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okay

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foreign

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welcome to sputnik orbiting the world

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with me george galloway and me kayatri

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the role of intelligence agencies is a

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vexed one in any democracy we do need

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secrets and spies the problem is when we

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get secret spies and lies

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just last week moazembeig a man who'd

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already been unjustly incarcerated in

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guantanamo bay walked from belmarsh

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prison yet again an innocent man though

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having been held for months on serious

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terrorist charges which the state then

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abandoned without explanation these

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things have been happening again and

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again

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politicians have to take the rep but

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they're usually acting on the advice of

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our spies so who are our spies are they

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james bonds or austin powers our first

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guest was one of our spies in mi5 she

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can't tell us everything she did or else

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she'd have to kill us but she still

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might be helpful and she comes in peace

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on board the sputnik she's annie mashon

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annie let me start if i may with the

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moazembeg

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story a man unjustly incarcerated in

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guantanamo bay and now in our own

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sort of mini guantanamo bay in belmarsh

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the state abandoning the case even

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though it would have been a case

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warranting 15 years of imprisonment if

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he'd been found guilty

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without a word of explanation can you

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shed any light i know you're not of

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course operational uh but you do know

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how these agencies work what might have

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happened

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i think to me it seems that it's

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probably some sort of let's try and

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avoid embarrassing court cases uh which

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would bring in the security angle and

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the political angle so we have a

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situation where he would have claimed

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quite rightly moral equivalence with

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what our spies and our armies get up to

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our military gets up to in

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illegal invasions illegal occupations

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and all that sort of thing

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the justification that if you are an

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oppressed people or an occupied people

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you have a right in fact even a social

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duty to push back against those

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occupiers is a very well recognized one

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very strong historic um trend and i

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think that's all he would be able to

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argue but that would have been effective

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yeah i don't agree with what he says he

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did do

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but he's right when he says what he did

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do was exactly what the british

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government was itself doing and

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encouraging namely uh strengthening the

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opposition including armed opposition uh

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fighting in syria yes and they have a

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long and ignoble history of doing this

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right across the middle east right

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across the world and every time they do

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it it seems to go wrong and every time

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they do it they create more blowback we

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have a long history now

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of

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huge errors and blunders they almost

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always fail

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almost

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always have the opposite effect

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as was claimed

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for them when they were embarked upon

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who should we blame for that is it the

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agencies is it their political masters

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who are setting them the wrong tasks

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uh or is it a systemic thing does it

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flow from secrecy too much secrecy it is

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systemic it does come from too much

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secrecy and the fact that they can get

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away with whatever they want to get away

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with so at the one

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there is a long list of scandals we know

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that but those are only the ones that

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have come out there are many many other

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mistakes and cock-ups and things like

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that that go on which they can then lie

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to to their political masters and they

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do it time and time again and in fact

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most of the former heads of the

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intelligence agencies and former top

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cops have said quite publicly they

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blench because they didn't tell the

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whole truth to the intelligence and

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security committee in parliament or they

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lied in fact they have been caught out

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lying mi5 when they said originally they

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were not involved in torture and then

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the last boss but one i think had to

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admit he had lied

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it you know had been involved in torture

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and that's why they've been having to

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pay out compensation to the torture

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victims of the british state but i do

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think it is systemic as well we have a

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situation a very sort of british model

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where our intelligence agencies have

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evolved over 100 years and they've never

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been properly controlled they've never

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been properly overseen in fact they

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didn't officially exist until 1989

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um so they have got very used to working

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with complete secrecy and anyone inside

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who rocks the boat and asks ethical

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questions or says should we really be

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doing this is told to just shut up and

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not follow orders so the ones who are

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the yes men tend to progress and get to

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the top positions and you get this sort

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of very um closed group thing um and i

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think this also contributes the moral

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slide the moral degeneracy that we see

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where mi5 for example can get

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re-involved in torture when it had

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avoided it during the 1990s

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just one other aspect around this i

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think mi5 is a bit of a historic

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throwback i'm not quite sure what its

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role is in a modern democracy because we

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have a situation we have the the

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listening post the government

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communications headquarters in

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cheltenham allied to the nsa um we have

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mi6 which is like the ciar for an

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intelligence gathering organization and

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what's our equivalent for the fbi for

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example it's the national crime agency

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with police powers to arrest and carry

