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[Music]

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okay three I

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get

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me G Steve

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Norris is a renaissance man a man of the

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world more than 20 years ago he and I

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toured Kosovo when nobody in Britain

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knew whether a kovar was something you

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should eat drink or lick a Liverpool

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contemporary of Paul McCartney he

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enthralled the Soviet era crowd with a

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beautiful piano recital another

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contemporary of his was Edina Curry she

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claimed in her memoirs to have had a

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trist with him rather ungallant Steve

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said he couldn't remember it but that

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was all yesterday and although he made

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it into important ministerial positions

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under prime minister John M's government

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he never got as far as his talents

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should have taken him though he was

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twice the Tory candidate for mayor of

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London and we're always delighted to

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welcome him on board the Sputnik Steve

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thanks for coming in it's been quite a

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battle to get you here because London as

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we record this is in a state of chaos

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the Uber drivers who have been going

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forth and multiplying have tripled their

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fairs for the day uh the tube workers

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are on their biggest strike for 10 years

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a complete solid 100% walkout because

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your mate the mayor uh part-time mayor

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now uh has sought to introduce something

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world changing for them uh 24-hour tubes

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without a whisper of negotiation a it's

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uh it's a bit of it's a bit of a mess

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now London well that certainly is an

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unfortunate position to be and I'm going

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to be as diplomatic as I can because you

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know I BOS has got enough problems

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frankly from what I can tell but you're

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right I mean the it's a great idea to be

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running jubes 24s but you have to

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negotiate but you've got to make sure

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you're taking people with you and I mean

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this is I think you know it's so

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important in the public sector and J

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know I'm going to say something that

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people might be surprised about but when

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I was Minister for transport I actually

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went many times in the of a of a tube

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train I don't know a more awful job and

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it's because it's unbelievable tedium

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interrupted by just short periods of

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immense stress it's not a nice job you

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know I know they get well paid but you

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know it's not a job I think I would want

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to do myself and maybe if people

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understood that a bit better there might

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be a bit more Sympathy for the guys

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themselves one of boris's Ambitions is

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driver loss uh trains of course we talk

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now more or less on the anniversary of

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77

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when if we'd had driverless trains and

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we'd had no staff on the platforms the

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Carnage and the uh mass murder uh could

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have been even worse but we ought to

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just distinguish something um we've had

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driers trains in London for donkeys

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years I mean the the duckland light

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Railway has been running for over 20

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years driverless nobody cares of course

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not of course the technology says you

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don't need a driver but what you do need

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is you do need somebody on the train

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just because you know these are human

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beings going on and off when you're

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running 30 trains an hour that's a train

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every two minutes you know the idea of

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getting people on and off in a civilized

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way making sure that nobody's caught

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with a limb or you know a piece of

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clothing stuck in a door that could

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really you know cause Dreadful harm to

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them all of that sort of thing really

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does need human management you know the

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best difference between London now and

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the Paris Metro which we used to look on

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when I was a minister as as being you

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know the the the real Benchmark the

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difference now is that it feels much

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better to travel on the London under

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ground precisely because we do have

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people on the platform you know there

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are human beings giving you human

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messages sometimes three of them giving

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you different messages at the same time

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but much better that you go on the Paris

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Metro now there are no people present

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you see no one it's much more edgy the

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whole experience particularly for people

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who aren't used to it is frankly much

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less Pleasant so why don't we build on

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what's good you know and building on

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what's good means building on the Good

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Will of the drivers these are not guys

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they're not wreckers they're not

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instinctively record so let's hope this

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is the last day we have chaos like this

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would you stand on WE I'm a big

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supporter of the black cabs yeah uh and

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uh we had their uh union leader on here

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just a few weeks ago where do you stand

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on this Uber business this absolute uh

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letting rip of Market forces yeah

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threatening uh part of our National

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Heritage I love London's black cabs you

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know as far as I'm concerned we're the

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only city major city in the world where

