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[Music]

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I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me Joseph

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Hyatt standing in for gadri 30 years ago

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Patrick McGee of the IRA came within an

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inch of assassinating the then British

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prime minister Margaret Thatcher in the

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Grand Hotel in Brighton many others were

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killed and named many for Life Irish

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Republican groups had already

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assassinated members of the Royal Family

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and Mrs fer Circle and would go on to

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kill more her successor John Major and

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his cabinet would later have to hide

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under their own cabinet table in 10

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Downing Street as Ira Rockets came

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through the window it was the height of

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the Ira's military threat to British

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rule in the north of Ireland having more

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effect than any number of killings there

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it may have been the moment behind all

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the necessary Bluster when the British

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decided there was no military solution

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to their long war with Ireland our first

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guest Joshua LaVine is a man who knows a

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lot about war and how the British have

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lived through so many of them he's the

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author of more books on Britain and

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conflict than I have time to tell you

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about he has also interviewed the

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aforementioned Patrick McGee and I'm

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glad to say he joins us now on board the

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Sputnik Joshua first of all tell us what

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Patrick McGee is like murderous criminal

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bloodthirsty not at all it was it was

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very very polite very thoughtful quite

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inscrutable didn't give much away and

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probably was quite nervous of me because

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a stranger coming along and asking him

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some very personal questions is is is is

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going to unsettle someone but I found

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him very thoughtful and obviously racked

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with a with a with a kind of um guilt

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he's on the horns of this moral dilemma

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he he talks about the fact that he uh

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did the right thing he think he was

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engaged in a war and he believed he did

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the right thing in planting that bomb

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but on at the same time he's got very

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friendly with the daughter anony Barry

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who was one of the victims MP who was

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killed in the killed and and he regrets

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hugely the fact that he killed this

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woman who's become a close friend her

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father and I think a lot of his life is

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an attempt to square that Circle try to

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make sense how can you you know think

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you did the right thing but at the same

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time regret that you killed certainly

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one person and probably more it's very

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difficult and I think with his um like

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so many of the Republicans with his with

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his Catholic background there is is even

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though he's hasn't been a Catholic for

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many years there is still this sense

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that a reckoning is coming uh and I

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think a lot of his life is involved with

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trying to make sense of what he did and

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trying to to to justify it to himself

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and and and and and make give his life

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meaning and many think he he was some

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kind of electronics wizard a mastermind

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but in fact he just happened to be the

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Ira's main man uh on the mainland

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Mainland at the time as it's described

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at the time he he was brought up

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actually most of his young life was

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spent in England in East Anglia so he

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had a a good English accent so he was

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used as as as their man on the on the

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mainland and he had a basic knowledge of

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circuitry so that that's what qualified

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him to to to to plant this extraordinary

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um bomb and he planted it under the bath

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uh in the Very Room that he knew that

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one month later exactly the Prime

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Minister would be sleeping in if the

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Prime Minister had been brushing her

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teeth when the bomb went off uh as she

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could well have been what would have

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been the main results in your view well

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it's interesting I mean it's certainly

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arguable that that we wouldn't have had

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a peace process at the time we did

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because if the Prime Minister had been

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killed it would have been very very

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difficult for the Britain to to start

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negotiating with Shin Fain at any time

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in the in the in in in in the near

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future I mean really very difficult as

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it was if you if you're thinking in

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terms of Peace it probably I mean it's

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you know a strange thing to say but the

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result was was in in terms of damage

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done it did accelerate the peace process

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because what it did if you if you read

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lost lives which is the almost the Bible

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of the the troubles it goes through all

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the deaths of the troubles one by one

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and you start to see there's almost a

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pattern it become it's very tip fortat a

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Catholic killed a Protestant killed a

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policeman killed and and and and you

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know it's why the the British army have

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admitted it was it it became a good

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training ground for soldiers because it

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was a sort of predictable uh uh conflict

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and what this did was to take it

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completely out of that predictability

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completely out of the game as some

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people were calling it as it stood and

