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[Music]

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I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gri

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former prime minister Harold Wilson

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opined in the days before social media

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that a week is a long time in politics I

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tell you it's been a long hard 52 weeks

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at the political callace joining us now

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is a proper gentleman a knight of the

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realm veteran chairman of a powerful

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select committee a man of independent

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mind

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everything in short a parliamentarian

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should be except for the fact that he's

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a conservative sir Edward Lee MP welcome

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to the Sputnik on that point you have

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sound views on the Iraq War which you

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opposed on the Middle East crisis on the

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plight of Christians in Syria and so on

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you share with me a Roman Catholic

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background opposition to Youth inasia

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and abortion and so on how can you still

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be a right-wing con conservative which

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part of the Holy father's message on

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capitalism over the last 12 months or so

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did you miss well I'm just beginning to

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wonder if I'm a right-wing conservative

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actually uh maybe I've got it wrong all

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my life I am a right-wing conservative

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in this you probably wouldn't approve

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this Georgia I am a fite in economics

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you know I believe in a flat tax system

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which the conservative party has never

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introduced or gone anywhere near I

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believe in education vouchers in schools

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uh so I buy that thatcherite agenda but

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you're right because I'm a Catholic I'm

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slightly idiosyncratic in terms of um

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social conscience and I Michael go said

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to me that I support the Pope in

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everything apart from European

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integration and one more other thing

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because um I believe you've been a

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minister for a short while in John

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Major's um government but other than

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that you've been a backbencher and all

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in your whole parliamentary career why

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are you not in the front bench well

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that's a very good question I sometimes

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ask that all the time why have I never

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been put on the front bench why was I

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sacked by John manger actually he he

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tapped me on the knee when he sacked me

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and he said you're you know there's

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nothing to do with your competence but

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he said you're just too independent

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minded really you'd be happy on that a

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badge of uh a badge of honor before we

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leave the church Francis is the best

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thing that ever happened to the Catholic

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church in my lifetime uh at least he is

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in his uh way of life and in the the

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courage with which he's confronting

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issues and the clarity with which he's

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speaking about exploitation and the poor

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and so on I I find it unprecedented and

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it is Reviving The Church in many places

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are you a fan I'm a great fan because he

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comes from a new world actually I didn't

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mind Benedict because probably unlike

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you I'm quite a traditional catholic for

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instance I love the Latin mass and

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Benedict Was a superb Theologian and I

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met him once he had a tremendous twinkle

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in his eye but undoubtedly he was a bit

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dry for many people although his speech

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which we heard together in West Hall was

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a brilliant Exposition on the state of

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British politics but Francis is a man of

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the people comes from the new world

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articulates a sort of New Faith which I

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think people find very appealing it is

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much more open than perhaps Benedict was

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one of the uh stories of the year has

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been the horrific fate of Christians in

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Iraq most of them Catholics calans uh

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after the of the uh us UK Invasion and

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occupation began to shatter effectively

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shatter Iraq into a, uh pieces and then

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a Repeat Performance in Syria where

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Western backed Rebels are murdering

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priests even Bishops destroying churches

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this is a matter I know that you pay a

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lot of attention to would you summarize

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it well yes because I I went actually to

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Iraq during saddam's time and I make no

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defense of him but I went to Northern

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Iraq where the Christian Christians are

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and it was an absolutely peaceful

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situation I know not politically free

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but free for ordinary people then I went

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back a few years later to Northern Iraq

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and the position of the the Assyrian

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Christians is appalling because we

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wrongly invaded Iraq we have condemned

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hundreds of thousands of people to death

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and we have condemned tens of thousands

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of Christians to death and to flight and

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the situation now in those Villages that

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I visited just two or 3 years ago is

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even worse they're being enslaved

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beheaded by isil so what a disaster I

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know Sadam was appalling in every

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respect politically in terms of

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repression but he was no threat to the

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west and actually he protected

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Christians and actually so does Assad

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indeed the Syrian picture is almost uh a

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replica of that we had sitting in this

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very chair mother Agnes uh the Mother

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Superior uh of hes and uh hamama uh a

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gentle woman saintly woman as she talked

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about the life of Christians in Syria

