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okay I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gri for

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as long as the Palestinian struggle has

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existed another gift to the World by

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collapsing British colonialism has

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blighted the subcontinent in Kashmir and

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moreover far more people have perish

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violently there as a result two nuclear

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Powers India and Pakistan confront each

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other across a line of control both with

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fingers firmly on the button remarkably

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however not a lot of people know that

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thus the insult added to the injury

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suffered by the people of occupied

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Kashmir is that nobody much cares one

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who does is my old friend writer and

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broadcaster Victoria scoffield author of

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now the fourth edition of Kashmir in

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conflict and I'm glad to say she joins

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us now Victoria let's start with that

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point

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how is it that when you write a book

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about Kashmir people probably think

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you're writing about scarves well

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initially they did but you can be

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assured I put them right very quickly

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and I think what for me is tragic about

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the uh dispute over the former princely

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State as it was of jamu and Kashmir is

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that in fact my book is in its fourth

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edition when I first wrote a book in the

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early 9s I thought this would be a book

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and that the issue would eventually be

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resolved but uh it hasn't been and

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that's why I've been continually

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updating the book 60 years uh the

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biggest occupation force in the world

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today is in occupied Kashmir jamu and

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Kashmir 500,000 Indian soldiers two

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nuclear armed Powers uh just a a a short

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ballistic flight apart uh and a a

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NeverEnding uh conflict how come the

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world has allowed that well the

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difficulty As We Know any conflict as it

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takes the grieved parties to sit down at

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the negotiating table and work out a

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resolution themselves and this

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unfortunately hasn't happened what you

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really need is a dialogue between India

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Pakistan and also the inhabitants of the

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state of J and Kashmir and one of the

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confusing and complex issues about

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Kashmir is that even now I use the word

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jamu and Kashmir but it is actually

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comprised of different regions and those

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inhabitants have have different

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aspirations not only in the Indian

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administered side as we call it you have

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jamu uh jamu region which is

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predominantly Hindu you've got the

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valley of Kashmir where the main focus

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of disaffection arises but you've got

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the vast area of ladak these are

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Buddhists living there so it's it's

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their aspirations also have to be taken

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into consideration across the line of

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control you've got what are now called

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gilgit baltistan formerly the Northern

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areas these people are very different

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ethnically from the inhabitants of the

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valley and then you've got the narrow

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strip of land as a Jammu and Kashmir

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again with sudans and punches who don't

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actually um have the kashmiri language

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so it's a complex issue and it needs all

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the inhabitants to be allowed to sit

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down at the negotiating table but so far

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this hasn't happened well the world of

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course uh called for that in the United

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Nation Security Council and moreover the

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then great Indian Premier Mr

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uh promised to abide by that uh

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resolution which called for a plebiscite

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yes to self-d determinate uh the the

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future of the territory the British I'm

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right in saying Amai were behind this as

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so much uh upon withdrawing from

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occupied India they allowed these

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princely states to decide uh whether

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they went with India or with

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Pakistan uh and the Maharaja of this

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particular territory against the wishes

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of the majority of his people but by

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Fiat joined India well that that was

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really I mean I think just going back a

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little bit one of the biggest tragedies

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in counterfactual history is never very

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satisfactory but nonetheless sometimes

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it's interesting to look at it is had

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the British insisted that the Maharaja

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take a decision

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before uh British Authority ceased we

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might not have seen the the problems

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we've had which have existed to the to

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the present day and the fact that he

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didn't take a decision he wouldn't take

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a decision initially then you had a

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situation of Warfare on both sides and

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then he hurridly took a decision um

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which and it was the then um Vice Roy

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governor general Lord mountbatten who

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suggested that the issue should actually

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be resolved by a plebis referendum or

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reference to the people both uh rulers

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of India and Pakistan agreed to hold a

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plebis it but then the fact that the

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plebis was never held has left this

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unfinished business unfinished feeling

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amongst some inhabitants that actually

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their future hasn't been resolved

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through a as I said plebis or through

