1 00:00:35,260 --> 00:00:39,920 welcome to Sputnik with me George 2 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,320 Galloway and me Joseph hi it's standing 3 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,420 in for gaiety last week we would have 4 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,480 been celebrating the 60th birthday of 5 00:00:44,420 --> 00:00:50,150 the late and incomparable commandant a 6 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:53,059 hugo chavez instead we continue to mourn 7 00:00:50,150 --> 00:00:54,920 his loss kinley chavez when more 8 00:00:53,059 --> 00:00:57,260 elections are referenda in few years 9 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,970 than any political leader in history but 10 00:00:57,260 --> 00:01:00,920 that didn't stop us politicians and 11 00:00:58,970 --> 00:01:03,530 media routinely referring to him as a 12 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,780 dictator his success our president 13 00:01:03,530 --> 00:01:08,540 Nicolas Maduro has been carrying on the 14 00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:10,430 traditions of Chavez and also of winning 15 00:01:08,540 --> 00:01:12,800 elections but that hasn't stopped the 16 00:01:10,430 --> 00:01:15,080 onslaught from the land of the free home 17 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,810 of the brave the United States of 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,729 America and just like in the Ukraine 19 00:01:17,810 --> 00:01:21,680 that will be talking about later the 20 00:01:19,729 --> 00:01:24,410 u.s. just won't take yes for an answer 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,660 at least a yes from the Venezuelans 22 00:01:24,410 --> 00:01:29,180 joining us on board the Sputnik for the 23 00:01:26,660 --> 00:01:32,000 first time is his excellency Alvaro 24 00:01:29,180 --> 00:01:34,399 Sanchez the chargé d'affaires at the 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,770 Venezuelan embassy in London your 26 00:01:34,399 --> 00:01:39,979 excellency thanks for joining us a 27 00:01:36,770 --> 00:01:43,670 moment of reflection on the passing of 28 00:01:39,979 --> 00:01:46,549 the great chief commandant a hugo chavez 29 00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:50,270 would have been 60 years old this week 30 00:01:46,549 --> 00:01:53,150 it's a cruel a young age at which he was 31 00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:55,490 taken from us my wife and I worked in 32 00:01:53,150 --> 00:01:58,689 the last presidential election that he 33 00:01:55,490 --> 00:02:02,900 won handsomely he was a force of nature 34 00:01:58,689 --> 00:02:05,900 unstoppable except nature and and 35 00:02:02,900 --> 00:02:08,239 illness took him from us how are the 36 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:11,000 Venezuelans remembering who go Chavez 37 00:02:08,239 --> 00:02:12,500 this week yeah well first George thank 38 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,900 you very much for having me in such an 39 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:16,640 important occasion as you mentioned this 40 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:19,790 would have been the 60th anniversary of 41 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:21,920 President Chavez well the legacy of 42 00:02:19,790 --> 00:02:23,150 Chavez not only in Venezuela but 43 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:25,850 actually all throughout Latin America 44 00:02:23,150 --> 00:02:29,329 new in the world is very very visible 45 00:02:25,850 --> 00:02:33,019 this week for example we are currently 46 00:02:29,329 --> 00:02:36,200 celebrating or commemorating the third 47 00:02:33,019 --> 00:02:37,850 Congress of the PSUV the political party 48 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,860 that was a fun day was the idea of 49 00:02:37,850 --> 00:02:43,010 President Chavez to bring together 50 00:02:39,860 --> 00:02:45,070 different groups different trends or 51 00:02:43,010 --> 00:02:48,860 from the less progressive movements etc 52 00:02:45,070 --> 00:02:51,200 into one single political party and 53 00:02:48,860 --> 00:02:55,850 this week as a matter of fact we we had 54 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:59,030 Arthur Congress it it was evident the 55 00:02:55,850 --> 00:03:01,850 level of communication working together 56 00:02:59,030 --> 00:03:04,580 of all the people that are actually 57 00:03:01,850 --> 00:03:07,280 formed part of this organization this is 58 00:03:04,580 --> 00:03:09,950 a political party and not only that but 59 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:13,420 also a Brazilian Maduro himself said it 60 00:03:09,950 --> 00:03:17,270 in one of his addresses to the whole 61 00:03:13,420 --> 00:03:18,890 party that from here on the political 62 00:03:17,270 --> 00:03:21,830 party is going to actually participate 63 00:03:18,890 --> 00:03:26,060 more in the indie dealings of the actual 64 00:03:21,830 --> 00:03:30,610 government which is one of the legacies 65 00:03:26,060 --> 00:03:34,280 of President Chavez to have grassroots 66 00:03:30,610 --> 00:03:36,560 people actually operating and 67 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,780 participating fully in in government so 68 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,880 this is so it's not just a government of 69 00:03:38,780 --> 00:03:43,970 technocrats but it's a government 70 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:46,220 popularly base exactly exactly said you 71 00:03:43,970 --> 00:03:49,790 can tell that this is actually people's 72 00:03:46,220 --> 00:03:52,130 power and as I said our political 73 00:03:49,790 --> 00:03:54,920 tradition in Venezuela for many many 74 00:03:52,130 --> 00:03:57,310 years not only the live the years prior 75 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,750 to the election of our Chavez in 1998 76 00:03:57,310 --> 00:04:02,360 but even before then all throughout the 77 