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[Music]

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I get

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[Music]

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me Joseph

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hayatt he's standing in for gatri who

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I'm grateful to announce gave birth to

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our son torren earlier this week the

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Mafia the kostra our thing has much in

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common with our current ruling class

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except the mafia usually drew the line

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at murdering women and children but when

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it comes to plunder extortion corruption

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and the Casual deployment of violence to

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achieve their ends well the mafia are

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just the roughest end of capitalism a

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kind of naked free enterprise

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originating in Sicily and moving big

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time to the United States the mafia have

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been with us for well over a century

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immortalized on film glamorously in The

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Godfather epics less so in Goodfellas

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not at all in The Sopranos the word

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mafia has become a byword for organized

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crime of all ethnicities the Chinese

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Mafia the Kurdish Mafia the kovan mafia

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and so on joining us now to discuss the

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original Mafia is historian TV presenter

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and international bestselling author

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professor John dicki his books include

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Mafia brotherhoods Coan ostra which I've

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read and his latest Mafia Republic which

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is going to be a very big film Professor

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thanks very much for joining us so the

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mafia what is it is it the Godfather or

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is it the Sopranos uh it's very much

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more The Sopranos than the Godfather I

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mean The Godfather is where most people

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start but the thing The Godfather film

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gets

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wrong um is that it mistakes family in

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the sense of uncles cousins and so on

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and so forth with family in the mafia

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sense which is really a metaphor a

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metaphor for the organization itself and

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they kind of borrow the idea of the

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family to bind their group together

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really mafias are systems for exploiting

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fames rather than being blood families

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in in the sense we normally understand

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so little in the way of honor not that

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there was very pure honor in The

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Godfather but at least they pretended or

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maybe even thought that they were held

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together by a kind of Honor um well

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honor certainly not in the sense we

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understand it in this you know the mafas

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have always killed children and women

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and whatever and they've always also uh

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talked to the to the police and the

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state whenever it suited them that's you

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know that there's uh there's no honor in

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that sense but honor in the mafia sense

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does exist and has been part of their

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way of doing things since they began in

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the middle of the 19th century and honor

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essentially means a kind of criminal

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Pride it's honor is kind of law for

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those outside the law in a way so they

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begin in this uh smallish Island uh at

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the foot of Italy but they become

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International bestsellers uh this

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achieved presumably by their rather

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large immigration to the United States

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well we need to be clear one one of the

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things behind this this new book one of

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the arguments behind this book is that

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to really understand the mafia as in

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Kenra the Sicilian Mafia we need to

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understand that it's actually only one

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of three major criminal organizations in

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Italy and today it's not even the most

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powerful the most powerful is widely

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reputed to be the andanga which is the

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mafia of Calabria Calabria being the toe

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of the Italian boot uh and what my new

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book does is tell the story of these

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organizations in parall in the way that

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they've related to one another learned

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from one another occasionally fought

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from one another and above all had

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variance of the same relationship to the

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Italian state but you're right yes it in

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as far as kostra is concerned it's the

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link to the United States uh that really

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projected it onto the world state age

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but the most successful of the Italian

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mafias that's spreading around the world

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is the andang the calabrian Mafia the

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one that nobody can pronounce few people

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know little about the andang has had a

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presence in Australia for example since

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at least

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1930 it's in Canada it's in Germany it's

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in Northern Italy it's easily the best

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of all of the mafia it's setting up

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little colonies uh around the world I

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know a lot of Italians and none of them

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strike me as criminal Beyond anyone

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else's criminality or uh or even violent

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Beyond anyone else's potential for

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violence what was it about Sicily Italy

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that made them so good to organized

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crime like a lot of societies in the

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Mediterranean they've got a lot of

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problems you know with building a state

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particularly in the South Italy's

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institutions have always been fragile

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always vulnerable to corrupt ction and

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patronage politics clientalism that kind

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of thing but the real spark that sets

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the mafias off the reason why southern

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Italy as opposed to lots of other

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societies that have the same problems

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has mafias is to do with a link to

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politics to do with a link to political

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violence above all and it's no

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coincidence that the mafias are about as

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old as the Italian State Italy founded

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in 1860 garabaldi and all that that's

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when it first became a unified State and