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the Democratic process of course the

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Indian government say well they've had

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elections therefore that's tantamount to

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having had a pisit but somehow you still

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have this festering idea that we were

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promised our right of self-determination

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and we haven't been given it so half a

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million Soldier Indian soldiers as

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George described mentioned could you

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tell us a bit how this what the

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situation is like that well I mean it's

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true it's a it's a very heavily

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fortified State I mean a lot of the

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soldiers actually are up on the On the

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Border in the ladak area and I've

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traveled through these regions as well

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um but what's very visible is a military

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presence when you go to Serena um the

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capital city of the valley of Kashmir

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also what's visible is the Indian

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military presence outside of Serena

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Serena in many respects is not as

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heavily fortified as the outlying areas

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um for obvious reasons because a lot of

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well not a lot of foreigners but some

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foreigners and the journalists come

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there uh but the the fact remains for

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the number of um militants the number of

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uh people who took up arms against the

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Indian government per capita there are

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an enormous number I mean however the

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statistics work out they're enormous

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number of of soldiers and with the

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soldiers obviously comes um acting with

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impunity and this is what if you go to

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the valley of Kashmir is very difficult

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whereas I might go as a British citizen

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I might stop at a checkpoint show my

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passport but for kashmir's they

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constantly feel that they're under

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scrutiny and then if there's some

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trouble or other there'll be curfew

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they'll be locked down and again it's a

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very difficult sort of life to be

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leading and I always feel you know so

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privileged we in the west we take for

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granted we have a passport we can move

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about we can go to Europe we can go

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wherever we want you know for for an

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inhabitant of of the valley of Kashmir

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they have to apply for a Visa they have

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to wait sometimes they can't um and

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that's why I I earnestly sort of wish

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for the resolution of the issue because

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then people can lead normal lives which

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is what everybody wants to do 100,000

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people have lost their lives which is a

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staggering death toll what used to be

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called a paradise on Earth is pretty

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close to hell isn't it well for for a

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lot of people who live there and I think

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when you mention the statistics of the

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Dead you have to also take into account

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for example a lot of disappeared and

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that means that the wives they don't

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know what's happened to their husbands

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consequently they can't remarry they're

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called half widows and the orphans and

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what hasn't been assessed is the trauma

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especially when I went to Kashmir in

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when I started on the first book in the

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early

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1990s um the the sort of standard

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comment was there's not one single

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family in in the valley of Kashmir who

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hasn't lost a family member and again

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you have to you have to take that into

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account for how people lead their lives

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that said they're also wanting you know

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the same as we do they want to have

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weddings they want to have uh you know

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sort of be able to to visit their

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families they want to be able to have

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the movement and until the issue is

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resolved at a high political level

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you're not going to see that freedom of

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movement well talking of high political

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levels you and I were both privileged to

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be close personal Friends of the late

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Benazir

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BH uh and the 36th anniversary of the

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judicial murder of her father zikar

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alibo prime minister of Pakistan is

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coming up uh murdered of course by a us

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pet General uh zel hak you were actually

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there in Pakistan when this Dreadful

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deed was done and indeed we're both

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going to be at a Memorial function on

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the 4th of April uh on this how does it

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feel now 36 years

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later it's actually extraordinary I mean

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I've grown old with

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with with the issue actually which which

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you know from which stem my interest of

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working on on jamun Kashmir as well um

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in a way it seems like yesterday but

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also since that time a whole life has

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been led by benb and now she's also been

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assassinated and so it's with great

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sadness that I see this this

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family uh who aspired to public duty

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public service and I think what I I

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really feel is how very young zuluka Ali

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buo was at that time we were very young

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um in our 20s and so we sort of thought

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he was senior and he'd been prime

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minister and he'd been president but he

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was 49 when he was arrested he was 51

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when he was executed

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and you feel well what a lot of

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potential was suddenly snuffed out and I

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think what's particularly interesting in

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the present day is how much interest is

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being focused on zulak calibo he was a

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modern man he was a progressive man um

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and how different again with