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out executive action mi5 does not have

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that mi5 seems to be duplicating what

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the national crime agency does but with

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fewer powers and greater secrecy and

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more money very much so yes yeah

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so what is its role in modern democracy

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i mean to

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to spend so much time just hoovering up

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all our information and watching the

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population it's beginning to remind me

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much more of the stasi in east germany

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my active involvement in these matters

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goes back to the early 1980s i became

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friends with the late lord wilson as

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harold wilson four times the prime

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minister of britain i sat many times in

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his rather gloomy flat in victoria and

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he regaled me with the destabilization

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of him as a suspected communist

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by british

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intel nothing could be further from the

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truth of course uh by uh british

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intelligence then i was swiftly into the

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minor strike uh in which i was deeply

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involved virtually every single day of

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the whole year

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of strike and the

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penetration of that strike by british

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intelligence mi5

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and of course

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as a prominent opponent of the iraq war

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here we were back again with the

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intelligence services

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either at the behest of the political

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leadership or just to please them

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feeding false information fake

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information into the policy making

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process

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so i'm wondering if the time hasn't come

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and you alluded to it there in your

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previous answer to actually abolish mi5

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uh that will probably get me

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some difficulties later on when this is

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broadcast but really i'm wondering what

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is their role and an agency with so many

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mistakes uh to its discredit

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surely at one point or other four feet's

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the right to continue to receive vast

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sums of public money well not only

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receive vast sums of public money but

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also abuse our basic freedoms throughout

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this country um it's a very good

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question i can't see what they bring to

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the intelligence table which is unique

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in the old days of course they started

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out as a counter espionage agency

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particularly in the so against the

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soviet union the cold war and as a sort

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of uh knock-on effect of that they then

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really built up this vast

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counter-subversion section which

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investigated uk citizens purely for

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their political beliefs and this this

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covered hundreds of thousands up to a

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million uk citizens for their

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involvement mainly in left-wing politics

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and then the cold war ended what were

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they to do suddenly it looked like they

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lost a great

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chunk of their work yeah so this is when

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there was very clever maneuvering behind

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the scenes where the um head of the time

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dame stellar rimington seized control of

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the investigation of the provisional ira

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and other northern ireland terrorist

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groups in the uk mainland and they took

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it from the metropolitan police which

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caused huge eruptions behind the scenes

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by the way because all these different

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agencies are competing for the same

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powers and resources so we have a

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situation where um a counter espionage

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intelligence agency used to working

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against very slow moving targets you

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know going and bugging the soviet

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embassy or following a few political

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activities i know that sort of thing

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suddenly they were put in charge of

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these really fast-paced terrorist

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investigations which in those days you

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had to gather the information gather the

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intelligence and of course crucially

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gather the evidence so that if you could

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you could put a terrorist suspect on

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trial in front of a jury of their peers

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now we've lost that i mean if we have a

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terrorist suspect we just bang them out

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with that without two presidents like

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mozambique but in those days that was

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the key point now mi5 officers had no

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training in evidence gathering they had

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no training in that whole due process

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and i think that also led to a number of

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massive mistakes that i saw along with

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david shayla back in the 1990s of course

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the crucial difference between the

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police and the mi5

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is that

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obviously not perfectly but the police

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are accountable they can be held to

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account for mistakes that they make mi5

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cannot

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the money that's voted to them uh is not

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questionable in the house their mistakes

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are not

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questionable ministers say we never

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comment on on intelligence matters at

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least you can have the commissioner of

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the metropolitan police in front of a

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select committee you can grill him

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parliamentary questions can be asked of

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the home secretary about him

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uh or her as uh might uh soon be the the

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case that's a key point isn't it and

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you're a transparency

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campaigner

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that's one of the key reasons why we

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must raise this question absolutely our

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intelligence agencies are the least

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accountable and most legally protected

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of any western country although it looks

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like america is rapidly beginning to

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catch up on that front um they're hedged

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around by a whole series of laws to

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protect them against disclosure and to

281
00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:22,959
protect them from accountability so in

282
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,920
1994 we had the intelligence services

283
00:10:22,959 --> 00:10:27,440
act put in place to govern mi6 and gchq

284
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,360
which crucially put into parliament as

285
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,880
well the intelligence and security

286
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,040
committee in parliament which is

