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[Music]

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okay

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I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gri HSBC

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bestrides the banking world like a

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Colossus but it's in big trouble it has

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paid penalties of millions of dollars

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for doing business with Mexican drug

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cartels and other doy dealings and that

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was before that Old Reliable of scandals

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a Swiss banking IM brolio burst upon on

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the scene like a box of rotting

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eggs a dirty laundry list as long as

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Oxford Street has been revealed

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involving some big names and even some

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members of parliament of course I'm not

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one of them but Lords have been a

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leaping Lords we didn't know existed who

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knew that Britain was in part governed

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by someone called Lord thinkink I'm not

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making that up but he was one of the tax

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Dodgers along with other Lords and

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beneficiaries of trust funds set up by

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their billion

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fathers it was not the attraction of

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Swiss cheese which drew them to Geneva

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but rather the opportunity to either

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evade or avoid hex joining us now to

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survey the mountain of troubles

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surrounding this as an alternative

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Economist of great distinction Professor

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Steve Keen is the author of a wonderful

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book debunking economics and the head of

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school at Kingston University Professor

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Keen thanks it's an honor for you to

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join us you saw all this coming survey

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the rotting eggs for us if you will oh

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it's the banking sector is as as Marx

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and Canes both separately put it is a

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great servant and a terrible master and

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what we've allowed happen in the last 50

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years is they've gone from the days when

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the banks were effectively the Servants

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of the the industrial sector providing

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the money they needed for investment and

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so on through to the stage where the

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Masters not just of the industrial

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sector but the politicians as well

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indeed so and uh David Cameron ennobled

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the head of HSBC even though he must

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have known that this and other scandals

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were either in the pipeline or had bust

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wide open already well there have been

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plenty of scandals in the financial

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sector all the way through if you go

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back and look at even the the formation

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of City Bank that formation broke the

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law in America at the time and if you

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know that hilarious photograph of Bill

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Clinton signing a document with a big

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smile on his

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face as big as other times and I'm sure

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is surrounded by a whole bunch of people

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smiling Financial faces he was

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legalizing an illegal act of forming a

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merger now the the classic statement

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about Bankers I think was made by Wester

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stragen uh Premier many many years ago

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talking about a particular uh Ponzi

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schema called lri Connell and he was

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known as last resort lri in Western

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Australia the last person if you needed

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money lri would provide it but it would

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cost you an arm and a leg and a couple

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of other useful parts of your body and

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uh Lori you see the premier said he

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wouldn't want to stand between lri

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Connell and a bucket of money now banks

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are by definition buckets of money and

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this sort of behavior is just endemic in

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them when you let them to get to be as

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big and as politically powerful as

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they've come under neoliberalism that's

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what it is isn't it uh you put your

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finger on it it's systemic it's not

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because you have a particular scoundrel

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heading this bank or another the only

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thing I just say did did wrong was being

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caught yeah how were they caught by the

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way by a whistleblower and this is where

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it comes down to individuals having a

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sense of Ethics that's far stronger than

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these institutions themselves have who

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had access to the computer records had

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the the the intelligence to know how to

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pull those records out and then got

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arrested in in Switzerland managed to

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get out on bail and then jumped

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countries got to France and here you

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have to have great respect for the

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French authorities when they saw what he

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had they wouldn't get get extradited

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back to Switzerland where it would have

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all completely disappeared had they

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taken him back there so the French

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looked at it and they they saw the

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amount of evasion going on and the

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French said this is a is in sense a gold

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mine for us we know we haven't been

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getting the tax revenues from the

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wealthy now we know a large part of the

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reason why let's prosecute this and the

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English who normally I respect for the

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extent to which they allow political

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liberalism pretty much completely

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ignored the information coming across

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from the French until the Press broke it

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in the last few months well this is

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another important point you've put your

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finger on because the contradiction here

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is that the state

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any state needs this money really badly

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so they're caught uh in a kind of uh

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Paradigm in which their neoliberal

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instincts are to allow the rich to run

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rampant yeah but their bills their uh

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debits as states require going after

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these tax avoiders I know and what it

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tends to happen is they don't go after

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them instead they impose strictures upon

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the working class and the middle class