00:03:59,750 --> 00:04:05,830 20th century we didn't have much 78 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:09,290 tradition in terms of actually having a 79 00:04:05,830 --> 00:04:11,299 solid grassroots organizations and in 80 00:04:09,290 --> 00:04:13,690 much less transforming those grassroots 81 00:04:11,299 --> 00:04:17,150 organizations into political power 82 00:04:13,690 --> 00:04:19,130 that's what Chavez perceived practically 83 00:04:17,150 --> 00:04:21,560 from early on in his in his presidency 84 00:04:19,130 --> 00:04:24,229 order popular exactly hear people's 85 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:28,760 power in transformed a tandem brought 86 00:04:24,229 --> 00:04:30,550 those masses constructively into into 87 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,870 actually the whole governing process 88 00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:34,850 unfortunately he passed away there are 89 00:04:32,870 --> 00:04:37,310 many things that the popular people 90 00:04:34,850 --> 00:04:39,890 power actually reach and we were able to 91 00:04:37,310 --> 00:04:42,410 accomplish for example 30,000 communal 92 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:44,330 councils were set up in Venezuela and 93 00:04:42,410 --> 00:04:46,850 they were fully getting the hang of 94 00:04:44,330 --> 00:04:49,190 participating in government but this 95 00:04:46,850 --> 00:04:52,640 level of participation that we're seeing 96 00:04:49,190 --> 00:04:55,600 with with with the Congress that is 97 00:04:52,640 --> 00:05:01,020 taking place in Venezuela PSUV Congress 98 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:03,690 it really went to a great positive step 99 00:05:01,020 --> 00:05:05,639 as I said this was one of the major 100 00:05:03,690 --> 00:05:08,400 dreams of President Chavez one of 101 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:10,770 President Chavez is election pledges in 102 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,659 that last election in which I worked was 103 00:05:10,770 --> 00:05:15,210 that every Venezuelan would have a 104 00:05:12,659 --> 00:05:18,780 dignified house by the end of his 105 00:05:15,210 --> 00:05:21,509 presidential term is his successor 106 00:05:18,780 --> 00:05:23,759 President Maduro committed to that and 107 00:05:21,509 --> 00:05:27,780 what are the chances of that being 108 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:31,229 achieved I think is really really really 109 00:05:27,780 --> 00:05:32,659 good to see that particular achievement 110 00:05:31,229 --> 00:05:34,949 in the Bolivarian revolution 111 00:05:32,659 --> 00:05:36,930 half-million social houses have been 112 00:05:34,949 --> 00:05:40,020 built in Venezuela for the benefit of 113 00:05:36,930 --> 00:05:42,900 the poorest people actually many of 114 00:05:40,020 --> 00:05:45,000 those people lost everything they had in 115 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:47,550 the landslides that from the barrios 116 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,710 which is locked down the hillsides and 117 00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:52,229 they've been rehoused exactly they've 118 00:05:49,710 --> 00:05:54,509 been rehoused again half million social 119 00:05:52,229 --> 00:05:56,550 house that means easier this easy to say 120 00:05:54,509 --> 00:05:58,469 it but but think about I mean not many 121 00:05:56,550 --> 00:06:01,650 countries not many societies have 122 00:05:58,469 --> 00:06:04,590 accomplished such task in such cold and 123 00:06:01,650 --> 00:06:07,800 again this was the idea the craft of 124 00:06:04,590 --> 00:06:10,319 President Chavez in 2010 as soon as he 125 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,180 saw the unfortunate circumstances in 126 00:06:10,319 --> 00:06:15,150 which many Venezuelans were in at the 127 00:06:12,180 --> 00:06:17,460 time because of these landslides he 128 00:06:15,150 --> 00:06:20,940 medial immediately set up a whole plan a 129 00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:23,789 state plan operated to make sure that 130 00:06:20,940 --> 00:06:27,120 this project was going to take place and 131 00:06:23,789 --> 00:06:30,599 in fact a presser Maduro has not but 132 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:33,840 just continue with these fantastic our 133 00:06:30,599 --> 00:06:36,719 programs are recently as recently as as 134 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:40,440 a few days ago many of you probably have 135 00:06:36,719 --> 00:06:41,969 heard because the news and not in a 136 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,159 positive way but actually in a very 137 00:06:41,969 --> 00:06:47,639 negative way in this country and in many 138 00:06:44,159 --> 00:06:50,430 other countries have been writing and 139 00:06:47,639 --> 00:06:53,669 informing about a process by which in 140 00:06:50,430 --> 00:06:56,969 Venezuela we currently took residence of 141 00:06:53,669 --> 00:06:58,740 an older building that were not in very 142 00:06:56,969 --> 00:07:01,169 safe conditions and they were actually 143 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:03,690 taking from from those from that 144 00:07:01,169 --> 00:07:05,520 edification called a tower david's tower 145 00:07:03,690 --> 00:07:07,590 and they were actually moved into a 146 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:11,009 whole social housing companies at 147 00:07:07,590 --> 00:07:14,009 dignified complex for these families and 148 00:07:11,009 --> 00:07:14,460 children the media failed to recognize 149 00:07:14,009 --> 00:07:16,289 that the 150 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:17,940 actually moved to to a housing comedy 151 00:07:16,289 --> 00:07:21,660 concentrated on the fact that removed 152 00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:25,110 exactly that's the media we have every 153 00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:28,919 child in Venezuela either