287
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,880
actually appointed by or for a long time

288
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,160
was only appointed by the prime minister

289
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,519
and its findings were vetted by the

290
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,360
prime minister and it was only there to

291
00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:40,959
look at policy finance and

292
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,880
administration it had no powers

293
00:10:40,959 --> 00:10:44,880
whatsoever to investigate

294
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,560
allegations of misconduct now this has

295
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,320
been beefed up in the last year yeah but

296
00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:50,000
it's still filled with trustees it's

297
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,880
filled with placement and it's chaired

298
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,880
by malcolm rifkind um who as soon as the

299
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,480
whole snowden um stuff started coming

300
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,800
out especially about gchq and how

301
00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:01,519
they're running rampant um against the

302
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,440
privacy of 500 million europeans then

303
00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:04,800
somali rivkin says oh i've asked them

304
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,399
and they say they're operating within

305
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,320
law it's all hunky-dory don't worry i

306
00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:09,680
know what's going on and yet i know from

307
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,200
the inside and it was part of the

308
00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:13,920
whistleblowing i did with david shayla

309
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,600
in the 1990s quite how easily they can

310
00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,440
lie to the intelligence and security

311
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,200
committee how they can lie to their

312
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,839
political master the foreign secretary

313
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:25,040
and they do repeatedly

314
00:11:21,839 --> 00:11:28,480
it is uh an extraordinary situation uh

315
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:31,519
and it's not that we're without perils

316
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:34,160
there are terrorists there are plots

317
00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:36,959
uh there are dangerous people uh

318
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,320
operating in our country so it's not

319
00:11:36,959 --> 00:11:39,600
just that

320
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,760
because we're

321
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,120
liberals as a matter of fact i'm not a

322
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,360
liberal

323
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:48,640
that we are making this critique it's

324
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:51,680
not just about the ethics it's about the

325
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,040
efficiency and the competence of these

326
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:53,920
agencies

327
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,000
yes

328
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,600
and because they are so secret they can

329
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,360
get away with being incompetent and by

330
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,120
making mistakes because they can lie

331
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,959
about those mistakes so they don't learn

332
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,640
the lessons so they continue to make

333
00:12:02,959 --> 00:12:06,959
those mistakes and they continue to put

334
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,959
our safety at risk now all this war on

335
00:12:06,959 --> 00:12:10,320
terror stuff of course started with 9 11

336
00:12:08,959 --> 00:12:12,399
and it started with the american

337
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,639
hysterical over response globally and

338
00:12:12,399 --> 00:12:15,839
brutally to this terrorist threat this

339
00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:17,360
evil tude

340
00:12:15,839 --> 00:12:20,320
and yet of course in the uk we have far

341
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:22,800
more experience of a realistic threat on

342
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,480
a daily basis from irish terrorism for

343
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,240
example and i remember all the same

344
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,800
debates about civil liberties and things

345
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,240
going on in the 1980s and at that point

346
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,160
we did not give away all our basic

347
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,839
freedoms we did not give all these new

348
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,920
powers and new resources to create this

349
00:12:33,839 --> 00:12:38,480
massive spy infrastructure what we did

350
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,639
was targeted often human-led proper

351
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,160
intelligence investigations to gather

352
00:12:40,639 --> 00:12:44,079
evidence and then put these people on

353
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,000
trial if necessary you don't just have

354
00:12:44,079 --> 00:12:47,440
this dragnet surveillance of everybody

355
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,079
and kill all notions of privacy and

356
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,440
democracy by so doing

357
00:12:50,079 --> 00:12:53,680
so i think you need to to get that

358
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,760
balance we've sound so far out so far

359
00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:56,639
into the pocket of america and their

360
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,360
over

361
00:12:56,639 --> 00:13:00,880
indulgence and over reliance on tech as

362
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,399
well that suddenly we're living in this

363
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,920
sort of endemic surveillance state well

364
00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:05,920
almost police state if you want to

365
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,079
believe theresa

366
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:11,200
theresa may well have announced an

367
00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:12,320
impending police state in her speech in

368
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,560
birmingham

369
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:17,040
the tory party conference animation

370
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:18,959
thanks that's been fascinating we must

371
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,519
continue another time