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before and after this uh this disaster I

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said to William Hig you've been wrong

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before indeed you've been wrong most of

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your life but you've never been insane

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before your policy of supporting these

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jihadists in Syria is literally

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insane well I mean our whole policy is

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insane you remember that vote we had

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last year the the pressure on people

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like me as conservative MPS to support

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the prime minister to bomb Asad the

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Prime Minister actually summon me in I

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sat as Clos as to this he you know he

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begged me uh to uh to support him and I

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didn't in the end but aad again for all

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his faults and I've been to Damascus I

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went to straight Street this is a this

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is the home of Christianity this is

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where St Paul you know after his

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conversion went to this little house in

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the middle of Damascus and now we have

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condemned again because of our insane

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policy death destruction and Mayhem you

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could you couldn't make it up you

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couldn't make it up and the danger of a

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Middle East entirely free of Christians

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because they've had to flee or die

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that's the prospect that we're looking

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at moving on you mentioned the uh prime

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minister we're coming to the end of the

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parliament what would be your uh report

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card if you were writing it for him for

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David C well I'm not entirely on message

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you got to understand that with the

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Cameroon project I mean I accept that

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he's very bright he's very personable I

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personally have no diff personal

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difficulty with him at all I think he's

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actually quite a nice chap in many ways

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but I think what he's done and I've said

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this to his fa to his face is he has

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created ukip he's attempted to move the

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party to the center on things like gay

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marriage and he's alienated hundreds of

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thousands of older conservative voters

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who unfortunately are now voting ukip

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and if we're going to lose the election

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and obviously I hope as a loal

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conservative we win I don't want to see

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Ed Miller Band in Downing Street if we

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lose the election it will be because

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David Cameron has created this monster

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ukip which is eating up our support it

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is a monster isn't it ukip I mean you

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are a euroskeptic and that's why he lost

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his position in the major government um

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but this is something beyond

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euroskepticism the ukip phenomenon it is

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dredging

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uh a pond uh in which many Horrors live

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uh at the bottom it's creating in my

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opinion an an unsettled

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unhappy uh s of our population which is

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potentially quite dangerous it's like

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all right-wing insurgencies they start

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by saying everything's really miserable

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in the country and there are some bad

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things but let's face it you're pretty

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fortunate to live in this country first

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of all they convince you life is

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miserable they then say this is a fult

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of a minority and at the moment it's the

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minorities the poles or the lithuanians

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who I personally think are actually very

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hardworking comp and all the rest of it

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and the last centur Catholics too well I

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was going to say that all the all the

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bulgarians or reans the last century it

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was the Jews you know who they were all

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to F the rightwing insurgencies were

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saying and then they they make some

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progress but then they tend to implode

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because actually they get too ambitious

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and they break towards the left and I

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think this is what farage is doing now I

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mean I joke that I wouldn't join ukip

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because they're not thatch right enough

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and they're not right-wing enough he's

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actually a populist and he's trying now

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to win seats in the North in labor areas

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I don't think he's going to but he's

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starting to make his message a bit

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incoherent do you understand me it's no

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longer a straight thatcherite message no

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uh the National Health Service is a very

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good case in point they were for

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privatizing it just 12 months ago now

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they're posing as its redoutable uh def

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Enders uh you've been in Parliament now

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for uh more than 30 years uh that's a

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life sentence even Mandela only served

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uh 27 I see that you are running again

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and I see that uh John Prescott's son

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has just been chosen as your uh labor

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opponent but you must be feeling fairly

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confident with your 10,000 majority well

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I I'm frail that he's standing it's a

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bit of Glamour in Lincolnshire and I

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think he lives in in lincolshire I think

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he lives in my constituency so I welcome

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him I welcome a big labor vote because

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I'm afraid not only is he 10,000 votes

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behind it's worse than that he's in

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third place so the more people who vote

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Labor uh is a fewer people who vote ukip

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so I welcome him I'm sure he'll be an

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excellent candidate I think this is

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maybe a first try for him and then he'll

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stand uh in Hull next time and get

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elected for labor you mentioned Ed

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Miland he's scarcely setting the Heather

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on fire especially not in Scotland where

