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uh

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welcome to sputnik orbiting the world

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with me george galloway and me gayatri

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the united states has extended its

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bombing campaign against isis from iraq

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to syria deciding yet again to dispense

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with the inconvenience of a u.n

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resolution authorizing military action

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washington has assembled another

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coalition of the killing including

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france and various arab gulf states

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prime among those gulf states is saudi

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arabia that bastion of liberty and human

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rights in fact as we discussed here

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recently the saudis could probably teach

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that evil cancerous band of head

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choppers isis a thing or two about head

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shopping the kingdom decapitated 26

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people in the month of august alone

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there is no doubt that isis must be

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destroyed but as recent history shows

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military action by the west has a habit

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of deepening crises in the middle east

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instead of ending them in fact for the

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past decade and more of invasion and

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occupation in the region we've had one

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never-ending crisis discussing this with

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me i'm delighted to see his top author

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and journalist on the guardian my old

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pal seamus milne but before that gayatri

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asked london what they thought do you

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think britain should get involved in a

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war in syria

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no

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definitely not uh no abs absolutely not

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i'm absolutely pacifist and i'm against

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all kind of war there's no point looking

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to syria and all these middle eastern

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countries to see the problem the problem

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is actually right here in england and

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america with all these ignorant people

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we don't need nobody i don't need no

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british i don't need no american i don't

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need no european union in my country

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all i need is asia and we can survive

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our country the regional solution yeah

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we want our country to be in our own

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hands seamus welcome to the sputnik

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again um the british government has

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pulled back from involvement in the

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attack on

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syria but has decided to join the attack

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on iraq why the difference well i think

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the crucial thing has been the role of

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the labour party and the labour party

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leadership which of course itself is

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responding to public opinion

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in britain

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ed miliband has made the distinction

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between

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joining the attack on iraq because of

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the request from the iraqi government

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and intervening in syria where of course

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there's been no such request

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and

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the syrian government had said that any

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intervention would be an act of

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aggression of course there's no really a

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legal figure for the attack on syria

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despite the attempts to conjure one up

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in the last few days

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i think it and labour's position which

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was

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set out really last year when the

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british parliament uh blocked the attack

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on syria

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over the chemical weapons issue

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you know it's a response to overwhelming

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public opinion not only in britain but

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throughout the world and throughout the

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western world including in the united

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states

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which has opposed the continuing attempt

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by the western powers to intervene

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constantly redraw and control the middle

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east and its resources and of course

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they've used the fact

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that isis is a particularly repugnant

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organization and it's beheading of uh

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british and american journalists and aid

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workers uh of course in response as they

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see it to the intervention by the us and

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britain as a way of trying to change and

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shift the balance of of opinion in the

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us and britain and to some extent that's

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been successful but it's very very

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fragile and the fact that uh there's

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been no vote in britain to support the

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attacks in syria that have been going on

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is i think a measure of that

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the conservative journalist indeed a

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colleague of yours

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for a long time on the guardian simon

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jenkins was arguing on the bbc this week

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that ultimately these are issues that

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have to be resolved by the people

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themselves in the countries and the the

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region he's right about that isn't he

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absolutely right and this is the

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underlying

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nonsense of this continuing

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endless war on terror that has been

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going on really not only since the 9 11

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attacks when it was officially launched

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by george bush and led to the

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catastrophic invasion occupation of

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afghanistan first then iraq this is the

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the obvious lesson that cannot be

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learned and won't be learned and i think

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it comes down to the fact that the

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united states and its allies want to

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find a way to control the middle east

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and its resources but are unable to do

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so it's obviously the case that these

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interventions time and again have led to

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the opposite of what they were sold as

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they were supposed to be wars on terror

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but they spread terror it was supposed

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to defeat al qaeda in afghanistan and

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defeat the taliban had exactly the

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opposite effect al qaeda spread all over

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the um middle east and the white and

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north africa and the uh the region uh

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the uh taliban is of course coming back

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in in big measure uh in afghanistan

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itself iraq was a catastrophe uh there

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was no al-qaeda or isis when the united

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states and britain and their allies

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invaded iraq it was as the iranians have

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said a frankenstein monster created by

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this invasion and occupation each

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invasion occupation each intervention

