1
00:00:35,290 --> 00:00:40,340
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

2
00:00:37,820 --> 00:00:42,350
with me George Galloway it's not every

3
00:00:40,340 --> 00:00:45,170
day we have a former president of

4
00:00:42,350 --> 00:00:48,260
Bolivia in London let alone on board the

5
00:00:45,170 --> 00:00:50,570
Sputnik that we do have today is because

6
00:00:48,260 --> 00:00:53,479
the current President Evo Morales has

7
00:00:50,570 --> 00:00:56,059
asked him to take to the road and to

8
00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:58,489
international public opinion to build

9
00:00:56,059 --> 00:01:01,609
support for Bolivia's case in their

10
00:00:58,489 --> 00:01:03,980
ongoing dispute with chili the Chilean

11
00:01:01,609 --> 00:01:06,979
government until recently was involved

12
00:01:03,980 --> 00:01:09,520
in a similar dispute with Argentina well

13
00:01:06,979 --> 00:01:12,410
any case that evo morales wants to raise

14
00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:14,869
certainly one to which I want to listen

15
00:01:12,410 --> 00:01:17,840
and I hope you do too so it's a pleasure

16
00:01:14,869 --> 00:01:20,899
to welcome his Excellency Carlos Mesa

17
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:24,050
former president of Bolivia your

18
00:01:20,899 --> 00:01:27,140
excellency welcome to the Sputnik begin

19
00:01:24,050 --> 00:01:30,530
please by telling us what is the dispute

20
00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:32,750
between bolivia and chile how long has

21
00:01:30,530 --> 00:01:36,680
this dispute been running and how

22
00:01:32,750 --> 00:01:38,570
serious is it gracias por America soon

23
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,759
thank you for your invitation for me it

24
00:01:38,570 --> 00:01:43,340
is a privilege to be here this process

25
00:01:40,759 --> 00:01:45,920
started in eighteen seventy nine till a

26
00:01:43,340 --> 00:01:49,719
NSA on you and I see in that year in

27
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:52,100
Chile invaded Bolivia Lisa in Bastion

28
00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:54,680
unilateral this was due to new gillette

29
00:01:52,100 --> 00:01:58,130
in the lateral aggression that ended up

30
00:01:54,680 --> 00:02:02,390
in a world the Olivia didn't want after

31
00:01:58,130 --> 00:02:07,119
which chili maritimo occupied completely

32
00:02:02,390 --> 00:02:11,060
we see a access of Bolivia 400

33
00:02:07,119 --> 00:02:14,180
kilometers of course 24 years later is

34
00:02:11,060 --> 00:02:16,540
few memos we sign the treaty maybe until

35
00:02:14,180 --> 00:02:20,299
cual and according to this treaty

36
00:02:16,540 --> 00:02:23,739
Bolivia would see the whole all this

37
00:02:20,299 --> 00:02:27,260
lost territory in exchange for a

38
00:02:23,739 --> 00:02:31,579
economical compensation maintain speed

39
00:02:27,260 --> 00:02:35,980
20 years later in 1923 CEO of Aleppo

40
00:02:31,579 --> 00:02:35,980
chili my boss Bolivia because this

41
00:02:41,610 --> 00:02:49,420
that was done many times between 1920

42
00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:52,330
and 1983 seven times compromiso silly

43
00:02:49,420 --> 00:02:54,520
pledge this access until a has not

44
00:02:52,330 --> 00:02:57,070
complied del trabajo de minas ithil

45
00:02:54,520 --> 00:03:00,700
quattro escape olivia and that's why

46
00:02:57,070 --> 00:03:03,370
Bolivia has decided to take Sheila to

47
00:03:00,700 --> 00:03:06,160
international court of justice we have

48
00:03:03,370 --> 00:03:10,450
lodged a complaint against chili liqueur

49
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:13,210
and all we ask asking is that the court

50
00:03:10,450 --> 00:03:15,550
believe estates that Chile has to

51
00:03:13,210 --> 00:03:19,320
negotiate with Bolivia in order to give

52
00:03:15,550 --> 00:03:23,470
them a sovereign access this beauty

53
00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:27,930
comes from previous treaties so you are

