1 00:00:04,090 --> 00:00:07,230 [Music] 2 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:17,639 Dead. Thank you. I need 3 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,320 Welcome to Sputnik, orbiting the world 4 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,559 with me, George Galloway, and me, Gayri. 5 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,399 As the economic and political crisis in 6 00:00:42,559 --> 00:00:47,039 Western Europe continues to drag 7 00:00:44,399 --> 00:00:49,840 millions into poverty and unemployment, 8 00:00:47,039 --> 00:00:51,760 inelectably, racism is on the rise. 9 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,079 Sometimes stoked by parties of the far 10 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:56,079 right, sometimes by respectable 11 00:00:54,079 --> 00:00:58,320 politicians. themselves in part 12 00:00:56,079 --> 00:01:00,640 responsible for the economic crisis 13 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,800 producing the racism. Tony Blair's 14 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,960 right-hand man, David Blunkett, spoke 15 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,439 recently about a supposed influx of 16 00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:09,360 people from Romania and Bulgaria in 17 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:11,360 terms which if he'd used about black 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,600 people or Jewish people would have had 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,760 him up on a charge. Romanians and 20 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,080 Bulgarians, according to Mr. Blancet, 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,400 are barely toilet trained and certainly 22 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,960 don't know the purpose of a dustpin. So, 23 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,960 we're asking this week, how racist is 24 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:27,439 Britain? And if you think Britain's 25 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:30,080 racist, have you ever lived in France or 26 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:32,400 the Netherlands? Gatry, where an annual 27 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,000 controversy has reached new levels. Tell 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,680 us about it. Well, this weekend the 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,159 Dutch are celebrating their tradition of 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,040 St. Nicholas who is a patron saint of 31 00:01:38,159 --> 00:01:43,759 the children and has a crew of black 32 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:46,079 servants or helpers as they wish to call 33 00:01:43,759 --> 00:01:48,079 it today. If you just look at these 34 00:01:46,079 --> 00:01:50,560 pictures, they are the obvious portrayal 35 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:52,560 of racism. But the Dutch uphold this 36 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,720 tradition very highly. There's always 37 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,720 been protest about this racist element 38 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,360 of the tradition and this year it has 39 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:02,880 even reached the United Nations to which 40 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:05,360 the Dutch responded furiously. They sent 41 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,800 abuse and insult to Professor Shephard 42 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:10,399 who raised the matter to the Dutch 43 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,239 government and uh to which Dutch 44 00:02:10,399 --> 00:02:14,319 government said this is our business 45 00:02:12,239 --> 00:02:16,640 stay out of it. And the prime minister 46 00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:18,080 even responded, "Well, Blackbeat is 47 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:20,480 black. There's not much you can do about 48 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,319 that." Except he's not black, of course, 49 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,879 because all over the Netherlands, people 50 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:27,200 are blacking up their faces to look like 51 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:29,080 black servants of Santa Claus. Who'd 52 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,440 have thought it in the Liberal 53 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,760 Netherlands. Shortly, I'll be talking to 54 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,319 Lee Jasper, London's most prominent 55 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,560 black activist and a senior official in 56 00:02:36,319 --> 00:02:40,560 two London administrations under Mayor 57 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,040 Ken Livingston. He's produced a 58 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,040 devastating new report, police, courts, 59 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,760 and black communities, and we'll be 60 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,920 asking him about that. But first, Gatri, 61 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,400 you took the Sputnik cameras out in 62 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:54,319 North London asking the public about 63 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,400 racism. What was their verdict? Guilty 64 00:02:54,319 --> 00:02:59,040 or not guilty, 65 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,040 depending on who you ask, I guess. Let's 66 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,560 take a look. No, Britain's not a racist 67 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,920 country. There are racist individuals, 68 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,920 but you can't generalize the whole 69 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:08,959 country as a whole. I lived in a area 70 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:10,560 called Kent for over 12 years. And when 71 00:03:08,959 --> 00:03:12,720 I first got there, it was really racist. 72 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,360 Yeah, a lot of people were racist. But 73 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,959 as they got to as they got to know me 74 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,440 over the years, it just kind of 75 00:03:16,959 --> 00:03:22,000 gradually changed. We saw racism, it's 76 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:24,800 still there um as a whole. It's just 77 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,959 more hidden now. So, it's not as blatant 78 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,040 in your face, but I but I do believe 79 00:03:26,959 --> 00:03:31,360 it's obviously is still out there. 80 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,120 There's so many cultures in Britain that 81 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,360 they all clash and when they clash, it 82 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,440 causes racism. One of my cousins is like 83 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,599 is black and basically he he get 84 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,720 sometimes gets stopped for no reason. 