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and of course we're not even talking

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about syria about syria somalia yemen

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pakistan where the interventions have

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been going on in a less dramatic way in

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recent years they've every single time

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led to consequences which are disastrous

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for the people of the region and also

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for the peoples who of the country is

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making those interventions what's needed

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of course is a regional solution an

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attempt to bring together the powers in

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the region that have been backing

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different sides in dealing with the

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aftermath of the catastrophe of iraq

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and and come to a regional settlement i

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think that clearly is possible uh but

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the united states and the western powers

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have other ideas uh the countries that

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you mentioned yemen and somalia those

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are those are part of the seven

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countries muslim countries as it happens

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that obama now has bombed in the 60s the

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peace the nobel peace laureate seven

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countries in six years i mean this is

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the endless war i mean

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barack obama was elected to bring it to

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an end and he made

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moves in that direction he pulled out of

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iraq

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he wound down the afghan war but now the

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logic of the imperial position of the

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united states in the region is once

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again reasserting itself with yet

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another intervention which will

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certainly have disastrous consequences

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we know that there will be terrorism

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that there wasn't wouldn't have been

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otherwise here and in other parts of the

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world as a result and it won't lead to

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the solution of the isis problem uh

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no doubt is isis will be not back

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militarily that's for sure but it'll

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mutate and spread in other forms and it

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will gain credibility it will gain

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credibility from this attack not the

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very you know the opposite i met a very

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senior former cabinet minister mr

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blair's cabinet a man who was gung ho

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for all these previous wars

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in the street this morning i shan't name

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him as he was in his pajamas

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uh but what did he decide

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but the point that he made was i thought

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a very profound one he said

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russia

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china

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iran

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and the west all have a common interest

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in defeating this

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ever mutating

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menace of fanaticism and savagery

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why is it beyond

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international diplomacy therefore to get

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them all on the same page that's true

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and i think you know that is you know

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part of the story of how this could be

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settled in a different way with the

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region at its heart a regional

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settlement and agreement at the heart of

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a wider international

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agreement but i think that it's clear

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and it's clear from barack obama's

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speech in the united nations that the

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u.s and their allies don't want to do

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that it was he made a very very fierce

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attack on russia and its policies in

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ukraine uh and in other parts of the

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world and there's no no question that

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the u.s and the west are now

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increasingly winding up the

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confrontation with russia

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even as they're starting to make

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some kind of new kind of relationship

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with iran but

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i think what's you know

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you can look forward and see out of this

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conflict and this intervention which

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will definitely spread you know a much

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wider conflagration in the region and

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beyond as a result of it including

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countries like turkey moving in um to

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you know the ungoverned spaces or the uh

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you know the rebel dominated parts of

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iraq and syria and other countries as a

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result iran also may become more

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directly involved so that's you know

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that's not good for anyone what's needed

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instead is a is a settlement which you

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know gives every part of the story and

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the powers in the region

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an interest in settling it and bringing

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this

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monstrous you know uh frankenstein

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monster to an end

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is it uh one theory plausible that

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the real reason why they can't reach

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agreement with the other big powers

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they can't just strengthen those who are

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already fighting isis they must try to

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do it themselves because they haven't

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actually abandoned their goal of

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toppling uh president bashar in damascus

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yeah i mean

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it's it's clear that you know the united

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states

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and and britain and france were

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supporting the rebels in syria from very

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early on covertly and then more and more

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overtly and one of the impacts of this

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uh

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intervention in syria that the united

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states is leading now could well be

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the creation of a more credible

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anti-assad

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grouping in syria but it won't be any

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kind of um

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democratically led

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progressive kind of outfit as people

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hope i think in other parts of the world

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and so of course it will be a threat to

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the assad regime shameless the western

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leaders keep on saying that they won't

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send in boots on the ground do you think

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they will end up sending anywhere there

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are boots on the ground it's just they

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rebrand the boots i mean they're now

279
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special advisors special forces

280
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there are 1 600 u.s special advisors in

281
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,760
in iraq now they're just uh

282
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,440
they're u.s soldiers um that they just

283
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,600
don't call they're not combat troops so

284
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it gets given another name that will

285
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,920
clearly be expanded uh there will