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Alan Clark is very interesting in his

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Diaries Alan Clark says that this act

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has a smell of the Tet Offensive about

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it now he clearly doesn't mean in terms

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of of of skill no but T was a military

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failure but a political success

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precisely it it was the the effect that

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it had on the American public it made

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them realize that the war you know

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couldn't be won it had that same s of

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effect of the T offensive in that the

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public and and and people realized they

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weren't going away they were going to be

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a very difficult unit to break down and

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so in a way I mean it's absolutely

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terrible that people had to die for this

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to happen but it was one of those events

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that probably in retrospect did bring

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the peace process a little bit closer I

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mean journalist David Hughes described

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this as the most audacious attack on a

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British government since the Gunpowder

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Plot I mean is that correct I think it

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is I mean it's extraordinary AUD ious

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and and you know as you were saying I

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mean it was it was it was brilliantly

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carried out I mean it

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was it was effective and and and and it

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had such a strong effect on on on

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attitudes in in in Britain and on

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attitudes in in the government and and

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you see I mean Alan Clark was was

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impressed by it I mean to him it was a

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um it was a master stroke and uh it it

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it certainly jerked the troubles out of

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the sort of predictability that that

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they become on the other hand you know

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one has to look at what it was it was

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also the coldblooded killing of of

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people and these were not you know it

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wasn't thata who was killed it wasn't

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Mrs Thatcher it wasn't it it was these

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were actually were people much lower

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down the ranks and members of of the

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families of of Tes people who had no

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actual input in government policy

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whatsoever and that's a question I asked

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Patrick mcke I said you know did does it

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bother you that the people you killed

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weren't the people you were really going

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for and he said well that's that's how

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War Works he said our real worry was

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that we might kill a chambermaid or so

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so I timed it so that you know it was

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unlikely that you know I effectively the

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collateral damage would be would be less

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but it's it's on the one hand it was

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this master stroke on the one hand it it

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did bring we can say in Retros it

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probably brought peace closer on the

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other hand it was a cold blooded murder

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indeed and uh and Norman tbot Lord tet's

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wife is uh disabled to this day push

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around in a in a wheelchair and he's

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very bitter doesn't

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accept uh any kind of he can't forgive

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he said Patrick McGee because Patrick

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McGee has never

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repented now talking of audacity we know

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that Patrick m McGee planted that bomb

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we don't know who fired the Rockets

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through the cabinet window uh arguably

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that was even more audacious it was real

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life wasn't done a month before M and

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the British cabinet I remember it very

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well I was a member of parliament at the

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time the British cabinet were cowering

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under the cabinet table terms of uh an

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audacious military strike by a

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paramilitary outfit that's a pretty high

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threshold too isn't it absolutely no I

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mean so audacious to you know to park

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this van outside park the van at the

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back entrance to Downing Street and

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fired at least two rockets through the

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exact window where the cabinet was

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meeting I mean I think think the same

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applies I mean in a way had they killed

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the entire cabinet peace would have been

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much further off I mean you that's the

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thing about terrorism isn't it that it

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actually certainly in the short term

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maybe even the medium term achieves the

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opposite of its intention uh you you

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could not conceive of a British cabinet

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being wiped out and its successor

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cabinet treating with the people who had

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just killed the previous cabinet and

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therefore the war intensifies and it's

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one of the many contradictions of of

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Northern Ireland you know the the fact

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was this it has brought piece closer and

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it could so easily have pushed it

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further away and and there's so many

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contradictions when you know when you

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start to to to to to look closely at at

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uh for example the the strategy that

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that that Shin feain the political the

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armorite in one hand and the The Ballot

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Box in the other which this was Danny

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Morrison 19 1981 I think it was and you

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on the one hand you know you had the IRA

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very much going along with this but but

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the more successful The Ballot Box was

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the more it actually stifled the

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military uh campaign because if if they

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were successful uh in with The Ballot

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Box they didn't want to jeopardize that

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but by by killing too many people or by