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every black cab is wheelchair accessible

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we can take disabled people it's a

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system where the drivers speak the

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language of the country and know the

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city intimately so if you don't know it

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you can show them a piece of paper that

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an address on they'll get you there

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straight away the meter says you'll get

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charged a fair that's proper and

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sensible nobody's going to be ripping

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you off but I think it's high time that

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tfl transport for London said look do we

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want to keep the black cap I think there

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are so many reasons why we do and if we

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do then what have we got to do to

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integrate technology with a service

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that's the best in the world you know

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there are all sorts of issues around

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that because the real issue in terms of

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uber is not the meter it's safety it's

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personal safety uh where is the where is

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the photograph that tells me that the

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person who arrives is actually the

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person that I thought was going to be

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arriving how do I know that that person

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doesn't have a criminal record for

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example at the moment how do you know

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insurance and how do I know he has

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proper High reward Insurance how do I

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know that his vehicle has a proper mot

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how do I know that you know all of those

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things that I ought to expect and that I

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know I get with a licensed taxi how do I

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know they're all there now if we can get

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that right then I'll be quite

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straightforward with you George I I

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believe that in the end you know no

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particular industry is sacred nobody has

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a right to a living I mean it's uh you

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know blacksmiths weren't terribly keen

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on the pneumatic tire but tfl needs to

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do more that's the point they need to

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take this issue seriously and I don't

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think they are at the moment totally

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failing London is what the acronym uh

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that Springs to mind we meet just after

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the

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budget uh George Osborne whether you

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like his measures or not was a kind of

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political and public relations uh

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flurry uh he certainly established

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himself as The Heir Apparent to David

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Cameron who after all is told us he's

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going to go on for another four years no

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more um but Boris is in there when he

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should be in the mayor's office but he's

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in there he's in the cabinet he's in the

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Parliament and running openly to be the

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next leader what's your evaluation of

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the the claims or is it is it going to

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be Boy George or is it going to be Boris

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well of course I think actually that

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Boris is probably banking on the idea

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that by now we'd be in the middle of an

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election for a new leader of our party

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and patently we're not I had David

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Cameron lost the conservatives would

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have said here is a man who couldn't

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actually conin convincingly beat the

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least popular prime minister in living

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memory and then couldn't beat the least

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apparently competent leader of the

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opposition in living memory that would

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have been pretty damning indictment and

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we conservatives as you know are pretty

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ruthless when it comes to getting

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leaders who fail would have been a night

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of the long nightes no you don't even

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have to be long but as it happens that

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was not what transpired David Cameron

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supervised a clear Victory with a

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majority and therefore the man who would

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have fallen with him him now Rises with

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him and by Common consent what you saw

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yesterday was a bravura performance

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that's the expression I think we see

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most frequently in the press and what I

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thought was interesting about it is that

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he presented it as a great tax cutting

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budget the uh office of budget

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responsibility the independent office of

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budget responsibility has very clearly

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indicated it was actually a tax

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increasing budget but it was a pror

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performance and if anything is said of

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Osborne it is said that he is a man with

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enormous sort of tactical and strategic

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ambition uh I don't know whether he'll

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be the next leader I think you and I

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know politics well enough to know that

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you never predict five years in advance

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what's going to happen but I think uh

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Boris Johnson will now if he's got any

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sense concentrate as much as he can on

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the job that he getting paid for which

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is to be mayor of London and at least

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for the moment can park any other

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Ambitions but how does he afford being

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both the mayor and being an MP and in

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the cabinet I mean don't don't the

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people of London can can not demand for

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him to choose one of the other yeah I

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think they can I mean Ken Livingston of

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course was famously an MP when he got

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elected and uh he he was already an MP

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though when he he was already an MP and

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and um so you know Boris says well I'm

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not doing anything different from Ken

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but I think there is there's a slight

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difference uh my own view is that his

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very clear priority should be London as

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it happens the seat that he now

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represents is in London so he's double

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the interest in being there and I would