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counterfactual history the history of

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Pakistan could have been had he survived

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I actually sat through the appeal

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against the death sentence and I don't

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know whether because we've got social

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media now and the internet but whether

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such a thing could happen in the present

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day it's it's very interesting because

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um for people who didn't quite

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understand the complexities of the case

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he

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was um accused of conspiracy to murder

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not murder conspiracy to murder and I

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was recently reading someone's text the

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other day and they said accused of

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murder and I said no you must change

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that conspiracy to murder it's a totally

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different thing there was one man who

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linked him with this this firing at a

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roundabout in

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laor more importantly in a way the

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verdict was split

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43 and yet he was executed despite the

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protests of and despite the protests and

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despite the international pleas for

276
00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:51,839
clemency and it's just extraordinary to

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think that that could happen that that

278
00:11:51,839 --> 00:11:56,120
that he was actually taken out and

279
00:11:53,279 --> 00:11:58,519
executed and it was also tortury and I

280
00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,959
do remember going to be able to see um

281
00:11:58,519 --> 00:12:03,320
Benz shortly just two or 3 days before

282
00:12:00,959 --> 00:12:06,160
the sentence was carried out and I sat

283
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,760
with my my friend from Oxford days and

284
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,200
you know what do you say to someone when

285
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,360
you know their father's about to be

286
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,560
taken out to be executed it's the most

287
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,920
appalling thing and what I think one

288
00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:18,800
also must pay recognition to is how she

289
00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,639
picked herself up oh yeah and didn't

290
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:24,519
ever show

291
00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:26,639
um a sort of a hatred she she moved

292
00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:29,880
forward from it and she managed to she

293
00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:32,519
might have been consumed with Revenge

294
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:35,240
wasn't I look forward to uh being at

295
00:12:32,519 --> 00:12:38,079
that memorial service uh not service but

296
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,800
Memorial uh meeting commemoration with

297
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you Victoria scoffield thanks for

298
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:45,519
joining us on the Sputnik coming up

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after the break I and many others were

300
00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:50,199
well hacked off by the Rupert muruk

301
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:52,839
Empire's telephone habits after the

302
00:12:50,199 --> 00:12:55,920
break Peter Jukes author of Beyond

303
00:12:52,839 --> 00:13:01,079
contempt tells us who did what to whom

304
00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,079
and how they mainly got away with it

305
00:13:01,540 --> 00:13:04,620
[Music]

306
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,399
welcome back to Sputnik I like many

307
00:13:07,199 --> 00:13:11,760
thousands of others had my telephone

308
00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:14,360
routinely hacked by The Grubby

309
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:17,120
practitioners of the low press I was

310
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,920
compensated and have more to

311
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:22,519
come but the industrial scale law

312
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,680
breaking by Mr Murdoch's operation then

313
00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:26,600
by the mirror group has told us much

314
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:28,760
about the collapsing credibility of

315
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,399
British institution it is beyond

316
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,800
contempt what was being done lives and

317
00:13:31,399 --> 00:13:36,399
relationships destroyed paranoia

318
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,440
engendered but in the most expensive

319
00:13:36,399 --> 00:13:40,959
trial in British history in the case of

320
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:44,040
the moch Empire only the minions were

321
00:13:40,959 --> 00:13:47,440
convicted the Despicable Mes at the top

322
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:50,279
were all as pure as the driven slush or

323
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:53,920
wor they joining us is the author of the

324
00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:57,120
book beyond contempt Peter Jukes Peter

325
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:59,680
welcome to the Sputnik let's start with

326
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:02,240
that last point that I made they were

327
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:04,079
all innocent weren't they well there's

328
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,160
the court of public opinion and there's

329
00:14:04,079 --> 00:14:08,040
a criminal trial the burden of proof for

330
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,399
the criminal trial is be you have to be

331
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,720
absolutely sure that for example Rebecca

332
00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:15,360
Brooks knew about Glenn

333
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,399
malare um now one could argue with a

334
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,440
million pound contract over you know