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who can't get away way and they cut back

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on the services we get so they have le

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less of a gap between their their

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Taxation and their and their spending so

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this is a classic case where I I look

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back and see many brilliant statements

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in the past remember of course the

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phrase the military industrial complex

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was coined by President Eisenhower of

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all people of all people I think he was

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wrong unfortunately because the military

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industrial complex is a far better beast

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to run you than what I call the

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political Financial complex we now have

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there's more real jobs uh there's more

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real jobs at least they they make stuff

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and they blow it up later but in the

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case of the financial sector they create

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nothing they create Ponzi schemes and

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the the politicians have now got so used

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to a financial sector at the scale of

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the sector we now have that they can't

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imagine it any other way so we go

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through a financial crisis and what is

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their first response after the Panic

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spending that stopped us going into a

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complete Great Depression their first

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response is to rescue the financial

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sector and get it back to the sky back

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to what it was before before it brought

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us to the edge of the cliff and yet at

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the same time when you try to talk about

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policies which might actually benefit

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the ordinary person things like like

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what I call quantitative easing for the

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people or a modern debt juilee you told

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that's going to raise moral hazard what

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on Earth do they think they've been I

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don't know if there's any Minister left

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with the HSPA to use the phrase moral

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hazard because morality was the first

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casualty of all of this we're trapped in

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what someone once called the Great money

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trick the great money illusion yeah tell

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us what an alternative economy would

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look like well I mean there's plenty of

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people putting out proposals which

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effectively trying to stop the financial

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sector having the capacity to create

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money which is where this largely

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emanates from uh and what that means is

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who else creates money and that gives

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you the government as the only other

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possible source of money creation and

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the government has been deliberately

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falling down on its job because they

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don't think they should do that anymore

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so they've handed the whole

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responsibility over the Neal because of

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neoliberal ideology the nonsense

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economic Vision that conventional

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economics has which talks and tells us

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how to run the monetary system while the

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models themselves largely ignore the

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existence of banks debt money completely

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it's ironic that they do that but there

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is nonetheless a need for private money

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creation and a need for government money

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creation we live in a mixed economy you

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need both of them to happen but you want

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that money creation to be done sensibly

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wisely the trouble is the bigger these

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Banks get the less they know about the

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customers they deal with they go from

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back in the old days of the Jimmy

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Stewart style Bank where he knew

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everybody in the town he knew whose idea

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was likely to be a good one and who he

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knew their dog he knew their granny yeah

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and this was a large part of the old

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glass deagle act uh by breaking American

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Banks down making them Regional and

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giving them just just a very tiny

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physical Thief over which they had the

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capacity to cre issue loans and

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therefore create money they largely did

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it for successful businesses businesses

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they had some feeling were going to be

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successful so there personal knowledge

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and the half of the the managers and so

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on and I've come to realize over time I

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didn't think it was all that important

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looking back on it but when you look at

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what's happened now you've gone from

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that level to where it's credit scoring

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and point systems and I've been

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contacted by people who write the

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software that does the point scoring

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system for some of the banks in

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Australia and they're now selling it

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globally and they tell me that it's a 20

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second process to go from somebody

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applying for it to working how much

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collateral they have to deciding to give

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them alone that is the sort of thing

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that gives you Bubbles and Ponzi schemes

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and the capacity of the banks to behave

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illegally and call it management call it

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banking so I I think we have to go back

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to the days when Banks were

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small the whole idea of large Banks

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itself is a problem and we have to go

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back to the point where Banks largely

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only make their money by lending to

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genuine businesses because instead what

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they're doing they're creating money we

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need them to do but they're creating

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money into the housing sector into the

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share markets etc etc all they're doing

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is inflating asset Bubbles and a

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remainder washes over into the real

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economy but we don't get that creative

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generation of new businesses that we

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should be getting out of their capacity

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to create money everybody should know

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what a pzi scheme is but they don't uh

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is it a kind of pyramid selling a Ponzi

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scheme is a is a scheme where you make

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money by getting more money coming in

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than you're dealing out but you're

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actually not producing anything in the

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middle or largely so Charles Ponzi who's

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the of course the classic for it believe

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that he worked out a way to make money

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through Arbitrage of St STS back in the