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there is Heather but according to the

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opinion polls labor is likely to be the

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largest party in the next Parliament um

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of course the impact of ukip cannot

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fully be calibrated what sort of prime

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minister do you think Ed milleran would

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be I think he'd be absolutely

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hopeless um I think he's just a I

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wouldn't mind if he was a real Lefty but

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the fact is that he's just sort of

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classic establishment left and of course

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I hate all the things like Mansion tax

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and all that so I mean I I do assure you

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that even the most independent minded of

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MPS are desperate to stop Ed getting

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into Downing Street so you can get back

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into bed with Nick Nick CLE absolutely

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not I lo him I think he's the biggest

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hypocrite in British politics I can't

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stand the man I mean if we if we're the

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largest party this time we're going to

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not let Cameron bosses around on this

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we're going to have a vote in the 22

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committee on the Saturday morning and

271
00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:23,440
we're going to vote against the

272
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,800
Coalition and we're going to go it alone

273
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,760
as a minority government as we should

274
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,120
have done last time because coalitions

275
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:32,160
don't work it's the lowest common

276
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:34,200
denominated government finally 2014 Big

277
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:37,040
Lots Lots happened the past year what's

278
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:39,560
been the big event to you um I think the

279
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:42,040
biggest event has been the Scottish

280
00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:44,519
referendum which was a fantastic display

281
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,680
of democracy and actually although you

282
00:11:44,519 --> 00:11:49,279
wouldn't think it we won you know we've

283
00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:50,839
kept the union and I'm a a romantic High

284
00:11:49,279 --> 00:11:52,600
Tor I think preserving the United

285
00:11:50,839 --> 00:11:54,519
Kingdom is much more important than

286
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,320
anything else even English votes for

287
00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:58,200
English laws it's the great victory Of

288
00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,760
The Year Scotland isn't finished though

289
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:03,320
sir Edward we fought the referendum we

290
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:07,040
were all over the country dozens of uh

291
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:11,360
public meetings and we won you're right

292
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:15,320
uh but it's not over yet I caution you

293
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:18,279
and other uh English Tories that

294
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:21,560
provocations like this English votes for

295
00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:25,800
English laws and so on are Mana from

296
00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:28,120
heaven for the SNP I really think those

297
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,720
who want to keep our small island in

298
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,720
this small world

299
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:35,079
together have to move very cautiously

300
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:38,000
and sensitively on this matter I was the

301
00:12:35,079 --> 00:12:40,760
only Tor MP in the statement this week

302
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,720
William hag statement who just made that

303
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,560
kind of cautionary remark as I've just

304
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,320
said I said the union is more important

305
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:47,639
than anything else and I say all my

306
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,880
colleagues on the tour benches were

307
00:12:47,639 --> 00:12:51,959
getting a bit over excited about this

308
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,880
the number of purely English bits of

309
00:12:51,959 --> 00:12:55,160
business are really very small and

310
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,519
actually you could deal with this by a

311
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,600
sort of double veto you could let

312
00:12:56,519 --> 00:13:01,040
Scottish MPS English MPS to the

313
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,880
committee St Age and and then have a

314
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,480
double vote with all of us and as

315
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,800
English MPS on third reading there has

316
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,519
to be a compromise you're right you

317
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,279
can't just change as I'm a conservative

318
00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:11,480
I don't believe in sudden changes in the

319
00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:13,480
Constitution so do it slowly do it by

320
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,440
consensus and don't provoke the Scots

321
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,120
because one more provocation and we

322
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,720
could lose this Union indeed and there

323
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,639
were moments in the campaign when we

324
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,199
thought we were going to lose sir Edward

325
00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:25,440
Lee you're a great man I think you and I

326
00:13:23,199 --> 00:13:28,199
should form our own uh party we'd uh

327
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:31,199
we'd sweep the country coming up after

328
00:13:28,199 --> 00:13:33,600
the break Ben Fogle on the chos islands

329
00:13:31,199 --> 00:13:37,440
you may not have heard of them but after

330
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,440
his interview you'll never forget

331
00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:50,800
them welcome back to Sputnik almost