286
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,320
clearly be other forces brought in

287
00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:05,040
obama has been reluctant to do that but

288
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,720
the forces in washington uh pressing for

289
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,480
that intervention have clearly

290
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,000
overwhelmed that caution that he had

291
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,920
originally not that he wasn't

292
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,440
intervening he was doing so but it's

293
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,200
pushed him clearly beyond where he

294
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,240
wanted to go

295
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,920
but the

296
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the prospect of all this i think is

297
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,399
deeply alarming and for people here in

298
00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:24,240
this part of the world who think well

299
00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:25,920
you know this group is vile and

300
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,160
repulsive and we need to do something to

301
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,600
stop it i think unfortunately it's not

302
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,959
going to do that it's not going to have

303
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,720
the outcome that they want there's going

304
00:11:30,959 --> 00:11:35,839
to be many more brutal killings much

305
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,519
more vile ethnic cleansing because this

306
00:11:35,839 --> 00:11:39,040
is not the way that this problem is

307
00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:40,959
going to be settled it's only going to

308
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,519
exacerbate it it's going to spread it

309
00:11:40,959 --> 00:11:45,760
the western world has to learn

310
00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:47,519
that attempts to continue a

311
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,440
semi-imperial relationship with the

312
00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:51,760
middle east and the wider muslim world

313
00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,240
will not work it will lead continually

314
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,920
to a backlash that will damage those

315
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,240
making the interventions on a much

316
00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,480
bigger scale the people of the region

317
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,040
and it's really a generational problem

318
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:05,440
that we're living through and somehow uh

319
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,639
the power of public opinion here and in

320
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,959
the united states and other parts of the

321
00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:10,800
world needs to be exercised again to

322
00:12:08,959 --> 00:12:13,519
restrain this process because it is

323
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,600
leading again to disaster seamus man

324
00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:18,959
thanks very much coming up after the

325
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:21,200
break britain nearly broke in two and

326
00:12:18,959 --> 00:12:23,760
we'll be discussing with john white just

327
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,839
why it didn't but might yet don't miss

328
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,839
it

329
00:12:29,519 --> 00:12:34,880
welcome back to sputnik the referendum

330
00:12:32,079 --> 00:12:37,760
on scottish independence on 18 september

331
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:40,079
saw an unprecedented 3.6 million people

332
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,399
in scotland cast a vote out of a

333
00:12:40,079 --> 00:12:45,680
population of just 5.3 million

334
00:12:42,399 --> 00:12:48,000
translating to a turnout of 85 percent

335
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:49,920
of the electorate quite remarkable it

336
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,399
followed one of the most exhaustive and

337
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,800
dramatic election campaigns in british

338
00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:56,399
political history believe me i have the

339
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,519
scars to prove it

340
00:12:56,399 --> 00:13:03,200
after which 55 voted to remain with the

341
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:05,200
united kingdom and 45 to leave it

342
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,360
however if you thought the matter was

343
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,360
settled you'd be wrong

344
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,600
in the aftermath conspiracy theories

345
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,000
alleging a rick ballot biased media

346
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,320
coverage and other ill deeds have given

347
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,800
way to renew determination by the yes

348
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:21,600
campaign to make independence the key

349
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,760
issue in scottish politics going forward

350
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:26,160
the s p and other independent supporting

351
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,399
parties are claiming an upsurge in new

352
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:31,360
members since the referendum and with

353
00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:33,760
the formation of the self-proclaimed 45

354
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,680
movement named after the 45 percent who

355
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,399
voted yes but also drawing an

356
00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:40,880
association with the 45 jacobite

357
00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:42,800
rebellion in 1745

358
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,959
it's clear that politics in scotland

359
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,839
won't be returning to normal anytime

360
00:13:44,959 --> 00:13:47,519
soon

361
00:13:45,839 --> 00:13:49,440
joining me as i weighed into this

362
00:13:47,519 --> 00:13:52,079
marathon i'm delighted to welcome

363
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,639
political commentator and writer john

364
00:13:52,079 --> 00:13:57,279
white but before that gayatri took to

365
00:13:54,639 --> 00:13:59,360
the streets of london red gloves and all

366
00:13:57,279 --> 00:14:01,199
to find out what people thought there we

367
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,279
had to put up with english mps the shrop