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that Pro that process of uniting Italy

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was a process of Revolution it was it

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was a violent overthrow of a a monarchy

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the borbon monarchy in southern Italy

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and the

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conspirators who took part in that

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Revolution needed revolutionary muscle

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and they recruited that revolutionary

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mus muscle amongst the criminals

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particularly when they ran into them in

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prison and many of those cons spors were

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members of sort of masonic like secret

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societies it was a good way to do

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politics when you were conspiring

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against uh a regime like the borbon

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monarchy and so they

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recruited those criminals into their

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Masonic organizations and if you want an

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easy definition of what a mafia is it's

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not uh a criminal business it's a a free

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masonry of criminals it works like the

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Freemasonry that's really the key idea

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to keep uh in your head really to

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understand how the mafia works now going

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back to the

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1930s maybe earlier the United States

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set up all manner of uh crime busting

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outfits Untouchables and all of that did

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they ever get on top of this yeah I

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think the United States has made as has

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uh Italy incidentally made made

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important progress in recent years um I

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mean famously it took the FBI until the

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late 1950s before it actually decided to

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prioritize uh the fight against

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organized crime and recognize that Mafia

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actually existed it had other priorities

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not notably fighting Reds under the bed

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uh for example but the key moment came

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in the 1980s Sicilian Mafia essentially

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controlled the supply of wholesale

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wholesale heroin into the the Eastern

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United States and this led in Sicily to

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an extraordinary outbreak of violence as

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well as a heroin epidemic in the United

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States and uh literally hundreds

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thousands killed in the worst Mafia wars

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in history and the state finally

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responded creating legislation and a

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kind of law enforcement

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infrastructure that was up to the task

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you know 150 years too late if you like

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and slowly slowly in recent years

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progress has been made by some appalling

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setbacks like the murders of heroic

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investigating magistrates javanni

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Falcone and Paulo borcel in

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1992 um the Sicilian

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Mafia uh is in the worst state that it's

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been in its whole history really yeah

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it's uh it's certainly not beaten it's a

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long way from being beaten but its

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historic leadership apart from one uh

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man who's still on the run is all Behind

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Bars serving uh lense in the United

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States they they had the uh famously in

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The Godfather the go the the one of the

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uh Senators I think he was comes to the

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wedding and so on and in the Italian

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State they were particularly close to

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Christian democracy weren't they that's

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right it's really the the Cold War froze

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Italian politics for 50 years Italy had

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the biggest Communist party in Western

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Europe couldn't be elected um uh the

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biggest in the sense of electoral

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support and this gave the Christian

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Democrat Party Monopoly access to power

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and the favors of the church and so on

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and in southern Italy the Christian

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Democrat Party was uh whole was very

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seriously infiltrated by organized crime

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think back to that definition I gave you

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of mafias as being like the Freemasonry

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for criminals uh

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okay inherent in the the Freemasons is

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the idea of Crossing class boundaries

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yeah my grandfather was a Freemason he

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laid cobblestones in Edinburgh for for a

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living yeah it was an ordinary Working

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Man whereas at the same time members of

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the royal family are members of the

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Freemasons it cuts right across the

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hierarchy of social classes and the

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mafia is exactly the same you'll find

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Thugs and Aristocrats businessmen

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politicians awful lot of doctors and

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lawyers uh we we shouldn't be surprised

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uh at any point in the mafia's history

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to find that political and

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entrepreneurial element within the mafia

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Professor you obviously raised the fact

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that the mafia very much capitalized on

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the three mesa model of going across all

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the social Spectrum um obviously we see

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amongst young people today that the

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mafia kind of typical film image if you

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like is very much favored as a fashion

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do you think that resonates with the

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Matthew is in its true form in Italy

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that's probably true outside of Italy I

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think I think it's fair to say there's

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no doubt that a film like The Godfather

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trades off a certain glamour you if you

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break that film down image by image it's

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all about us getting the freea of

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identifying with Michael who's a you

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know who's the bad guy you know but in

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Italy things play very very differently

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it's only really in certain very limited

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environments close to the mafia you know

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the mafia does command its own area of

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support the mafia is command their own

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area of support in society that's

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absolutely true but broadly speaking

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Italian that idea the idea of Glamour