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19 late 1910s and what he realized was

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there these the stamp uh authorities

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globally enabled you to buy a stamp with

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an American dollar and then get a stamp

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in Italy when you sent to get a return

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post and he realized that because of the

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change in currency values after the

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00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:21,320
first world war there was a huge gap it

276
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,760
was cheaper to buy them in Italy and

277
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,399
bring them to America so there was his

278
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,600
actually way to try to make money he

279
00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:29,839
never managed to organize it he promised

280
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,839
people a 50% return in 45 days is and

281
00:10:29,839 --> 00:10:33,800
the 46th day elaps before it even worked

282
00:10:31,839 --> 00:10:35,240
out the scheme so the next the First

283
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,760
depositor turns up wanting his money

284
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,320
back he gave him the money from the

285
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,399
second and third depositor so they grow

286
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,920
and then they collapse and that's in the

287
00:10:41,399 --> 00:10:44,560
sense I see the housing sector is the

288
00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,639
same thing no it's a pretty good uh

289
00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:49,880
description of of our

290
00:10:46,639 --> 00:10:52,560
situation having said that the HSBC

291
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:55,560
Scandal is systematic HSBC being the

292
00:10:52,560 --> 00:11:00,760
largest bank in Britain which bank is

293
00:10:55,560 --> 00:11:03,440
next and can be I mean we Bank houses in

294
00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,160
its bowels a ethical honest

295
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,760
whistleblower with access to computer

296
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,360
technology it's just simple as I don't

297
00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,800
know that's all it comes down to the

298
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:13,120
British government is blocking an

299
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:15,560
inquiry into the HSBC Scandal yeah can

300
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,959
you imagine not holding an inquiry into

301
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:18,839
something that might be done by labor

302
00:11:16,959 --> 00:11:20,600
Council somewhere of course they'll do

303
00:11:18,839 --> 00:11:22,160
it when you get this huge thing by

304
00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,399
people who are donors to the political

305
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:28,320
party in power oh why bother

306
00:11:25,399 --> 00:11:30,440
well you've identified several key

307
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,720
points and a way that's the one we'll

308
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:35,560
have to close on this is entirely

309
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,959
circular politicians go and work for

310
00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:39,920
these Banks when they cease being

311
00:11:36,959 --> 00:11:42,120
politicians yeah the bankers make huge

312
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,399
donations to the politicians when

313
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:47,320
they're politicians and the politicians

314
00:11:44,399 --> 00:11:50,279
legislate for a framework and inquiry or

315
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,920
no inquiry to the benefit of the people

316
00:11:50,279 --> 00:11:54,040
who help them get into power in the

317
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,800
first place and Will employ them later

318
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,120
yeah it's a rotten uh box of eggs this

319
00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,440
isn't it it is indeed but if they're

320
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,760
going to go work for Jimmy Stewart they

321
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,480
wouldn't get paid enough and it wouldn't

322
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,480
happen we need to get back to small

323
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:07,800
Banks Professor I really encourage

324
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,880
everyone to get this book it's published

325
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:13,160
by Zed and it's called debunking

326
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,519
economics uh the now there's a question

327
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,440
mark it says the emperor dethroned

328
00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:20,120
question mark it's the question mark

329
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,760
that interests me if I were if we were

330
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,880
lucky enough still to be here in 20

331
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:27,160
years are we still going to be in this

332
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:28,360
mess well Yannis ver farcus being a good

333
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,560
friend of mine caught in the same

334
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,839
situation the feeling you might still be

335
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:34,839
caught there as why he's pushing for

336
00:12:31,839 --> 00:12:36,040
reform rather than Revolution and I

337
00:12:34,839 --> 00:12:37,399
think the same thing I think I'm going

338
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,000
to stuck with a question mark I'd like

339
00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:40,880
to have an exclamation mark one of these

340
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,680
days but I'm never confident about that

341
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,880
me too I'm looking forward to that

342
00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:46,839
exclamation mark Professor Steve kin

343
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,760
you're a real star turn I must say you

344
00:12:46,839 --> 00:12:50,839
make economics understandable to

345
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,240
Ordinary People and that's not common