332
00:13:47,839 --> 00:13:53,279
unbelievably in 1971 the British

333
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:56,000
overseas territory of the chos islands

334
00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:58,360
was emptied of its entire population and

335
00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,519
handed over to the US Air Force the

336
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,360
better for them to bomb and kill the

337
00:14:00,519 --> 00:14:06,040
people of Vietnam there was no Faulkland

338
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,279
Island style sovereignty for the chians

339
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,920
they were the wrong color for a start it

340
00:14:08,279 --> 00:14:13,079
was ethnic cleansing on a mass scale in

341
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,920
the war on terror it became clear

342
00:14:13,079 --> 00:14:17,079
despite the lie in Parliament to the

343
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,800
contrary by the then foreign secretary

344
00:14:17,079 --> 00:14:22,880
David miliband the US base there on

345
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:25,480
Diego Garcia still British territory was

346
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:28,199
used for secret rendition flights of

347
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,120
bewildered and blindfolded kidnappes on

348
00:14:28,199 --> 00:14:33,560
their way to Secret prisons for

349
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:36,000
unspeakable tortures milben Parting Shot

350
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,160
Auda grass which killed all remaining

351
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,480
hopes of the chagos Islanders to return

352
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:43,079
to their homes was to declare the island

353
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:45,680
as the largest Marine protected area in

354
00:14:43,079 --> 00:14:47,880
the world I.E two environmentally

355
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,800
sensitive for the human beings who once

356
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,600
lived there to return joining us now is

357
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,120
the redoubtable campaigner for the

358
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,880
rights of the chos Islanders television

359
00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,320
personality allround Adventurer and the

360
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:03,519
first of our guests I think to have his

361
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:07,160
own waxwork at Madam to swords he's Ben

362
00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:10,680
Fogle Ben thanks for joining us chagos

363
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:12,079
Diego Garcia choian most British people

364
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,000
don't know what we're talking about why

365
00:15:12,079 --> 00:15:15,880
is that well it falls under the headline

366
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,720
the British Indian Ocean territories and

367
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:21,000
it's it's one of these awful stories

368
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,639
that just goes over people's heads some

369
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,720
people might have read about it but for

370
00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:27,000
some reason it it doesn't it it doesn't

371
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,319
it doesn't stick and I don't know why

372
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,800
and I've been involved with this for

373
00:15:28,319 --> 00:15:31,399
many many years years and and the

374
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,319
headline is very simple the story is

375
00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:37,199
very simple that back in the 70s as you

376
00:15:34,319 --> 00:15:40,040
mentioned the US was looking for a a

377
00:15:37,199 --> 00:15:42,279
military base in the Indian Ocean they

378
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,920
discovered this uh small territory used

379
00:15:42,279 --> 00:15:47,399
to be part of maius which was uh part of

380
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,639
the British Empire but it it got annexed

381
00:15:47,399 --> 00:15:52,040
shortly before this deal was done and

382
00:15:49,639 --> 00:15:54,920
the British government agreed to lease

383
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,440
Diego Garcia this is the main island the

384
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,959
British Indian Ocean territories as a

385
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,839
whole is made up of many many islands

386
00:15:57,959 --> 00:16:02,800
Diego Garcia is the largest and uh and a

387
00:16:00,839 --> 00:16:05,519
deal was was given to the US for them to

388
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,920
lease it for 50 years to build this huge

389
00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:10,240
military base and the people were were

390
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,000
written out of History they they were

391
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,480
why why did the people have to be

392
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,800
removed there are many places with

393
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:18,399
military bases but they still got people

394
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,160
the us predicted way ahead of what has

395
00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:23,000
recently been discovered that this was

396
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,800
going to be a a very secretive place

397
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,519
they didn't want any hum part of the

398
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,440
deal was that there could be no natives

399
00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:32,000
as they called them there could be no

400
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,920
native population there so White Hall

401
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:37,120
went back suddenly discovered that there

402
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,759
were between 1500 and 18800 Islanders

403
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,839
choian people uh living there and they

404
00:16:39,759 --> 00:16:44,000
decided to to wipe them off the face of

405
00:16:41,839 --> 00:16:45,759
the Earth that I don't mean kill them

406
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,480
they stripped them of their passports up