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just doesn't play the same way

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and fat slob than Michael

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C very much so I mean you know these are

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people who who kind of dissolve children

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in acid and stuff like that you're not

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going to you there's there's much you

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can do to glamorize people like that

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Professor it's been absolutely

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fascinating talking to you thanks very

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much indeed for joining us coming up

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after the break it was the left's finest

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hour and if the others had listened to

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us the second world war could have been

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averted and almost 100 million people

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saved we're talking the Spanish Civil

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War don't go

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[Music]

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[Music]

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away welcome back to Sputnik when a

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fascist pooched was launched by General

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Franco in Spain in 1936 it could have

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remained a little local difficulty

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instead it became a dress rehearsal for

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the second world war emboldened by their

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success in abua earlier the new fascist

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powers of Hitler's Germany and melini's

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Italy promptly threw their way behind

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the attempt to destroy the Democratic

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Spanish Republic the Western democracies

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stood idly by indeed they imposed an

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arms embargo on the legitimate

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government of Spain as Hitler's Air

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Force divebomb the ancient V capital of

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gika reducing it to Ash a crime

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immortalized by Picasso in his painting

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of the same name Nazi guns and material

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flooded into the fascist Franco forces

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as they steadily Advanced murdering all

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in their way only the then Soviet Union

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came to the aid of Spain they and the

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huge International citizens Army of

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volunteers who came from all over the

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world and came to be known as the

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international Brigade The failure of the

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western powers to Halt fascism in Spain

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led directly to the series of Hitler

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provocations elsewhere in Europe in the

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reinland in Czechoslovakia and which

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started the cataclysm of the second

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world war it is hard to imagine a higher

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price which could have been paid for

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Folly joining us now to discuss the

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Spanish Civil War and the British

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volunteers who fought in it is Dr

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Richard baxel historian and author of

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unlikely Warriors just released in

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paperback a story which weaves together

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a diverse array of testimony to tell the

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remarkable story of the Britains who

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took up arms against General Franco Dr

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Richard thanks for uh joining us uh just

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paint the picture if you will of what

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kind of British people joined the

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international Brigade went to fight in

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Spain and what did they find when they

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got there well overall there were about

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2 and a half thousand people from around

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the British Isles and Ireland and cont

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contrary to a lot of people's idea of

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the of the international brigades

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they're actually overwhelmingly

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workingclass men and some women from ma

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the major urban areas around Britain so

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London Manchester merys side tinside

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huge number from Scotland from the South

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Wales uh mining areas so they're very

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much working class of the left majority

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of them were Communist party but it

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wasn't just Communists it was all of the

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left from the labor part from the labor

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right the way through um and they went

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to Spain because they'd seen the advance

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of fascism across Europe uh in their own

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country of course many of them had

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battled against Mosley on the streets of

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Britain and they were determined that in

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Spain they would draw the line and

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fascism would would get no further most

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of them I think knew very little about

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Spain when they left they were looking

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they they knew more about Britain and

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Germany and Italy so when they went

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there they had very very little Spanish

351
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they didn't really understand what to

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they didn't know what to expect in many

353
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ways and what they found was a brutal

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Civil War in which the General Franco's

355
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forces were being as you said in your

356
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introduction supplied with huge amounts

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of arms and material from the fascists

358
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around the world and they had a very

359
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hard time in Spain I think there's no

360
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way you can get around there of the 2

361
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and a half thousand from from the

362
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British ARS that went to Spain over a

363
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fifth of them were killed and very few

364
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of them left Spain without some form of

365
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injury interesting the uh class point

366
00:15:56,199 --> 00:16:02,160
that you make because in so far as it's

367
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remembered today uh often times it's

368
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:08,959
thought that uh because famous authors

369
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like George Orwell poets like John kford

370
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and other people from the intellectual

371
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circles uh did go to Spain it's imagined

372
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that it was an army of writers and Poets

373
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but it was mainly Miners and boiler

374
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,880
makers and shipyard workers yeah exactly

375
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so but that's that's in a way that's as

376
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you expect because the middle class

377
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volunteers were the ones in the main who

378
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,519
wrote the who wrote the Memoirs who

379
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:35,240
wrote the books and middle class people