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be disappointed if we see too much Boris

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in Parliament I don't want to see him in

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Parliament he's not in the cabinet

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incidentally he's invited to What's

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called the political cabinet meeting

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which is quite separate it's kind of you

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know where do we how do we develop the

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messaging and so on and fine I you know

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it's an hour a week or an hour a

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fortnite the real issue I think is he's

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got to concentrate now on being mayor

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for London that's the job that every

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Londoner wants him to do yeah last

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question uh because I know like me you

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uh have friends across the aisle why why

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we're friends yeah uh you're looking at

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the labor party now choosing its uh

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leader from the runners and Riders who

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do you think's going to get it and why

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I'm afraid

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that I think uh uh I think I think to be

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honest Mrs BS is going to get it I think

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I Cooper will win and I'll tell you why

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because I think at the moment labor is

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not ready to debate the real function of

272
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a left of center socially responsible

273
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opposition to a government which of

274
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course as George Osborne proved

275
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,160
yesterday is all very happy to steal

276
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their clothes it amuse me just uh if I

277
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:43,680
may say so that uh the great uh you know

278
00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,639
sort of punchline of his whole budget

279
00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:47,399
was to actually increase their minimum

280
00:10:45,639 --> 00:10:48,839
wage you know you can call it whatever

281
00:10:47,399 --> 00:10:50,639
you like this was something that

282
00:10:48,839 --> 00:10:52,240
conservatives viscerally opposed for

283
00:10:50,639 --> 00:10:54,480
years when it was suggested this was

284
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intolerable you know interference in the

285
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,000
free market and yet actually it's the

286
00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:02,320
Lynch pin uh of his of his economic Str

287
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stry um I I think the problem that labor

288
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:07,800
has got was is that with the exception

289
00:11:03,959 --> 00:11:10,200
of Jeremy Corbin uh on the left and to

290
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,760
some degree Liz Kendall who is saying

291
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,399
look at the man who won you three

292
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,720
elections and wonder how he did it the

293
00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:18,120
fact is if you don't want to go back to

294
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,120
Blair and you maybe accept that Jeremy

295
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,519
corin's appeal would not necessarily

296
00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:25,480
play universally throughout the country

297
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what are either Andy Burnham or I Cooper

298
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,560
offering that isn't really what I think

299
00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:33,079
Mrs uh Kendall described as you know

300
00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:34,800
miliband light and I'm afraid at the

301
00:11:33,079 --> 00:11:36,480
moment I can't answer that question so I

302
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,279
think they'll go for a Cooper because I

303
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,839
think she's less contentious I think

304
00:11:38,279 --> 00:11:42,279
she's playing a caner game in the

305
00:11:39,839 --> 00:11:43,560
election than Andy Burnham but I'm

306
00:11:42,279 --> 00:11:46,040
afraid I don't think that's the

307
00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:48,639
long-term future for labor I think a

308
00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:51,040
thoughtful serious left of center

309
00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:53,399
constructive opposition that takes the

310
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,800
position that inequality in our society

311
00:11:53,399 --> 00:11:58,959
is still a desperate problem and no

312
00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,560
nowhere less so than in London you know

313
00:11:58,959 --> 00:12:03,200
but comes up with solutions to that

314
00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:04,680
inequality which don't rely on the idea

315
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,160
that you make the poor richer by making

316
00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:08,600
the rich poorer because we know that

317
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,800
doesn't work so come up please please

318
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,920
give me some really creative ways in

319
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,519
which we can make a more equal society

320
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,680
that doesn't in the process stifle

321
00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:18,199
Innovation and Entrepreneurship I think

322
00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:19,600
that's the challenge for labor I don't

323
00:12:18,199 --> 00:12:20,680
think any of the four candidates that

324
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,920
we've got at the moment are really

325
00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:25,880
addressing that I fear that the least

326
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:29,040
worst option will be Mrs Cooper Mrs