346
00:12:50,839 --> 00:12:55,839
thanks for joining us on the Sputnik

347
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,399
coming up after the break it's almost 50

348
00:12:55,839 --> 00:13:00,240
years since the Killing Fields in

349
00:12:57,399 --> 00:13:02,800
Indonesia my own country Millions were

350
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,680
murdered and if you want to know by whom

351
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,279
and what happened next it's all coming

352
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:07,279
up after the

353
00:13:08,590 --> 00:13:11,649
[Music]

354
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:22,199
break welcome back to Sputnik in 1967

355
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:25,000
Indonesia's Founding Father president

356
00:13:22,199 --> 00:13:27,160
sukaro was overthrown in a US organized

357
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,560
school one of the organizers Henry

358
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,360
Kissinger still alive the the military

359
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:33,800
cease power appointed the dictator

360
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,760
suharto who then proceeded to Massacre

361
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:39,440
millions of sukarno supporters the act

362
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,920
of killing a film by Joshua Oppenheimer

363
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,160
which has won awards all over the world

364
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,120
represents the only International

365
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,160
recognition of the crimes against

366
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,519
humanity which were carried out in those

367
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,360
days it is a part of world history

368
00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:55,240
however that we are determined to

369
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:58,600
recover and to try and hold to account

370
00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:02,160
the perpetrators alive or dead joining

371
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:05,360
us now is Dr suen marching who's working

372
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:09,759
on a memoir of that period Dr Sue thank

373
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:12,079
you for joining us uh the Act of Killing

374
00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:16,720
brought to an international audience for

375
00:14:12,079 --> 00:14:19,600
the first time in 50 years the

376
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,920
massacre which has not been seen since

377
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:27,160
the Holocaust of millions of people yes

378
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:29,560
in an important country uh the uh one of

379
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,680
the most populous countries in the world

380
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,120
yet almost nobody knows anything about

381
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:37,199
it that adds insult to injury doesn't it

382
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,480
oh yes of course and not only that um

383
00:14:37,199 --> 00:14:42,199
even now they're still in power even and

384
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,120
they as a vice president even yeah yes

385
00:14:42,199 --> 00:14:46,240
exactly and the victims and their

386
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,199
families are still stigmatized and even

387
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:51,320
prosecuted you know tell us what

388
00:14:48,199 --> 00:14:55,480
happened in 1965 what happened was there

389
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:58,000
was um in um on the 1st of October there

390
00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:00,639
was a murder of generals and the

391
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,360
Communist Party was blamed for that and

392
00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:04,279
then the blame was not only on the

393
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,519
Communist party but also the Communist

394
00:15:04,279 --> 00:15:08,839
as a whole and also the Laughing

395
00:15:06,519 --> 00:15:10,440
sympathizers and my father was one of

396
00:15:08,839 --> 00:15:13,399
the victims he was

397
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:16,000
imprisoned and there was basically

398
00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:18,680
murder squads uh room in the streets

399
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,120
looking for first people who were

400
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,600
Communists and second people who were

401
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,759
Indonesians of Chinese

402
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,560
ethnicity they to be the base of the

403
00:15:26,759 --> 00:15:31,920
left yes and left being sympathizers and

404
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:34,399
not only sympathizers actually anyone um

405
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,800
could be murdered or could be imprisoned

406
00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:38,959
if if the the official say the official

407
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:43,680
just point their fingers to them that's

408
00:15:38,959 --> 00:15:45,920
it they they would be booked and um the

409
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,680
the number of the people murdered is

410
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,600
still not really known now some mention

411
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,040
1 million some two million some 3

412
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:55,519
Millions but the commander one two or

413
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:57,040
three million ex these numbers are are

414
00:15:55,519 --> 00:15:59,720
almost

415
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:03,160
incomprehensible uh to people in the Act

416
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:05,720
of Killing we saw some of the

417
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,680
perpetrators not only describe what they

418
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:11,560
did but act it out they boast they

419
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:14,959
boasted of it and they acted it out how

420
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:17,120
they killed people with piano wire and

421
00:16:14,959 --> 00:16:18,959
decapitate they tell and they tell about

422
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,000
this while walking about in a shopping