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causing outrages and on the other hand

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if they lost popularity at The Ballot

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Box

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ascribed that to the fact that they were

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being too outrageous with the armal lies

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the political leadership of shen feain

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is riding very high indeed they are the

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biggest party in Ireland as a uh Martin

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mcginness who some say he denies uh was

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the uh Chief of Staff of the IRA as the

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Deputy Prime Minister famously chuckled

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with Reverend Dean Paisley and now sits

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in a in a in a a duo with with Peter

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Robinson a most unlikely uh outcome um

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the doyle is uh facing its only real

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opposition uh the government in the

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Republic is facing its only real

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opposition in Shin Fain it's perfectly

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possible that uh Shen feain will be the

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next government in the Republic and the

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demography in the north is changing fast

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it's now

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[Music]

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5248 the Str has worked hasn't it it's

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very interesting you say that the

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demographics are changing very much and

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but there's always been an assumption

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that when there's a majority of

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Catholics in the north they will vote to

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unite and it doesn't necessarily follow

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00:11:16,079 --> 00:11:21,639
because as I mean the problem really you

273
00:11:19,839 --> 00:11:23,839
know if you go back 30 40 years there

274
00:11:21,639 --> 00:11:25,760
was real unfairness in north of Island I

275
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mean it was the Protestants had the

276
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,480
upper hand they didn't live well

277
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necessarily but you know they were

278
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,399
second class citizens compared to the

279
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the Catholics who are fourth class

280
00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:36,639
citizens but things are much fairer now

281
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,040
things are much more equal you know jobs

282
00:11:36,639 --> 00:11:40,480
are open to to they don't the Catholics

283
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,800
don't have the necessarily the

284
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,920
complaints that they once had and once

285
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,680
that's the case then it's not

286
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,600
necessarily the vote necessarily isn't

287
00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:51,240
going to run along ethnic lines the way

288
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,560
it once would I think you're going to

289
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,000
find that that that actually Catholics

290
00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:57,880
many many more Catholics are going to

291
00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:00,040
vote with the status quo because they're

292
00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,880
doing all right jack than necessarily

293
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voting to become part of the South the

294
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,519
vote will be much more an economic vote

295
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,600
on you know whether they want to be with

296
00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:09,240
the North or with the south on who's

297
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,800
doing better it's a very very

298
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:14,199
interesting subject Joshua LaVine author

299
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,680
of beauty and atrocity and many really

300
00:12:14,199 --> 00:12:18,880
great books and I realize I've read a

301
00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:21,760
lot of your books and so should everyone

302
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,880
else coming up after the break pullets

303
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,040
are Prize winner you and M CasCal of the

304
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:28,360
Guardian newspaper a man with an

305
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,360
important part in the hottest film

306
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:34,199
property of the year year released just

307
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:37,839
yesterday citizen 4 by Laura pus on

308
00:12:34,199 --> 00:12:37,839
Edward Snowden don't miss

309
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[Music]

310
00:12:46,079 --> 00:12:51,000
it welcome back to Sputnik my next guest

311
00:12:49,279 --> 00:12:53,320
has been a friend of mine for nearly 30

312
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,199
years neither of us knew back then that

313
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,160
he would find a central role in one of

314
00:12:55,199 --> 00:12:59,680
the most dramatic stories in world

315
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,600
journalistic history a story by the way

316
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:05,079
which would see him win the coveted

317
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,600
bullets are prize in May of 2013 y mcco

318
00:13:05,079 --> 00:13:08,440
was having a quiet day in the office in

319
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,360
New York when his editor told him to

320
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,519
collect his toothbrush and fly to Hong

321
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,360
Kong to debrief an alleged whistle broer

322
00:13:12,519 --> 00:13:16,920
from the United States Security Services

323
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,199
who might or probably might not have an

324
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,720
interesting tale to tell that man was

325
00:13:19,199 --> 00:13:24,279
Edward Snowden the rest as they say is

326
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:27,079
history a history now immortalized in