54
00:03:23,470 --> 00:03:32,140
landlocked because your neighbor stole

55
00:03:27,930 --> 00:03:34,810
400 kilometers of your you're different

56
00:03:32,140 --> 00:03:37,870
that's not a very neighborly thing to do

57
00:03:34,810 --> 00:03:40,960
one can understand these things in the

58
00:03:37,870 --> 00:03:43,630
19th century but in the 21st century it

59
00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:48,390
doesn't seem much for you to ask for

60
00:03:43,630 --> 00:03:48,390
this historic wrong to be righted

61
00:03:49,709 --> 00:03:57,310
nosotros creemos como esta bien dis as

62
00:03:52,810 --> 00:03:59,800
you have said hecho country we think

63
00:03:57,310 --> 00:04:05,080
that something as horrible as this war

64
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:07,570
ASEAN and occupation really frosted it

65
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:10,900
really is abominable in those days it

66
00:04:07,570 --> 00:04:13,930
was the winner take yo take it all and I

67
00:04:10,900 --> 00:04:17,109
think this can be now repaired in the

68
00:04:13,930 --> 00:04:20,530
21st century all we're asking is a

69
00:04:17,109 --> 00:04:22,570
simple thing when we are lost we're not

70
00:04:20,530 --> 00:04:25,090
asking them for the 400 kilometers of

71
00:04:22,570 --> 00:04:28,110
coast we are simply asking for a

72
00:04:25,090 --> 00:04:31,660
reasonable sovereign access to the coast

73
00:04:28,110 --> 00:04:36,070
acceptable to Chile and acceptable to us

74
00:04:31,660 --> 00:04:39,400
and I agree with you that we can in the

75
00:04:36,070 --> 00:04:40,990
21st century we solve this problem this

76
00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,210
long outstanding problem which is

77
00:04:40,990 --> 00:04:46,570
actually going against integration the

78
00:04:43,210 --> 00:04:48,880
continent the people who live there too

79
00:04:46,570 --> 00:04:54,340
they regard themselves as Bolivian or

80
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:58,810
has chili transported people from its

81
00:04:54,340 --> 00:05:01,210
Trey to yours impossible yeah muchos

82
00:04:58,810 --> 00:05:03,880
anos a pasado it's been many years it's

83
00:05:01,210 --> 00:05:08,020
been over a century seen this horrible

84
00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:10,360
thing happened and today the whole of

85
00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:13,419
the population that lives in that

86
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,010
originally bolivian territory is Chilean

87
00:05:13,419 --> 00:05:17,740
and they consider themselves to be

88
00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:21,400
Chilean however we do not learn to

89
00:05:17,740 --> 00:05:23,229
generate any identity problem we do not

90
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,800
want to change people to change

91
00:05:23,229 --> 00:05:31,630
nationalities what wins thing is that we

92
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:35,770
have the right to get some territory una

93
00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:38,710
respuesta so we could get a reasonable

94
00:05:35,770 --> 00:05:42,070
answer from Chile our claim is at the

95
00:05:38,710 --> 00:05:45,220
moment transfer is not for us

96
00:05:42,070 --> 00:05:48,820
territorial transfer and I simply our

97
00:05:45,220 --> 00:05:53,949
claim is a lot simpler we simply use

98
00:05:48,820 --> 00:05:56,260
want is the D a court of justice asks

99
00:05:53,949 --> 00:05:59,410
Chile to negotiate with us and that

100
00:05:56,260 --> 00:06:01,780
after negotiating we come to a common

101
00:05:59,410 --> 00:06:06,100
Accord which is acceptable to most part

102
00:06:01,780 --> 00:06:09,789
yes no olivia is not asking the court to

103
00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:12,880
get a chunk of land all we are asking is

104
00:06:09,789 --> 00:06:15,370
for the court to ask chilly to start

105
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:18,810
negotiating with Bolivia I think it's a

106
00:06:15,370 --> 00:06:22,150
passing basic start for a negotiation

107
00:06:18,810 --> 00:06:25,180
you mentioned the phrase sovereign

108
00:06:22,150 --> 00:06:28,510
access explain please what you mean by

109
00:06:25,180 --> 00:06:34,840
that presumably you do have accessed dog

110
00:06:28,510 --> 00:06:38,620
commercial to the sea by the whim of the

111
00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:42,360
Chilean authorities by sovereign access

112
00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:45,130
do you mean a corridor that you would

113
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:48,070
effectively control and which could not