368
00:14:01,199 --> 00:14:05,199
and scottish question times

369
00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:06,480
so i don't care that they're quenching

370
00:14:05,199 --> 00:14:08,320
and moaning like a bunch of little

371
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,040
englanders we're from dundee so they all

372
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,040
voted for yes

373
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,600
i think it would have been a very small

374
00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:19,600
britain not great britain little britain

375
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,839
this is britain now if it had gone it

376
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,800
would come

377
00:14:21,839 --> 00:14:24,959
and then we would have had to collect

378
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:28,079
the pieces and bring it back

379
00:14:24,959 --> 00:14:31,440
it was an enormous cleavage john uh you

380
00:14:28,079 --> 00:14:33,920
and i were both there you uh analyzing

381
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,600
and theorizing i

382
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:39,360
virtually hand to hand fighting

383
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:42,720
political fighting on the front line

384
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:44,639
it was a sharper polarization as i have

385
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,079
ever known people

386
00:14:44,639 --> 00:14:47,760
hated each other

387
00:14:46,079 --> 00:14:50,399
at least for a moment

388
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:53,040
in my case quite a lot of people hate me

389
00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:55,600
still judging by my twitter feed got

390
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,639
quite vicious why was the cleavage so

391
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,000
deep

392
00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:00,240
well in the words of oscar wilde

393
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,079
patriotism is the virtue of the vicious

394
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,160
and i think we saw that come to the fore

395
00:15:02,079 --> 00:15:05,839
during this campaign but i think the key

396
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,560
word in your remarks at the start of

397
00:15:05,839 --> 00:15:10,399
this package was unprecedented it was

398
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,720
unprecedented first and foremost for the

399
00:15:10,399 --> 00:15:14,639
stakes involved were talking about the

400
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,120
prospect of breaking up a 300 year old

401
00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:18,639
political union so it became a zero-sum

402
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,560
game in that respect it was

403
00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,880
unprecedented as you say for the turnout

404
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,199
85 percent which was massive of a

405
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,800
population of 5.3 million people 3.6

406
00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:28,720
million casting a vote i was

407
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,160
unprecedented i think also because of

408
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,320
the immense

409
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,560
nature of the yes campaign i mean in the

410
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,880
final two weeks running up to the vote i

411
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,639
got the sense in some parts of scotland

412
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,480
especially working class communities

413
00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:42,639
that there was a democratic insurgency

414
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,040
taking place from below and i think it

415
00:15:42,639 --> 00:15:46,800
rode a wave of anti-politics which was

416
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,959
given political expression by the yes

417
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,399
campaign but for me the most important

418
00:15:48,959 --> 00:15:52,639
aspect to this referendum was the

419
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:54,639
collapse of labor in scotland i mean the

420
00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:56,079
better together campaign

421
00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:57,600
if you wanted to write a manual on

422
00:15:56,079 --> 00:15:59,440
everything not to do in a political

423
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,199
campaign you would come up with better

424
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,800
together the man who led aleister

425
00:16:01,199 --> 00:16:05,040
darling is a perfect example of a

426
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,120
first-rate second-rate man

427
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,199
the decision by labour to join into a

428
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,279
campaign with the tories will go down in

429
00:16:09,199 --> 00:16:13,040
infamy i think almost on a par with

430
00:16:11,279 --> 00:16:14,560
ramsey mcdonald the labour leader's

431
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,600
decision to enter a national government

432
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,279
with the tories and liberals in 1931

433
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,040
but interestingly

434
00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:22,800
rather than resolve the issue all it

435
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,480
succeeded in doing is kicking over a

436
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,079
constitutional hornet's nest which is

437
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,160
reverberated right across the united

438
00:16:26,079 --> 00:16:31,279
kingdom well we'll come to what it means

439
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,480
for the united kingdom uh in a minute

440
00:16:31,279 --> 00:16:34,399
and

441
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,519
gordon brown

442
00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:37,440
had to be

443
00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:40,480
brought back from the

444
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:43,040
living political debt uh otherwise they

445
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,120
would have lost the referendum ed

446
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,120
miliband didn't even acknowledge his

447
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,440
existence in the campaign

