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hey

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welcome to sputnik orbiting the world

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with me george galloway and me joseph

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hyatt standing in for gayatri the world

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has been transfixed by the tsunami of

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violence unleashed over the last few

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weeks in the tiny gaza strip where

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almost 2 million people are trapped in

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one of the most densely populated places

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in the world

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gaza long under siege is now utterly

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invaded thousands of people most of them

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civilians many of them women and

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children have been slain or maimed

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hospitals are collapsing literally under

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shell fire un schools six of them have

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been bombarded from land sea and air

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with the loss of scores of children

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little noticed in this blizzard of shot

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and shell has been the equally

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disastrous contemporaneous collapse of

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libya the state appears to have

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disintegrated warring militias laying

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waste to the country oil tankers on fire

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in the capital the death toll

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incalculable to date and it's getting

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worse helping us make a sense of it all

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is leading journalist hafzah kara

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mustafa who's reported and analyzed for

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most of the world's top outfits in

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recent years hafsah let's start with the

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with gaza

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what would have to happen

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for the world to tell israel to stop

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after all

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six united nations schools have now been

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bombarded scores maybe hundreds of

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children have been killed and maimed in

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those schools

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the un secretary general has said

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there can be nothing more shameful than

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killing sleeping children

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the united nations top official in gaza

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is weeping on camera governments all

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over the world are lamely calling for a

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ceasefire israel is bulldozing on

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regardless what's going to happen

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nothing because israel is never punished

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for anything it does it actually has the

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green light in fact from the

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international community to continue

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doing what it's doing it's had a pat on

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the back from all the leading

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international leaders and therefore it

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feels it can continue shamelessly

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despite all the images despite all the

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the devastation that we're witnessing so

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really as long as there's no absolutely

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no pressure from any of the leading

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supposedly democrat democracies of the

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world then there's no reason for israel

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to stop it will continue it has in its

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site the extermination of the

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palestinian people and it's doing it

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with total impunity well i'll come back

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to that point in a minute but within

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three hours of

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obama making the strongest condemnation

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of the massacre in the un school

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he agreed to resupply

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israel with the very ammunition which

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had just destroyed the u.n school

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what's the us

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double face on this and this is this is

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when the word hutzba comes into place

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because this is utterly ridiculous and

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shameful i don't know i i'm falling i'm

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running out of adjectives to really

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describe the policy of america at the

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moment but the bbc when i was on my way

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in here for this interview is still

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repeating

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the utterly absurd adage that this

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operation is to destroy tunnels

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the worst aspect of the bbc reporting is

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that the more criticism is faced and

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there have been protests outside the hq

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and still it's going along that line

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which is to actually show the israeli

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line of thinking that they're doing this

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in reaction to hamas there is almost no

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explanation that whatever hamas is doing

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and it's almost farcical what they're

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doing it's in reaction to the occupation

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and the devastation and the the

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suffering of the palestinian people for

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the past seven years now this idea of

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tunnels is is again the joke of the

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story we know that israel burst some of

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the most sophisticated weaponry and

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technology across the region and in fact

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in the world so they had all the

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capabilities to know and to pinpoint

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these tunnels ages ago without actually

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having to go in and shell and flatten

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the entire gauze so this is just another

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excuse for israel to continue now tell

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us uh

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moving to the maghreb

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about the situation in libya i mentioned

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in the introduction

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that whilst all this is happening and of

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course big conflicts in ukraine and

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other big international stories libya

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is falling apart how

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and why

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falling apart is almost i mean now it's

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a given we would would be tempted to say

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that libya is in the midst of a civil

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war but that was almost six months after

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the ousting of gaddafi libya is today a

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failed state it's run by warring

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militias it's been heavily armed in the

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ark during the the so-called revolution

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which is ultimately a regime change

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operation led by nato um qatar provided

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an in our inundated libya with arms what

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happens today libya is a problem made up

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of essentially very youthful populations

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majority of people are under the age of