327
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:31,399
balls Mrs balls indeed and I think so

328
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,600
leave it there don't you Steve

329
00:12:31,399 --> 00:12:35,440
Norris I really wish you were still in

330
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,519
the front line of politics thanks for

331
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:40,839
joining us coming up next in Europe the

332
00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:43,399
Kaleidoscope has been shaken the pieces

333
00:12:40,839 --> 00:12:45,120
are all in flux where will they land

334
00:12:43,399 --> 00:12:49,160
we'll be talking to the man who knows

335
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,160
best Professor Steve Keen stay

336
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:57,680
tuned welcome back to Sputnik Greek

337
00:12:55,279 --> 00:13:00,120
democracy may have hold the Euro below

338
00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:02,600
the pimol line and the high Priests of

339
00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,760
neoliberal financial Orthodoxy have been

340
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,959
putting the boot in I say Financial

341
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,000
Orthodoxy although these same high

342
00:13:06,959 --> 00:13:10,959
priests think nothing of running off a

343
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:14,079
few hundred billion in quantitative

344
00:13:10,959 --> 00:13:16,440
easing of an afternoon so Orthodoxy but

345
00:13:14,079 --> 00:13:18,560
only when it suits them where will it

346
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,360
all end if Greece is forced out of the

347
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:22,519
Euro will the bankers and their

348
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,680
creditors take a heck of a beating and

349
00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:27,120
if they allowed to stay will there be a

350
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:30,160
new wave of anti-austerity politics that

351
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:32,279
sweeps across Spain point Portugal Italy

352
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,680
and might even reach here nobody knows

353
00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:37,440
better what's likely to happen next than

354
00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:40,399
the high priest of unorthodoxy Professor

355
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:43,560
Steve Keen he joins us now Professor

356
00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:46,199
this is a momentous weekend as far as

357
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:49,240
you can what do you predict for the end

358
00:13:46,199 --> 00:13:51,040
of it I've reading you got to read the

359
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,000
entrails and the tea leaves to work out

360
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,040
what's happening with the way the

361
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,480
European unions behaving over this but

362
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,279
the noises theyve been making this week

363
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,519
seems like there's certainly a

364
00:13:57,279 --> 00:14:01,120
substantial group of them that want to

365
00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:03,360
drive out

366
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,279
why it really comes down to this

367
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,880
worldview they have which which which

368
00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:10,120
called autol liberalism which is like a

369
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,959
a weird combination of a Austrian

370
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,160
attitude about the need for free markets

371
00:14:11,959 --> 00:14:15,920
everywhere and keep the government out

372
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,959
of it with a Germanic touch that says if

373
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,320
we need the we need the law there to

374
00:14:17,959 --> 00:14:21,600
make sure that these things are done

375
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:24,680
properly so you get this incredible

376
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,440
focus upon the legal framework of

377
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,720
Economics where it's a legal framework

378
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,040
for complete free enterprise but in a

379
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,240
essential part of what they believe is

380
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,199
when you sign a contract you must

381
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,720
deliver if that contracts involved

382
00:14:34,199 --> 00:14:38,320
giving away a pound of Flesh you've got

383
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,920
to give away the pound of Flesh and the

384
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,320
contract they think they signed was

385
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,519
austerity in return for of course you

386
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,279
know it's supposed to deliver economic

387
00:14:44,519 --> 00:14:48,399
recovery and my argument is well that

388
00:14:47,279 --> 00:14:50,720
ain't what you delivered guys you

389
00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:51,959
delivered economic depression but they

390
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,240
just simply saying it from their point

391
00:14:51,959 --> 00:14:57,320
of view you signed on for this contract

392
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:59,600
and they were going to beat U Sira down

393
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,320
until they became basically the party

394
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,320
they

395
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,519
replaced isn't that a Triumph of

396
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,199
accountancy over economics if only it

397
00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:08,680
was a Triumph of accountancy because one

398
00:15:07,199 --> 00:15:11,440
little point I try to make is this

399
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:14,480
violates accountancy see if you think