327
00:13:24,279 --> 00:13:29,320
film thanks to Laura pess whose movie

328
00:13:27,079 --> 00:13:31,440
Citizen 4 was released on the world

329
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,880
yesterday you and mascal joins us now

330
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,519
but first let's have a look at the

331
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,519
trailer for the

332
00:13:36,199 --> 00:13:40,360
film

333
00:13:37,959 --> 00:13:41,519
Laura at this stage I can offer nothing

334
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,240
more than my

335
00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:47,240
word I am a senior government employee

336
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,600
in the intelligence Community I hope you

337
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,199
understand that contacting you is

338
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,079
extremely high

339
00:13:50,199 --> 00:13:56,040
risk for now know that every border you

340
00:13:53,079 --> 00:13:58,680
cross every purchase you make every call

341
00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:01,639
you dial every cell phone tower you pass

342
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:03,720
friend you keep site you visit and

343
00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:06,040
subject line you type is in the hands of

344
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,360
a system whose reach is unlimited but

345
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,959
whose safeguards are

346
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,959
not in the end if you publish The Source

347
00:14:09,959 --> 00:14:15,360
material I will likely be immediately

348
00:14:12,959 --> 00:14:17,160
implicated I ask only that you ensure

349
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,720
this information makes it home to the

350
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,360
American public thank you and be careful

351
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,560
citizen

352
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:29,480
4 so I don't know when thing about you

353
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:32,759
okay um I work for uh so I don't your

354
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,759
name oh sorry I uh my name is Edward

355
00:14:32,759 --> 00:14:39,839
Snowden I go by

356
00:14:34,759 --> 00:14:39,839
Ed um Edward Joseph snowden's the full

357
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:51,390
[Music]

358
00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:58,320
name you and when we first met uh we

359
00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:01,519
were both uh Local Heroes you're now an

360
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:04,560
international figure featuring in three

361
00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:06,399
plays and soon to be three films but

362
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,000
let's start with the one that was

363
00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:11,680
released yesterday which has become the

364
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:15,000
hottest film property in the world tell

365
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:17,560
us about it and when we were in Hong

366
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,480
Kong uh interviewing Edward Snowden we

367
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:22,480
interviewed him over something like you

368
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:25,480
know six to eight days uh and Laura

369
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,920
filmed entire thing including the actual

370
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,240
uh meeting the first meeting the first

371
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,319
meeting as soon as I I wasn't there for

372
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,839
the initial meeting I was there the

373
00:15:30,319 --> 00:15:34,440
second day but I'm told that on the

374
00:15:32,839 --> 00:15:36,839
first day she just went into the room

375
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,199
with Snowden and straight away just set

376
00:15:36,839 --> 00:15:41,360
up her camera and when I went in the

377
00:15:39,199 --> 00:15:43,440
second day the camera was set up and it

378
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,440
was just rolling all the time I think

379
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,040
she's got about 20 hours worth of

380
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:51,360
footage and uh so the the very

381
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:54,279
similitude is is clearly there and

382
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:56,920
that's I think what makes the film so

383
00:15:54,279 --> 00:16:00,120
Sensational because it's like a flower

384
00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:02,279
uh opening up isn't it yeah I I read one

385
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,680
um critic saying some of the scenes must

386
00:16:02,279 --> 00:16:05,839
have been staged it was complete

387
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,399
nonsense none of her she was filming and

388
00:16:05,839 --> 00:16:10,000
we just forgot about her as you normally

389
00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:12,440
do in those situations and uh we were

390
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:15,480
engaged in questioning Snowden and the

391
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,920
camera cease to exist and how have the

392
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:20,519
authorities taken to the whole thing

393
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,600
being immortalized uh in what will

394
00:16:20,519 --> 00:16:24,319
undoubtedly be a multiple award-winning

395
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,880
movie yeah I'm pretty sure it's going to

396
00:16:24,319 --> 00:16:29,120
win an Oscar she always won an Oscar for

397
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,079
her Iraq documentary my country my