372
00:13:18,959 --> 00:13:23,839
coming up after the break on the 47th

373
00:13:21,519 --> 00:13:26,959
anniversary of the murder of the man of

374
00:13:23,839 --> 00:13:30,760
the century rob miller on che guevara

375
00:13:26,959 --> 00:13:30,760
you don't want to miss it

376
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,519
welcome back to sputnik he was not cuban

377
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,279
but he risked his life many times in the

378
00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:47,440
cause of their liberation he was not

379
00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:49,680
african but he fought alongside the

380
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,399
greatest of all african leaders patrice

381
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:54,560
lumumba in the congo he was neither

382
00:13:52,399 --> 00:13:57,120
asian but he fought u.s imperialism in

383
00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:59,199
vietnam and he was not bolivian but he

384
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:02,000
gave the last of his lives blood making

385
00:13:59,199 --> 00:14:04,320
revolution against fascism there he was

386
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,959
the most inspiring man of the century

387
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,519
and in my view he still is joining us

388
00:14:06,959 --> 00:14:12,320
now to discuss commandante che guevara

389
00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:15,279
on the anniversary of his mother by u.s

390
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:18,880
imperialism is cuba solidarity campaign

391
00:14:15,279 --> 00:14:21,199
director rob miller but first gayatri

392
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,680
dressed for the part took the microphone

393
00:14:21,199 --> 00:14:24,880
to central london to hear the voice of

394
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,399
the people

395
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,399
i'm sorry i don't know who he is

396
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,839
i don't know thank you fun i can't say i

397
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,040
know much about him unfortunately che

398
00:14:33,839 --> 00:14:38,079
guevara

399
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:40,320
no i know nothing about him oh no of him

400
00:14:38,079 --> 00:14:41,360
i know nothing about him yeah i just

401
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,079
know he's

402
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,839
somehow iconic and that everybody tags

403
00:14:44,079 --> 00:14:47,519
buying you know he stands for so many

404
00:14:45,839 --> 00:14:49,519
good things although he's a romantic

405
00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:52,079
figure i suppose obviously he was

406
00:14:49,519 --> 00:14:53,040
against capitalism so if i'm completely

407
00:14:52,079 --> 00:14:54,720
honest

408
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,959
i'm not especially impressed by people

409
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,920
who wear shay guevara t-shirts because i

410
00:14:56,959 --> 00:15:00,240
think they're just buying into

411
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:03,040
capitalism which is exactly what he's

412
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:05,440
against a friend of mine went to cuba

413
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,639
two years ago and she brought me a cigar

414
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,839
with his face

415
00:15:06,639 --> 00:15:11,440
on on on the case of of the cigar but i

416
00:15:09,839 --> 00:15:12,480
don't smoke so i keep it as a you know

417
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,959
as a souvenir

418
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:17,199
i think he was really uh

419
00:15:14,959 --> 00:15:19,600
an hero for a lot of people and an

420
00:15:17,199 --> 00:15:21,440
example for other people unlike many

421
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,440
revolutionaries who pursued power and

422
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,680
nothing else i think che guevara was

423
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,680
very genuine

424
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,279
rob miller mixed uh

425
00:15:30,959 --> 00:15:35,199
vox pops there a surprising number of

426
00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:36,880
people didn't know anything about him

427
00:15:35,199 --> 00:15:38,839
but those who did

428
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:42,399
kind of got it right

429
00:15:38,839 --> 00:15:44,639
uh how do you account for

430
00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:47,519
this global phenomenon

431
00:15:44,639 --> 00:15:50,800
this picture the famous picture which

432
00:15:47,519 --> 00:15:53,600
you were i know deeply involved in

433
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,360
getting justice for the photographer on

434
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,480
this picture must have been reproduced

435
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,360
more than

436
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,040
any picture of any person in history how

437
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,160
do you account for it all but i think

438
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,240
che

439
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,160
was a beautiful man he was incredibly

440
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,880
handsome that image

441
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,120
really sells him as that man a man deep

442
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,800
in thought but with a purpose and i

443
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,040
personally think it's more than the

444
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,600
image it's about his beliefs and it's

445
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,519
about what he achieved as a person and i

446
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,199
think people around the world

447
00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:22,880
know about che through his image but

448
00:16:21,199 --> 00:16:24,480
then when they find out about him he

449
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,120
actually signifies something about

450
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,199
change and about possibilities for the

451
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,800
future che believes in a better world as