has or is 154 00:07:25,110 --> 00:07:31,319 about to have access to a computer you 155 00:07:28,919 --> 00:07:34,490 built more universities than any country 156 00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:37,440 in the entire world these are fantastic 157 00:07:34,490 --> 00:07:40,080 achievements of the Bolivarian 158 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:42,990 revolution president Maduro of course is 159 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:47,669 not Chavez nobody is Chavez how is he 160 00:07:42,990 --> 00:07:49,710 doing in adjusting to the task of 161 00:07:47,669 --> 00:07:54,389 filling the shoes of such a very great 162 00:07:49,710 --> 00:07:57,539 figure as you said is not easy I not 163 00:07:54,389 --> 00:07:59,430 only president Maduro but no one in 164 00:07:57,539 --> 00:08:01,110 Venezuela would say no one in Latin 165 00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:04,889 America and over in the world in oven in 166 00:08:01,110 --> 00:08:09,539 the world I can actually fully feels 167 00:08:04,889 --> 00:08:11,820 services shoes and I really don't think 168 00:08:09,539 --> 00:08:14,580 that the Venezuelan population 169 00:08:11,820 --> 00:08:17,819 Venezuelan voters are actually expecting 170 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:20,099 from Madrid to be a photocopy of Chavez 171 00:08:17,819 --> 00:08:21,690 what they're expecting from Maduro I 172 00:08:20,099 --> 00:08:24,360 think they're getting it which is 173 00:08:21,690 --> 00:08:26,580 leadership command knowledge of the 174 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,220 situation I mean he's a very able man 175 00:08:26,580 --> 00:08:31,889 very experienced man we said let's not 176 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:34,380 forget he's a worker I knew I knew him 177 00:08:31,889 --> 00:08:36,719 from the days he was a bus driver we 178 00:08:34,380 --> 00:08:38,729 were members of the same transport you 179 00:08:36,719 --> 00:08:41,159 and that's one of the reasons why I was 180 00:08:38,729 --> 00:08:43,529 break right goes to him when he was the 181 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:46,680 foreign minister yeah I mean obviously 182 00:08:43,529 --> 00:08:48,209 present Chavez is legacies is known and 183 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:50,520 it's so famous and it's respected by 184 00:08:48,209 --> 00:08:52,320 from his critics and fans what would you 185 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,540 say would be the one key thing obviously 186 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,790 in the capitalist society of here that 187 00:08:54,540 --> 00:08:58,620 really could be a constructive lesson 188 00:08:56,790 --> 00:09:00,660 learnt from from presidential ease well 189 00:08:58,620 --> 00:09:03,089 that does a good point from an economic 190 00:09:00,660 --> 00:09:06,390 point of view well i think in one of the 191 00:09:03,089 --> 00:09:09,570 choices legacies is that he was able to 192 00:09:06,390 --> 00:09:13,589 beat the capitalist system in their own 193 00:09:09,570 --> 00:09:15,810 game what i mean by this when chavez 194 00:09:13,589 --> 00:09:18,510 came to power and and and he immediately 195 00:09:15,810 --> 00:09:20,579 said like well we need to certain things 196 00:09:18,510 --> 00:09:22,620 need to change in Venezuela the state 197 00:09:20,579 --> 00:09:24,420 needs to be more involved in the economy 198 00:09:22,620 --> 00:09:24,810 there are certain industries and we need 199 00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:27,210 to not 200 00:09:24,810 --> 00:09:30,320 analyzed the social welfare system needs 201 00:09:27,210 --> 00:09:32,700 to be strengthened immediately those are 202 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,590 people who know a lot about the economy 203 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:36,029 world why said well that sounds very 204 00:09:34,590 --> 00:09:38,460 good but that's not going to work 205 00:09:36,029 --> 00:09:40,590 economically and therefore you're going 206 00:09:38,460 --> 00:09:43,440 to have lots of economic issues namely 207 00:09:40,590 --> 00:09:46,020 you're not going to have growth in the 208 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,420 country well actually before Chavez died 209 00:09:46,020 --> 00:09:50,940 we went through an average growth of 4% 210 00:09:48,420 --> 00:09:53,040 well and this is something that no one 211 00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:55,230 really expected taking into account that 212 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:58,050 Chavez had changed the rules of the 213 00:09:55,230 --> 00:09:59,970 capitalist system in a way that was to 214 00:09:58,050 --> 00:10:03,839 favor socially the masses of the 215 00:09:59,970 --> 00:10:05,970 population the economy is the key as 216 00:10:03,839 --> 00:10:09,060 Bill Clinton famously put it's the 217 00:10:05,970 --> 00:10:12,330 economy stupid and whilst all other 218 00:10:09,060 --> 00:10:14,450 things cultural and other foreign policy 219 00:10:12,330 --> 00:10:17,250 things then as well as foreign policies 220 00:10:14,450 --> 00:10:21,029 exemplary an example to the entire world 221 00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:24,320 and so on but in the end it's potatoes 222 00:10:21,029 --> 00:10:27,779 on the plate its production its 223 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:29,790 consumption goods and the shops and so 224 00:10:27,779 --> 00:10:33,890 on then as well as still has some 225 00:10:29,790 --> 00:10:36,690 distance to travel on that front yeah i 226 00:10:33,890 --> 00:10:38,940 think we currently as a matter of fact 227 00:10:36,690 --> 00:10:43,260 going through a major restructuring of 228 00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:45,210 the whole state apparatus in the key the 229 00:10:43,260 --> 00:10:47,400 aim and president Maduro has been very 230 00:10:45,210 --> 00:10:50,160 explicit and