85 00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:44,720 And I think police have got police are 86 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,000 like they're racist sometimes because 87 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,920 they'll stop more black people than 88 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,080 white people. It's everywhere in the 89 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,720 world. So we all have to they have to 90 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,720 try every place to stop racism. Yeah. 91 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,640 It's all over the world. I think within 92 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,000 every country you have certain racist 93 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,720 people. But I don't think as a country 94 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,319 is racist because if you see a lot 95 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:07,239 around schools and colleges a lot of 96 00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:07,239 black people and white people do mix. 97 00:04:07,439 --> 00:04:11,519 I'm delighted to welcome Lee Jasper 98 00:04:09,439 --> 00:04:13,760 aboard the Sputnik. Lee of course from 99 00:04:11,519 --> 00:04:15,599 up here the color of people's skin is 100 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,000 quite invisible but from your 101 00:04:15,599 --> 00:04:19,600 devastating new report down on the 102 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,759 street it looks very different. Tell us 103 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,000 about it. Well, what's happened is that 104 00:04:21,759 --> 00:04:25,919 uh in the last uh month, we produced two 105 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,960 reports. Uh one by government which 106 00:04:25,919 --> 00:04:30,479 analyzes the uh incidence of race and 107 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,880 racism within the criminal justice 108 00:04:30,479 --> 00:04:37,199 system, another by a charity focusing on 109 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,360 drugs that looks at the stop and search 110 00:04:37,199 --> 00:04:41,520 within the metropolitan in London area 111 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,680 and the extent to which black and white 112 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,479 people get differentially charged with 113 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,479 crimes uh even though they may be 114 00:04:46,479 --> 00:04:50,400 firsttime offenders of both of them. And 115 00:04:48,479 --> 00:04:52,479 the conclusions of these reports are 116 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,280 that in relation to the criminal justice 117 00:04:52,479 --> 00:04:57,280 system, if you're black, you're 20% more 118 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:59,280 likely to be sent to jail for a like and 119 00:04:57,280 --> 00:05:02,479 like offense with your with a white 120 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:05,440 offender. Uh and you are on average will 121 00:05:02,479 --> 00:05:07,600 receive 24 months as opposed to the 122 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,080 white offender who will receive 15 123 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:13,840 months. And that's even in the backdrop 124 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:16,240 against uh uh white offenders having a 125 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:18,400 more extensive criminal record and black 126 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,560 people committing less crime, they are 127 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,800 still more likely to be sent to jail. 128 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,280 And then of course the uh report by the 129 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,360 release charity, the drugs charity, 130 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:30,160 found out that if you are a firsttime 131 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:33,199 offender, uh black and white, and we get 132 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,199 caught with cannabis, uh I will be 50% 133 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:37,280 more likely to be sent to court than you 134 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:40,720 will. And if we were to be caught with 135 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:43,199 cocaine, I am 70% more likely to be sent 136 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:46,800 to court than you will. And what we've 137 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:48,639 uh a startling figure is that the drag 138 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,880 net for sucking our people into the 139 00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:53,199 criminal justice system is the power of 140 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:57,199 the police and stop and search. And they 141 00:05:53,199 --> 00:06:00,479 have conducted over 1.5 million stop and 142 00:05:57,199 --> 00:06:03,039 search on Africans, Caribbean, Asian, 143 00:06:00,479 --> 00:06:04,800 people of mixed heritage, Asian and 144 00:06:03,039 --> 00:06:06,639 white, black and white here in the 145 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:11,240 capital. An absolutely staggering 146 00:06:06,639 --> 00:06:14,800 number. This is just in five years. 2008 147 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,800 2008 1.5 million people in Britain have 148 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:20,000 been stopped and searched by the police 149 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:22,680 in London only. It's a staggering 150 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:25,360 figure. It is. Now what of 151 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:28,240 those what percentage are from the black 152 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:30,120 and minority ethnic? 840 odd thousand 153 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:34,319 are black, 154 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:38,479 533,000 are Asian and the 133 odd 155 00:06:34,319 --> 00:06:40,800 thousand are Asian and mixed are mixed 156 00:06:38,479 --> 00:06:42,560 heritage uh in this multicultural 157 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,199 society. You see, even for me as a a 158 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:48,319 practitioner in the field, this the 159 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:51,199 statistics, the facts in your report 160 00:06:48,319 --> 00:06:54,000 were actually stunning. And you had a 161 00:06:51,199 --> 00:06:56,400 trip ditch which grabbed me. You said 162 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:59,919 that racism in the police and justice 163 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:03,759 system in Britain was resurgent 164 00:06:59,919 --> 00:07:06,080 uh out of control and rampant. I mean, 165 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:07,919 these are strong uh terms. It is. And if 166 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:11,120 you look at the figures for stop and 167 00:07:07,919 --> 00:07:12,560 search since 2008, increased by 7%. If 168 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:16,160 you look at the number of black young 169 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:18,240 people in young people uh in prison 170 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,560 establishments, that's increased since 171 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:25,039 2008 by 100%. 