452
00:16:29,199 --> 00:16:33,360
we know a better world is possible and

453
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,519
che believed in it wrote about it and

454
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,600
fought for it and ultimately died for it

455
00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:39,519
he has become a symbol of change a

456
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,680
symbol of revolution an anti-imperialist

457
00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:44,160
symbol and that's where you see chase

458
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,560
figure most in the anti-vietnam wars in

459
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:49,199
chile across latin america in the middle

460
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,399
east where people are actually trying to

461
00:16:49,199 --> 00:16:52,000
persevere and work for their own

462
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:53,759
national identities for their own

463
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,000
progress for their peoples normally

464
00:16:53,759 --> 00:16:58,720
against an imperialist aggression that's

465
00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,639
where you see che's uh figure chase

466
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,320
image coming out he stands there in

467
00:17:00,639 --> 00:17:04,079
front of everybody as a symbol of an

468
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,039
anti-imperial struggle and one that can

469
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,520
be won

470
00:17:05,039 --> 00:17:09,760
the famous picture uh has a big story

471
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:13,039
attached to it tell us it absolutely i

472
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:15,120
mean we we in uh after in 1997 after on

473
00:17:13,039 --> 00:17:16,559
the 30th anniversary of the death of che

474
00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:18,720
guevara

475
00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:20,240
we organized a very big exhibition about

476
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,959
jay and we we contacted all the

477
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:25,760
photographers salas perfecto romero

478
00:17:22,959 --> 00:17:26,959
alberto corder to get images of jay and

479
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,039
uh

480
00:17:26,959 --> 00:17:30,400
alberto corda gave some wonderful images

481
00:17:29,039 --> 00:17:32,080
some of the first images that were seen

482
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,000
over here of chae with his daughter a

483
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,880
lady as a baby

484
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,080
playing golf with fidel uh in in havana

485
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,000
some of those images which are now

486
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,559
iconic were shown at this exhibition for

487
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,960
the first time a couple of years later

488
00:17:42,559 --> 00:17:47,360
smirnoff the vodka company decided to

489
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,360
use the image to advertise vodka and

490
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,760
billboards went up across britain

491
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:53,840
railway the image of che was there

492
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,799
revolutions revolutionary spirit

493
00:17:53,840 --> 00:18:00,880
advertising vodka now

494
00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:02,320
che was was t-total he was asthmatic

495
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,600
and we were in touch with cord and we

496
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:07,919
said how come you're allowing your image

497
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,840
to be used for this smyrnal fever he was

498
00:18:07,919 --> 00:18:11,520
outraged but of course his image had

499
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,960
been used across the world for a

500
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,960
multivarious

501
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,640
number of advertising opportunities so

502
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,000
we said would you like us to explore the

503
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,200
possibilities

504
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,360
and we did and the case went to all the

505
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,120
way up through the high court in fact we

506
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:27,679
didn't through smirnoff but we

507
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:29,679
we sued lolintas the advertising agency

508
00:18:27,679 --> 00:18:31,919
we sued rex features the photographic

509
00:18:29,679 --> 00:18:33,280
agency that had provided the the case

510
00:18:31,919 --> 00:18:34,320
and we went all the way to high court

511
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,880
and won

512
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,720
a huge settlement

513
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,559
and the the the proceeds from the

514
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,679
settlement were actually donated to a

515
00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:45,679
children's hospital in havana for asthma

516
00:18:43,679 --> 00:18:47,440
patients for children with asthma but

517
00:18:45,679 --> 00:18:49,919
the case revolved around whether corder

518
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,679
had been an employee of the newspaper

519
00:18:49,919 --> 00:18:54,400
revolution when he took the original

520
00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:56,160
photo or whether he owned the actual

521
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,840
copyright because he took the photo with

522
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,360
his negative revolution didn't exist

523
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,480
anymore and we

524
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:03,200
clarified the situation that the

525
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,559
photograph was owned by him and could

526
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,640
not be abused

527
00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:08,880
by anybody across the globe sadly it

528
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,720
still is in many places and to police

529
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,559
these images is very difficult but it

530
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,960
was the first time that he received

531
00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:18,320
anything for that photograph and in a

532
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:20,080
way it's kind of donated

533
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,520
particularly no he didn't take it for

534
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,160
personal benefit the money was donated