and has worked very hard in 231 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:52,650 order to achieve is to make sure that we 232 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:57,150 continue to be socialist but at the same 233 00:10:52,650 --> 00:11:00,000 time we need to be productive so so how 234 00:10:57,150 --> 00:11:01,890 to do that is a process of our process 235 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,020 that has been in place that again 236 00:11:01,890 --> 00:11:05,910 president is always thought about that 237 00:11:04,020 --> 00:11:07,860 as well but let's not forget that well 238 00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:11,450 you know about this much more than than 239 00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:14,430 me is that from the kind of a colonial 240 00:11:11,450 --> 00:11:17,670 legacy that Venezuela and Latin America 241 00:11:14,430 --> 00:11:20,670 had for not just a few years but for 500 242 00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:22,260 years and in our dependency exclude 243 00:11:20,670 --> 00:11:26,100 exclusively on commodities in 244 00:11:22,260 --> 00:11:28,230 particularly oil in order even though we 245 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:30,480 have been empowered ball even revolution 246 00:11:28,230 --> 00:11:33,720 for 15 years in order to distinguish 247 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:37,690 elves from that critical and i would say 248 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:39,910 negative a past that still inflict 249 00:11:37,690 --> 00:11:42,790 upon what we do economically and 250 00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:45,940 otherwise nowadays it takes that quite a 251 00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:48,970 long time we will know the consequences 252 00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:51,070 of colonialism everywhere we're not an 253 00:11:48,970 --> 00:11:55,060 exception so but waiting we have covered 254 00:11:51,070 --> 00:11:56,920 a great deal of a great path and we're 255 00:11:55,060 --> 00:12:00,280 currently in the process of us brasserie 256 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:03,100 Maduro set of making sure strengthening 257 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:05,370 the productive sector but still keeping 258 00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:09,700 in mind that we're socialist nation well 259 00:12:05,370 --> 00:12:12,040 it was said by very great Irishman Oscar 260 00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:14,260 Wilde that right-wing people knew the 261 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,750 price of everything and the value of 262 00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:18,640 nothing it's equally wrong though to 263 00:12:16,750 --> 00:12:21,610 know the value of everything and the 264 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:24,370 price of nothing your excellency thanks 265 00:12:21,610 --> 00:12:28,270 very much and we remember with solemnity 266 00:12:24,370 --> 00:12:30,400 but also with joy the example of your 267 00:12:28,270 --> 00:12:33,700 late president thank you very much for 268 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,500 joining us on the sputnik coming up 269 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:38,380 after the break we'll be looking at the 270 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:40,360 linguistics of conflict narratives who 271 00:12:38,380 --> 00:12:43,300 are the militants and the extremists who 272 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:45,340 are the moderates and the government's 273 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:47,140 that need to be supported I promise you 274 00:12:45,340 --> 00:12:49,470 you don't want to miss it we'll be right 275 00:12:47,140 --> 00:12:49,470 back 276 00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:57,630 I'll come back to Sputnik the 277 00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:59,820 linguistics of conflict narratives has 278 00:12:57,630 --> 00:13:02,520 always been a fascinating subject to me 279 00:12:59,820 --> 00:13:05,040 and nowhere more so than at the present 280 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:09,080 in the wars currently being fought out 281 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:12,600 in Syria Palestine Libya the Ukraine etc 282 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:15,120 ukraine now in the Western narrative has 283 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,459 a government without reference to the 284 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,339 fact that it came to power by virtue of 285 00:13:17,459 --> 00:13:23,220 a western-backed violent coup led by 286 00:13:20,339 --> 00:13:26,640 self professed ultra-nationalist some 287 00:13:23,220 --> 00:13:29,520 say neo-nazi elements who overthrew the 288 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:31,980 actual government that is the one that 289 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,860 had been elected by the people those who 290 00:13:31,980 --> 00:13:37,279 refuse to accept the coup against the 291 00:13:34,860 --> 00:13:40,050 government they elected have become 292 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:42,959 terrorists were stunned separatist 293 00:13:40,050 --> 00:13:46,500 rebels at best the Ukrainian government 294 00:13:42,959 --> 00:13:48,839 is now bombing its own people and that 295 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:51,209 becomes something we must support was 296 00:13:48,839 --> 00:13:53,430 the Syrian government bombing its own 297 00:13:51,209 --> 00:13:57,240 people become something against which we 298 00:13:53,430 --> 00:14:00,350 must intervene ie bomb in serious 299 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:04,230 conflict al-qaeda type extremists are 300 00:14:00,350 --> 