400
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:17,519
about if I if I take 100 bucks out of

401
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:19,120
your pocket you go down 100 I go up 100

402
00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:20,440
now I can't say to you why don't you do

403
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,720
the same thing because I've just done it

404
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,720
to you in Reverse we're on a seesaw and

405
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,920
it's that seesaw nature of financial

406
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:31,160
transactions which is why when Germany

407
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:34,000
says to Greece why can't you be like us

408
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,199
the answer is because you're like you

409
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,959
you if you there's a trade deficit

410
00:15:36,199 --> 00:15:39,560
between if Greece has a trade deficit

411
00:15:37,959 --> 00:15:42,519
with Germany then Germany's got an

412
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,800
identical Trade Surplus okay and what's

413
00:15:42,519 --> 00:15:46,040
going on here is they're telling the

414
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,360
Greeks you've got to grow while the

415
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,240
government's taking money out of your

416
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,319
economy okay and at the same time the

417
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,319
public SE the private sector is taking

418
00:15:52,319 --> 00:15:56,759
money out of the economy by either going

419
00:15:54,319 --> 00:15:58,600
bankrupt or by paying back their debts

420
00:15:56,759 --> 00:15:59,920
or taking it out of the country as well

421
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,160
so you've got two sources that are

422
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:04,360
taking money out of the economy and the

423
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,800
only way left to grow is by the by the

424
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,360
foreign sector by people coming in and

425
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,079
buying Greek Goods or Greek tourism and

426
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,720
the difference between those two is

427
00:16:10,079 --> 00:16:15,160
gigantic about one or 2% of GDP now

428
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:18,800
after the huge depression in wages in

429
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:20,600
Greece until the latest you know the the

430
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,240
impact of the capital control sit in

431
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,519
that was bringing some money but they

432
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,560
were trying to take 3% of GDP out of it

433
00:16:24,519 --> 00:16:28,560
out of the country by the government

434
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,360
running a trade running a a budget

435
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,759
Surplus which means of course to run a

436
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,959
budget surplus you've got to take money

437
00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:35,800
out of the private

438
00:16:32,959 --> 00:16:38,279
sector and the rate of decline of public

439
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,519
private debt was about 10% of GDP so

440
00:16:38,279 --> 00:16:41,560
this just what do you mean you've got a

441
00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:44,000
shrinking supply of money and they say

442
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,120
grow faster and it simply can't happen

443
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,199
so if accountancy ruled we wouldn't be

444
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,240
having this conversation it's it's it's

445
00:16:49,199 --> 00:16:53,920
legality where they've got a distorted

446
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,920
vision of what is legal and this is sign

447
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,199
on a contract that means you've got to

448
00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,120
do what we told you to do we haven't

449
00:16:58,199 --> 00:17:02,120
deled delivered but that's your problem

450
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:06,280
but as gri pointed out in the

451
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:09,000
introduction the if uh if they come out

452
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:11,199
of the Euro if they don't pay the debt

453
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,520
it's the banks of Germany and other

454
00:17:11,199 --> 00:17:14,760
countries like them that are going to

455
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:17,360
take a very cold bath in the case of

456
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:19,959
Germany I think more than 40 billion

457
00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:21,720
yeah and there's a huge I mean people

458
00:17:19,959 --> 00:17:25,199
some people who follow this know that

459
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,959
about 90% or 90 up to 93% of the money

460
00:17:25,199 --> 00:17:28,919
that is so-called going to bail out

461
00:17:26,959 --> 00:17:31,120
Greece is actually so they paid their

462
00:17:28,919 --> 00:17:33,480
debts back to both to their creditors

463
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:36,799
which are actually the troa plus German

464
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:38,440
and French banks on a large scale so

465
00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:40,720
they only see about like they might be

466
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,640
talking about giving them 7 billion well

467
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,240
they don't even see 700 million of that

468
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:48,360
as any actually going into the economy