172 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:27,440 uh and uh so you get the sense of a 173 00:07:25,039 --> 00:07:30,240 current coalition government having been 174 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:32,400 given a green light to the police to act 175 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,080 as discriminatory and the courts to act 176 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,680 as discriminatory and light and it's 177 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,840 tantamount to a virtual war of 178 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,000 oppression on black people. Well, this 179 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,440 war uh is another of the words in your 180 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,840 report that jumped out and hit me. I 181 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:48,160 mean, this is a war that is currently 182 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,840 under the surface. I I'm sure that the 183 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,800 great majority of British people have 184 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:56,319 absolutely no idea about these kind of 185 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:59,280 facts. But if they erupt, if this war 186 00:07:56,319 --> 00:08:01,520 erupts in the kind of riots that we have 187 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:04,000 seen in Britain before, suddenly all the 188 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,680 cameras will be there. I think it's Dr. 189 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:09,120 Martin Luther King who said riots are 190 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,639 the voices of the unheard. Uh and uh I 191 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,879 think very much what you're looking at 192 00:08:10,639 --> 00:08:15,360 is a ramping up of racism by this 193 00:08:12,879 --> 00:08:17,199 coalition government that has unleashed 194 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,560 uh resurgent levels of institutionalized 195 00:08:17,199 --> 00:08:21,919 racism in police and in criminal 196 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:24,879 justice. Uh and the media are studiously 197 00:08:21,919 --> 00:08:27,520 ignoring the real story uh which is this 198 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:30,160 mass criminalization on a scale that 199 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,159 people uh will you know will not believe 200 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,120 in relation to both African, Caribbean 201 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:37,279 and Asian communities. Now the 202 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:40,080 institutionalization is the uh in a way 203 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:42,159 the most uh serious. Yeah. An individual 204 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:45,680 police officer can be a racist. An 205 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:48,399 individual jailer uh can be a racist. 206 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:51,120 But if the institutions are pervaded 207 00:08:48,399 --> 00:08:53,279 with this poison, uh then we're really 208 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,640 in big trouble. And I was struck in your 209 00:08:53,279 --> 00:09:00,720 report by the sentences being handed out 210 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:03,760 by judges. One expects even I expect 211 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:06,720 judges at least to have better judgment 212 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,800 than that. But your uh your your figures 213 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,200 seem to suggest that they willy-nilly 214 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,279 hand out condemn punishment to black 215 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,040 people uh and lenient punishment to 216 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:16,320 white people. You know, Britain is 217 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,760 supposed to be a country that is based 218 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,480 upon the principles of fairness, 219 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,200 equality, and justice. And you expect, 220 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:25,440 don't you, that a court would be a haven 221 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:28,800 for such principles where they would be 222 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:31,040 fairly uh applied and judici judicially 223 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,720 executed. And what we what the report 224 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,080 the government's own report so we're 225 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,920 relying on government figures here which 226 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,760 I think are an underestimate but the 227 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,760 government's own report demonstrates but 228 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,320 that in that in crown court and 229 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:45,519 magistrates court it's routinely the 230 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:48,160 case that black uh uh offenders are 231 00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:50,160 given sentences uh way in excess of 232 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,240 those given for white offenders with 233 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,959 more complex criminal records more 234 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,800 extensive criminal activity who do not 235 00:09:54,959 --> 00:09:59,040 end up in jail whereas the black 236 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,120 defenders do. And the drugs question 237 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:04,560 again in your I mean I hate drugs, don't 238 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:07,760 get me wrong, but the the the idea uh 239 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:10,720 that black people are the bigger drug 240 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,320 takers is slaughtered in your report. 241 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,399 Actually, white people take more drugs 242 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,480 than black people do, but black people 243 00:10:14,399 --> 00:10:19,680 are more likely to be sent to court if 244 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:22,000 found with drugs and in court much more 245 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:23,519 likely to get a very harsh sentence. I 246 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,839 think these are the real critical 247 00:10:23,519 --> 00:10:27,839 anomalies in in relation to where we 248 00:10:25,839 --> 00:10:29,600 are. On the one hand, black people use 249 00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:33,200 less drugs than the white communities 250 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:35,680 and yet the focus of policing operations 251 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,200 is around stopping black youth. Uh and 252 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:39,120 when they are stopped and charged, as we 253 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,440 rightly said, they are more likely to be 254 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,360 sent to court. More likely it's it's as 255 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,959 if you are you and I stole a loaf of 256 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,880 bread and that's the first crime we've 257 00:10:44,959 --> 00:10:48,640 ever committed. You will get a caution. 