535
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:26,000
to a children's hospital in havana since

536
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,840
then the family and the estate try and

537
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,720
police the use of the image and

538
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,919
particularly the abuse of the image how

539
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,760
important

540
00:19:31,919 --> 00:19:36,559
in cuba

541
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,600
is the legacy of che guevara he wasn't

542
00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:39,120
cuban

543
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,919
he left the

544
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,280
uh

545
00:19:39,919 --> 00:19:43,880
cubans

546
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,440
uh long time ago in the

547
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,440
mid-1960s

548
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,760
uh is he still remembered there still

549
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,480
revered there chai crops up at every

550
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,400
point in in the cuban psyche in the

551
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,039
cuban history you don't see che

552
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,960
everywhere it's not uh you know he's not

553
00:19:57,039 --> 00:20:01,280
uh there in front of you all the time

554
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:04,799
but he crops up you know his body was

555
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:06,799
returned to cuba in in 97 where it's now

556
00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:09,120
in the museum in santa clara where he

557
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:10,400
won his most famous battle against the

558
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,520
troops of batista at the time of the

559
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,400
revolution

560
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:17,600
and he's referred to by children uh in

561
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,679
the streets by uh people working as a

562
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,240
model of how we should strive as a

563
00:20:19,679 --> 00:20:23,919
nation to be we should be like che and

564
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,640
that's something that i think is

565
00:20:23,919 --> 00:20:29,200
terribly important for the cuban people

566
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,200
to know that che is this symbol and they

567
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,039
can be like jay in terms of their

568
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,760
internationalism and their love for

569
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:37,679
humanity which for us we believe very

570
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,000
much the cuban revolution is all about

571
00:20:37,679 --> 00:20:42,799
he's a good example of how you can win

572
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,159
even whilst losing uh he lost his life

573
00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:44,880
in bolivia

574
00:20:44,159 --> 00:20:47,120
the

575
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:50,240
putative revolution that he was trying

576
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:52,000
to spark in bolivia failed

577
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,840
but now we have

578
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,159
one of the best and most progressive

579
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,240
governments in the world in power

580
00:20:56,159 --> 00:20:59,600
in bolivia

581
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,720
and

582
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:05,440
the united states by murdering him

583
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:08,640
actually made a very grave mistake they

584
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,640
even took pictures of the dead chai but

585
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,919
quickly realized they must suppress them

586
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,600
because the christ-like figure of jay

587
00:21:13,919 --> 00:21:18,480
lying there dead would have been even

588
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,520
more potent actually than corda's

589
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,400
pictures

590
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,159
um

591
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,600
what happened to

592
00:21:22,159 --> 00:21:25,360
if you know

593
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,960
the people who took the decisions and

594
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:29,600
who fired the

595
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,440
bullets into che guevara so is very

596
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,039
interesting story the specific story i

597
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,000
mean che was murdered and he was

598
00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:38,159
murdered by the cia what is fascinating

599
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,799
and it came out a few years ago

600
00:21:38,159 --> 00:21:43,600
the guy who shot che guevara was a

601
00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:45,600
bolivian sergeant called mario taran

602
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,880
and he was the one who was ordered by by

603
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,600
the bolivians

604
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:51,280
by the cia to kill jay

605
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,720
and uh

606
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,679
in 2000

607
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,880
he

608
00:21:53,679 --> 00:21:56,320
cropped up

609
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,440
i think it was two thousand possible

610
00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:01,280
2007 i think he cropped up because the

611
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,640
cubans were running their international

612
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,280
missions and one of their international

613
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,200
missions was operacion milagro which is

614
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,520
the restoration of site for people with

615
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,840
cataracts and had cuban doctors right up

616
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,720
in the hills of bolivia a little old guy

617
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,240
comes in virtually blind

618
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,840
from his cataracts

619
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,360
and he's treated

620
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,440
by the cubans as they treat everyone

621
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:23,120
free of charge in the operation milagro

622
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,679
which is a joint enterprise with with

623
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:27,520
the venezuelans and the ecuadorians and

624
00:22:25,679 --> 00:22:30,559
the oblivions

625
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,720
a few months later mario the son of the

626
00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:33,760
guy writes a letter thanking these

627
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,400
doctors

628
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,240
it turns out he's the son of mario taran

629
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,960
the guy that killed che guevara and the