398
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,399
country and this is way better um so I

399
00:16:32,079 --> 00:16:34,560
think she's going to get an Oscar I

400
00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:37,560
haven't heard anything from the

401
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,720
authorities yet but this is going to do

402
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,720
all the articles that have been written

403
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,720
uh all those stories won't have the

404
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,279
impact that this documentary has because

405
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:49,480
people will see Snowden it humanizes

406
00:16:46,279 --> 00:16:52,079
them it shows them his geeky side it

407
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,920
shows them uh as very moral it shows

408
00:16:52,079 --> 00:16:57,399
them a sense of humor it shows he's

409
00:16:53,920 --> 00:17:00,440
paranoid it shows his nervousness and

410
00:16:57,399 --> 00:17:01,639
excitement as a moment close and that's

411
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,759
going to change the perception of

412
00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:06,760
Snowden I you have to change public

413
00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:08,319
opinion in America and I think that's uh

414
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,160
that this documentary will go a long way

415
00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:14,720
towards doing that the film doesn't show

416
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:17,839
the United Kingdom in a good light uh

417
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:20,520
the British response has been close to

418
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:23,520
zero partly because only the guardian

419
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:27,400
really took the story up it never became

420
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:29,520
part of the popular culture uh although

421
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:33,120
Snowden was elected as

422
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:35,720
disced as theor ofg University but

423
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:38,360
beyond if you like the politicized class

424
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,960
nobody really knows who Snowden is

425
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:42,240
probably think it's Lord Snowden when

426
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,240
you're uh when you're uh talking about

427
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:48,880
him why do you think that is that

428
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:51,799
Snowden revealed that Britain was spying

429
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:55,080
on an industrial scale in fact A J more

430
00:17:51,799 --> 00:17:57,679
than industrial uh was spying on us all

431
00:17:55,080 --> 00:18:00,440
spying on the world and without legal

432
00:17:57,679 --> 00:18:03,120
authority to do so and yet the political

433
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,679
class hasn't done that about it it's a

434
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:07,440
really good question and I'll say from

435
00:18:04,679 --> 00:18:11,200
the outset I don't know the answer but

436
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:15,080
in citizen 4 Snowden says repeatedly

437
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:19,320
that gchq is worse much more intrusive

438
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:21,120
than the NSA now why is it not uh been

439
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:24,039
an outcry in Britain why the political

440
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:25,799
classes not engaged it may be as you say

441
00:18:24,039 --> 00:18:28,520
the rest of the media don't like the

442
00:18:25,799 --> 00:18:30,919
guardian because of phone hacking or

443
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,480
things were arrogant and smug um it

444
00:18:30,919 --> 00:18:34,640
could be that you know for four

445
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,080
centuries been a little political

446
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,559
upheaval in Britain uh people are

447
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:43,520
comfortable with State security uh

448
00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:46,039
because of the IRA and intelligence role

449
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:49,400
in that now the role of the intelligence

450
00:18:46,039 --> 00:18:53,360
agencies in dealing with islamist

451
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:55,200
terrorism um it maybe the public think

452
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:58,440
uh they're quite happy with the idea of

453
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,799
uh security uh and prepared to sacrifice

454
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,280
privy

455
00:18:59,799 --> 00:19:03,840
um it's not it may be just a cultural

456
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,960
thing we've been brought up in James

457
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,360
Bond and we view the intelligent

458
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,520
services in a benign way well they're

459
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:16,400
more Austin Powers than uh James Bond in

460
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:20,039
my experience now Snowden uh is in

461
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:23,440
Moscow uh we learn he's now joined by

462
00:19:20,039 --> 00:19:26,679
his partner who many thought had fled

463
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:29,280
the coup uh how is he fairing uh how

464
00:19:26,679 --> 00:19:33,200
isolated do you think he feels what are

465
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:36,840
his plans I saw him in U Moscow um a

466
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:39,400
couple of months ago and um it's in six

467
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,280
and 4 reveals that his girlfriend uh