114
00:06:45,130 --> 00:06:53,380
be blocked to you and could not be

115
00:06:48,070 --> 00:06:55,389
charged for financially la pregunta es

116
00:06:53,380 --> 00:06:58,330
muy pertinent a any fleas a very

117
00:06:55,389 --> 00:07:02,480
important question as part of the treaty

118
00:06:58,330 --> 00:07:05,090
of the 1904 treaty Bolivia

119
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:08,180
the right of free transit through some

120
00:07:05,090 --> 00:07:10,160
Chilean port access su su vida now when

121
00:07:08,180 --> 00:07:12,500
we talk about the sovereign access la

122
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,800
posibilidad de que Bolivia we are

123
00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:21,040
implying the fact that Olivia could

124
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:21,040
control its external trade

125
00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:33,750
you know pallavi exports natural gas if

126
00:07:30,449 --> 00:07:37,520
we wanted to export gas over the oceans

127
00:07:33,750 --> 00:07:40,500
we would need a plan to process it

128
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,780
nowadays we cannot do it without the

129
00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:45,630
authorization of chili and without

130
00:07:42,780 --> 00:07:49,530
asking chili for some land to build this

131
00:07:45,630 --> 00:07:52,889
planet for that we need to comply with

132
00:07:49,530 --> 00:07:54,510
Chilean law so no es lo mismo que si

133
00:07:52,889 --> 00:07:57,000
Willie of course that's not the same as

134
00:07:54,510 --> 00:07:59,580
if we had our own port if we had our

135
00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,790
sovereign access then we would be able

136
00:07:59,580 --> 00:08:05,280
to go forward with a lot of initiatives

137
00:08:02,790 --> 00:08:07,770
like this following our needs and

138
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:10,350
following our strategies that is the

139
00:08:07,770 --> 00:08:12,389
main difference between a free transit

140
00:08:10,350 --> 00:08:15,630
that we have now in a sovereign axis

141
00:08:12,389 --> 00:08:18,600
what level of tension has this dispute

142
00:08:15,630 --> 00:08:22,800
produced in in relations between the two

143
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:24,600
countries kamusta companera no s ass you

144
00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,780
will understand llevar adelante una

145
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,960
relazione fluence not very easy to have

146
00:08:27,780 --> 00:08:35,250
a fluid relationships when we have you

147
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,570
know litigious process preseason we

148
00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:40,770
actually do not have diplomatic

149
00:08:36,570 --> 00:08:42,900
religious relations because Bolivia

150
00:08:40,770 --> 00:08:45,750
considers that until we do not get a

151
00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:48,360
sovereign access we cannot have a friend

152
00:08:45,750 --> 00:08:53,370
relationship with chili however our

153
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:57,990
intention is not antagonistic Leticia

154
00:08:53,370 --> 00:09:00,900
it's because in a way would ping in the

155
00:08:57,990 --> 00:09:03,060
court of justice is just to solve these

156
00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:08,160
issues specifically a living example

157
00:09:03,060 --> 00:09:12,450
some years ago ego Chile and Peru had an

158
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:16,140
issue in The Hague that didn't impinge

159
00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:19,290
on their diplomatic relations however

160
00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:22,350
the Chilean government equivalent has a

161
00:09:19,290 --> 00:09:24,810
very harsh attitude to towards Bolivia

162
00:09:22,350 --> 00:09:27,900
and like that to bolted to Peru because

163
00:09:24,810 --> 00:09:31,260
they also had a an issue with them well

164
00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:34,400
the common denominator here is chili

165
00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:39,329
because I have been a very small part of

166
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:40,140
Chile's dispute with Argentina I'm now

167
00:09:39,329 --> 00:09:42,420
talking to you

168
00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:45,450
chilis dispute with Bolivia and you

169
00:09:42,420 --> 00:09:48,900
rightly draw attention to chilis dispute

170
00:09:45,450 --> 00:09:51,480
with Peru what is it about Chile that

171
00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:54,350
puts them always in the courts and

172
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:57,030
always in antagonism with their

173
00:09:54,350 --> 00:10:00,590
neighbors because this has been the case

174
00:09:57,030 --> 00:10:03,660
under military dictatorship under

175
00:10:00,590 --> 00:10:05,370
democratic governments under democratic

176
00:10:03,660 --> 00:10:07,380
governments of the centre-left and

177
00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:09,600
democratic governments of the center