00:14:06,870 rebranded as moderate Islamists except 301 00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:09,779 when they cross into iraq at which 302 00:14:06,870 --> 00:14:13,200 precise point they become extremists 303 00:14:09,779 --> 00:14:15,300 again and so on and on and rather than 304 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,970 by over design this Orwellian 305 00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:21,270 doublespeak seems to real interaction by 306 00:14:17,970 --> 00:14:23,220 simple osmosis no minutes of a Cobra 307 00:14:21,270 --> 00:14:25,290 committee meeting or during the 308 00:14:23,220 --> 00:14:27,839 linguistic bombardments exist and 309 00:14:25,290 --> 00:14:30,270 probably no such orders whatever given 310 00:14:27,839 --> 00:14:33,150 no such meetings whatever convened it 311 00:14:30,270 --> 00:14:36,120 seems there's no need to the media takes 312 00:14:33,150 --> 00:14:39,300 an invisible q joining us to discuss 313 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:42,360 this is mamoun alabare see a linguistics 314 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:44,940 expert and also a respected analyst and 315 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,010 writer on many of today's battlegrounds 316 00:14:44,940 --> 00:14:49,740 principally those in the Middle East 317 00:14:47,010 --> 00:14:52,350 mamaan thank you very much for joining 318 00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:54,870 us what lies behind the nomenclature 319 00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:59,070 that's one of the points I want to get 320 00:14:54,870 --> 00:15:01,260 to with you how do we decide what we 321 00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:03,959 describe different actors in these 322 00:15:01,260 --> 00:15:05,820 conflicts as right sometimes the same 323 00:15:03,959 --> 00:15:07,800 act if we are in 324 00:15:05,820 --> 00:15:09,540 favor of a certain government the same 325 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,490 act will be overlooked may be excused 326 00:15:09,540 --> 00:15:13,920 may be given context if you see the 327 00:15:11,490 --> 00:15:16,230 bombing of the UN school in Gaza for 328 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,970 example the the bombing itself is 329 00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:19,740 condemned Israel wasn't condemned and 330 00:15:17,970 --> 00:15:22,920 then we hear about something about Hamas 331 00:15:19,740 --> 00:15:25,770 may have been placing rockets there so 332 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:28,890 once the you take aside the news itself 333 00:15:25,770 --> 00:15:32,070 is presented differently whereas in 334 00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:35,940 other places where the enemy is clearly 335 00:15:32,070 --> 00:15:38,460 defined we highlight and repeat and 336 00:15:35,940 --> 00:15:40,380 repeat the the ugliness of this enemy 337 00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:43,080 everywhere where I would slightly 338 00:15:40,380 --> 00:15:45,300 disagree with you it's is with regards 339 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,280 to the Al qaeda-inspired militants 340 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:49,140 they've always been presented as a 341 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,060 number one threat even in Syria now 342 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:52,620 everybody's talking about how those 343 00:15:51,060 --> 00:15:54,810 militants coming from Syria they gonna 344 00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:56,820 bombard the West security companies are 345 00:15:54,810 --> 00:16:00,750 ringing that Bell the airports are you 346 00:15:56,820 --> 00:16:04,290 know taking extra measures we're 347 00:16:00,750 --> 00:16:07,460 anticipating more grooming of Muslims 348 00:16:04,290 --> 00:16:10,470 and more spying on them more informants 349 00:16:07,460 --> 00:16:12,630 the fact that they are in Syria hasn't 350 00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:15,750 changed the fact that the the government 351 00:16:12,630 --> 00:16:19,470 of President Assad is not an ally has 352 00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:21,570 introduced the main focus which is on 353 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:22,950 anything that is Islamist so anything 354 00:16:21,570 --> 00:16:24,630 that's Islamist even if it's elk you 355 00:16:22,950 --> 00:16:26,160 know if it's anti-bashar if it's 356 00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:27,780 Islamist then it's the number one enemy 357 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,880 it's the numberless the number one enemy 358 00:16:27,780 --> 00:16:32,940 when it's comin yeah it's the number one 359 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,710 enemy when it gets back here but I was 360 00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:36,690 trapped in a lift or he was dropped with 361 00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:39,300 me with William Hague quite recently the 362 00:16:36,690 --> 00:16:41,940 former Foreign Secretary and I i said to 363 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:44,610 him this you've been wrong all your life 364 00:16:41,940 --> 00:16:46,620 but you've never been insane before now 365 00:16:44,610 --> 00:16:49,710 the policy you're following in Syria is 366 00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:51,870 actually insane not least because the 367 00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:54,990 people you are encouraging with 368 00:16:51,870 --> 00:16:57,630 non-lethal military aid and money and 369 00:16:54,990 --> 00:17:00,270 political and diplomatic support to go 370 00:16:57,630 --> 00:17:04,199 to Syria and overthrow the regime there 371 00:17:00,270 --> 00:17:05,850 one day they'll come back here and I 372 00:17:04,199 --> 00:17:07,740 asked David Cameron