448
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,680
uh in his speech to the labour

449
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,759
conference this week

450
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,160
if not for gordon brown i'm absolutely

451
00:16:53,759 --> 00:16:57,120
certain that the result would have been

452
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,279
yes

453
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,600
uh and i speak as someone who

454
00:16:59,279 --> 00:17:02,720
played a part in the in the victory

455
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,680
myself

456
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,959
um

457
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,000
the

458
00:17:04,959 --> 00:17:11,199
collapse of scottish labor was most

459
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:13,839
pronounced amongst the 20 percent of

460
00:17:11,199 --> 00:17:16,880
irish catholic scots

461
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:20,640
who had traditionally been virtually 90

462
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:22,959
percent labor for generations for scores

463
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,480
of years why did that happen

464
00:17:22,959 --> 00:17:26,559
well i think there's been a more

465
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,319
increased assimilation of the irish

466
00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:29,760
immigrant community in scotland over

467
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,799
many many years it's not the same as it

468
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,640
was in 1930s and 1920s but when you talk

469
00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:36,320
about gordon brown's role i mean if you

470
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,360
were jim baxter holding the midfield

471
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,600
together

472
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:41,120
facing defeat gordon brown was dennis

473
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,880
law coming on the last minute of extra

474
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:45,039
time to nick the winner and the fact

475
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,400
that he's been so abruptly and blatantly

476
00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:48,080
airbrushed from history history of

477
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,600
labour which we saw at the labour party

478
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,360
conference when he wasn't you know even

479
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,039
on the stage with all the dignitaries

480
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,039
from scottish labour that tells you a

481
00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:56,720
lot about the state of the labour party

482
00:17:55,039 --> 00:17:59,679
it's really it seems to have collapsed

483
00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,200
in on itself but interestingly i think

484
00:17:59,679 --> 00:18:03,120
the scottish national party were very

485
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,440
clever in how they posited this campaign

486
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:07,440
they called it civic nationalism they

487
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,440
they tried to they never felt very civic

488
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,760
to me exactly they tried to maintain it

489
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,200
was an inclusive political project which

490
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,400
obviously we know nationalism by

491
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,160
definition

492
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,240
definition is exclusive but they were

493
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,080
very very very clever in how they sold

494
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,760
it and i think a lot of people bought

495
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,919
into that idea i mean if you think of

496
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,200
the sultan the soul tie was waved as a

497
00:18:23,919 --> 00:18:26,880
progressive symbol throughout this

498
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,640
campaign and if anybody knows the

499
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,000
history of the saltire it's as much a

500
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,520
reactionary symbol for an

501
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,080
anti-imperialist or anti-colonialist

502
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,000
such as yourself as the union jack but

503
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,559
this was all airbrushed and it was the

504
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,160
saltire was this flag of progress and i

505
00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:41,200
think unfortunately especially on the

506
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,880
left

507
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,080
socialism in scotland has given way to

508
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,280
parochialism

509
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,039
they're now

510
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,880
talking about continuing the fight they

511
00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:51,440
had earlier said it would be dead for a

512
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,799
generation if it did not pass but now

513
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,320
they're saying they can't rule out

514
00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:57,360
having another go in five years time

515
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,160
and

516
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,720
some

517
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,039
slightly dangerous risky

518
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,080
ideas are being floated now by the yes

519
00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:07,600
campaign

520
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:10,240
a unilateral declaration of independence

521
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,799
achieving independence by the mere act

522
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,840
of electing a majority of snp

523
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:16,000
mps

524
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,840
do these ideas have any legs

525
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,600
they certainly do amongst us an element

526
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,760
of the yes campaign as you mentioned the

527
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,440
45 group which is a reactionary turn in

528
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,200
response to the vote given that two

529
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,200
million people living in scotland voted

530
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,799
no we do live in a democracy after all

531
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,320
but they're not accepting the result so

532
00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:32,160
the yes campaign is determined at this

533
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,880
point to keep going there's going to be

534
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,520
a a proliferation of new parties on the

535
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,200
left new permutations new coalitions etc

536
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,960
and independence will be the key issue

537
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,799
around which they will all revolve so

538
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,760
this issue is going to consume scottish