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30 heavily armed all which have no

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no wish to to run a a well-structured

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country they're just running riot and

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each to their own and it's it's not a

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it's a failed state it's the new somalia

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of africa what are these militias

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fighting about

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uh

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it's not even regionalism it's not like

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the east and the west of the country are

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fighting to separate themselves off from

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libya that would at least have some

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logic however

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bizarre and uh reprehensible

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but it's just militias fighting for

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power isn't it and wealth i mean just

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just to come back on one thing had we

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not had the example of iraq in 2003 we

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could at least be surprised but we now

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know for a fact that bombing supposedly

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bombing countries into democracy doesn't

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work so what is happening today was

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entirely predictable from day one the

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minute western nations led by david

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cameron and sarkozy voted went to the

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u.n for supposedly a um

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which turned into regime change

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we knew very well that this would happen

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this is what happened when you bomb a

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country when there is a power vacuum and

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especially a country that was held

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together really very much by gaddafi and

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by his sort of sense of keeping the the

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tribal areas in check this was

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inevitable what the warring militias are

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fighting about is is everything and

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nothing they're just heavily armed kids

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doing running riot and above on top of

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the arms that were supplied by qatar we

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also have the arsenal the the national

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arsenal that was accumulated in 40 years

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by gaddafi that is now in the hands of

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all sorts of warring militias and terror

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groups that are running right across

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libya and also across the sahel belt

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is it going to spill over

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i'm asking myself

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why should it be isolated to

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libya

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there

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must be a message going out to other

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potential

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so-called jihadis

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that uh if you can get your hands on the

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hardware

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and get yourself a foreign patron

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you could actually carve yourself out a

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bit of power and wealth and it's

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happened already it happened in mali

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when there was the overtake of by

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al-qaeda and the maghreb in the azawad

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region that was a direct consequence of

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the arms that were flowing in from from

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libya

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you know at the time under gaddafi that

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region which was slightly internal and

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there were you know aspirations of

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independence from certain parts were

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kept in check but with the the influx of

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arms flooding into the region loads of

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various different terror groups got hold

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of arms and did what they did and the

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hostage taking in algeria and the gas

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bond of algeria last january in january

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2013 was very much a consequence of that

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here we had a group that was that barely

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had any arms suddenly found themselves

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possessing the most sophisticated

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weaponry that just flooded in and hence

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we saw the hostage the major hostage

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crisis in algeria and obviously what

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does seem to be happening in the

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background is i've had a lot of qatari

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real estate companies and all the arms

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of the developing qatari nation with its

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wealth

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are somehow getting in behind the scenes

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into to libya and there seems to be a

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lot of

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land and areas being occupied almost

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secretly awaiting the outcome of this

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conflict i think that was the original

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idea very early on but because the

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situation uh disintegrated almost

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immediately and i think they've just

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taken a step back i mean as far as

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they're concerned they funded this it

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was almost a joke to them it was there

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was a personal animosity between the

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shaykh of qatar and gaddafi he got his

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own back on qadhafi and we saw the you

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know the ignominious death of of the

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leader of the libyan leader so he got

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his back he got his back on on qaddafi

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and now really it's irrelevant what

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they've invested they've invested in in

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war they've had their war and now the

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rest is is on hold on well they've lost

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it now i mean whatever if their idea was

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an investment it's one that's gone bad

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it would have to be written off in

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accountancy terms uh oil production in

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libya is now a fraction of its capacity

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as i said in the introduction the oil

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storage tanks are actually on fire right

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now in tripoli the capital

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and the

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country doesn't look like it's going to

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be governable in the next 30 years so

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they'd have to wait a long time for a

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return on that investment i don't think

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their main objective was in any any way

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investment anyway but just came back to

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touching back on the oil companies the

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oil companies make a profit either way

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you know if the output is reduced then

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the price goes up on the international

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market

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if there are more if there's more output

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then they're selling more because other

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countries that don't produce stock up