630
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:43,440
guy who had the treatment was mario

631
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,960
taran and you talk about turning chai

632
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,039
into victory because of course the cuban

633
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,919
newspapers published the fact that there

634
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:49,440
you are

635
00:22:47,919 --> 00:22:51,520
cuban doctors free of charge no

636
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,640
bitterness whatsoever actually restored

637
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,960
the sight

638
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,240
of the very man who had been the person

639
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,480
who'd shot the bullets that killed che

640
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,840
guevara so you have venezuela you have

641
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,360
bolivia you have cuba you have the

642
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,039
united states it also shows the sort of

643
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,960
integration of the of the whole

644
00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:07,280
bolivarian dream the dream that che

645
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,600
guevara followed for a personified

646
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,360
personified it for latin america united

647
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,640
and there it was in the hills and that

648
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:14,320
they gave generously it was no

649
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,640
bitterness about this fact

650
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,000
and the cuban government saw that as

651
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,679
another example

652
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,120
of what we as a nation can do for people

653
00:23:19,679 --> 00:23:23,760
around the world no matter who they are

654
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:25,120
we're about people not about old battles

655
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,840
or anything like that

656
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:30,960
cuba solidarity campaign by far and away

657
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,799
the best solidarity campaign in britain

658
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,640
that i've ever worked with

659
00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:36,240
how do people help you how can they get

660
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,480
involved well specifically on this

661
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,600
question uh 29th of november i know

662
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,960
you're coming along we've got a big

663
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,520
conference in london the latin america

664
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,919
conference and the daughter

665
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,240
of che guevara alaida his oldest

666
00:23:45,919 --> 00:23:50,159
daughter elena guevara will be in london

667
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,919
at that conference talking about the

668
00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:54,000
legacy of che but also about the

669
00:23:51,919 --> 00:23:56,480
blockade against cuba about the struggle

670
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,120
for freedom for the cuban five the miami

671
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,320
five who are locked up in u.s jails so

672
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:01,280
that would be a wonderful opportunity

673
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,440
for people who are particularly

674
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,360
interested in che but obviously contact

675
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,280
us at any time with the cuba solidarity

676
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,799
campaign on the web you can get us by

677
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,480
looking online and getting in touch with

678
00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:12,799
a membership organization and we

679
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,640
campaign primarily against the blockade

680
00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:17,039
for better relations between britain

681
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,360
europe and cuba and obviously for the

682
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:21,440
question of sovereignty for cuba free

683
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:24,400
from outside aggression and particularly

684
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,400
from the united states

685
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,080
and now it's your turn to tell us what

686
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,080
you think through the portals of social

687
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:39,919
media what's rattling gayatri on the

688
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:42,880
subject of spies joker warns us that

689
00:24:39,919 --> 00:24:44,320
taxi drivers are all spies so never ever

690
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,279
actually tell them where you really want

691
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,600
to go they'll screw them up for sure

692
00:24:47,279 --> 00:24:51,440
and alpha renegade tells us that

693
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,320
actually britain's spy agencies are

694
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,480
neither james bond nor austin power it's

695
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,799
more journey english on che guevara

696
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,520
commandant

697
00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:03,520
amin says that i had it on my wall in

698
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,840
paris when i was a student there the

699
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,360
poster boy for a less materialistic

700
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,159
generation

701
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:12,400
and hamid sharokni says it's an image of

702
00:25:10,159 --> 00:25:15,760
a courageous visionary who indeed was

703
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:18,000
the most complete human being of our age

704
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,840
i think there's no uh doubt about that

705
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,559
and i think neither is there a doubt

706
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,279
that 100 years from now 200 years from

707
00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:25,360
now

708
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:27,679
this image will still be

709
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:30,480
rallying and inspiring people he really

710
00:25:27,679 --> 00:25:31,840
was the man of the 20th century for me

711
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,240
so well that's all that we have for this

712
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,159
week which alas means that's the end of

713
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,240
the show you can keep in touch with us

714
00:25:36,159 --> 00:25:40,000
on twitter at rt underscore sputnik and

715
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,760
on facebook you can like us on sputnik

716
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,159
on russia today it's goodbye from me

717
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:47,400
kayatri and from me george galloway it's

718
00:25:44,159 --> 00:25:47,400
been marvelous

719
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,840
foreign