079 --> 00:16:19,480
difficult and so um both Britain and the

350
00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:22,399
Netherlands and also France remained

351
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:24,800
virtually white and it is that whiteness

352
00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:27,920
that has remained intact and that has

353
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:31,880
kept the idea of uh whiteness as extra

354
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:34,319
extra beautiful extra powerful extra

355
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:37,600
natural intact for a very long time

356
00:16:34,319 --> 00:16:40,279
until the 20th century then we see the

357
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,560
postcolonialism growing but only then

358
00:16:40,279 --> 00:16:46,519
only later in the 20th century do we see

359
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:49,360
a real change and then uh both the

360
00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:53,040
postcolonial presence enters Europe but

361
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:55,759
also racism comes back to Europe and now

362
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:59,920
we have to deal with that so we are so

363
00:16:55,759 --> 00:17:02,440
prior to the 20th century then uh

364
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:04,799
Blackness and slavery were a synonym

365
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:07,240
really I mean the there were no black

366
00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:10,240
people living amongst us we never met

367
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:12,799
one uh but we profited from the

368
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:15,400
existence of black people yeah what I

369
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:18,720
show if you see the cover of the book is

370
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:21,959
uh uh is not a slave is a black

371
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:24,000
servant uh a beautiful boy or could be a

372
00:17:21,959 --> 00:17:26,880
beautiful girl so there was a very

373
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:29,360
selective black presence in Europe very

374
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,280
few people were allowed entrance usually

375
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:34,440
as beautiful children who were then uh

376
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,919
made the black servants in beautiful

377
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:39,360
homes here in Britain but also in uh

378
00:17:36,919 --> 00:17:41,240
Scandinavia and in Germany and in

379
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:43,799
Austria everywhere in Northwestern

380
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:46,600
Europe and how were they treated well we

381
00:17:43,799 --> 00:17:49,840
know still very little about that but uh

382
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:52,480
since their presence was so exceptional

383
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:56,880
uh they were able to develop friendships

384
00:17:52,480 --> 00:18:00,760
and they were accepted as uh uh yeah as

385
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:02,520
trophies really as as special gifts uh I

386
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:06,679
don't know how you can maybe as a kind

387
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:10,120
of pet you can compare it to that so one

388
00:18:06,679 --> 00:18:12,240
Merchant would give uh a little child uh

389
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:15,200
to the other as a kind of gift as a

390
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,679
special gift to treat but the 20th

391
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,440
century all that changes uh there begins

392
00:18:17,679 --> 00:18:23,200
to be especially in the second half of

393
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:27,000
the 20th century big movements of people

394
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:29,640
uh from the hether to colonized and even

395
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,000
enslaved countries or of the people we

396
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:35,679
used to colonize and enslave and the

397
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:38,760
impact of that on European Society was

398
00:18:35,679 --> 00:18:42,400
what well for the first time the Empire

399
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:44,360
came back into Europe and you know white

400
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,240
and white people have to deal with the

401
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:49,559
presence of black people and of Asian

402
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:52,679
people then from then on so that is H uh

403
00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:54,520
quite a change and people of uh uh your

404
00:18:52,679 --> 00:18:56,200
generation of the generation of my

405
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,520
parents can still remember the first

406
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:01,039
time they saw a black person or an Asian

407
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,600
person person if you interview people

408
00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:05,440
white people they will still remember

409
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,919
that why is it so hard to deal with that

410
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,720
I mean you you wouldn't remember the

411
00:19:06,919 --> 00:19:11,880
first time you saw a red-haired person

412
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,640
uh or uh well that's a good question

413
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,440
that's a good question why is that so

414
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:19,159
why why is it so

415
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:20,919
impactful I think uh images about black

416
00:19:19,159 --> 00:19:24,120
people and Asian people had been around

417
00:19:20,919 --> 00:19:27,960
for those centuries but not actually uh

418
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:31,679
living persons very very few so there is

419
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:34,799
no uh tradition of ordinary interaction

420
00:19:31,679 --> 00:19:37,400
uh common living together just you know

421
00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:39,919
that uh is still recent this is still a

422
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:43,280
recent phenomenon so it's it still takes

423
00:19:39,919 --> 00:19:47,679
getting used to uh and is it because

424
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:49,840
this is my untutored thesis that having

425
00:19:47,679 --> 00:19:51,720
enslaved and conquered and colonized

426
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,520
people you have to persuade yourself

427
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,280
that you are superior to them otherwise

428
00:19:54,520 --> 00:20:00,760
how can you justify taking them and

429
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:03,000
taking their things and having persuaded

430
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:06,320
ourselves over centuries that we were

431
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:10,200
the master race it's very difficult now

432
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:13,520
to treat equally those uh that we forly

433
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:17,159
colonized and enslaved I think that

434
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:20,280
is high very likely nobody gets over

435
00:20:17,159 --> 00:20:22,039
centuries of colonialism just like like

436
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,080
a snap of a finger what what about

437
00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:28,120
looking at it for a minute from the

438
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,320
other side you might be better placed uh

439
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:32,760
for that

440
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:35,640
um if if white people find it difficult

441
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,480
to deal with the relatively recent

442
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:42,080
presence of large numbers of people of

443
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:44,320
color how do people of color feel being

444
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:47,039
in the presence of a great majority

445
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,679
still of of white

446
00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:51,360
people do you want to answer that well

447
00:20:49,679 --> 00:20:53,159
the thing is that um we're talking

448
00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:55,400
specifically about black people but the