178
00:10:07,380 --> 00:10:14,040
right so is it something Chilean about

179
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:20,100
this course you're going to stay p50 I

180
00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:23,940
agree with you if we analyze a chili's

181
00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:26,550
international relations they only have

182
00:10:23,940 --> 00:10:28,890
three neighbors and we see that in the

183
00:10:26,550 --> 00:10:31,830
last half a century they have had

184
00:10:28,890 --> 00:10:34,350
problems with Peru with Argentina and

185
00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:36,090
now with Bolivia so yeah we do think

186
00:10:34,350 --> 00:10:40,620
there is something that doesn't quite

187
00:10:36,090 --> 00:10:45,990
work in Chile's stance towards their

188
00:10:40,620 --> 00:10:48,300
neighbors we think less it has an

189
00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:51,720
attitude whereby they don't accept a

190
00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:55,260
dialogue as a solution to comfort in a

191
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:59,790
way they are entrenched in a very proud

192
00:10:55,260 --> 00:11:01,350
position and for us we are not that's

193
00:10:59,790 --> 00:11:04,490
not a problem we just like to say one

194
00:11:01,350 --> 00:11:08,690
thing the Chilean government says that

195
00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:12,720
when Bolivia asks for a sovereign access

196
00:11:08,690 --> 00:11:15,770
there that we are actually putting to

197
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,770
doubt a treaty

198
00:11:17,250 --> 00:11:22,920
so doing they say that we are actually

199
00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:26,490
putting into risk all the other treaties

200
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:30,390
we have always respected the treaty we

201
00:11:26,490 --> 00:11:32,550
are not basing our claim in the 1904

202
00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:35,760
treaty because we know that the

203
00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:40,250
international order is based in border

204
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:44,970
treaties what we are asking is for Chile

205
00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:47,790
to make good on their commitments sins

206
00:11:44,970 --> 00:11:50,460
and so be able to negotiate the

207
00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:53,100
sovereign axis what we have only a

208
00:11:50,460 --> 00:11:57,570
minute left are you confident that you

209
00:11:53,100 --> 00:12:04,050
can win this dispute internationally and

210
00:11:57,570 --> 00:12:06,300
if not what can you do Bolivia not en un

211
00:12:04,050 --> 00:12:09,870
plan B porque stop so he doesn't have a

212
00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:13,080
plan because we are convinced that our

213
00:12:09,870 --> 00:12:16,860
legal arguments are solid that we have a

214
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:20,310
very good peaceful approach and we are

215
00:12:16,860 --> 00:12:23,280
asking the court to ask Chile to

216
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:25,290
negotiate with Bolivia so we can talk

217
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:28,290
about the sovereign axis so we are

218
00:12:25,290 --> 00:12:31,589
optimistic that we are going to get

219
00:12:28,290 --> 00:12:34,680
going along I think the court will

220
00:12:31,589 --> 00:12:37,140
eventually clear itself competent to

221
00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:40,860
decide that Chile hostile negotiate with

222
00:12:37,140 --> 00:12:43,470
Bolivia well good luck in New York at

223
00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:47,700
the United Nations and good luck in your

224
00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:50,370
travels many of our viewers of sputnik

225
00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:52,980
are big admirers of President Evo

226
00:12:50,370 --> 00:12:55,620
Morales please convey to him our very

227
00:12:52,980 --> 00:12:57,870
best fraternal greetings and president

228
00:12:55,620 --> 00:13:00,360
Mesa thanks very much indeed for coming

229
00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:02,880
on board the sputnik coming up after the

230
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:05,839
break gayatri will be back in her normal

231
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:08,610
place and he's top of the Pope's

232
00:13:05,839 --> 00:13:10,770
formerly of the parish of Argentina now

233
00:13:08,610 --> 00:13:12,930
Pope Francis in Rome and he's certainly

234
00:13:10,770 --> 00:13:15,750
making everyone sit up and take notice

235
00:13:12,930 --> 00:13:20,420
we're talking to his representative

236
00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:20,420
father zambini next don't miss it