468
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,720
Lindsay has gone to join him I think she

469
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,799
went and joined him in July before I

470
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:50,120
went to see him in Moscow i' been told

471
00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:53,960
oh he's depressed he's you know fed up

472
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:56,400
uh and um I think former

473
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,919
NSA director claimed he would end up

474
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,720
like fil and all the others you know

475
00:19:57,919 --> 00:20:02,720
alcoholic depressed but he was none of

476
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,280
these things um in fact he doesn't drink

477
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,640
so he's not going to end up as an

478
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:11,039
alcohol um he lived a life

479
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,679
in uh America and Hawaii and Japan and

480
00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:15,799
other places who live different from you

481
00:20:12,679 --> 00:20:18,640
and me He Lives a he's part of that

482
00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:21,039
internet generation he lives online he

483
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,840
sits up from 10: at night till 3:00 4 in

484
00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:24,960
the morning communicating with other

485
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:27,080
people online that's what he's doing in

486
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:30,679
uh Moscow so his life isn't

487
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:34,320
fundamentally different from what it was

488
00:20:30,679 --> 00:20:36,919
uh in uh the US he'd rather be in

489
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,400
Western Europe he'd rather be back in

490
00:20:36,919 --> 00:20:40,640
America but he's not going back to face

491
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,440
charges he doesn't think he's done

492
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,640
anything wrong is there any possibility

493
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,080
of him coming in from the C to use the

494
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:51,679
spy uh jargon would the United States

495
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:54,280
ever agree I can't see it only if it was

496
00:20:51,679 --> 00:20:57,280
an embarrassment to America having uh

497
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,880
Snowden and Russia uh they think well

498
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:03,840
okay may be better to do a deal and let

499
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:06,360
them go to Switzerland or Norway um but

500
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,440
at present I don't sense any

501
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:10,159
embarrassment and they to some extent it

502
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,520
might be useful to them having him

503
00:21:10,159 --> 00:21:15,799
sitting in Russia and they can uh claim

504
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,440
that you know here he is he's a quote

505
00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:20,279
traitor look at him he's sitting in

506
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,320
Russia obviously it's is stunning that

507
00:21:20,279 --> 00:21:24,120
you did capture this and I mean hats off

508
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,080
to you but can I ask did you face any

509
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:28,760
backlash in your life consequently of

510
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,960
such a high-profile case it's surprising

511
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:34,039
and

512
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:36,840
before uh in the immediate aftermath of

513
00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:39,520
Hong Kong I went back to New York uh and

514
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,840
I was the expectation was I might end up

515
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,919
in front of a grand jury wow so Guardian

516
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,960
lawyers briefed me on how to respond uh

517
00:21:44,919 --> 00:21:49,120
but nothing happened for about 6 months

518
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,440
every time I back into the UK i' would

519
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:54,880
be stopped at passport control but

520
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:57,600
normally just for about s 20 minutes uh

521
00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:01,080
question well you say your passports

522
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,120
been uh reported uh lost or stolen well

523
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,159
the only person that would have done

524
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:07,240
that was me and I didn't so I must have

525
00:22:04,159 --> 00:22:08,799
been on somebody's list I put in a l

526
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,720
eventually get fed up with it because it

527
00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:12,240
was awkward I was going with family and

528
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,720
I'd be held back and they would had no

529
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,360
idea what was happening to me um So

530
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:20,120
eventually I lodged an official

531
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:23,279
Complaint and it stopped why has this uh

532
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:26,000
captured the imagination of filmmakers

533
00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:27,640
and playwrights I I'm forever meeting

534
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,679
people who say that they've been

535
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,679
watching someone playing you on a stage

536
00:22:30,679 --> 00:22:34,520
yeah uh why do you think it's captured

537
00:22:32,679 --> 00:22:37,799
the imagination of creative people in

538
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:40,840
this way this a lot of reasons maybe

539
00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:44,159
spies are is always a sexy subject it's

540
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:46,640
an exotic location Hong Kong it's this