407
00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:49,720
until that stage they had British uh

408
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,920
citizenship and they deported them where

409
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,319
they put them in uh refugee camps in

410
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,160
maius and the SE shells the two nearest

411
00:16:54,319 --> 00:16:58,959
Island chains and they were forgotten

412
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:02,040
about until uh various people started

413
00:16:58,959 --> 00:17:05,120
campaigning and then in 2000 uh the late

414
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:07,520
Robin Cook um agreed to return their

415
00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:09,400
passports they won a high court uh uh

416
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,880
bid for the right to return their

417
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,240
passports were returned to them and a

418
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,640
number came over to the UK and settled

419
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,439
very close to gwick where they landed

420
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,640
they settled in Crawley and that's where

421
00:17:16,439 --> 00:17:20,160
they've lived ever since but they they

422
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,400
they that might seem like a large number

423
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,880
of people 400 but they are effectively

424
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,919
voiceless and that's why me a white

425
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,880
Englishman have spent the last 10 15

426
00:17:27,919 --> 00:17:32,080
years trying to to campaign on their

427
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,679
part trying to to bring this to the

428
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,960
Forefront of politics well thank God for

429
00:17:34,679 --> 00:17:39,320
you it's nothing for the Americans to

430
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:42,200
ethnically cleansed territories that's

431
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:45,160
what their state was based upon what is

432
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:49,039
remarkable to me that in the 1970s quite

433
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:51,880
a radical decade this wasn't seen as the

434
00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:55,440
gigantic Scandal that it now seems at

435
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:57,640
least to me did it make no impact uh

436
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,400
when whiteall agreed to this it was all

437
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,400
it was all done very secretive

438
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,240
and you you alluded to the Forkland

439
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,760
Islands it was just a decade later when

440
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,360
we were going to war to fight for the

441
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,280
rights of those Islanders it it doesn't

442
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:10,159
make sense except for the color the fact

443
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,480
that the the Forkland Islanders are

444
00:18:10,159 --> 00:18:15,640
white and the people from the choian

445
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,559
have much darker skin and and that's

446
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,039
what I can understand that the people

447
00:18:17,559 --> 00:18:22,799
perhaps in Great Britain didn't care I I

448
00:18:20,039 --> 00:18:25,520
I don't know exactly why there wasn't a

449
00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:28,320
bigger fuss made up in interestingly a

450
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,960
couple of years later um uh it was

451
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:33,080
revealed that about 800 dogs the pets of

452
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,640
all the Islanders had been gassed at the

453
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,039
time and that was almost front page news

454
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,240
people were more horrified that um that

455
00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:41,880
the dogs had been killed but it was

456
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:44,120
symbolic of so the US didn't even want

457
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,039
want the Labradors to see what they they

458
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:48,840
didn't even want dogs on the islands and

459
00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:50,679
uh and and what really angered me was

460
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:54,120
several years ago when this Marine

461
00:18:50,679 --> 00:18:56,080
protectorate uh this Marine status was

462
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:59,280
given to the to the islands was rolled

463
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:02,080
through I was um I was asked to back

464
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,880
this bid by a number of uh environmental

465
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,960
organizations I I am a self-confessed

466
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,000
environmentalist I'm a conservationist

467
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,880
and I was happy to do it on the

468
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,360
understanding the Islanders would still

469
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,720
have the opportunity to return but of

470
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:17,919
course what we've since discovered is

471
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:22,440
this MPA this Marine protector area

472
00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:23,960
effectively wipes out excludes any toor

473
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,080
because they they could never you know a

474
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,440
lot of people have asked well if they

475
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,400
did return what could they do how could

476
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,960
they possibly resettle these Islands

477
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:34,039
well fishing would be a a big Mainstay

478
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,320
and and I have been fortunate enough to

479
00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:37,520
visit these islands this is one of the

480
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:41,240
reasons I'm so passionate about it I I

481
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:43,960
visited about 10 years ago I went in

482
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:47,000
pseudo legally but uh I actually got

483
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,200
chased Away by uh by uh the British Navy

484
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,600
interestingly they they were the ones