on the floor of the 373 00:17:05,850 --> 00:17:10,380 house what's the difference between the 374 00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:13,230 al Qaeda that were going to Mali to help 375 00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:16,320 the French to kill and the al-qaeda in 376 00:17:13,230 --> 00:17:19,299 Syria that directly and indirectly us 377 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:21,730 and the Americans are backing 378 00:17:19,299 --> 00:17:23,259 well to be fair there are many groups on 379 00:17:21,730 --> 00:17:25,329 the ground in Syria and the ones that 380 00:17:23,259 --> 00:17:27,999 support are supported by the West I 381 00:17:25,329 --> 00:17:30,159 supposedly the moderates are being 382 00:17:27,999 --> 00:17:33,100 fought by al-qaeda the al-qaeda ones and 383 00:17:30,159 --> 00:17:35,230 the iis ones who incidentally by the way 384 00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:37,179 until recently is fighters have never 385 00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:39,220 been engaged in a single battle with the 386 00:17:37,179 --> 00:17:41,950 forces of Assad they've always lived 387 00:17:39,220 --> 00:17:45,039 peacefully and even the the oil would be 388 00:17:41,950 --> 00:17:48,369 sold from areas under Isis control into 389 00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:51,369 acid so we have all width with strange 390 00:17:48,369 --> 00:17:53,619 alliances the average Syrian who is 391 00:17:51,369 --> 00:17:56,440 critical of the government of Bashar Oh 392 00:17:53,619 --> 00:17:59,470 as a refugee has this conspiracy theory 393 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,970 that Isis is not just western-backed its 394 00:17:59,470 --> 00:18:03,489 iranian-backed of course it's a 395 00:18:00,970 --> 00:18:06,009 conspiracy theory but you can't you must 396 00:18:03,489 --> 00:18:09,039 think an absurd one we've actually seen 397 00:18:06,009 --> 00:18:10,840 the videos of Isis massacring huge 398 00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:13,029 numbers of people but purely on the 399 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,220 basis of their Roger if a large number 400 00:18:13,029 --> 00:18:17,409 of people think that way it means there 401 00:18:15,220 --> 00:18:20,409 is some sort of different points of view 402 00:18:17,409 --> 00:18:24,129 on the ground in Gaza Israelis are 403 00:18:20,409 --> 00:18:27,279 killed whilst Palestinians die I have at 404 00:18:24,129 --> 00:18:30,279 least 50 examples in the multinational 405 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:32,830 international mass media of descriptions 406 00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:36,580 of pellet 20 Palestinians fifty a 407 00:18:32,830 --> 00:18:40,629 hundred died today was one or two 408 00:18:36,580 --> 00:18:44,499 Israelis were killed today killed and 409 00:18:40,629 --> 00:18:47,919 died but the pursuit of tunnels and 410 00:18:44,499 --> 00:18:50,169 militants in Gaza when seventy-five 411 00:18:47,919 --> 00:18:52,749 percent of the people killed in Gaza 412 00:18:50,169 --> 00:18:54,730 have been civilians and most of those 413 00:18:52,749 --> 00:18:57,639 have been women and children nothing to 414 00:18:54,730 --> 00:18:59,230 do with tunnels or militancy so where 415 00:18:57,639 --> 00:19:02,649 does all this come out of just pure 416 00:18:59,230 --> 00:19:04,419 political bias um yes and unfortunately 417 00:19:02,649 --> 00:19:07,210 the narrative is shaped not by 418 00:19:04,419 --> 00:19:09,399 politicians by the media who we know 419 00:19:07,210 --> 00:19:11,529 it's you know owned by handful of people 420 00:19:09,399 --> 00:19:13,779 with certain agendas so that's that's 421 00:19:11,529 --> 00:19:15,789 really unfortunate but it's MIT as the 422 00:19:13,779 --> 00:19:17,049 context the whole idea of occupation the 423 00:19:15,789 --> 00:19:19,029 whole notion of resistance the whole 424 00:19:17,049 --> 00:19:20,710 idea according to international law it's 425 00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:23,769 allowed all of that is dropped out 426 00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:26,320 nobody's really focusing on that but I 427 00:19:23,769 --> 00:19:28,929 don't want to be here bombast in just 428 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,639 one side of the media I we must 429 00:19:28,929 --> 00:19:33,260 acknowledge that majority of 430 00:19:30,639 --> 00:19:35,120 international media with no exception 431 00:19:33,260 --> 00:19:37,640 take one line or another and they have 432 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:39,910 this world view like let's say me and 433 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,990 you agree on Gaza and we agree on 434 00:19:39,910 --> 00:19:44,240 Ukraine we don't have to necessarily 435 00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:46,250 agree on Syria but there's been this 436 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,470 kind of line if you're at one station 437 00:19:46,250 --> 00:19:51,410 you have one world view when it comes to 438 00:19:48,470 --> 00:19:53,120 Syria to Gaza to a Palestine to Iraq too 439 00:19:51,410 --> 00:19:54,830 and if you from the other side you have 440 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,510 another world view mmm and this looks 441 00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:59,990 like different planets and if it's a 442 00:19:56,510 --> 00:20:02,500 Martian watching you leave unfortunately 443 00:19:59,990 --> 00:20:05,270 that's that's true although some 444 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:07,850 stations acknowledge and others deny me 445 00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:11,450 the BBC for example calls other people 446 00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:13,430 state broadcasters well is my itself is 447 00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:14,780 the broadcaster