258 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,640 I will get sent to court. That's the 259 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,320 simplest way of explaining it to the 260 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,240 majority of people. And you're 261 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:57,360 absolutely right. It's an outrageous 262 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,959 calamy that it's remaining not on the 263 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,560 news agenda, not on the political 264 00:10:58,959 --> 00:11:02,560 agenda, and we're going to have to work 265 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:04,160 hard to push that up, including you, 266 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:05,600 George, in the House of Parliament who 267 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,760 are going to have to start to press the 268 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,200 Ministry of Justice on some well- aimed 269 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:13,320 questions that I'm happy to provide. The 270 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:17,440 Ministry of Justice being an Orwellian 271 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:19,680 Orwellian term. Just lastly, yeah, is it 272 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,880 the economy stupid as Clinton once said? 273 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:27,040 Is it because the economy is crashing? 274 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:28,959 Because there is uh uh real penury 275 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,120 amongst the mass of the people Yeah. 276 00:11:28,959 --> 00:11:33,680 that there's a conscious or unconscious 277 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,519 effort to exploit racism as a response 278 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:37,720 to that crisis. Well, certainly this 279 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:39,440 coalition government is hellbent on 280 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,720 scapegoating communities, whether 281 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,560 they're Muslim communities, whether 282 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,200 they're black communities, and now we've 283 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:48,399 had the addition of Roma and Romanian 284 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,959 communities into that. I saw tales of uh 285 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:53,600 Rors being accused of stealing babies 286 00:11:50,959 --> 00:11:56,160 and all sorts of other uh uh hysterical 287 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,680 outbursts. Uh the reason for that in my 288 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,920 view is that they're seeking to distract 289 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:03,040 the populace from the architects of the 290 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:05,200 real uh uh and those really guilty for 291 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,600 uh exploiting the British economy and 292 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,040 are the casino bankers and the top 1%. 293 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,959 But in relation to cuts, it's an 294 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,360 important question because cuts to 295 00:12:10,959 --> 00:12:15,040 police officers numbers leads them to 296 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,600 face increased pressure from politicians 297 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:20,079 to meet crime targets. And when they get 298 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:22,320 into that situation, uh uh they have a 299 00:12:20,079 --> 00:12:23,600 policing called noble cause corruption 300 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,120 where they think, well, you're not 301 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,800 guilty of this, but you look slightly 302 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,560 guilty anyway, so I'm going to send you 303 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,399 through the criminal justice system. And 304 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:32,160 that's what's happening routinely. And 305 00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:34,560 as officer numbers are cut and the 306 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,079 pressure on politicians to meet crime 307 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:39,760 targets goes up, then so will 308 00:12:37,079 --> 00:12:42,240 disproportionate, bad, unprofessional, 309 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,560 racist policing increase because the 310 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,480 police uh are well aware of the fact 311 00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:48,480 that if I put a black boy in front of a 312 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,200 judge, he will convict him and send him 313 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,600 send him to jail. And therefore, they uh 314 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,000 meet their crime and arrest targets by a 315 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,600 process of fishing in a salmon pool that 316 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,519 is made up entirely of African, 317 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,839 Caribbean, and Asian people. and fill 318 00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:03,839 privatized prisons for the profit of 319 00:13:01,839 --> 00:13:05,760 those that run. Another story. Lee 320 00:13:03,839 --> 00:13:07,600 Jasper, thanks for joining us on the 321 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,200 Sputnik. After the break, we'll be 322 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,519 talking to another big British political 323 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,760 figure with strong views on race and 324 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:15,920 policing, former Conservative Minister 325 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:18,399 and MP and vicechairman of the 326 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,720 Conservative Party, Steve Norris. We'll 327 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:20,720 be right 328 00:13:23,079 --> 00:13:27,600 back. Welcome back to Sputnik. Now, race 329 00:13:25,839 --> 00:13:29,519 is not the only question mark hanging 330 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,000 over the British police. A series of 331 00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:34,079 scandals over decades have destroyed the 332 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,920 overwhelmingly benign reputation enjoyed 333 00:13:34,079 --> 00:13:38,399 by the police when I was young, and 334 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,240 Dixon of Doc Green, a polite, aunkular 335 00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:42,399 officer to whom you were encouraged to 336 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:45,120 turn if you ever had a problem or even 337 00:13:42,399 --> 00:13:47,920 just needed to ask directions. Since the 338 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,600 1970s, these scandals have dogged the 339 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,000 constabularary. And whilst their 340 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,800 reputation isn't