423
00:16:18,959 --> 00:16:22,720
mall with their family yes that's a

424
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,560
problem because they are proud of it

425
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,600
because they are seen as Heroes and they

426
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,440
see themselves as Heroes that's the

427
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,720
problem right because the victims are

428
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,959
still victim IED are still um

429
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,480
stigmatized so that's why the perers

430
00:16:32,959 --> 00:16:38,399
have this opportunity to say that we are

431
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,880
heroes and this is the problem for me if

432
00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:42,000
the government hasn't done anything and

433
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,360
doesn't want to do anything then that's

434
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,519
why we have to do something and um at

435
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:49,319
the moment that's why we we have um

436
00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:52,000
established this uh organization called

437
00:16:49,319 --> 00:16:55,880
ip65 International people tribunals

438
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:59,399
against the um genocide in

439
00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:02,199
1965 and this tribunal is based where

440
00:16:59,399 --> 00:17:04,640
it's based in um in the Netherlands so

441
00:17:02,199 --> 00:17:06,959
it started there it actually it started

442
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,480
um because of the film um by Jos

443
00:17:06,959 --> 00:17:11,520
appenheimer The Act of Killing and then

444
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,079
we just thought look is this all we must

445
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:16,280
do something after this right we must

446
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:18,160
take action and if the government

447
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,160
doesn't do anything then we the people

448
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,559
have to do something so that's why

449
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:27,160
that's what we did we um established

450
00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:29,360
this and by RPD 65 it means that this is

451
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,679
a court case held by the

452
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:33,679
people yes a people's tribunal of course

453
00:17:31,679 --> 00:17:37,799
I'm familiar with the with the with the

454
00:17:33,679 --> 00:17:40,080
model the how did it come to pass that

455
00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:42,520
the Communist Party in

456
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:45,080
Indonesia which was one of the biggest

457
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,360
in the whole world third third biggest

458
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:50,280
Communist Party outside of Russia and

459
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:53,640
China yes yes after Russia and China

460
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:56,600
Indonesia's party was the biggest it had

461
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:58,520
millions of supporters many millions of

462
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:02,440
supporters because Indonesia is a big

463
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:04,640
place yes uh uh how was it able to be

464
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:07,159
crushed so

465
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,840
comprehensively still illegal doesn't

466
00:18:07,159 --> 00:18:13,039
exist the left doesn't exist in

467
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:17,600
Indonesia 50 years later there is no

468
00:18:13,039 --> 00:18:20,960
left uh and when one talks as I have to

469
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,520
a Indonesian Chinese I asked them if

470
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,520
they were Chinese they were really

471
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,159
shocked scandalized that I would ask

472
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:30,120
them they were instinctively afraid of

473
00:18:27,159 --> 00:18:32,039
that question because The Witch Hunt

474
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:34,200
against people of Chinese they would say

475
00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:37,919
no no I'm Indonesian yeah yeah how did

476
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:40,240
this happen was it like salami the the

477
00:18:37,919 --> 00:18:42,799
people were taken one by one in small

478
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:45,440
slices why did the party why was the

479
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:47,039
party not able to defend itself they

480
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,880
were not ready and they didn't know that

481
00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:52,880
this would happen I think because uh my

482
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,919
my my father this is this is the story

483
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,360
of my father my mom kept telling me that

484
00:18:54,919 --> 00:18:58,760
he was not involved in the Communist

485
00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:00,840
Party he was only in the um leting organ

486
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,880
ganization he didn't really know what

487
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:06,600
happened only two years ago my mother

488
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:09,120
told me something else she called me and

489
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,760
she said look your father was actually

490
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,919
one of the committee members of the

491
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,919
Indonesian communist they kept this from

492
00:19:12,919 --> 00:19:17,039
you all this time they kept this as a

493
00:19:14,919 --> 00:19:18,760
secret one of the community members it's

494
00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:20,799
not like a big one he's not like an

495
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:24,760
important one and that's why he was not

496
00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:26,679
murdered and he was just appointed um

497
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,000
just before the genocide happened so not

498
00:19:26,679 --> 00:19:30,960
many people found out about it and my

499
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,960
mom burned all of the papers so that's

500
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,559
why he was not murdered but he didn't