but of course there was 448 00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:16,550 that outrageous statement wasn't there 449 00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:18,650 by what many would call one of the 450 00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:20,030 world's top terrorist George W Bush when 451 00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:22,250 he stated that there were states in the 452 00:20:20,030 --> 00:20:23,960 middle east of the axis of evil how much 453 00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:26,530 do you think that is such statement has 454 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:29,810 a legacy in today in terms of its impact 455 00:20:26,530 --> 00:20:32,630 things have dramatically changed since 456 00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:34,220 since then and remember that the these 457 00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:36,040 states that even the people he would 458 00:20:34,220 --> 00:20:39,680 call axis of evil me was North Korea 459 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:42,110 Iraq and and Iran today there is talk of 460 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,000 which permits approach went with Iran we 461 00:20:42,110 --> 00:20:46,550 have an idea that the other states might 462 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,260 be cooperating with Iran to fight Isis 463 00:20:46,550 --> 00:20:50,150 you have the Israeli joining in being 464 00:20:48,260 --> 00:20:52,340 anti-isis everybody's become a friend 465 00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:54,800 the Gulf states then a born enemies the 466 00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:56,960 Gulf state is Isis because they they 467 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,060 pose an extremist point of view that its 468 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:02,150 claim to Islamic that aims to overthrow 469 00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:03,950 them so everybody's happy to to to join 470 00:21:02,150 --> 00:21:06,290 rocha Greeks have changed would you 471 00:21:03,950 --> 00:21:08,060 agree with the suggestion that George 472 00:21:06,290 --> 00:21:09,890 was suggesting that there were axis of 473 00:21:08,060 --> 00:21:11,060 evil existed promit moods majority of 474 00:21:09,890 --> 00:21:13,100 those countries he labeled was in the 475 00:21:11,060 --> 00:21:14,840 Middle East would you agree with some 476 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:17,480 people suggest that this language is a 477 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,370 term very much set of cover half of this 478 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,470 kind of Islamophobia that we do of see 479 00:21:19,370 --> 00:21:23,960 exist of course and this was you like um 480 00:21:21,470 --> 00:21:26,570 I mean it's one of those a cartoonish 481 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,790 we're not presentation on things it came 482 00:21:26,570 --> 00:21:31,490 at a time when hurting me was offering a 483 00:21:28,790 --> 00:21:34,760 dialogue of civilization and he stopped 484 00:21:31,490 --> 00:21:37,550 the the enrichment of uranium so he kind 485 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:41,240 of slapped this this gesture with with 486 00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:43,490 more escalation and then we saw what 487 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,500 what happens with was Iraq was totally 488 00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:46,820 unjustifiable and we're still paying for 489 00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:49,159 the price for that 490 00:21:46,820 --> 00:21:54,769 it's that flat that language as real as 491 00:21:49,159 --> 00:21:57,440 the is the gravest case in point here we 492 00:21:54,769 --> 00:22:00,590 continue to endlessly receive a 493 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:03,019 narrative that the Israelis are the 494 00:22:00,590 --> 00:22:06,440 victims and the Palestinians the 495 00:22:03,019 --> 00:22:09,230 perpetrators when we know and most of 496 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,570 the people watching this show know that 497 00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:13,870 the opposite is the case that these 498 00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:15,769 people in Gaza who are being bombed 499 00:22:13,870 --> 00:22:18,350 remorselessly with nowhere to run 500 00:22:15,769 --> 00:22:21,259 nowhere to hide are themselves eighty 501 00:22:18,350 --> 00:22:24,350 percent of them refugees from Palestine 502 00:22:21,259 --> 00:22:28,820 they were driven to Gaza and because 503 00:22:24,350 --> 00:22:32,509 they continue to exist and resist by 504 00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:35,659 existing they resist there are a mortal 505 00:22:32,509 --> 00:22:39,139 threat to the settler control of their 506 00:22:35,659 --> 00:22:42,110 land how solid in the media you're a 507 00:22:39,139 --> 00:22:43,730 media man how solid is the Israeli 508 00:22:42,110 --> 00:22:45,409 narrative the journalists and 509 00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:48,529 broadcasters really believe it or 510 00:22:45,409 --> 00:22:50,149 they're pretending to believe it I think 511 00:22:48,529 --> 00:22:51,919 it's difficult they've grown accustomed 512 00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:53,899 to a certain line which they've been 513 00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:56,480 used to and it's difficult to change 514 00:22:53,899 --> 00:22:58,899 what's happening though through thanks 515 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:01,159 to social media and other media outlets 516 00:22:58,899 --> 00:23:03,049 they've been exposing what's really 517 00:23:01,159 --> 00:23:05,179 going on so they've been caught of God 518 00:23:03,049 --> 00:23:07,490 at one point that they continue with 519 00:23:05,179 --> 00:23:09,679 this old-fashioned archaic narrative on 520 00:23:07,490 --> 00:23:11,809 the other hand the youth the people who 521 00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:14,149 follow social media have noticed there's 522 00:23:11,809 --> 00:23:16,700 a different story going on we've 523 00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:18,529 mentioned the one in Gaza for example 524 00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:20,570 you say that all those the idea of a 525 00:23:18,529 --> 00:23:22,279 conflict there is no conflict there is 526 00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:25,340 an occupation there's a you know a 527 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:26,659 tremendous disproportionate use of power 528 00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:28,190 there's no conflict between two equal 529 00:23:26,659 --> 00:23:31,220 sides that's why I've got many people so 530 00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:32,960 very much unhappy the way with him how 531 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:34,549 they mainstreamed you know media is 532 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,379 reporting things that's what people are 533 00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:37,940 going at in the thousands in protest I 534 00:23:36,379 --> 00:23:39,860 mean there was a protest against even 535 00:23:37,940 --> 00:23:41,299 BBC coverage people you shouldn't 536 00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:44,210 protest that you should be protesting an 537 00:23:41,299 --> 00:23:46,190 atrocity you know but it's an extent 538 00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:49,190 that you're going out and protest away a 539 00:23:46,190 --> 00:23:51,259 certain channels is covering the event 540 00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:53,419 it means many people are really really 541 00:23:51,259 --> 00:23:55,190 fed up of that and and this is you know 542 00:23:53,419 --> 00:23:57,440 thanks to social media and the 543 00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:59,840 alternative that kept me no cash in in 544 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,550 that and they would you know fill that 545 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,880 niche 546 00:24:00,550 --> 00:24:05,440 so people are aware luckily my moon 547 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,250 thanks very much thank you for helping 548 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:14,470 us through that thicket of 549 00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:15,970 misinformation and now it's your turn to 550 00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:18,250 tell us what you think through the 551 00:24:15,970 --> 00:24:20,680 portals of social media what's rattling 552 00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:22,960 Joseph well on the obviously anniversary 553 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,700 of President Hugo Chavez birthday OKO 554 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,170 pola says hookah travelers will be 555 00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:29,080 remembered in the same light as Che 556 00:24:26,170 --> 00:24:31,180 Guevara hero and Sue congela says a 557 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,490 legend che Guevara would have been proud 558 00:24:31,180 --> 00:24:35,380 there is no easy walk to 559 00:24:32,490 --> 00:24:37,890 self-determination anywhere absolutely 560 00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:40,480 right and of course on the point of the 561 00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:42,420 linguistics and how the terminology 562 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,860 affects the international community 563 00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:47,350 sekonda says social media debunking 564 00:24:44,860 --> 00:24:49,120 mainstream media lies media no longer 565 00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:51,760 reporting news for playing politics I 566 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:53,560 think that the political class and the 567 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,410 media class are way behind the curve on 568 00:24:53,560 --> 00:25:00,160 this they have not quite grasped how 569 00:24:56,410 --> 00:25:02,500 momentous the change of paradigm is by 570 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,020 the impact of social media you know that 571 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:07,330 in the great two million march in 2003 572 00:25:05,020 --> 00:25:09,310 against the war in Iraq it's very 573 00:25:07,330 --> 00:25:11,590 difficult to find footage of it because 574 00:25:09,310 --> 00:25:15,850 camera phones hadn't been invented yet 575 00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:17,980 and just 11 years later everyone has a 576 00:25:15,850 --> 00:25:20,830 camera phone everyone is therefore a 577 00:25:17,980 --> 00:25:22,270 potential citizen journalist and the 578 00:25:20,830 --> 00:25:24,880 citizen journalists can usually be 579 00:25:22,270 --> 00:25:26,470 trusted more than the ones we pay to be 580 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,970 journalists that's what we've got time 581 00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:30,340 for this week's which unfortunately 582 00:25:27,970 --> 00:25:32,380 means that's the end of the show follow 583 00:25:30,340 --> 00:25:34,750 us on Twitter it's arty underscore 584 00:25:32,380 --> 00:25:36,970 Sputnik and of course on facebook its 585 00:25:34,750 --> 00:25:39,100 Sputnik on Russia today but for me 586 00:25:36,970 --> 00:25:42,900 Joseph hi it's goodbye I'm from me 587 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:42,900 George Galloway it's been marvelous