380
00:16:32,519 --> 00:16:40,440
talk about their you their own kind

381
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The Narrative now uh has in my view uh

382
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:46,480
been defamed essentially what ought to

383
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:50,040
be hiled and I still heal it as the

384
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:53,560
left's finest Hour uh has become

385
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:56,959
poisoned really by uh twin

386
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:59,720
attacks uh although with one source uh

387
00:16:56,959 --> 00:17:03,440
the Liberals people like Christopher

388
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:05,160
Hitchens and others uh attack the

389
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:09,240
international Brigade and attack the

390
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:12,240
Spanish Civil War as being some kind of

391
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:14,480
communist and Soviet uh crime against

392
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,720
the people of Spain when I believe the

393
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,520
opposite is true and then there's the

394
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:22,640
classic standard trotskyite narrative

395
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:25,199
that argues that if only the Soviet

396
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,839
Union the Dead Hand of the Communists

397
00:17:25,199 --> 00:17:29,760
had not been on the struggle it could

398
00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:33,160
have been won what do you say about that

399
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:35,880
well I I don't agree with that I think

400
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:38,200
that without the Soviet Union uh the

401
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,600
Spanish would Republic would have been

402
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,840
defeated much earlier than it was now

403
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,720
Stalin may have had his own reasons for

404
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,280
supporting Spain and they may not all

405
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,600
have been about uh uh standing up for

406
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,320
democracy but nevertheless there's no

407
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,320
doubting that without the huge amounts

408
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,440
of material uh with the the organization

409
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,120
of the international brigades themselves

410
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,840
it's it's quite likely that that that

411
00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:04,440
the Republic would have de been defeated

412
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:06,280
in 1936 let alone 1939 so now I I don't

413
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,760
buy with that hypothesis at all the

414
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:11,159
international brigades were not they

415
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,159
were not sent there to suppress other

416
00:18:11,159 --> 00:18:15,000
parts of the left there were elements

417
00:18:13,159 --> 00:18:17,360
that were involved in that in inter n

418
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,000
sign struggle it is true but the most of

419
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,280
the the people that I've talked to who

420
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,320
went to Spain from the international

421
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,440
brigades spent most of their time

422
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,440
fighting in the trenches around Madrid

423
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,840
or in in Madrid or in the in the

424
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,559
mountains of Aragon they had they had

425
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,080
little time to be doing anything else

426
00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:35,240
but but apart from trying to save their

427
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:37,480
own lives to be honest un unusually

428
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:40,360
Spain had a very large Anarchist

429
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:43,000
movement uh which of course was in the

430
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:45,799
war and fighting the fascists but as the

431
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:48,600
name suggests anarchists are quite

432
00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:52,919
difficult to organize certainly

433
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:56,039
difficult to uh unite uh with uh others

434
00:18:52,919 --> 00:18:58,240
how much was that dichotomy uh

435
00:18:56,039 --> 00:18:59,720
responsible for the failure of the

436
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,400
defense the

437
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,559
Republic it obviously played a part but

438
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,280
I think I think it is overplayed I mean

439
00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:08,600
to be the to be fair to the anchus you

440
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,919
couldn't really expect them to support a

441
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,000
a Social Democratic Republic and a a

442
00:19:10,919 --> 00:19:14,280
centralized government that's not that

443
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,360
that that's not that what they believe

444
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,799
in and they supported the government in

445
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:20,600
1936 mainly because they'd given an they

446
00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:23,200
were given an amnesty in the election

447
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,760
but also because they realized that that

448
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,640
uh the that the P the coup was directed

449
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,080
as them at them just as it was directed

450
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,960
at everybody else but I think what

451
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,240
really counts the reason the Spanish

452
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,240
Republic lost was not because of the the

453
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,200
problems and the arguments in the left

454
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,480
it was the fact that there were 880,000

455
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,280
Italians in Spain there were 20,000

456
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,280
Germans there were 75,000 Moroccans and

457
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,280
with everything that came with them that

458
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,880
to my mind is the crucial problem that

459
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,440
the Spanish Republic

460
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:55,240
FC I know those numbers 880,000 Italians

461
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:58,000
yeah essentially essentially Italy was

462
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,919
at war with the Spanish Republic and the

463
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,760
Western Government governments not only