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when the prices go down so either way

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the all companies make a killing out of

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this story you know ultimately it's

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libya that's lost in the libyan people

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who've lost out that's really it but

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there can be virtually no foreign

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presence now in libya all the embassies

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have closed except the british and the

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italian i'm not sure

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why they are continuing but everyone

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else has gone it's not safe for anyone

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the airport is inoperable indeed is one

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of the major sites of the fighting so no

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one can fly in or out

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the u.s

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ambassador was murdered by the very

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people the united states put in power

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the al-qaeda elements in in benghazi

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uh

281
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is anybody making any money out of libya

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absolutely the security companies that

283
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are going to come in i mean as i said

284
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the parallel with iraq is very obvious

285
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and there are two major sectors that

286
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have thrived uh in the invasion of iraq

287
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to the security companies and the oil

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companies now you know move over to

289
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libya and in order to ensure the output

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future output of oil then that's going

291
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to come into the hands of these major

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security companies that are incredibly

293
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successful and and make all their money

294
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from chaos essentially in the arab world

295
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and of course in africa and libya is

296
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arab and african so it's it really is

297
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they're their ultimate goal and the

298
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ultimate dream

299
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:26,000
well i mean as nato success stories go

300
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libya has to be the nadir

301
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,800
at least so far hafsah you're a star

302
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we'll have you back on the sputnik

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before long thank you very much indeed

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coming up after the break we'll be

305
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,959
discussing the state of human rights ha

306
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throughout the middle east and the

307
00:11:38,959 --> 00:11:44,160
different approach western governments

308
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and media take to case studies like say

309
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:51,360
syria and bahrain saudi arabia and egypt

310
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don't miss it

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welcome back to sputnik it seems almost

312
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,480
fanciful indulgence to be discussing

313
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human rights in today's middle east

314
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where an entire people's very existence

315
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,839
is under threat where dictatorship

316
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:12,480
usually western-backed has its boot on

317
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the throat of almost all of their people

318
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but that in a way is precisely why we

319
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must discuss it after all it is the

320
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,360
so-called moral authority of democracy

321
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the rule of law and human rights which

322
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western countries perpetually draw upon

323
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when justifying their policies towards

324
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the rest of the world which often

325
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includes invading and occupying it rory

326
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donahue is a journalist who has a long

327
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track record of working in the region on

328
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subjects as diverse as the united arab

329
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,560
emirates and all the way to gaza and

330
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,959
beyond and i'm glad to say rory joins us

331
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now now let's start at the gulf

332
00:12:44,959 --> 00:12:48,959
if we may

333
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,279
you and i

334
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both have our difficulties with some of

335
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the governments there

336
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:58,880
in your case because you cast a critical

337
00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:00,480
eye an objective journalistic and

338
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,399
analytical eye

339
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,519
on one of the governments in the gulf

340
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this is uh par for the course isn't it

341
00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:10,800
if you look too closely into the arab

342
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,200
gulf dictatorships or authoritarian

343
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,920
regimes well you probably won't get back

344
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,680
in

345
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,200
yeah i think the gulf monarchies have a

346
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:18,639
long history of not tolerating any

347
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,200
descent whether it's from their own

348
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citizens or external voices

349
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,480
and a large part of this is through the

350
00:13:22,959 --> 00:13:25,920
fact they don't want to open up a

351
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,240
political space to allow people to be

352
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,360
involved in the governance process and

353
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,279
that's the that's the history of

354
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,120
monarchy really not just in the gulf but

355
00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:35,120
but elsewhere

356
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and there is very little to say that

357
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,199
there's been any opening up

358
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in the gulf states although

359
00:13:39,199 --> 00:13:42,639
cities like abu dhabi and dubai now

360
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,800
enjoy global appeal

361
00:13:42,639 --> 00:13:46,000
it's superficial i think

362
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,680
yes and

363
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:51,519
of course the west is best friends with

364
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:53,839
these monarchies