237
00:13:23,649 --> 00:13:29,299
welcome back to Sputnik with me George

238
00:13:26,419 --> 00:13:31,489
Galloway and me gayathri imagine if the

239
00:13:29,299 --> 00:13:34,099
Pope was one of us to paraphrase Joan

240
00:13:31,489 --> 00:13:36,559
Osborne well we finally got one

241
00:13:34,099 --> 00:13:39,019
eschewing everything from red slippers

242
00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:41,659
to luxury living and once prevailing

243
00:13:39,019 --> 00:13:43,849
conservative orthodoxies the latest to

244
00:13:41,659 --> 00:13:45,619
be felled in the thicket of political

245
00:13:43,849 --> 00:13:48,319
orthodoxies was the Pope's

246
00:13:45,619 --> 00:13:50,959
pronouncements on man-made environmental

247
00:13:48,319 --> 00:13:53,479
degradation which marked him out from

248
00:13:50,959 --> 00:13:55,789
the deniers and puts clear holy water

249
00:13:53,479 --> 00:13:58,309
between the pontiff and the corporate

250
00:13:55,789 --> 00:14:01,489
despoilers joining us now to discuss

251
00:13:58,309 --> 00:14:05,499
this superstar Pope and his recent

252
00:14:01,489 --> 00:14:05,499
homecoming to her his father

253
00:14:08,030 --> 00:14:14,270
from the aforementioned parish of

254
00:14:10,420 --> 00:14:17,480
Argentina father welcome let's start if

255
00:14:14,270 --> 00:14:20,240
we can with the environmental question

256
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,820
which has caused a lot of trouble

257
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:27,260
particularly in the United States where

258
00:14:22,820 --> 00:14:30,260
climate change denial is rife and even

259
00:14:27,260 --> 00:14:32,720
sometimes amongst Catholics and it

260
00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:35,450
certainly put the cat amongst the

261
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:38,870
pigeons you were a part of the working

262
00:14:35,450 --> 00:14:41,720
group that produced the Pope's recent

263
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:45,740
pronouncement tell us please what the

264
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:48,760
Pope's findings were and why you think

265
00:14:45,740 --> 00:14:51,950
they've proved so controversial and

266
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:55,790
thank it as well first I was not part of

267
00:14:51,950 --> 00:14:59,420
the Pope's a advisors just to clarify a

268
00:14:55,790 --> 00:15:02,720
but we were part of as a Catholic agency

269
00:14:59,420 --> 00:15:05,090
here in the UK we were part of spreading

270
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,700
the good news of the pope's encyclical

271
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:09,620
there is a letter written to every

272
00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:12,020
single person in the world not just to

273
00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:15,680
Catholics and the reason is because we

274
00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:17,450
inhabit this land this planet and the

275
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,700
problem of climate change is affecting

276
00:15:17,450 --> 00:15:22,700
everyone the reasoning has caused a

277
00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:26,600
controversy is because the Pope talks

278
00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:28,760
against the ideology of the deniers the

279
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:33,080
ideology of the deniers of climate

280
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:34,940
change deniers is either based on the

281
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:39,740
god of mamoun which is the god of money

282
00:15:34,940 --> 00:15:43,340
and the god of the free market or either

283
00:15:39,740 --> 00:15:45,110
either the god of a political power so

284
00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:47,720
in the in the name of money or in the

285
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:50,900
name of power you just ignored what's

286
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:54,080
happening around the world and why is

287
00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:56,420
that because as a cattle guard as a

288
00:15:54,080 --> 00:16:00,020
Catholic agency working in poor

289
00:15:56,420 --> 00:16:01,910
countries we are witnessing that climate

290
00:16:00,020 --> 00:16:04,940
change is already affecting the very

291
00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:07,310
poor it's not that this will affect the

292
00:16:04,940 --> 00:16:11,300
poor in 20 years x is already happening

293
00:16:07,310 --> 00:16:13,570
a family an entire family in Sierra

294
00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:17,570
Leone which we are working with kapil

295
00:16:13,570 --> 00:16:20,270
pollutes less than any of us here in

296
00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:21,440
london so this is the injustice you see

297
00:16:20,270 --> 00:16:24,500
if climate change

298
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:27,230
I am polluting the world eh but I'm

299
00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:29,300
still benefiting from this model of

300
00:16:27,230 --> 00:16:32,030
development whereas people in Sierra

301
00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:34,220
Leone in Nicaragua in bangladesh in the