469
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:50,000
itself so if this get shut down if if if

470
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,440
they get kicked out if they default and

471
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,600
they should if they are kicked out they

472
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,600
should default on the works oh

473
00:17:53,600 --> 00:18:00,000
definitely it they should follow

474
00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:02,120
Argentina's uh move yeah uh uh and uh if

475
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,320
as you predict and I think you're right

476
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:06,360
they are being pushed out of the Euro

477
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,840
though the legality of that even is

478
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:11,000
questionable they should definitely then

479
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:14,159
create their own currency default on all

480
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:17,760
the debts uh turn to Russia and other

481
00:18:14,159 --> 00:18:21,600
bricks countries for such help as can be

482
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:23,679
uh afforded and uh and hope that being

483
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,559
out of the Euro actually begins to

484
00:18:23,679 --> 00:18:26,840
generate some growth there will be the

485
00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:28,400
trouble is and this is the reason they

486
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,600
haven't done it so far is they they know

487
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,720
they're too small an economy they know

488
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,679
they're too fragile and they know that

489
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,120
they have they don't get the tax off the

490
00:18:34,679 --> 00:18:39,159
rich and you also have the re the

491
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:41,360
reality that the the Greek state became

492
00:18:39,159 --> 00:18:42,480
a patronage state for a long time so

493
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:45,320
apparently under the previous

494
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,360
conservative prime minister whatever uh

495
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,400
300,000 new jobs have created in the

496
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:52,159
public service which was all a case of

497
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,120
basically feather beding and you know

498
00:18:52,159 --> 00:18:56,679
buying patronage by providing employment

499
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:58,919
to particular political groups so that

500
00:18:56,679 --> 00:19:00,960
side of things needs drastic reform form

501
00:18:58,919 --> 00:19:02,200
and that's what Sirus is aware of they

502
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,679
know they've got to get that sub threat

503
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,559
out they want to do it of course they

504
00:19:03,679 --> 00:19:09,559
spent the last 6 months in you know

505
00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:11,840
crisis dour caused by the European Union

506
00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:13,600
dribbling out the money each time trying

507
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,480
to push them further and further past

508
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,720
the the red lines they drew in the sand

509
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,600
they've got right back to their very

510
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,400
last Red Line surely the success of

511
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:24,039
Iceland should be a model We should

512
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,360
strive for how realistic is it for a

513
00:19:24,039 --> 00:19:30,679
country like Greece who set in the Euro

514
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:33,080
Zone to succeed in that too um Iceland

515
00:19:30,679 --> 00:19:35,400
has one enormous advantage over Greece

516
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:38,679
and that is got his energy exports it's

517
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:41,320
also a tiny country 300,000 people

518
00:19:38,679 --> 00:19:43,840
booster tourism the energy exports and

519
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:47,360
they're reasonably okay Greece has the

520
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:49,360
problem that it's got a very distorted

521
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:51,440
industrial sector it's it doesn't have

522
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:53,159
anything like the the depth for example

523
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,280
that Ireland has where Ireland managed

524
00:19:53,159 --> 00:19:57,159
to benefit when they put through the

525
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,919
austerity ringer by bio might add one

526
00:19:57,159 --> 00:20:02,200
quarter the degree of of austerity that

527
00:19:58,919 --> 00:20:04,000
was imposed on Greece uh that what that

528
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,600
meant was their costs dropped

529
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,720
sufficiently for the multinationals that

530
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,880
produce there to increase the flow

531
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,120
through of funds through the Irish

532
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:15,120
economy and the the gross GDP went up

533
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:16,799
quite significantly courtesy of those

534
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:19,600
effects which Greece can't take

535
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:21,039
advantage of nor the ones in Iceland so

536
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,559
if it wasn't for that I'm seriously

537
00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:24,080
would have pulled out already no two

538
00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:26,360
ways about it if they weren't if they

539
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,960
had you know even like twice the scale