501
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,400
know anything so they weren't ready they

502
00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:38,919
didn't know what was going on so when

503
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,640
the genocide happened they got confused

504
00:19:38,919 --> 00:19:42,600
also the people well it's the job of a

505
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,559
communist to know what's going on why

506
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,679
did no one come to their aid why did

507
00:19:45,559 --> 00:19:49,760
China not come to their aid why did the

508
00:19:47,679 --> 00:19:52,039
Soviet Union not come to their aid was

509
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,960
it impossible in the world balance of

510
00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:56,880
power at that time I think it was it was

511
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,080
just a matter of benefit if it didn't

512
00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,360
disadvantage them they wouldn't they

513
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:04,280
wouldn't do anything I think and it

514
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:07,559
didn't really you know Advantage anyone

515
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,799
to defend Indonesia at that time I think

516
00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:10,559
why was the US so determined to get rid

517
00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:13,039
of

518
00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:15,120
Sarno well because Indonesia was really

519
00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:17,760
in a way you know it it was a big

520
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:20,600
country and if it became communist it

521
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,720
was dangerous for the west and for China

522
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,799
and Russia to oppose the West maybe it

523
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,080
was just too impossible for them they

524
00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:29,280
they have they had to consider the gain

525
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,360
then because in sano's time Indonesia

526
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,159
was really something yeah it had hosted

527
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:37,679
the bandong conference it had become a

528
00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:42,120
poll around which much of the so-called

529
00:20:37,679 --> 00:20:45,919
non-aligned movement uh was uh was uh

530
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:47,840
orbiting uh and uh therefore a decision

531
00:20:45,919 --> 00:20:50,159
was made in Washington I mean I know you

532
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,360
want to instinctively you want to blame

533
00:20:50,159 --> 00:20:55,480
the actual perpetrators but the

534
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:58,280
masterminds of this massacre were in

535
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,400
Washington you can say that yes we can

536
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,200
say that that this is actually in

537
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,159
Washington because the CIA had been

538
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,159
planning it for years and years and

539
00:21:03,159 --> 00:21:08,280
years but um with the IP actually we

540
00:21:06,159 --> 00:21:11,279
don't concentrate on the perpetrators

541
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,880
and who who who was um in a way who was

542
00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:14,559
The Mastermind or everything we

543
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,760
concentrate on the victims to

544
00:21:14,559 --> 00:21:18,840
rehabilitate them that's that's more

545
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,440
important for us at at the moment get

546
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,559
back in society yes to get back the

547
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,320
society and to to basically to be

548
00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:27,000
admitted you know to for the government

549
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,880
to admit that they are victims and stop

550
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,600
stigmatizing them because um you know

551
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,760
I've seen the movie The Railway Man

552
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:37,760
actually and there the victim met meets

553
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:40,279
the perpetrator he can only forgive the

554
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:43,120
perpetrator when the perpetrator says

555
00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:46,400
yes you have been victimized and I am

556
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:48,799
sorry for that before then it's

557
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,320
impossible what about compensation uh

558
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:53,760
people lost their fathers their husbands

559
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,679
their brothers mothers sisters they lost

560
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,480
property they lost their businesses yes

561
00:21:56,679 --> 00:22:01,880
uh Indonesia is a very rich country yes

562
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,679
shouldn't people be financially

563
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,760
compensated I think so I do believe in

564
00:22:04,679 --> 00:22:09,120
that that people have to be compensated

565
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,640
but that's a long way from what what we

566
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:14,039
expect this like we you know if if if

567
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,480
the victims are still stigmatized they

568
00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:18,159
have to be acknowledge first as victims

569
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,640
and they're still really angry they you

570
00:22:18,159 --> 00:22:22,120
know a lot of them are depressed and I I

571
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,039
mean I can't really blame them for being

572
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:30,080
angry what about the new president now

573
00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:34,559
uh he's not a leftist uh but uh he leans

574
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:36,360
in the direction of sano's ideas uh

575
00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:38,720
although his vice president is one of

576
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:41,520
the criminals yes I'm quite disappointed

577
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,400
with it yeah uh are you likely to get

578
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,320
any justice from the new president of

579
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:49,159
Indonesia I was hopeful to be honest but