464
00:19:59,919 --> 00:20:04,039
did nothing but actually imposed an arms

465
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,600
embargo as Joseph said in the

466
00:20:04,039 --> 00:20:08,000
introduction sure well the Western

467
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,159
governments were more they were looking

468
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:13,080
to appease the dictators the last thing

469
00:20:10,159 --> 00:20:15,760
they wanted was for the Spanish conflict

470
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,720
to expand into into Europe so they did

471
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,640
pretty much everything they could in

472
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,159
their opinion to try and limit it to

473
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,919
Spain if they could sacrifice Spain so

474
00:20:22,159 --> 00:20:25,480
that it would be wider peace in Europe

475
00:20:23,919 --> 00:20:27,360
than they were prepared to do so if

476
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:30,280
fascism had been confronted by the

477
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:33,640
Western democracies in Spain in

478
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,960
1936 1939 and the second world war might

479
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,480
not have happened what do you think of

480
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,720
that thesis I tend as you probably would

481
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,640
know historians hate those kind of count

482
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,919
counterfactual speculations because we

483
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,600
spend all our time trying to work out

484
00:20:42,919 --> 00:20:46,640
what did rather than didn't but I think

485
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,840
it's a difficult point to argue against

486
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,880
you know if the dictate if if Britain

487
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,679
and France had stood up to the dictators

488
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,000
earlier I think the likelihood is that

489
00:20:53,679 --> 00:20:57,400
the situation would have been very

490
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,039
different yes doctor obviously I think

491
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,120
the wider public at the moment in this

492
00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:02,600
Century had been very disheartened by

493
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:04,080
the loss of life in the Middle East but

494
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,280
obviously I've heard reports that in the

495
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:09,919
Spanish Civil War there was some 500,000

496
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,360
people murdered or uh in fatally injured

497
00:21:09,919 --> 00:21:13,919
um it's it's unimaginable isn't it a

498
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:16,200
mass loss of life there was a huge loss

499
00:21:13,919 --> 00:21:19,200
of life and it should be remembered it's

500
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,799
it's often forgotten but people were

501
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,440
being killed and continuing to be killed

502
00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:25,200
after the Spanish Civil War because

503
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,559
after the Spanish Civil War there was a

504
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,840
dictatorship in Spain which lasted until

505
00:21:27,559 --> 00:21:33,400
November 196 75 and people were still

506
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,880
being garotted not that long before the

507
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:38,120
end of the dictatorship so it is a yes

508
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,760
it's a it's a terrible tragedy and

509
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,880
thousands and thousands of people lost

510
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:44,679
their lives lost their livelihood were

511
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,360
imprisoned went into Exile yes it is it

512
00:21:44,679 --> 00:21:49,480
is as one book called it the Spanish

513
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:52,320
tragedy in my uh first labor Party

514
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:55,120
Conference in Blackpool in

515
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:58,640
1974 the then prime minister Harold

516
00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:01,480
Wilson made a public appeal to stop the

517
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:04,799
the rotting of three Spanish political

518
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:08,360
prisoners in 1974 I know an appeal which

519
00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:13,279
failed and they were I think the last uh

520
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:17,360
GED hideous form of execution uh by the

521
00:22:13,279 --> 00:22:19,520
dictatorship how has Spain fared since

522
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:23,840
the passing of

523
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:26,080
Franco well uh there was in some in many

524
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:29,919
respects the transition from the

525
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:31,799
dictatorship to democracy was remarkably

526
00:22:29,919 --> 00:22:34,039
peaceful I think most commentators

527
00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:36,559
expected there to be Bloodshed of some

528
00:22:34,039 --> 00:22:38,080
form but there was an agreement in Spain

529
00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:40,039
that there would essentially be a Packa

530
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,360
of forgetfulness and people needed to

531
00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:44,559
move on and put the paast behind them

532
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:46,919
and that really uh that really lasted

533
00:22:44,559 --> 00:22:49,279
for perhaps a generation or maybe two

534
00:22:46,919 --> 00:22:52,120
generations but now it's starting to

535
00:22:49,279 --> 00:22:53,520
break down while the children of the of

536
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:56,279
the people who fought in the Spanish

537
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,840
Civil War were were willing to to