539
00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:45,600
politics

540
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,440
for quite some time but it won't be led

541
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,200
by alex salmon this time do you think

542
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,039
that will make a difference

543
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,240
no i think nicola sturgeon is is is

544
00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:54,000
obviously going to be the new leader of

545
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,400
the snp alex almond who fell on his

546
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,160
sword the day after the vote he resigned

547
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,320
he added quite a shakespearean quality

548
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,400
to the whole affair but nicolas sturgeon

549
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,320
i think is alex salmond in a skirt to be

550
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,480
honest let's move on to what it means

551
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,559
for the rest of the country because if

552
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,400
gordon brown played that decisive role

553
00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:12,400
that we both think he played

554
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:15,440
the message he delivered in playing that

555
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:18,320
role namely that there would be other

556
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,799
more powerful

557
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:24,960
instruments devolved to the scottish

558
00:20:20,799 --> 00:20:26,559
parliament uh divo max super devo max as

559
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,559
i called it

560
00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:31,039
it looks doubtful now whether that's

561
00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:34,159
going to be delivered at least on the

562
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:36,159
timetable uh that the three party

563
00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:38,320
leaders promised that's also very

564
00:20:36,159 --> 00:20:39,679
dangerous playing with fire isn't it

565
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,280
yeah well i think it's playing with fire

566
00:20:39,679 --> 00:20:42,720
in a sense that if you start passing out

567
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,799
more uh

568
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,480
powers to different parts of the country

569
00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:48,159
then you will end up with that race to

570
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,679
the bottom that we warned against with

571
00:20:48,159 --> 00:20:51,600
regard to the possibility of

572
00:20:49,679 --> 00:20:54,000
independence tax raising powers

573
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,039
corporation tax and so on so you could

574
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,880
end up with a situation where the

575
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:59,120
centrifugal forces pushing pulling

576
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,799
against westminster would be such that

577
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:03,919
you're talking about the breakup of the

578
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:05,600
united kingdom by default so i do think

579
00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:07,600
this will all dissipate though i think

580
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,840
that we'll go back to politics as normal

581
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,000
hopefully sooner or later but i do think

582
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,440
in scotland the issue will consume

583
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,440
politics in scotland and the body

584
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,320
politic in scotland from here on in what

585
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:22,080
about the english nationalism that

586
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:25,159
risks being sparked by what is seen by

587
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:27,360
right-wing nationalists in england as an

588
00:21:25,159 --> 00:21:30,480
over-compensation to the scots in order

589
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:32,640
to keep them in the union

590
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,440
devolution for england an english

591
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,600
parliament english votes

592
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,480
for english measures no mps from

593
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,640
anywhere else being allowed to vote on

594
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,679
tuesdays and wednesdays in parliament

595
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:48,320
and so on does that have legs or is that

596
00:21:45,679 --> 00:21:49,840
just a kind of ukip right-wing

597
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,840
nationalist pipe dream well i think it

598
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,320
has legs because ukip has such traction

599
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,480
now in parts of england so it kind of

600
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,799
plays into their narrative but i think

601
00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,400
the danger with this is that

602
00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:02,159
james conley once said that partition

603
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,000
talking about ireland would lead to a

604
00:22:02,159 --> 00:22:05,520
carnival of reaction on both sides of

605
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,280
the border and i think we've seen an

606
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,799
element of that now

607
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,960
on the back of this referendum campaign

608
00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:12,640
in scotland we saw the ugly scenes in

609
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,480
george square and glasgow were loyalists

610
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,080
taken to the streets because because

611
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,240
nationalism begets nationalism

612
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:21,039
nationalism is not so much a political

613
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,720
doctrine is as a symptom of political

614
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:24,480
and social underdevelopment in one

615
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,480
instance or political and social

616
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,840
retardation in the other

617
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,120
scottish nationalism and english

618
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,960
nationalism belong in the second

619
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:32,320
category so in under the weight of

620
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,480
austerity we're seeing a rise of

621
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,679
nationalism of different gradations

622
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:40,720
different uh levels of of force

623
00:22:37,679 --> 00:22:43,440
all over europe and scottish national

624
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,919
national fits into that narrative so i

625
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,320
think we've we've just succeeded in