335
00:14:17,399 --> 00:14:21,160
four or five years she bloody well

336
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,880
should have known about Glenn marqu but

337
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:26,480
reaching that burden of proof to be

338
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:28,480
absolutely sure given 20 email million

339
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,160
emails were missing and no live

340
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,160
Witnesses came forward to testify

341
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,959
against her you can understand that

342
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,959
decision everywhere I go though in the

343
00:14:34,959 --> 00:14:38,759
court public opinion people aren't sure

344
00:14:36,959 --> 00:14:40,720
about that verdict they go even in

345
00:14:38,759 --> 00:14:43,759
chipping Norton where her friends uh

346
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:46,199
live how did she get off now the trial

347
00:14:43,759 --> 00:14:49,800
was the most expensive in British legal

348
00:14:46,199 --> 00:14:52,759
history but the state the prosecution uh

349
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:56,360
spent uh not that very much by

350
00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:59,120
comparison tell us how heavily was the

351
00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,320
prosecution outgunned by Mr Murdock

352
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,720
expensive legal Talent well it's it's an

353
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,720
interesting moment when I discovered

354
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,079
this too because it tells you a lot

355
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,079
about the British press but I'll get to

356
00:15:05,079 --> 00:15:08,720
that so towards the end of the trial

357
00:15:07,079 --> 00:15:11,240
you're sitting around like in a sort of

358
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,800
I don't know airport in the 1970s

359
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,279
waiting for verdicts and we went through

360
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:18,639
the costs and the amazing thing was that

361
00:15:15,279 --> 00:15:22,600
I discovered one uh defense Barrister QC

362
00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:25,720
was being paid about ,000 an hour the

363
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:29,480
defense the prosecution Barrister Andrew

364
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:31,920
Edis was paid 1,000 a day Junior is pro

365
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:34,199
AR the same so you realize by Factor cuz

366
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:37,279
there are six defense teams and one

367
00:15:34,199 --> 00:15:38,920
prosecution team back 12 to one outspent

368
00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:40,440
in the court itself but then you've got

369
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,560
a obviously you got to throw in the

370
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,360
costs of the peace investigation

371
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:47,199
operation wheating um which was into the

372
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,120
phone hacking and a bit of Elvin into

373
00:15:47,199 --> 00:15:52,680
corrupt payments so it works out about

374
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:55,240
2025 million spent by the state

375
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,959
including everything police course

376
00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,079
defense the court costs only about one

377
00:15:56,959 --> 00:16:03,120
or two million whereas news AAL play

378
00:16:00,079 --> 00:16:06,040
spent well now news UK about 80 million

379
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,759
I mean how many £80 million Rebecca

380
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,399
Brooks when she you know is found not

381
00:16:07,759 --> 00:16:11,880
guilty you can claim your cost back from

382
00:16:09,399 --> 00:16:14,800
the state technically she came forward

383
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:18,880
with a motion for 25 million just for

384
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:20,319
herself now as the judge said well if

385
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,040
you're going to claim that we might have

386
00:16:20,319 --> 00:16:23,759
to a disclosure about how much the

387
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,680
company knew and corporate issues like

388
00:16:23,759 --> 00:16:27,680
that and they didn't go for it backed

389
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,480
off they backed off but that just on the

390
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,600
Press thing so I discovered this were

391
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,040
during you know uh the two or three

392
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,560
weeks waiting for a verdict with all

393
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,000
these great journalists individually the

394
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,279
journalists covering Court were

395
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,319
fantastic but the editorial line their

396
00:16:38,279 --> 00:16:43,040
papers took was on the day of the

397
00:16:41,319 --> 00:16:45,720
verdict against Coulson or the morning

398
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,519
afterwards they said 100 million pounds

399
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,800
for one guilty verdict what a waste of

400
00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:51,720
the money they did not say how who spent

401
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,920
the 100 million and that of that there

402
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,319
was one guilty verdict that day of the

403
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,920
11 people indicted for phone hacking