449
00:20:53,159 --> 00:20:58,120
Dutch in specific also enslaved

450
00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:01,200
Indonesian specifically from java and

451
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:04,480
they transported them to Surinam amongst

452
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:07,080
others so um there is definitely a sense

453
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,360
of I feel very connected to this topic

454
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,240
anyway I mean when you go into a

455
00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:12,480
restaurant for example and almost

456
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:15,559
everyone there is white do you notice

457
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,320
that I do I do very much I have a I have

458
00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:19,760
a very I have a very high conscious of

459
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,400
that conscious consciousness of that of

460
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:25,520
being the only Asian or or woman of

461
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:28,799
color and in some group or setting and

462
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,799
especially living being born and born in

463
00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:32,720
and living in in the in the west

464
00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:35,440
actually in the actual country that

465
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,320
colonized my my family's country it

466
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,039
makes me even more aware of it what did

467
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:43,200
what did your researchers doctor uh tell

468
00:21:40,039 --> 00:21:46,320
you about that particular Point well uh

469
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:49,600
it's it's very uh good to stress uh the

470
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:51,120
element of slavery history in Asia

471
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,080
because that is something we know still

472
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,880
very little about when we think of

473
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,080
slavery and the slave trade we think of

474
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,840
the Caribbean and we think of the

475
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:03,240
movements from West Africa to the to the

476
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:05,360
Americas but the Asian Empires were also

477
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,320
full of this history of enslavement and

478
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:10,159
of the slave trade and that has not

479
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,240
really been addressed uh in my book I

480
00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:15,520
show that and also in the walking guide

481
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:18,640
for Amsterdam we show that uh the same

482
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,600
families in Amsterdam had shares both in

483
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,279
the East India Company and in the West

484
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,400
India Company so we can locate that in

485
00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:28,159
the same houses along the canals in

486
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,360
Amsterdam so there you see that the the

487
00:22:28,159 --> 00:22:32,760
start in point and the Investments and

488
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:34,400
the insurance companies were you know

489
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,320
they they put money in the west and put

490
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,679
money in the East now in anthropology

491
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,200
and in history that have become very

492
00:22:39,679 --> 00:22:44,600
separated Fields but when you bring it

493
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,159
back to the cities in Europe you can see

494
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:50,720
that it is very con same owners yeah

495
00:22:47,159 --> 00:22:53,679
same owners I always say uh I mean I say

496
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,640
it as a joke but it's real that many

497
00:22:53,679 --> 00:22:57,679
white people are afraid of black people

498
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,720
but I always point out to them that the

499
00:22:57,679 --> 00:23:04,039
black fellow has got far more to be

500
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:06,080
afraid of you uh than you have of him

501
00:23:04,039 --> 00:23:09,080
after all it was People Like Us who

502
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:13,360
enslaved people like him and he's here

503
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:16,000
because of that uh are we ever going to

504
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:18,240
reach a stage where we'll go into a

505
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,240
restaurant and we won't notice the color

506
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,120
of the people there I think to to deal

507
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,279
with this history we first have to

508
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:29,320
recognize the impact of color of

509
00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:31,480
Blackness and of uh um the just simple

510
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,440
skin color the impact of that we first

511
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,000
have to recognize that and then maybe it

512
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:39,480
can be become less important you talk

513
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:42,240
about fear I think uh most white people

514
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:45,600
are not so much afraid of black people

515
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,760
but they uh they have a problem uh

516
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:51,400
dealing with uh black and Asian people

517
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:53,720
as adults regarding them as full scale

518
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,000
uh adult human beings as opposed to CH

519
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,760
children yes the image really is one of

520
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,840
the child a sort of permanent child

521
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:05,080
white people have a yeah but but really

522
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:08,520
a sort of childishness and uh and that

523
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:11,520
also def the explains the idea that

524
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:15,279
white people are feel Superior in in

525
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:18,159
teaching and uh you know well yeah the

526
00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:21,679
British Empire went uh went to Africa

527
00:24:18,159 --> 00:24:24,799
and further a field just to teach them

528
00:24:21,679 --> 00:24:27,000
how to be like us Dr Dinka best of luck

529
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:29,000
with that book blackness in Western

530
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,710
Europe and thanks for coming on the

531
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,440
sputnick thank

532
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:35,000
[Music]

533
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,000
you and now it's your turn to tell us

534
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,679
what you think through the portals of

535
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,039
social media what's rattling gy oh what

536
00:24:39,679 --> 00:24:44,799
a lovely War the film from

537
00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:48,240
1969 was it really all about the arch

538
00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:51,159
Duke France Ferdinand fi moriarti

539
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:54,200
replies it surely was not it was to do

540
00:24:51,159 --> 00:24:57,360
with an arms race ego essentially and

541
00:24:54,200 --> 00:25:00,399
Roger the Dodger answers like most War

542
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:02,960
it was about power money and egos had

543
00:25:00,399 --> 00:25:05,399
very little to do with what concerned

544
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,760
most ordinary people at the time the

545
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history of slavery and Europe what do we

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actually know Rea Grant replies many

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settlers in the west who are the product

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of European slave system no nothing

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actually and A to Z replies earlier

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common public used to be direct slaves

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but now they are being managed through

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puet governments well that's it for this

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week

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now we to might be three by the time

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they next see us together again well do

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please keep in touch with us anyway on

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Twitter at rtor Sputnik and on Facebook

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00:25:39,919 --> 00:25:44,399
you can like us on Sputnik on Russia

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today it's goodbye from me gri and from

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me George Galloway it's been marvelous

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oh

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[Music]