as low as politicians 341 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,720 and journalists yet, it's headed that 342 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,720 way. Guy asked some members of the 343 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,399 British public what they thought of the 344 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,720 police. What did they think? Well, I 345 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:05,040 guess that depends on who you are. Let's 346 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:07,199 take a look. What's going on in the 347 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,480 world today? I think they do a very good 348 00:14:07,199 --> 00:14:12,880 job and they do what they can for us. I 349 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,720 do believe in that. Yeah, they was doing 350 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,560 a good job, but then what happened with 351 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,480 Mark Dugen and all of that, I thought 352 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:20,560 that was a bit racist how that all 353 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,560 happened. But apart from that, I think 354 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,560 they're doing their job. Most police 355 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,160 nowadays, not all police, I know that 356 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,160 some of them are pretty racist nowadays. 357 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:31,519 And that's why I I wouldn't really put 358 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,760 my trust into police. 359 00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:36,079 Yeah, that's that's true. That's true. 360 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,320 If anything happens, we will rely on the 361 00:14:36,079 --> 00:14:40,639 police. So, that's what I'm I'm 362 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,240 interested. They're good people. I think 363 00:14:40,639 --> 00:14:45,519 they can make like obviously a bit more 364 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:48,399 effort and stuff. Uh I don't think 365 00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:50,079 there's enough police at night and there 366 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:52,320 ought to be more at night than in like 367 00:14:50,079 --> 00:14:54,800 the daytime. I do think police do a good 368 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,880 job. I do. Sometimes I do trust them. 369 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,720 Sometimes I do think maybe the races 370 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,079 they can be a bit unfair but at the end 371 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,760 of the day I do think they do a good 372 00:15:00,079 --> 00:15:03,199 job. No, I don't trust them. As a young 373 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,519 person, I don't I think they 374 00:15:03,199 --> 00:15:07,680 discriminate against young people. So 375 00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:09,519 they're doing very very good job. If 376 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,040 there is any accident, they will come in 377 00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:14,160 a minute. You know, fight 10 minutes, 378 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,240 they will come. 379 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,399 Steve Norris twice ran for London mayor 380 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,920 for the Conservative Party. If he'd won, 381 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:21,839 people would have been surprised at just 382 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,240 how challenging his policing policies 383 00:15:21,839 --> 00:15:26,800 would have been and how much he hated 384 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:29,600 racism and still does. Steve Norris, 385 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:32,320 welcome to Sputnik. As you've seen, 386 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,959 we've been asking Londoners what they 387 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,959 think of uh policing as an institution. 388 00:15:34,959 --> 00:15:39,040 And it very much depends who you are, 389 00:15:36,959 --> 00:15:41,920 what age you are, and I'm sorry to say 390 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:44,880 what color you are, but you once said to 391 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:47,880 me when we were in parliament together, 392 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,920 uh that the police were the last great 393 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,279 unreformed British institution. You 394 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,560 still hold to that? I think I actually 395 00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:54,639 said it was the last great reformed 396 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,839 mafia family. Great unreformed mafia 397 00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:59,360 family. Uh but you know she did tried to 398 00:15:57,839 --> 00:16:00,560 exculpate you. Yeah. A very decent of 399 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,480 you. But no, I'll tell you I'll tell you 400 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,680 exactly why. Because um the police have 401 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,440 been very very good at uh pushing away 402 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,519 governments, local governments and 403 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,920 central governments hiding behind this 404 00:16:09,519 --> 00:16:14,000 issue of operational responsibility. You 405 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,560 know, you can dictate policy, but you 406 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:19,440 can't dictate my operational uh 407 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,680 priorities. Now, uh if it ever came to a 408 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,839 stage where a politician said arrest him 409 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,440 first before her, you know, that would 410 00:16:23,839 --> 00:16:27,360 be quite wrong. something that you and I 411 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,040 would desperately dislike. No police 412 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,360 service should ever be run on those 413 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,040 lines. But what this is masking is quite 414 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,639 a different issue. You know, when for 415 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,560 example, just ordinary people talk about 416 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:38,480 saying, shouldn't we have more police on 417 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,920 the street? Wouldn't it be better if the 418 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,199 police actually engage more directly 419 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,800 with the community? Maybe they could 420 00:16:41,199 --> 00:16:44,480 build some trust when the community 421 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,720 could see that they were the vast 422 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,320 majority of them perfectly decent people 423 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,680 where police themselves might get a 424 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,759 