365
00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:55,440
for all the talk of the need for human

366
00:13:53,839 --> 00:13:58,560
rights and the rule of law in a place

367
00:13:55,440 --> 00:14:00,639
like syria for example the west seems to

368
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:02,399
have very few difficulties dealing with

369
00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:05,279
the most authoritarian

370
00:14:02,399 --> 00:14:06,800
regimes in the gulf is that all just

371
00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:08,240
about money

372
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,519
i think that

373
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,120
it's very difficult to view what the

374
00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:12,079
west does in the middle east and the

375
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,240
gulf

376
00:14:12,079 --> 00:14:16,079
on a principled level they clearly use

377
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,760
language that suits their needs whenever

378
00:14:16,079 --> 00:14:21,279
that may be if it's human rights

379
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:23,120
discourse or it's stability or it's

380
00:14:21,279 --> 00:14:25,360
anything they choose to to get what they

381
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,120
want and more often than not obviously

382
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,760
securing these interests involves oil

383
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:32,800
contracts and arms deals and

384
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:34,880
and such stability only matters when the

385
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,399
interests are being met in the west and

386
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,720
so that discourse can be quickly

387
00:14:36,399 --> 00:14:40,480
abandoned for something else when they

388
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,079
feel that there's a chance to further

389
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,160
their interests or if someone is maybe

390
00:14:42,079 --> 00:14:45,760
not quite playing ball when it comes to

391
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,399
securing those

392
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,720
contracts money whatever it may be so i

393
00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:52,880
think that you can view any language

394
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,720
used in the west by politicians as

395
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,800
disposable

396
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,240
and it's very rarely if ever used on a

397
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,880
principled level i don't think this can

398
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:03,839
be tell me about bahrain this is

399
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:06,079
one of the longest running revolutions

400
00:15:03,839 --> 00:15:08,240
in the current middle east as a

401
00:15:06,079 --> 00:15:10,560
proportion of their tiny population a

402
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:13,839
very large number of people have been

403
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:16,160
killed wounded tortured imprisoned

404
00:15:13,839 --> 00:15:18,000
yet that never makes on to the news

405
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,399
either in the arab world

406
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,079
or in the west why

407
00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:23,360
i think that a lot of people would say

408
00:15:22,079 --> 00:15:25,680
that it's got something to do with the

409
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,199
us basing their fifth fleet on the

410
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,279
strategically important island in

411
00:15:27,199 --> 00:15:31,040
between iran and

412
00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:33,199
saudi arabia

413
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,600
that's certainly the case i think in in

414
00:15:33,199 --> 00:15:37,199
terms of the american policy with

415
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,800
britain britain has a long history of

416
00:15:37,199 --> 00:15:40,560
course with bahrain and continues to be

417
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,240
its closest friends we have a vested

418
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,480
interest and very long close

419
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,240
relationship with the sunni monarchy

420
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,480
and this flies in the face of a sheer

421
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,120
majority who have been revolting now

422
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,040
since february 2011 and appear no closer

423
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,320
to achieving their goal and in large

424
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,959
part i think that is down to the

425
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:59,440
diplomatic support provided by bahrain's

426
00:15:56,959 --> 00:16:01,360
allies principally the uk and america

427
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:04,240
and of course across the causeway saudi

428
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,079
arabia what's the current scorecard of

429
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,199
human rights in our very best friend in

430
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:10,800
the region i think saudi arabia has

431
00:16:09,199 --> 00:16:12,800
one of the most

432
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,720
deplorable human rights records not only

433
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,440
in the region if not if not the world i

434
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,880
mean

435
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,800
their

436
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,680
toleration of dissents

437
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,360
is really concerning and their new

438
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,920
terrorism laws this year have been used

439
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,920
to prosecute human rights lawyers and

440
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,399
they tolerate very little

441
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,920
open debates in saudi arabia and

442
00:16:30,399 --> 00:16:33,040
obviously it goes beyond that being the

443
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,240
only country in the world that doesn't