302
00:16:32,030 --> 00:16:36,470
philippines they are not contributing to

303
00:16:34,220 --> 00:16:39,260
the climate change problem but they are

304
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:40,850
being affected the most so what the Pope

305
00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:43,820
is raising the question the police not

306
00:16:40,850 --> 00:16:47,750
necessarily as some politicians in the

307
00:16:43,820 --> 00:16:50,870
US said anti-capitalist or runty

308
00:16:47,750 --> 00:16:53,470
anything he's an anti geologist he

309
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:56,150
saying open our eyes for goodness sake

310
00:16:53,470 --> 00:16:58,490
this is a problem not just at the poor

311
00:16:56,150 --> 00:17:01,160
they're being affected the most but it's

312
00:16:58,490 --> 00:17:06,199
a problem that affected all of us that

313
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:11,319
is affecting all of us in the last year

314
00:17:06,199 --> 00:17:14,060
in the UK we had we have a great flood

315
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:16,370
but wasn't the end of the day because we

316
00:17:14,060 --> 00:17:19,970
have resources to cope with effects of

317
00:17:16,370 --> 00:17:21,980
climate change in California as well the

318
00:17:19,970 --> 00:17:24,350
drugs in California terrible but they

319
00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:26,540
have resources to cope but when this is

320
00:17:24,350 --> 00:17:29,180
happening in the south the people they

321
00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:31,640
just starve and die and the Pope is

322
00:17:29,180 --> 00:17:36,200
calling us well let's open our eyes and

323
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:38,480
accept this reality in what we are

324
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:41,110
witnessing is what already scientists or

325
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:44,000
the best science that we have is

326
00:17:41,110 --> 00:17:46,550
accepting the Intergovernmental Panel of

327
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,740
climate change alongside the Pontifical

328
00:17:46,550 --> 00:17:52,250
Academy of Sciences the royal academy of

329
00:17:48,740 --> 00:17:54,820
sciences and the majority of research

330
00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:58,130
universities in the world they have

331
00:17:54,820 --> 00:18:03,650
agreed that this problem is not just

332
00:17:58,130 --> 00:18:06,890
caused by natural by natural causes if

333
00:18:03,650 --> 00:18:08,780
it is caused by a human beings

334
00:18:06,890 --> 00:18:12,200
activities particularly the

335
00:18:08,780 --> 00:18:17,120
industrialization in the West so this is

336
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:18,980
why the ones who are in whose best

337
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:21,370
interest will be affected if we work

338
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:25,160
against I might change our racing

339
00:18:21,370 --> 00:18:28,460
welders against the Pope is the Jesuses

340
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:31,160
vicar on earth and this is the

341
00:18:28,460 --> 00:18:32,610
equivalent of Jesus going into the

342
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:37,040
temple and kicking

343
00:18:32,610 --> 00:18:40,230
over the money lenders tables isn't it

344
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:42,900
the Pope has a duty to stand up for

345
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:47,549
justice and the situation you described

346
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:49,620
is the antithesis of justice whether you

347
00:18:47,549 --> 00:18:54,059
want to call it anti-capitalism I prefer

348
00:18:49,620 --> 00:18:56,370
to you might not it's certainly a clear

349
00:18:54,059 --> 00:18:59,100
signal from the church that people come

350
00:18:56,370 --> 00:19:02,280
first people come before money people

351
00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:05,520
come before power now this brings me to

352
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:08,429
a wider discussion on the this

353
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,919
phenomenon this incredible Pope the top

354
00:19:08,429 --> 00:19:14,150
of the Pope's as I put who has

355
00:19:10,919 --> 00:19:17,730
re-energized a church that looked to be

356
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:20,429
on its backside frankly with scandal

357
00:19:17,730 --> 00:19:24,090
after scandal and a leadership that

358
00:19:20,429 --> 00:19:26,250
didn't seem to rise to the challenges is

359
00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:29,910
it because he's Argentinian I ask you as

360
00:19:26,250 --> 00:19:34,500
a fellow Argentinian or what is it that

361
00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:36,990
special about Francis and yes what is

362
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:41,010
specialist he has him that he said a

363
00:19:36,990 --> 00:19:45,270
person that is listening and learning

364
00:19:41,010 --> 00:19:47,510
all the time and but because he's a

365
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:51,929
member of the hierarchy of the church

366
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:54,990
that is pretty much outstanding that a