little bit closer to what the issues 425 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,440 were among, you know, ethnic minority 426 00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:55,360 communities and so on and with young 427 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,120 people. Well, then they'll say, "Oh, no, 428 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,959 you can't tell us that because that's a 429 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,480 operational matter. We we like our 430 00:16:58,959 --> 00:17:02,320 little cars, you know, buzzing down the 431 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,680 street da da and playing games." And 432 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,600 I've always thought those cups of tea 433 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,120 must be getting really chilled in the 434 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,520 station for half of those guys, you 435 00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:11,360 know. Um, what you see so often is that 436 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,640 actually it's the policeman who's parked 437 00:17:11,360 --> 00:17:13,679 on the double yellow lines with the 438 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,760 doors open getting a couple of 439 00:17:13,679 --> 00:17:18,000 hamburgers. You know, it's the policeman 440 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,600 who treats you as if you're guilty 441 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,439 before you even opened your mouth. It's 442 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,120 the policeman who pushes you around by 443 00:17:21,439 --> 00:17:24,799 the wave of the hand. I know they've got 444 00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:26,959 to be assertive. I know that's part of 445 00:17:24,799 --> 00:17:28,880 the job, but they take assertion to 446 00:17:26,959 --> 00:17:31,120 levels which are really very unhealthy. 447 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,400 I think unless we start cracking that, 448 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,919 then the problems that you've been 449 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,000 talking about are going to get worse. 450 00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:37,280 They really are. And we had police and 451 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,080 crime commissioners, you know, it's a 452 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:42,320 kind of it's a pretty feeble attempt to 453 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,160 solve the problem. Very, very feeble. We 454 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,799 still haven't The public voted with 455 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,520 their feet in droves, not voting. Yeah. 456 00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:51,520 Well, yeah. As we saw from Guyatri's Vox 457 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,440 Pops, it kind of depends what age you 458 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,760 are and what color you are. But these 459 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,240 scandals that have accumulated since the 460 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:00,000 1970s, there was the minor strike, there 461 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,400 was the Hillsborough disaster, the 462 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,919 Steven Lawrence murder and how that was 463 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,600 mishandled. The Mark Dugen seems to 464 00:18:05,919 --> 00:18:09,600 still be an issue even today. That one 465 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,440 is obviously the one that's most living 466 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,679 on the street. They That's the most 467 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,280 salient aspect of the police, the racist 468 00:18:13,679 --> 00:18:16,799 element of the police. Not that that 469 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,880 triggered the London riots, of course, 470 00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:22,480 two years ago. Absolutely. The slaying 471 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:24,000 of Mark Dugen in Tottenham began riots 472 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,039 throughout the length and breadth almost 473 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,840 of the of the country. These scandals as 474 00:18:27,039 --> 00:18:31,200 they accumulate are chipping away very 475 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,480 substantially at the police's 476 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,760 credibility. Yeah, I think they are. And 477 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,360 and actually I don't think this is 478 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,440 confined to ethnic minorities now. I 479 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:39,919 think what's worse is that you know that 480 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,640 that you know ordinary white middle 481 00:18:39,919 --> 00:18:44,000 class you know suburban citizens are 482 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,280 beginning to get the impression that you 483 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,880 can't trust the police to the same 484 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,880 degree. And that's terrifying. That 485 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,559 really is. and not least because you 486 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,000 know I I'm sure the vast majority of 487 00:18:50,559 --> 00:18:54,640 them are just you trying to do a 488 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,640 difficult job. Nobody ever said being in 489 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:59,440 policing was going to be easy but there 490 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,360 is that sufficient element where we see 491 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,200 time and time again that we're being 492 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:05,520 presented with a story which is simply 493 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,760 not the truth. I mean a Hillsborough of 494 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,919 course you know we now know um the 495 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,080 falsification of thousands of statements 496 00:19:09,919 --> 00:19:13,919 substantial falsification not of one 497 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,240 person's evidence but of hundreds and 498 00:19:13,919 --> 00:19:17,760 hundreds of statements you know that uh 499 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,720 that's the kind of evidence that you 500 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,640 know even normal guardian reading um but 501 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,960 you're a Liverpool man of course you I 502 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,880 am indeed I am indeed it matters a lot 503 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,039 to us because we were treated the people 504 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:31,039 of the city and you know people who live 505 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:32,880 there were treated as if they were de 506 00:19:31,039 --> 00:19:35,200 facto guilty because they came from 507 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,799 Liverpool it is probably their fault. 