541
00:22:44,159 --> 00:22:51,120
sort of sense of uh the moral man

542
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:54,279
standing up to the authoritarian State

543
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:57,520
um so I think it's a combin combination

544
00:22:54,279 --> 00:23:00,159
of these things now there uh thanks to

545
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:03,600
his revelation we we know as I said the

546
00:23:00,159 --> 00:23:06,640
central role that gchq is playing we

547
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,520
know that the Americans were uh

548
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,720
listening into to the telephone of the

549
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,320
chancellor of uh Germany one of their

550
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,120
closest allies the most important

551
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:18,039
country in Europe and so on is it all

552
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:21,120
still going on um yeah I don't think

553
00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:23,520
anything's fundamentally changed um if

554
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:25,760
anything uh I I would have thought

555
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,799
intelligent Services would think look

556
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,760
we've got a problem of public trust

557
00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:31,679
we're going to have to make Con some

558
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,520
concessions even if they're just minor

559
00:23:31,679 --> 00:23:37,559
to try and win back public confidence

560
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,640
but I mean there isn't pressure in the

561
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:42,400
UK there is pressure in America there is

562
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:45,679
pressure in Brazil there is pressure in

563
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:49,320
Germany and uh Indonesia and elsewhere

564
00:23:45,679 --> 00:23:51,039
around the world but not um so there's

565
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,480
the basically the intelligent services

566
00:23:51,039 --> 00:23:55,440
in Britain and in America rather than

567
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,159
giving concessions are actually taking

568
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,520
more Powers taking more Powers Yeah

569
00:23:57,159 --> 00:24:02,200
there's no real political over oversight

570
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,799
uh there's no real judicial oversight uh

571
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,679
one of the Committees the House of

572
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:10,240
Commons um home Affairs committee with

573
00:24:06,679 --> 00:24:13,120
Keith spaz there's an almost comical

574
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,520
exchange the were taking evidence from

575
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:16,480
the interceptions commissioner who's

576
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,360
supposed

577
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:22,440
to uh be the Ombudsman for the gchq and

578
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,960
they said to him um you've seen all

579
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,440
these stories in the guardian are you

580
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,520
concerned about what's happening at GC

581
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,919
gchq and it was like the old boys

582
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,440
Network the old boys club he goes down

583
00:24:30,919 --> 00:24:34,880
to gchq and says uh I've seen these

584
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,480
stories in the guardian is there

585
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,200
anything to be concerned about and they

586
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,559
say no and that's the extent move

587
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,520
nothing to see

588
00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:46,640
here this is parliamentary oversight

589
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:49,679
British style well um I'm going to make

590
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:52,039
sure I see every play and every movie in

591
00:24:49,679 --> 00:24:54,870
which you feature you and mcal thanks

592
00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:56,760
very much indeed for joining us on the

593
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:59,240
[Music]

594
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,039
Sputnik and now it's turn to tell us

595
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,080
what you think through the portals of

596
00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:04,840
social media what's rattling Joseph well

597
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,840
30 years on obviously from the Brighton

598
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,799
Hotel bombing we ask what is the turning

599
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,080
point of the troubles and has have

600
00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:13,000
lessons been learned um quite sensitive

601
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,799
and heated replies on that one but

602
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,840
Michael O says if they had got their

603
00:25:14,799 --> 00:25:19,159
target how different would Britton be

604
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:22,360
and of course on citizen 4 uh we asked

605
00:25:19,159 --> 00:25:25,000
is Edward Snowden a hero well T says

606
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:27,240
Snowden Manning Assange are ever truth

607
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,399
martys and beacons of hope that's all

608
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,120
we've got time for for today which alas

609
00:25:29,399 --> 00:25:33,520
means that's the end of the show tweet

610
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:35,799
us your views on Twitter it's rtor

611
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,880
Sputnik and on Facebook Sputnik on

612
00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:39,720
Russia today but from me Joseph height

613
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:44,240
it's goodbye once again and from me

614
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,240
George Gallow it's been marvelous