404
00:16:56,319 --> 00:17:01,399
nine have pleaded or been found guilty

405
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:05,480
but both the mirror s the mirror the

406
00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:08,000
times the telegraph the mail and uh the

407
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:10,280
sun went to the same line three big

408
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,079
newspaper groups exactly the same line

409
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,720
about 100 million for one this is to

410
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:17,839
intimidate the state from embarking upon

411
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:20,480
any further prosecutions and also about

412
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:22,400
press regulation and the power of yes

413
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,280
the the the newspapers have felt they

414
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,480
can run the state and scare police and

415
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,919
scare judges the sun has a campaign

416
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,039
against the CPS now OD that the lot of

417
00:17:28,919 --> 00:17:32,480
Sun trials going on and I'm a great

418
00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:34,799
believer in the freedom of the press and

419
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,679
the balance of powers but when this

420
00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:38,200
newspapers which are corporations think

421
00:17:36,679 --> 00:17:40,440
they're more powerful than the state and

422
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,160
the police that is woring cuz you can't

423
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:45,559
vote them out now in your fantastic book

424
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:48,160
uh Beyond contempt which was crowdfunded

425
00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:51,200
tell us a bit uh about that but you

426
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:53,480
describe it as not just uh Court

427
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,440
Reporting though Nick Davis the man who

428
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,760
led the way on this story describes it

429
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,480
on the sleeve as brilliant Court

430
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,000
Reporting which which considering you

431
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,880
were never a court reporter is quite a

432
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:08,200
compliment uh but you describe or your

433
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,440
Publishers do as a kind of walk through

434
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,240
culture in Britain in the 21st century

435
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,159
what do they mean by that well I mean

436
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,200
this is uh what they say evolution is a

437
00:18:14,159 --> 00:18:17,760
series of successful accidents I didn't

438
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,679
mean it to be this way but I'm a

439
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,440
dramatist just Happ to be at the right

440
00:18:19,679 --> 00:18:24,240
place at the right time so that I

441
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,480
started tweeting everybody followed me

442
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:29,360
you know all the news um feeds all the

443
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,159
police some what said everybody is

444
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,240
watching my feed on Parliament all the

445
00:18:31,159 --> 00:18:34,919
lawyers and the defendants while in

446
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,640
court you're in court saying something

447
00:18:34,919 --> 00:18:39,280
they're watching your Twitter feed so in

448
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,440
that way maybe my dramatic heart found a

449
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,520
very interesting moment in British

450
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,000
culture which tells you a lot about you

451
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,360
know the relative powers of the state of

452
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,679
the culture of the press uh of the

453
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:51,520
police and I'd never been to full trial

454
00:18:49,679 --> 00:18:54,039
I'd popped in and out I've seen a lot of

455
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,159
TV dramas it's nothing like TV dramas

456
00:18:54,039 --> 00:18:58,840
most of the interesting stuff happens

457
00:18:56,159 --> 00:19:01,799
pre-trial or you know away from the jury

458
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,400
amazing process and you know uh in a way

459
00:19:01,799 --> 00:19:04,600
lucky just to find myself in the storm

460
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,039
of this you eye of this particular

461
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,400
hurricane and what about the

462
00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:10,159
crowdfounding part the book yeah well

463
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,799
that that's that's what happened was I

464
00:19:10,159 --> 00:19:13,720
started I went I worked for The Daily

465
00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:15,919
Beast I done a previous book about the

466
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,000
phone hacking Scandal of Murdoch's the

467
00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:19,760
Murdoch family's 100y year history

468
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,120
called Fall of the House of Murdoch and

469
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,440
I went there just to really update the

470
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:25,640
book started live tweeting as things

471
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,880
happened and the affair came out and my

472
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,200
Twitter feed went like that and I said

473
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,240
sorry guys they Beast couldn't pay me a

474
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,400
retainer I I can't come here after the

475
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,000
opening after 4 days of the opening and

476
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,440
people said you got to stay I said well

477
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,480
I can't afford it somebody sent me and I

478
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:43,400
didn't know you could do this £10