508 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,200 What emerged was that the police had 509 00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:40,960 actually been fabricating statements, 510 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,880 interfering with statements to give an 511 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,559 impression which justified their own 512 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,720 actions. And you know, I think that's 513 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:48,960 that's the kind of issue we've got. Even 514 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,840 the chief whip in the conservative 515 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,919 government lost his job in very highly 516 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,600 contentious circumstances. We can't go 517 00:19:53,919 --> 00:19:59,039 into them all because there are still 518 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:01,919 live proceedings in the courts. But uh 519 00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:04,559 uh if if if the chief whip of the 520 00:20:01,919 --> 00:20:06,480 government can claim that the police set 521 00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:08,720 him up, yeah, whether he's right or 522 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,640 wrong about that, then what about a 523 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,799 young black boy in Brixton? What about 524 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,559 the culture that the police apparently 525 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:16,400 developed of just taking a bung every 526 00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:18,160 time they rang a newspaper to tell them 527 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,760 about a little tidbit that actually 528 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,440 they'd uncovered, you know, in the 529 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,960 course of their duty, they were 530 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,039 committing a criminal offense, but it 531 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,559 was apparently absolutely widespread. 532 00:20:25,039 --> 00:20:28,400 And you're seeing that in the dozens of 533 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:29,679 people who are now being pulled in. Some 534 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,000 of them journalists, some of them police 535 00:20:29,679 --> 00:20:34,640 officers, some some have plead guilty. 536 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:38,320 So we can talk about their case. We had 537 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:41,360 journalists who were uh uh being paid by 538 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,600 uh or rather police officers and uh and 539 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:46,159 other security officials being paid 540 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,919 money by newspapers to give the 541 00:20:46,159 --> 00:20:50,159 whereabouts of the queen. That's right. 542 00:20:47,919 --> 00:20:51,919 And other members of the royal family in 543 00:20:50,159 --> 00:20:53,679 exchange for money. It's intolerable. 544 00:20:51,919 --> 00:20:55,919 And I think it just sort of it underlies 545 00:20:53,679 --> 00:20:57,600 this issue that there's one law for you 546 00:20:55,919 --> 00:21:00,480 and there's one law for me as a police 547 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,159 officer and that law is canteen culture. 548 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,000 Look after your mates. Do whatever you 549 00:21:02,159 --> 00:21:05,600 have to do. Say whatever you have to 550 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,000 say. You know, and look, if you do have 551 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,760 to if you really are in the headlights, 552 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,080 if you're about to be convicted, don't 553 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,840 worry. We'll let you retire on full 554 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,280 pension and then say, "Well, we can't 555 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,320 prosecute you. You're no longer a police 556 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,600 officer." Like life on Mars. Absolutely. 557 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,480 Imagine the only thing I liked about 558 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,400 that was the car. It was a wonderful uh 559 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,080 and a good camel over coat. You and I 560 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,919 could have worn that. Absolutely. No, 561 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:32,559 the 1970s gets a bum wrap in in in my 562 00:21:29,919 --> 00:21:35,919 opinion. But the unfortunately you're 563 00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:39,440 not the mayor of London, though uh twice 564 00:21:35,919 --> 00:21:41,520 you nearly did become so. Uh if you were 565 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,280 the mayor of London and thus in charge 566 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,120 of the Metropolitan Police, what would 567 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,600 you do about the Metropolitan Police? I 568 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:49,679 take a lot more active interest in what 569 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,000 uh the commissioner is actually doing 570 00:21:49,679 --> 00:21:54,240 about you know this issue because it's 571 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,559 huge and it's it's in danger of becoming 572 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,000 endemic having maybe only started with a 573 00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:59,919 few you know that idea that there only 574 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,400 has to be one bad apple in a barrel and 575 00:21:59,919 --> 00:22:04,159 it spreads everywhere. Um you know what 576 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,840 Boris Johnson did almost by accident was 577 00:22:04,159 --> 00:22:07,679 to change the commissioner. What he 578 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,960 actually showed, again I suspect almost 579 00:22:07,679 --> 00:22:11,760 by accident, was that the mayor of 580 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,520 London does have a very substantial real 581 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,440 power in terms of the way the 582 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,360 Metropolitan Police manages itself. And 583 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,679 I would start with the Met. It's by far 584 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:21,120 the biggest forcedeed and it's where, 585 00:22:19,679 --> 00:22:22,640 you know, we can stand more than half 586 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,480 the problem in the country is here. 587 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,240 Absolutely. I'm afraid that's true. And 588 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,400 therefore, I would literally take much 589 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,720 more practical interest in what are you 590 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,039 doing, Bernard Hogan? How to sort this 591 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,039 out? What sort of actions are you taking 592 00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:37,440 to prevent