444
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:38,480
allow women to drive and it also meddles

445
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,720
in in other places as well including

446
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:43,519
bahrain where obviously they they sent

447
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,040
in the troops in 2011 to break up

448
00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:47,279
protests at the roundabout which

449
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,199
resulted in scores of deaths among uh

450
00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:50,399
protesters but aside from the politics

451
00:16:49,199 --> 00:16:51,920
what about the human rights of

452
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:53,519
individuals and the citizens across this

453
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,759
region i mean there was a story this

454
00:16:53,519 --> 00:16:57,560
week i read of you know a saudi arabian

455
00:16:55,759 --> 00:17:00,720
man being sentenced to three years and

456
00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,560
450 lashes uh for meeting men through

457
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,839
twitter you know you hear heinous things

458
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,120
that happen to these individuals you

459
00:17:03,839 --> 00:17:06,720
know what about their personal rights

460
00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:08,480
their human rights

461
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,600
well they don't have any in saudi arabia

462
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,360
for instance where obviously

463
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,120
homosexuality is not tolerated in a

464
00:17:11,360 --> 00:17:14,959
country where you don't tolerate any

465
00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:16,160
criticism they're not likely to be very

466
00:17:14,959 --> 00:17:19,120
open on their

467
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:21,039
sexuality laws but why is there no fuss

468
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:23,520
about this what why don't wander

469
00:17:21,039 --> 00:17:25,760
campaigns boycott demands and so on

470
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,199
where are the the pink campaigners who

471
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,840
are always uh

472
00:17:27,199 --> 00:17:31,520
after russia for example where no such

473
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,679
thing could ever happen i think the the

474
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,520
people who campaign on gay rights are

475
00:17:33,679 --> 00:17:36,640
likely trying to make this cause but it

476
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,559
doesn't get into the mainstream

477
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,880
discourse because of our very close ties

478
00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:44,160
with saudi arabia now no

479
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:47,360
tour de horizon of human rights would be

480
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,919
complete without talking about palestine

481
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:52,960
which is the country existentially

482
00:17:49,919 --> 00:17:55,039
threatened its very existence the people

483
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,360
country long ago was wiped off the map

484
00:17:55,039 --> 00:17:59,039
but the people are actually threatened

485
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:01,600
now especially in

486
00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:03,919
in gaza

487
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:06,880
what's though the situation

488
00:18:03,919 --> 00:18:11,200
in the west bank where you have

489
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:14,320
ostensibly a palestinian authority

490
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:16,400
how are they doing on human rights

491
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,919
well not very well

492
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,840
and i think that

493
00:18:17,919 --> 00:18:21,520
in the west bank the palestinian

494
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,600
authority in recent weeks when there's

495
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,600
been mass protests from nablus to

496
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,280
ramallah and hebron

497
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,280
they've been involved in shooting at

498
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,799
protesters themselves and a lot of

499
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,559
palestinians certainly view the

500
00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:34,559
authority as being

501
00:18:32,559 --> 00:18:36,240
acting on israel and america's behalf

502
00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:37,600
perhaps because of the funding and

503
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,520
perhaps because of the actions that

504
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,960
they've they've done

505
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,799
scores of palestinians have died in the

506
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,840
west bank in in recent weeks since the

507
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:45,600
gaza

508
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,080
offensive started

509
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,679
killed not only by by israelis but also

510
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,080
with the willing complicity of the

511
00:18:49,679 --> 00:18:53,679
palestinian authority abbas is running

512
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,520
around the region

513
00:18:53,679 --> 00:18:57,360
seemingly in a desperate fashion to try

514
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,320
and reclaim some relevance in all of

515
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,559
this

516
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,640
and i think also it has to be said that

517
00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:05,679
following the 2006 free and fair

518
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,360
election in the palestinian authority

519
00:19:05,679 --> 00:19:10,240
uh hamas won

520
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:12,720
and only rebel were to take power in