626
00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:50,960
erupting all these schism these fissures

627
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:53,039
national identity identity politics

628
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,400
we've even seen the recruited sense of

629
00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:58,480
regional identity cornwall yorkshire

630
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,919
you know it's shetland was talking about

631
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,000
having its own referendum if scotland

632
00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:03,760
had voted yes so i think you should be

633
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,600
careful what you wish for when you start

634
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,559
talking about constitutional politics

635
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:11,360
this anti-politics finally uh

636
00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:14,159
i'm absolutely with you on that

637
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:14,960
much of the feeling was not so much

638
00:23:14,159 --> 00:23:16,720
for

639
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,520
scottish nationalism or the creation of

640
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,360
a scottish state but a rejection

641
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,360
of what i call the three cheeks of the

642
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:27,440
same backside the political

643
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:29,760
establishment uh what kind of uh

644
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,520
likelihood is that that the mainstream

645
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,080
political parties can recover any of

646
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,520
that ground well looking at the labour

647
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,360
party conference in manchester there's

648
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:40,000
very little prospect i mean one of the

649
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:41,200
the key things that i saw took place two

650
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,440
or three days after the scottish

651
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,679
referendum when the dignitaries in the

652
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,880
scottish labor hierarchy arrive outside

653
00:23:45,679 --> 00:23:49,200
the labour party conference in

654
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,760
manchester to a rapturous welcome and

655
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,039
applause from the labour bigwigs

656
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,440
you'd think they just won the european

657
00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:57,679
cup this was a disaster for labour

658
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,360
glasgow north lanarkshire western

659
00:23:57,679 --> 00:24:01,039
barcelona these were labour strongholds

660
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,799
they used to weigh the labour vote in

661
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:04,159
absolutely absolutely they've gone and

662
00:24:02,799 --> 00:24:06,320
in parts of scotland especially

663
00:24:04,159 --> 00:24:09,039
low-income communities labor is almost

664
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,679
as reviled as the tories so you think

665
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:11,039
that

666
00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:12,480
this would spur a period of

667
00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:14,080
introspection about where they've gone

668
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,480
wrong no no they're not clearly it

669
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,159
hasn't they don't get it and i think the

670
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,559
danger is that we're going to go along

671
00:24:18,159 --> 00:24:22,320
and we will have separation if there's

672
00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:24,000
nothing to fill that vacuum people need

673
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,360
change but not just in scotland all

674
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,440
throughout this island but the

675
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,799
disconnect between the political class

676
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,919
and ordinary people on the street

677
00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:32,159
especially people who are suffering

678
00:24:29,919 --> 00:24:34,240
under austerity has never been wider and

679
00:24:32,159 --> 00:24:36,559
is very very dangerous john white thanks

680
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,559
for that

681
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,080
and now it's your turn to tell us what

682
00:24:39,919 --> 00:24:44,320
you think through the portals of social

683
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,440
media what's rattling gayatri well on

684
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:50,640
the question uh of britain's involvement

685
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:53,440
in the war on in syria and iraq uh

686
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,679
akhtar makes the point that britain has

687
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,840
got no money for its citizens but it can

688
00:24:55,679 --> 00:24:59,200
fund expensive wars what happened to

689
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,400
austerity

690
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:05,039
on the frisco's referendum

691
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,440
damon q makes the point that parliament

692
00:25:05,039 --> 00:25:09,279
frequently fails as people scots lost

693
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,840
their chance to have a government for

694
00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:14,400
their people not for business and neil

695
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,960
barrington says that people want real

696
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,799
change hopefully the indie ref has made

697
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,320
people ask serious questions about our

698
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:22,480
country and i think that's really the

699
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,480
point yeah yes it's the point we were

700
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,840
discussing with john brit there's

701
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,080
something rotten

702
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,080
in the state of britain and that's all

703
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,400
that we've got time for this week which

704
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,000
alas means that's the end of the show do

705
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,240
please keep in touch with us on twitter

706
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,919
at rt underscore sputnik and on facebook

707
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,000
you can like us on sputnik on russia

708
00:25:37,919 --> 00:25:42,000
today it's goodbye for me gayatri and

709
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,000
from me george galloway it's been

710
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,000
marvelous

711
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,520
you