officers being able to walk 593 00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:39,200 away uh into retirement with a cozy 594 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,799 pension? What are you doing to set up 595 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,120 the kind of rules that means we can 596 00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:44,720 crosscheck about statements that we know 597 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,840 when people are, you know, making 598 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,080 statements that they're doing so 599 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,480 authoritatively? What are you even doing 600 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:53,360 about technology? For God's sake, how 601 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,039 many times not still using notebooks and 602 00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,640 pencils? There's a thing out there. It's 603 00:22:55,039 --> 00:22:58,240 big now. It's called the internet and 604 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,679 apparently you can send quite reliable 605 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,880 messages on it. Can be duplicated 606 00:22:59,679 --> 00:23:04,159 endlessly, you I mean there are some 607 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,600 really extraordinary things still 608 00:23:04,159 --> 00:23:06,880 happening in the Metropolitan Police 609 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,320 which I really do think need to be 610 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,080 rooted out. Steve Norris, thanks for 611 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,080 joining us. Thanks very much indeed. 612 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,080 Pleasure. 613 00:23:13,679 --> 00:23:16,960 Well, this is your part of the show 614 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:19,320 where you tell us what you think through 615 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:22,960 our social media portal 616 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:25,280 RT Sputnik Gatri. Is it fast and furious 617 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,039 still on the internet? It's completely 618 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,240 polarizing. When I ask them the question 619 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:32,159 about racism, whether Britain is racist, 620 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,440 one says yes, the one says no. It's very 621 00:23:32,159 --> 00:23:37,360 extreme. Kelt Islam says that the UK is 622 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,320 better than most European countries. And 623 00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:41,919 that's for sure. I coming from the 624 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,360 Netherlands definitely agree with that. 625 00:23:41,919 --> 00:23:44,799 I agree with that also. I mean, 626 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:46,960 notwithstanding what we've heard on this 627 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:49,200 show, I I agree with that. Doesn't mean 628 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,400 it's good. It's very bad. It's just 629 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,159 worse elsewhere. As I as I always say, 630 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,799 if you think England's racist, you've 631 00:23:54,159 --> 00:23:59,039 never lived in France. Imagine how how 632 00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:01,760 worse it is in other countries. Yas 633 00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:03,600 Khalit answers that Britain today is 634 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,080 less racist from the time my parents 635 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,840 arrived in Britain, but increasingly 636 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,919 Islamophobic thanks to the fear 637 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,159 perpetuated in the media. Good point. 638 00:24:09,919 --> 00:24:13,760 Yeah, indeed. Emmy Wyatt says, "I think 639 00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:15,760 Britain has become more racist in the 640 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,679 last 10 years and less tolerant, more 641 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:20,400 blatantly nasty." So, a complete 642 00:24:17,679 --> 00:24:22,760 opposite. Yeah. Well, as the economy 643 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:25,440 dips further and further, racism 644 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,120 ineluctibly rises and politicians have 645 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,760 an interest in stoking it because 646 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:32,400 there's votes in it. As we build vilders 647 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:35,360 in the Netherlands or the front national 648 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:37,600 in France or right-wing politicians of 649 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:40,640 various parties here in Britain, they 650 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:44,320 know there's political money in racism. 651 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,679 On policing, Manoli Morati replies there 652 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,679 that there's definitely room for 653 00:24:45,679 --> 00:24:49,679 improvement, but the UK police conduct 654 00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:51,640 efficient work and have a tolerant 655 00:24:49,679 --> 00:24:54,640 approach compared to other European 656 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,640 forces. To which Cherona then says, "In 657 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,880 my experience, no. Many people have lost 658 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:02,240 confidence and that they'll even bother 659 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:04,960 to turn up." So very very contrasting, 660 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,919 diverse, polarized. Again, of course, 661 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:11,039 it's on Twitter. I can't tell the age or 662 00:25:07,919 --> 00:25:13,679 ethnicity of the all of the people uh 663 00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:17,200 writing there, but uh it's been the 664 00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:20,080 story of your uh research into this that 665 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,799 the younger you are and the blacker you 666 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,720 are and especially the more Islamic you 667 00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:26,799 are, the more you've got a problem with 668 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,520 the British police. Yeah, I definitely 669 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:32,400 conclude that from my encounters on the 670 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,400 streets. Well, unfortunately, that's all 671 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,200 we've got time for today. But you know 672 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,880 how to reach us at 673 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,120 rt_sputnik. That's it from me, guyatri. 674 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,540 And from me, George Galloway, it's been 675 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:53,319 marvelous. 676 00:25:42,540 --> 00:25:53,319 [Music]