367
00:19:51,929 --> 00:19:57,600
leader any political leader economic

368
00:19:54,990 --> 00:20:00,870
leader or church leader is in in an

369
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,880
ongoing process of learning and we

370
00:20:00,870 --> 00:20:05,669
believe that we learn from what God

371
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,290
tells us through the Holy Spirit through

372
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:10,080
the people particularly through the poor

373
00:20:07,290 --> 00:20:12,480
and this is what's special I remember he

374
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,120
once gave us a talk when I was a

375
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,559
seminarian and he said you're you please

376
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:19,440
you will never be poor because you will

377
00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:22,490
always have shelter you Lessa food you

378
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,840
will always have work so you have to try

379
00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:27,720
just

380
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,760
it's of the poor every single day and I

381
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,929
think the Pope was talking well then

382
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,789
what's the card enough when I said that

383
00:20:30,929 --> 00:20:34,890
but he was talking to himself this is

384
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:36,570
what he tries to do to see the reality

385
00:20:34,890 --> 00:20:38,669
through the eyes of the poor but that

386
00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:41,130
because that makes a difference you

387
00:20:38,669 --> 00:20:43,169
mentioned economics he's not against

388
00:20:41,130 --> 00:20:46,620
economy but he's against Anna konam an

389
00:20:43,169 --> 00:20:49,799
economic system that doesn't have people

390
00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:52,260
on the center because now he's against a

391
00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:55,230
conception of power that doesn't serve

392
00:20:52,260 --> 00:20:57,179
but wants to control people and that's

393
00:20:55,230 --> 00:21:00,000
why I'm saying he's against ideologist

394
00:20:57,179 --> 00:21:05,820
and what makes it special is that also

395
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:11,549
another thing is that he he does what he

396
00:21:05,820 --> 00:21:15,809
talks so he's he's very compelling and

397
00:21:11,549 --> 00:21:19,529
consistent which is fabulous for a world

398
00:21:15,809 --> 00:21:21,390
leader nowadays and we know that many

399
00:21:19,529 --> 00:21:24,120
world leaders and you know it very well

400
00:21:21,390 --> 00:21:25,820
they have to respond to the interest

401
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:30,000
that put them in a position of power

402
00:21:25,820 --> 00:21:32,909
unfortunately well the Pope I feels free

403
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,279
about that because he has he doesn't

404
00:21:32,909 --> 00:21:38,490
have to respond to any particular power

405
00:21:35,279 --> 00:21:40,770
even within the church so he's free to

406
00:21:38,490 --> 00:21:42,809
try to spread what we say the kingdom of

407
00:21:40,770 --> 00:21:48,330
God or the kingdom of love and justice

408
00:21:42,809 --> 00:21:51,299
in in the world and he spoke freely with

409
00:21:48,330 --> 00:21:52,890
by being consistent also in the way he

410
00:21:51,299 --> 00:21:54,659
leaves for example you know that he just

411
00:21:52,890 --> 00:21:57,510
live in the palace of the particle know

412
00:21:54,659 --> 00:21:59,850
he could but he prefers to live in a

413
00:21:57,510 --> 00:22:05,190
guest house and actually it's very very

414
00:21:59,850 --> 00:22:07,100
simple and small and so he he he loves

415
00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:09,690
to be in touch with the people and to

416
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:11,760
and to talk to the people and to listen

417
00:22:09,690 --> 00:22:14,460
so that's why from time to time he just

418
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,289
has lunch with the employees of a butt

419
00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:17,429
chicken can imagine the faces of the

420
00:22:16,289 --> 00:22:20,220
employees the first time he appeared

421
00:22:17,429 --> 00:22:23,460
with his tray I said are you sitting

422
00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:26,070
here yeah why not I'm the Pope so I

423
00:22:23,460 --> 00:22:27,419
think that makes him very very special

424
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:29,070
it's a person who likes to be close to

425
00:22:27,419 --> 00:22:31,049
the people and who likes to seal the

426
00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:33,480
reality through the eyes of the poor

427
00:22:31,049 --> 00:22:35,070
every day he works hard for that it's

428
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,320
not natural and I think it's not natural