540
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,760
economy they have they'd be big enough

541
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,720
to say right we'll take the we'll take

542
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,760
the roughy the rocky road so they're

543
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,600
afraid of the transition and they're

544
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,520
afraid of just how viable are they going

545
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,400
to be once they're back in a floating

546
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,880
exchange rate again but I don't think

547
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,679
they're going to have a choice I think

548
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,600
they're really pushing the mouth and you

549
00:20:42,679 --> 00:20:47,120
you're an economist and a brilliant one

550
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:50,440
rather than a politician but how do you

551
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:53,720
evaluate how the Sera leaders have

552
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:55,440
played their hand uh in the crisis well

553
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,080
Yannis jiannis prob won't mind me saying

554
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,520
this now he wrote to me once that

555
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,799
they're trying they were basically Bally

556
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,320
we're we're being subjected to a

557
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:04,880
PCH okay and he said basically the

558
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,200
attitude of the European Union was they

559
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,840
didn't want serza to win so let's get

560
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,480
rid of them right there was it was a

561
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,600
political campaign right from the outset

562
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,880
to break their backs and to either force

563
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,400
them to become like the party they

564
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:19,679
replaced or to drive them out of office

565
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,200
and in that sense the referendum uh was

566
00:21:19,679 --> 00:21:24,120
quite a surprise move they weren't

567
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:27,760
expecting it and there a master stroke

568
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:29,240
really yeah yeah and now of course they

569
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,039
there treating as though it didn't

570
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,880
happen oh and it's it's the

571
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:34,799
anti-democratic we respect the result

572
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,919
but pretend it didn't happen that's the

573
00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:38,919
attitude yeah yeah you did well it's a

574
00:21:36,919 --> 00:21:40,360
Pity he voted the wrong way but apart

575
00:21:38,919 --> 00:21:41,600
from that congratulations on winning now

576
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:45,240
let's go back and do exactly what we're

577
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:48,960
doing last week yeah so the

578
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:52,279
Sera government looks fairly solid now I

579
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,600
mean last week at this time frankly it

580
00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:56,159
wouldn't have been a surprise if they'd

581
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:59,120
been out by Sunday night yeah but now

582
00:21:56,159 --> 00:22:02,559
they look uh strong they look strong I

583
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:04,919
just by the um the conservative media as

584
00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:07,279
well they had really harsh media very

585
00:22:04,919 --> 00:22:10,039
shockingly biased Greek private sector

586
00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:13,120
media and even the state sector didn't

587
00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:15,039
uh didn't actually do their Duty and

588
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:18,480
there's a lot of uh backlash now in

589
00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:21,600
Greece about that uh but they do look uh

590
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,600
fairly solid can they survive even being

591
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,279
pushed out of the Euro they can survive

592
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,799
being pushed out of the Euro I mean

593
00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:28,679
there's a sense of one thing you can

594
00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:30,400
pick up from the Greek reaction to that

595
00:22:28,679 --> 00:22:32,559
election was that there's a sense of

596
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,720
Pride come back because being put

597
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:35,400
through an experience like they've been

598
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,159
through I mean people talk about they

599
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,679
they they're responsible for the

600
00:22:37,159 --> 00:22:39,960
situation they should they should pay

601
00:22:38,679 --> 00:22:42,279
the price I've had this from some of my

602
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,840
conservative friends recently they don't

603
00:22:42,279 --> 00:22:47,360
realize just how long the punishment has

604
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,279
been just how severe and just how to

605
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:51,360
moralize and giving people no sense of a

606
00:22:49,279 --> 00:22:54,000
future to why the suicide rates you know

607
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,799
increased by factor of five or six in

608
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,559
GRE since this whole thing began and

609
00:22:55,799 --> 00:22:59,360
also today's Greeks are not the people

610
00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:02,600
who did this they're not the ones who

611
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:05,919
responsible it was the old rightwing

612
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:08,159
oligarchy in Greece that did this when