485
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,120
that patrolled the water so where did

486
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,760
you travel from and to I I started my

487
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:56,679
journey uh down in the males right down

488
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,960
in the in the most southern area I found

489
00:19:56,679 --> 00:20:01,360
a a boat and I charted it at took a

490
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,799
couple of days to get there and what

491
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:04,600
really horrified me was not just

492
00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:06,320
visiting these islands which are full of

493
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,760
the derelict homes there's still

494
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,960
magazines there's cups it's it's like a

495
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,159
place Frozen it's like a ghost time it's

496
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,679
it's like a place where people have the

497
00:20:13,159 --> 00:20:16,880
door has opened they've been told get

498
00:20:14,679 --> 00:20:19,760
out and they've left everything as it

499
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,600
was the the the the houses are now

500
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,679
obviously have been uh encroached by the

501
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,760
jungle but the churches are still there

502
00:20:23,679 --> 00:20:28,240
the graveyard is still there the shops

503
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,080
the the you have a real sense of the

504
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,720
place it once was a thriving Community

505
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,000
where people lived very very happily and

506
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,919
what's even more shocking is that there

507
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,760
are now kind of new AG Travelers I I

508
00:20:36,919 --> 00:20:41,280
don't mean that in that sense but there

509
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,679
are now Yachts men and women from all

510
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,400
across the world living there living in

511
00:20:42,679 --> 00:20:47,520
these houses so they're not supposed to

512
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,760
be there so I I can't I couldn't get my

513
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,799
head around the fact that these

514
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:54,600
Islanders who are a desperate group in

515
00:20:51,799 --> 00:20:56,640
in maitia stells and and lond Crawley

516
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,080
now why they're not allowed to go home

517
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,880
and yet these people who have the

518
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,440
benefit of of their own boats can go

519
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,000
back to these islands it didn't make

520
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,400
sense uh I was eventually we tried to

521
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,120
get closer to Diego Garcia and the Royal

522
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,640
Navy came up to us and very politely uh

523
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:15,640
asked us uh to move on but I was there

524
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:17,760
for long enough to see that in my eyes

525
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,120
my opinion those islands could be

526
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,159
resettled there's just been a

527
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:23,559
feasibility study I went to see William

528
00:21:21,159 --> 00:21:26,679
ha last year to ask about this

529
00:21:23,559 --> 00:21:29,080
feasibility study he got KPMG to to do

530
00:21:26,679 --> 00:21:31,000
this report and they have come up with I

531
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,840
suppose you could argue it's it's

532
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:36,080
relatively positive they have said that

533
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:38,240
there is no legal obstacle to the

534
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,720
Islanders returning they've estimated

535
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,720
that for 150 Islanders it would cost uh

536
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,880
uh1 million pound a year I think that's

537
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,120
way too high maybe that's my adventuring

538
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,799
background I think life could be done

539
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,520
much simpler than that they don't need a

540
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:52,799
great big hospital they need a very

541
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,360
simple little medical facility a get

542
00:21:52,799 --> 00:21:58,039
volunteer doctors I've always argued

543
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:59,640
that if this Marine protectorate area is

544
00:21:58,039 --> 00:22:02,039
there to say then let's bring back the

545
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,159
Islanders in the capacity as wardens as

546
00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:06,600
protectors let's let make them look

547
00:22:04,159 --> 00:22:08,000
after this area themselves and and

548
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,799
that's the excuse for them to go back

549
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,600
let's bring scientists back they can

550
00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:14,159
study so I I don't see that there is

551
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,840
anything to preclude their return but

552
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:18,360
the government consecutively both labor

553
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,600
and conservative governments have made

554
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:24,720
it and the and the um Coalition now have

555
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:27,080
made it increasingly hard for the

556
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,559
Islanders to return and I think quite

557
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,000
frankly they wish that this would just

558
00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:31,200
disappear but it's people like me and

559
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,000
I'm not the only one incidentally there

560
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:36,760
are there are a group of us who've been

561
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:39,159
campaigned uh for many many years try to

562
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,120
keep this uh in in the headlines and

563
00:22:39,159 --> 00:22:44,480
next year it's going to go to Parliament

564
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:47,159
and it's down to MPS to decide on the