580
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,919
now I start doubting him he is still

581
00:22:49,159 --> 00:22:53,559
much much better than his opponent you

582
00:22:50,919 --> 00:22:57,240
know than pra OB you know much better

583
00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:59,000
and I I I I don't regret um electing him

584
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,200
voting for him but

585
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,559
um I start doubting it and I think um

586
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,880
you know doubting doesn't mean that you

587
00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:07,600
don't do anything we have to do more you

588
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,240
know we have to make an effort because

589
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,720
well he he he'll only be able to do

590
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:14,200
anything if there's a big swell of

591
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,520
popular we have to do something we have

592
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:19,799
to keep fing whatever you know um we

593
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,520
believe in and and to push the the

594
00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:25,320
government and that's why this is the

595
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:27,559
the function of ipd um 1965 we want to

596
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,720
put pressure on the government and on

597
00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:34,039
the United Nations look you know this is

598
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:37,520
important and why you keep quiet yeah

599
00:23:34,039 --> 00:23:40,880
well Indonesia was once great under Saro

600
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:43,679
let's hope it can return to center stage

601
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,799
in world events in the next period good

602
00:23:43,679 --> 00:23:48,840
luck with your tribunal there's anything

603
00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:51,960
we can do to help we're more than happy

604
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,679
to do so thank you George thank you Dr

605
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:57,440
CH marching thank you very much indeed

606
00:23:54,679 --> 00:24:00,120
for joining us on the

607
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,679
Sputnik

608
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:03,679
and now it's your turn to tell us what

609
00:24:01,679 --> 00:24:05,880
you think through the portals of social

610
00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:08,200
media what's ratling gri well we

611
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,960
received the tremendous response on the

612
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,520
Act of Killing that we promoted on

613
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,400
Twitter which is good so a lot of people

614
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,440
have seen it and Oliver vuler says this

615
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,760
film is excellent I was in it was in

616
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,120
German TV last year no one is

617
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,640
accountable of course because the

618
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:25,799
killers were on our side like Blair and

619
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:28,799
Bush it's important to emphasize the Act

620
00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:32,000
of Killing is a film like no other it is

621
00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:35,480
the cine Chapel of films it is Michel

622
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:38,440
Angelo Joshua Oppenheimer is a genius he

623
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:42,039
has captured in a movie a story of such

624
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:45,440
epic proportions and bizarre and

625
00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:47,960
perverse character he's captured this in

626
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:50,159
a movie if there's anybody out there who

627
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,840
has not yet seen the Act of Killing I

628
00:24:50,159 --> 00:24:55,720
beg them to see it I tweeted at the time

629
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,559
as you'll recall I'm rarely speechless

630
00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,440
but after watching this film you were in

631
00:24:57,559 --> 00:25:02,960
tear am literally speechless as well as

632
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,399
you say with tears running down our face

633
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,279
well it's needless to say that it was of

634
00:25:04,399 --> 00:25:08,200
course not allowed it was bent Indonesia

635
00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:10,440
so it was you know underground it was

636
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,520
shown underground but obviously only to

637
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,399
targeted people the mass audience the

638
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,919
mass the public Indonesia they just

639
00:25:15,399 --> 00:25:18,480
don't know about it it's been completely

640
00:25:16,919 --> 00:25:20,679
kept the M of the public everywhere

641
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,520
don't and that's why Jack Tipple says an

642
00:25:20,679 --> 00:25:25,360
anti- pki film was shown every year on

643
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,120
national TV in Indonesia until very

644
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:29,200
recently P being the Indonesian

645
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:31,720
Communist Party and that's the problem

646
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,960
that's the norm in Indonesia which is

647
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,080
obviously very

648
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,559
saddening and that's all that we've got

649
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,399
for this week which means alas that's

650
00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:41,840
the end of the show you can stay in

651
00:25:39,399 --> 00:25:43,919
touch with us on Twitter rtor Sputnik

652
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,520
and on Facebook Sputnik on Russia today

653
00:25:43,919 --> 00:25:49,520
it's goodby from me and from me George

654
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,520
Galloway it's been

655
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,240
marvelous

656
00:26:02,279 --> 00:26:05,279
oh