538
00:22:56,279 --> 00:23:00,919
maintain that pact the grandchildren are

539
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,840
less willing and they want to know what

540
00:23:00,919 --> 00:23:04,679
happened to their grandparents so

541
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,960
there's an increasing desire within

542
00:23:04,679 --> 00:23:08,799
Spain to find out about what happened

543
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,679
and to relearn the history because of

544
00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:12,320
course under the dictatorship the

545
00:23:10,679 --> 00:23:14,520
history that they were taught was

546
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,559
Franco's Vision version of of events

547
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:20,760
which is very different from everybody

548
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:23,080
else's now Spain is of course facing

549
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,080
difficulties of M mainly economic but

550
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,200
Spain is is in a difficult place they

551
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:30,240
have huge problems with corruption

552
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,039
they're financially deep trouble so it's

553
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,640
very difficult to work out what's what

554
00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:36,720
the future of Spain will be but this

555
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,799
chapter uh that is wonderfully brought

556
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:43,480
to life again in your book uh unlikely

557
00:23:39,799 --> 00:23:46,039
Warriors is uh almost without comparison

558
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:49,000
we're talking about a battle in which

559
00:23:46,039 --> 00:23:53,039
Heming way and Jack Jones and George

560
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:55,039
Orwell and even Mr Atley uh briefly

561
00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:57,880
Clement Atley the labor prime minister

562
00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:59,000
after the second world war and T scores

563
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,880
of thousands

564
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:05,640
of ordinary workers uh who left their

565
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:08,520
unemployment queue mainly in the 1930s

566
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:11,159
some of them their jobs uh to go and

567
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,520
fight uh in a country of which they knew

568
00:24:11,159 --> 00:24:16,940
little but for a cause that was dear to

569
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:18,520
them Dr Richard baxel thanks very much

570
00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:21,039
[Music]

571
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,039
indeed and now it's your turn to tell us

572
00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:25,159
what you think through the portals of

573
00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:27,360
social media what's rattling Joseph well

574
00:24:25,159 --> 00:24:30,159
on the subject of the mafia a great one

575
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:31,960
here from Gordon hor po um there is a

576
00:24:30,159 --> 00:24:33,600
few I would like to see swimming with

577
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,000
the fish and on the Spanish Civil War

578
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,399
mwat says by comparison ocidental

579
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,080
people's today equal very weak spirited

580
00:24:38,399 --> 00:24:41,480
largely due to Decades of conditioning

581
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,000
inconformity and a bit of a

582
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,120
controversial one from Amy Wy she says

583
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,480
if Tories were in power in the 1930s

584
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:49,320
they would probably ban people from

585
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,360
fighting for communism and socialism in

586
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,159
Spain I would say that a direct

587
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:56,440
comparison is people traveling to Syria

588
00:24:53,159 --> 00:24:58,480
for Jihad but that seems to be illegal

589
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,520
well illegal and wrong uh the

590
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,120
International Brigade were going to

591
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,880
fight for a good thing in Spain the

592
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:08,520
people that are going to Syria are going

593
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:12,320
to fight for a bad thing I think one of

594
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,919
the uh reasons why uh it might be more

595
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:17,200
difficult to have such an international

596
00:25:13,919 --> 00:25:19,360
Brigade today is that people know all

597
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,520
too much about War and what happens

598
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:24,399
there now bear in mind in

599
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,320
1936 nobody even had a television so

600
00:25:24,399 --> 00:25:30,039
these people were going to a Spain they

601
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:32,760
knew little about um were being in uh

602
00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:35,559
thrown into the front line of a very

603
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,159
bloody and brutal uh Civil War anymore

604
00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:39,799
or is that us that's all we got time for

605
00:25:37,159 --> 00:25:42,360
this week but follow us on Twitter it's

606
00:25:39,799 --> 00:25:44,279
rtor Sputnik or check us out on Facebook

607
00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:46,159
it's Sputnik on Russia today it's

608
00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:50,800
goodbye from me Joseph hayatt and from

609
00:25:46,159 --> 00:25:57,559
me George Galloway it's been marvelous

610
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:57,559
[Music]

611
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:11,910
oh

612
00:26:00,350 --> 00:26:11,910
[Music]