565
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,400
fate of the choian they it's it's our

566
00:22:47,159 --> 00:22:51,919
Parliament who will once and for all

567
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,880
make that decision as to whether

568
00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:56,799
irelanders can go back to Diego Garcia

569
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,200
and live within sight of the Airfield I

570
00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:59,840
don't think the US have anything to hide

571
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,559
now we know what's just been going on

572
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,240
the CIA released it Ben you mentioned in

573
00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:07,000
the beginning that there was a 50 years

574
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,760
lease given to the Americans but some 20

575
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,640
years left what happens at the end of

576
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,520
that 20 years well actually the 50 years

577
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,279
is up now because it was done in ' 64 so

578
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,080
it's over now but there was an extension

579
00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:19,159
a possible extension of 20 years which

580
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,720
is actually was included in it so that

581
00:23:19,159 --> 00:23:23,720
is accepted that it it will go ahead

582
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,799
unless there are extenuating

583
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,840
circumstances I would personally argue

584
00:23:25,799 --> 00:23:31,360
that the revelations that the islands

585
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:33,760
were used as a place of torture would be

586
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,480
extenuating circumstances the choian

587
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,200
people themselves the choian support

588
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:42,080
group uh based here in the UK certainly

589
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:45,080
um have agreed that they will back that

590
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:47,840
um 20 years as long as the US agree to

591
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,600
let them return to Diego Garcia Island

592
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,720
itself it would be a natural place for

593
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,559
them to begin the reinhabitation of the

594
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,400
islands there's water there's

595
00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:57,440
electricity they've got all the basic

596
00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,400
infrastructure that they could possibly

597
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,360
need well there's 4,000 US military

598
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,080
people that live there they've got

599
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:05,480
swimming pools they've got basketball

600
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,240
courts they've got cafeterias the the US

601
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,000
have have lived there very very happily

602
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:13,000
for for 50 years so why can't the choian

603
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:17,480
people it's hard work but somebody's got

604
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:21,960
to do it the uh Revelations that you

605
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,919
allude to there are uh dark and Sinister

606
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,039
not only that Diego Garcia may have been

607
00:24:23,919 --> 00:24:29,360
a staging post for these Renditions

608
00:24:27,039 --> 00:24:32,240
which are effectively International

609
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:34,480
kidnappings but that torture at the base

610
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,080
may also have taken place can you shed

611
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:39,120
any light on that I can't necessarily

612
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,840
shed any Li except for speak for my own

613
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:43,480
opinions or thoughts on that it's it's

614
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,240
horrific it's horrific on a on a basic

615
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,200
level that these tortures happened

616
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:51,240
anyway but the fact that we have leased

617
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,520
these islands to the Americans makes us

618
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:57,320
complicit whether we've discover any

619
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,919
more um uh details about how involved we

620
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,880
were in these tortures don't know but

621
00:24:58,919 --> 00:25:04,480
the bottom line is that we lease these

622
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:06,360
islands uh arguably in good faith but

623
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,919
that simply was not the case and that's

624
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:11,200
why I will carry on fighting this

625
00:25:07,919 --> 00:25:13,520
campaign well God bless you I was there

626
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:16,799
when David millerand spoke I saw his

627
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,279
lips move when he denied that any of

628
00:25:16,799 --> 00:25:21,760
these rendition flights had passed

629
00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:24,279
through Diego Garcia it was a bright

630
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:29,399
shining lie Ben Fogle thanks very much

631
00:25:24,279 --> 00:25:29,399
more power to your elbow thank you

632
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,799
alas that's all we've got time for do

633
00:25:32,679 --> 00:25:37,679
stay in touch with us in the new year on

634
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:40,159
Twitter rtor Sputnik and on Facebook you

635
00:25:37,679 --> 00:25:42,559
can like us on Sputnik on Russia Today

636
00:25:40,159 --> 00:25:44,720
Happy New Year from me gatri and from me

637
00:25:42,559 --> 00:25:47,880
George Galloway it's been marvelous most

638
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,880
of it

639
00:25:51,270 --> 00:25:54,329
[Music]

640
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,520
oh