479
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,159
through my email address on on uh PayPal

480
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,919
and so I was persuaded them next morning

481
00:19:45,159 --> 00:19:49,799
to offer to crowdfund it they

482
00:19:46,919 --> 00:19:51,600
crowdfunded it in a in a few hours and I

483
00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:54,360
came back now the thing about that so

484
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:57,159
you raised the money to cover the entire

485
00:19:54,360 --> 00:20:00,000
trial through crowdfunding that's unique

486
00:19:57,159 --> 00:20:01,760
uh yeah I think for a yes for court like

487
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,159
that and also I think the thing that

488
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:07,360
really interested people was that I was

489
00:20:05,159 --> 00:20:09,559
it was about the media and I wasn't in

490
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:11,280
anybody's pocket I was in their pocket

491
00:20:09,559 --> 00:20:13,760
so you know either side I wasn't working

492
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:16,080
the news UK the telegraph or the BBC or

493
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,600
the guardian all could be seen to have

494
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,480
agendas they ow my employer the other

495
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,840
thing is people paid sometimes quite a

496
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,480
large amount of money total amount

497
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:27,240
raised I mean this is gross about 20

498
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:30,600
grand uh for me to provide it free to

499
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,120
other people now the the point I made at

500
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,640
the beginning about the collapsing

501
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:36,720
credibility of British institutions is

502
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,360
you've been talking about the media the

503
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:43,520
courts and the police just in this short

504
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:47,400
interview in the last week the police in

505
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:50,840
the form of duckenfield yeah the man who

506
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:54,559
admitted that his negligence led to the

507
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:57,559
deaths of 96 people at hillsbor even

508
00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:59,360
though they' spent the last 20 odd years

509
00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:02,799
denying it and seeking to blame the

510
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:06,400
victims the police's credibility shot

511
00:21:02,799 --> 00:21:08,559
through four judges were

512
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,520
sacked because they were found to have

513
00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:11,919
been looking at pornography on their

514
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,440
Court

515
00:21:11,919 --> 00:21:17,919
computers and the media well what is

516
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:20,760
there to say about it in its credibility

517
00:21:17,919 --> 00:21:22,640
uh that hasn't already been said one

518
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:26,120
after another British

519
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:28,240
institutions are reduced somehow in the

520
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:30,559
Public's mind aren't they I mean I mean

521
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,279
I'm I'm an optimist and I suppose the

522
00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:34,480
dark light sha by a lot of this

523
00:21:33,279 --> 00:21:37,000
particularly at the heart of this the

524
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,360
Daniel Morgan murder the dark arts begin

525
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,360
it's a long story and this private

526
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:43,120
investigator who is murdered associated

527
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:46,279
with news the world associated with

528
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:47,440
police corruption uh it has shocked me I

529
00:21:46,279 --> 00:21:50,080
do think interesting you mentioned

530
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:54,039
Hillsboro uh one could mention the savil

531
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:56,279
uh case as well it's the power of media

532
00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:58,279
over some institutions like the police

533
00:21:56,279 --> 00:21:59,919
now obviously there's always been police

534
00:21:58,279 --> 00:22:02,400
corrup we know the met you know

535
00:21:59,919 --> 00:22:04,480
operation countrymen why do things take

536
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,000
so long to come out the sun had a big

537
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,640
place to think you know place in the

538
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,640
lies about the Hillsboro victims and I

539
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,559
think most police corruption cases take

540
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,200
about 15 years to come out the Daniel

541
00:22:13,559 --> 00:22:17,559
Morgan murder panel inquiry like

542
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,600
hillsbor reporting in a year year and a

543
00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:22,000
half it's taking 30 years to come out

544
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:25,120
why because there's a combination what I

545
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:28,600
think Gordon Brown said a criminal media

546
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:30,159
Nexus has existed between the power of

547
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,919
the press and the media to make him

548
00:22:30,159 --> 00:22:34,880
break politicians and make him break um

549
00:22:32,919 --> 00:22:36,360
policemen really interesting news of the

550
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,840
world hacking I've looked at the pattern