521
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,000
gaza forcibly from fatah so the

522
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,400
palestinian authorities certainly don't

523
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,080
have a mandate in in terms of uh

524
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,520
representing the palestinian people and

525
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,320
i think it's an urgent need for

526
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:24,880
elections to be held so people can voice

527
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,400
their concerns well to paraphrase henry

528
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,320
kissinger which is the first time i've

529
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,840
ever done that it's a pity they both

530
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,160
can't lose

531
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,960
hamas and fatah

532
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:38,320
have both seen their support fall

533
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:41,200
markedly ironically this is really

534
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,640
invasion of gaza

535
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,880
which is

536
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,919
allowing the palestinian resistance to

537
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:50,000
get to grips face to face on the ground

538
00:19:47,919 --> 00:19:52,720
and taking quite a toll actually on the

539
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,600
invading forces it's probably done

540
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,919
hamas quite a bit of good electorally

541
00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,080
yeah i i think that if you just look at

542
00:19:57,919 --> 00:20:02,880
the protests in the west bank there have

543
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,280
been green hamas flags flying in nearly

544
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,679
all of them and in quite high numbers

545
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,600
and within gaza itself prior to this as

546
00:20:07,679 --> 00:20:11,360
you rightly said support for hamas had

547
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,520
fallen quite dramatically they weren't

548
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:15,760
governing very well the people weren't

549
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,360
their lives was appalling it's not

550
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,679
necessarily just hamas's fault i mean

551
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:21,760
the eight-year-long siege has obviously

552
00:20:19,679 --> 00:20:23,360
changing things there but this offensive

553
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:26,000
certainly has

554
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:27,520
markedly increased the support for hamas

555
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,880
whether this lasts for the long term is

556
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,000
obviously

557
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,799
unclear

558
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,640
the

559
00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:36,000
catastrophe that's now

560
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:38,240
unfolding in gaza

561
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:42,000
it's all it's approaching operation

562
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:44,960
cast-led levels of deaths

563
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,440
and i think has maybe surpassed cass-led

564
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:50,799
for wounded already

565
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:53,039
atrocities like the bombing of

566
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:54,960
united nations schools and the

567
00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:56,640
destruction of the lives of scores of

568
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,280
people in them

569
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,600
provoking the normally comatose united

570
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,840
nations even to

571
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,200
raise a whimper of

572
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,039
protest

573
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:11,360
how can we talk about human rights when

574
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:12,640
there's actually an extermination going

575
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:14,400
on

576
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,919
i think it's difficult to talk in a

577
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,360
traditional human rights discourse when

578
00:21:15,919 --> 00:21:20,159
it comes to what's happening in gaza

579
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:21,440
because it does go beyond that it it

580
00:21:20,159 --> 00:21:23,039
goes to the

581
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,760
to the very heart of the palestinian

582
00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:27,919
issue which is the the the seemingly uh

583
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,960
intent of israel to remove palestinians

584
00:21:27,919 --> 00:21:31,200
from from the land that they've

585
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,440
inhabited for from millennia

586
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,760
um i also think that when you know the

587
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,440
situation is terrible when like today

588
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,600
you have the british newspaper the daily

589
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,799
meal issuing an editorial questioning

590
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,640
israel's actions in gaza i think that

591
00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:46,880
it's got to that point now where where

592
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,360
everyone is questioning what's going on

593
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,120
what's happened in gaza is is shocking

594
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,720
to the whole world

595
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:55,840
not only u.n facilities have been

596
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:57,280
attacked but a disabled charity uh you

597
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,039
know people have been killed i was

598
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,799
supposed to shift hospital hospitals

599
00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:01,760
have been regularly yeah

600
00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:03,919
um

601
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,480
and i was speaking the other day to uh

602
00:22:03,919 --> 00:22:08,159
hassan al-halak he's uh his family was

603
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,320
born last week he was the gaza scholar