613
00:23:05,919 --> 00:23:10,279
most of today's Greeks weren't even born

614
00:23:08,159 --> 00:23:11,760
not quite that bad but nonetheless the

615
00:23:10,279 --> 00:23:14,039
people in always

616
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,720
exaggerating the people the people in

617
00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:20,159
power wanted want to drive the oligarchy

618
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:22,480
out if they were given even six months

619
00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:24,120
Space by the European Union they would

620
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,600
have addressed the tax loopholes they

621
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,279
would have started to address the

622
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,760
feather beding and the public service

623
00:23:27,279 --> 00:23:30,039
they would have changed the pension age

624
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,960
but that's ridiculous for the public

625
00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:34,440
servants but they would not have reduced

626
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,720
the pension level itself and this is

627
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,000
what people don't realize the the

628
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,880
downturn in in Greece has been as bad as

629
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,159
a great depression or worse it's also

630
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,600
matched the conditions of the Great

631
00:23:43,159 --> 00:23:46,240
Depression there are unemployment

632
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,679
benefits to less than 10% of those who

633
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,600
lose their job so 90% of those 25% of

634
00:23:49,679 --> 00:23:53,360
the population that's out of a job don't

635
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,279
have any income what are they relying

636
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:57,120
upon the pensions being paid by their

637
00:23:55,279 --> 00:23:58,320
par to their parents and they're talking

638
00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:00,640
about cutting the pension are back

639
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,440
you're not affecting one old person

640
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,520
you're affecting their and their

641
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,440
descendants because half the young

642
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,159
people are out of a job one quarter of

643
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:11,600
those between 15 and 64 are also out of

644
00:24:09,159 --> 00:24:14,159
a job it's it's forcing poverty on the

645
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,600
country and you're never going to get

646
00:24:14,159 --> 00:24:18,679
any capacity to reform the tax system or

647
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,360
anything else while you're simply trying

648
00:24:18,679 --> 00:24:22,919
to avoid running out of money virtually

649
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:24,679
on a daily basis well we'll see how it

650
00:24:22,919 --> 00:24:27,440
works out this weekend you might have to

651
00:24:24,679 --> 00:24:29,600
come back next week and uh uh evaluate

652
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,490
where we then our Professor Steve Keane

653
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,080
thanks as always

654
00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:35,279
[Music]

655
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,360
welcome and now it's your turn to tell

656
00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:40,799
us what you think through the portals of

657
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:43,159
social media what's rattling gri well

658
00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:46,520
I've asked what about the Tory

659
00:24:43,159 --> 00:24:49,000
leadership Boy George or Boris with this

660
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:52,000
picture of them both in China last year

661
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,120
and Chris stay answers I see Gideon's

662
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,480
glass is half full I've seen more

663
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:59,679
sincerity in the London Zoo reptile

664
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:02,080
house get is of course George osburn's

665
00:24:59,679 --> 00:25:06,080
proper name you see why I changed

666
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:08,679
it okay and about um Greece grexit

667
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:11,720
brexit what will take it to break it

668
00:25:08,679 --> 00:25:14,279
David sugar answers EU as an institution

669
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,919
only serves oligarchs not the peoples of

670
00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:19,840
Europe I don't agree with that uh

671
00:25:16,919 --> 00:25:21,799
there's a lot wrong with the EU but uh

672
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,640
none of it would be made better if the

673
00:25:21,799 --> 00:25:26,279
EU were to disappear the Euro though is

674
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,159
a different question and that's all that

675
00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:30,039
we've got for this week with which alas

676
00:25:28,159 --> 00:25:31,799
means that's the end of the show but you

677
00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:34,880
can stay in touch with us on Twitter at

678
00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:37,360
rtor Sputnik and on Facebook Sputnik on

679
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:41,360
Russia today it's goodbye from me gatri

680
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:41,360
and from me George Galloway it's been

681
00:25:52,090 --> 00:25:57,480
[Music]

682
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,480
marvelous