551
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:41,120
of it a lot of Home secretaries we had

552
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,200
blanid and then Clark hacked

553
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:46,000
sequentially you had senior police

554
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,159
officers I'm sure Stevens but hmon Yates

555
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,919
and all these people failed to

556
00:22:47,159 --> 00:22:51,400
investigate phone hacking when it

557
00:22:48,919 --> 00:22:54,279
happened why because they saw that

558
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,039
Rebecca Brooks Andy cson or other you

559
00:22:54,279 --> 00:22:58,520
know senior journalists were close to

560
00:22:56,039 --> 00:23:00,960
the Home Secretary your police officer

561
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,880
you're answering to them and I think you

562
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,080
it's not the when corruption happens it

563
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,000
penetrates certain veins comes certain

564
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,360
ways it's not quite good enough to say

565
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,080
it's there you you got to find out how

566
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:13,480
it happened and I think that's pretty

567
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:17,080
unique in Britain that it comes from the

568
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:19,720
media the antidote of course is uh the

569
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:22,039
new media that we have we're no longer

570
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,880
dependent on Rupert Murdoch or the still

571
00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:27,840
less on the mirror Group which is hardly

572
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:30,240
worth the paper it's written on uh all

573
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,960
these newspapers ERS are losing money

574
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,279
losing readers and losing credibility

575
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,279
amongst those who are still reading them

576
00:23:35,279 --> 00:23:40,200
they're doomed aren't they the last

577
00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:43,480
editor of the sun will one day be

578
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,000
strangled by the last edition of the sun

579
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,640
um I'm not sure about how quite I think

580
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,159
you're talking metaphorically now the

581
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,799
fascinating thing isn't it I mean I

582
00:23:48,159 --> 00:23:53,840
noticed I get attacked a lot on Twitter

583
00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:55,480
by senior journalists in the Sun and

584
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,600
other newspapers I'm going well I'm just

585
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,760
a TW you know I'm just a bloke on

586
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,480
Twitter 15 th000 followers I don't have

587
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,679
2 million readers why do they care about

588
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,799
me they are terrible at social media

589
00:24:03,679 --> 00:24:08,080
they're terrible at dialogue and people

590
00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:10,720
don't understand about uh Free Speech

591
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,799
now with social media di uh free speech

592
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,840
is a dialogue it's not a megaphone where

593
00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:16,279
you press a leave up there as an editor

594
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,799
and all these millions of copies come

595
00:24:16,279 --> 00:24:20,840
out people just accept it Rupert Murdoch

596
00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:23,000
replied to me the other day directly

597
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,080
about the solbergs and it's incredible I

598
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,640
mean unfortunately the organizations

599
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:30,840
which own social media you know internet

600
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:34,840
is pretty monop istic too yeah although

601
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:38,200
we we might find uh alternatives to that

602
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:41,740
watch this space Peter Jes thanks very

603
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,520
much indeed for joining us on the

604
00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:45,640
[Music]

605
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,679
Sputnik and now it's your turn to tell

606
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,880
us what you think through the portals of

607
00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:52,360
social media what's rattling guy well

608
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,520
Sean Cadence says Kashmir one of the

609
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:57,120
great shameful occupations of this or

610
00:24:54,520 --> 00:25:00,039
any time the people are heroes one in

611
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:02,399
all and Rich th says that it would not

612
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:04,480
be remotely surprising if phone hacking

613
00:25:02,399 --> 00:25:06,840
like other such scandals was more

614
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,039
widespread than we'll ever get to know

615
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:13,039
well more and more of it is coming out I

616
00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:15,960
myself will be uh in court uh in the

617
00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:17,880
medium term against the mirror group who

618
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:21,080
it turns out were doing exactly the same

619
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:23,000
to me and many many others as they were

620
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,960
doing at the sun and the news of the

621
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,520
world that's all that we've got time for

622
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:31,520
this week it's been marvelous

623
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,520
oh