604
00:22:08,159 --> 00:22:12,559
oxford brooks last year his house was

605
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,320
bombed his wife pregnant wife was killed

606
00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:16,159
his two little boys his mother and his

607
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,840
sister he has got first degree burns

608
00:22:16,159 --> 00:22:20,000
over most of his body

609
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,600
i'm not sure that this can be in any way

610
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,120
justified it certainly doesn't fit into

611
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,120
the terrorist narrative that israel

612
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:27,280
tells us because hassan was a bright

613
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:29,039
young spark and is working at the bank

614
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,960
of palestine and has been celebrated in

615
00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:33,120
the west academically and his life is

616
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,400
now torn apart a ceasefire or enter the

617
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:36,480
occupation will not repair what's

618
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,159
happened to that young man

619
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,559
can i get just one

620
00:22:38,159 --> 00:22:43,440
last quick answer from you i'd like to

621
00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:45,600
tour this horizon with you all day

622
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,640
uh egypt

623
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,559
we're

624
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,720
not we're now in a situation where tony

625
00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:51,840
blair and the western governments are

626
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,520
hailing

627
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:57,919
the military junta of general sisi

628
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,440
yet human rights in egypt are arguably

629
00:22:57,919 --> 00:23:02,640
next to gaza

630
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,640
the very worst of all

631
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,559
that's certainly the case i mean

632
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,799
an egyptian monitoring group wiki thrawa

633
00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:10,960
say that there's been over 40 000 people

634
00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:12,640
jailed for political reasons since the

635
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,000
military coup last year what a year and

636
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,640
a half yeah

637
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,559
well just over a year just over a year

638
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,480
100 sentenced to death whether this will

639
00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:21,520
be carried out or not it isn't clear but

640
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,799
it doesn't really matter because the

641
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,480
idea is to spread fear amongst the

642
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:26,720
population not to question what's going

643
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,960
on and what we can see now with gaza and

644
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,280
egypt is that egypt is certainly

645
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,200
part of a an alliance with israel i mean

646
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,600
i i think that there's been a lot of

647
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,440
anger at the egyptian ceasefire proposal

648
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,960
which many view is just being a tony

649
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,600
blair initiative facilitated by the

650
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,559
israelis and what's happened to egypt is

651
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,240
uh is terrifying for the kind of

652
00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:47,520
revolutionary forces in the region

653
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,240
because they are trying to rule back the

654
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,559
changes that we've seen since 2011.

655
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:56,000
rory donahue thank you very much for

656
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:56,000
joining us on the sputnik

657
00:23:57,279 --> 00:24:01,039
now it's your turn to tell us what you

658
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:03,600
think through the portals of social

659
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:05,760
media what's rattling joseph well on the

660
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,240
point of libya obviously being in chaos

661
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,240
uh mr frog says another example of

662
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,880
western arrogance that they know best

663
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,520
and their democracy brand must be

664
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,840
accepted it is absurd you know to say

665
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,600
that they've introduced democracy into

666
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,000
libya the prime minister has been

667
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,400
kidnapped gunmen take over the

668
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,559
parliament every other week

669
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,559
people have been assassinated the u.s

670
00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:32,080
ambassador and so on

671
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:34,000
some democracy show mistake terrible and

672
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,640
of course on the human rights offences

673
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,799
uh and the situation in gaza i see me

674
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,960
says will there be a stop to this how

675
00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:44,320
can the world allow this it's one month

676
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:46,159
of brutal murders and uh martin darius

677
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,240
says israel should be charged with

678
00:24:46,159 --> 00:24:49,840
committing war crimes well that's all

679
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,200
we've got time for this week sir but

680
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,520
don't forget you can contact us on

681
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,600
twitter it's rt underscore sputnik and

682
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,840
of course follow us on facebook sputnik

683
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,720
on russia today but from me joseph hyatt

684
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:04,039
it's goodbye and from me george galloway

685
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,039
it's been marvelous

686
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,320
foreign