429
00:22:35,070 --> 00:22:38,429
for us and that's why he's calling the

430
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,379
politicians

431
00:22:38,429 --> 00:22:44,159
the UN the politicians all around the

432
00:22:40,379 --> 00:22:46,139
world and economic the leaders to try to

433
00:22:44,159 --> 00:22:48,629
do the same do what you I mean do what

434
00:22:46,139 --> 00:22:50,490
you do in a in a good way trying to

435
00:22:48,629 --> 00:22:55,470
serve people and to serve all not just

436
00:22:50,490 --> 00:22:58,110
not just your own interests since his

437
00:22:55,470 --> 00:23:00,149
papacy he has returned recently returned

438
00:22:58,110 --> 00:23:04,740
to the homeland a home continent rather

439
00:23:00,149 --> 00:23:07,919
how do you revise that tour well the

440
00:23:04,740 --> 00:23:10,769
true to Latin America is quite important

441
00:23:07,919 --> 00:23:13,799
for Francis as a pope and as a person

442
00:23:10,769 --> 00:23:16,080
and for the people there for Francis is

443
00:23:13,799 --> 00:23:21,749
a pope because I think he has recovered

444
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:23,879
this sense of love and contact with

445
00:23:21,749 --> 00:23:25,619
people I think it means to be close to

446
00:23:23,879 --> 00:23:27,659
people and you can see from the photos

447
00:23:25,619 --> 00:23:29,490
and videos how much he loves being in

448
00:23:27,659 --> 00:23:31,619
contact with them particularly with the

449
00:23:29,490 --> 00:23:34,799
ones who are considered a list of

450
00:23:31,619 --> 00:23:37,559
society with indigenous people he was

451
00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:39,720
drinking coca leaf again exactly and in

452
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:42,330
his latest encyclical ever to see he

453
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,919
talks about the importance of indigenous

454
00:23:42,330 --> 00:23:46,259
people how can they contribute to the

455
00:23:43,919 --> 00:23:48,990
world with the wisdom with their

456
00:23:46,259 --> 00:23:52,080
solidarity and with a love for mother

457
00:23:48,990 --> 00:23:54,119
earth in and for the people in Latin

458
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,580
America can you imagine that a pope

459
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:59,659
visit them and Latin American Pope the

460
00:23:56,580 --> 00:24:03,090
first one in history and took not today

461
00:23:59,659 --> 00:24:05,639
hierarchy but talks to them and talks

462
00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:07,320
how important is the participation in

463
00:24:05,639 --> 00:24:08,419
society high importance to work for

464
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,889
justice and for intergenerational

465
00:24:08,419 --> 00:24:14,399
justice how important stored for the

466
00:24:10,889 --> 00:24:17,059
care of our creation and how important

467
00:24:14,399 --> 00:24:20,100
are the Bay contributions to our

468
00:24:17,059 --> 00:24:21,690
globalization that shouldn't be a

469
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:23,759
globalization of indifference but a

470
00:24:21,690 --> 00:24:27,330
globalization of solidarity and proper

471
00:24:23,759 --> 00:24:29,159
wealth and that's why in the the visit

472
00:24:27,330 --> 00:24:32,009
of Latin America is kind of preparing

473
00:24:29,159 --> 00:24:35,510
the Pope's visit to the General Assembly

474
00:24:32,009 --> 00:24:39,650
of the United Nations in next

475
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:41,540
we in September because they're the Pope

476
00:24:39,650 --> 00:24:44,180
will talk up to the representatives or

477
00:24:41,540 --> 00:24:46,550
nations but on behalf yes all the peeps

478
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:48,590
strengthened by god bless His Holiness

479
00:24:46,550 --> 00:24:54,290
the Pope Francis thank you very much

480
00:24:48,590 --> 00:24:55,820
father Santini thank you and now it's

481
00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:57,620
your turn to tell us what you think

482
00:24:55,820 --> 00:25:00,500
through the portals of social media

483
00:24:57,620 --> 00:25:02,960
what's rattling Gayatri we asked what's

484
00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:05,150
so hot about the superstar Pope as he

485
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:08,480
now takes on the fight to the climate

486
00:25:05,150 --> 00:25:10,970
records Sam Thompson answers he's

487
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,680
upsetting a lot of vested interest is it

488
00:25:10,970 --> 00:25:14,960
because he does not think he will be

489
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,170
around long or vice versa on a brighter

490
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,780
note a kilo ali says whatever it is but

491
00:25:18,170 --> 00:25:23,810
Pontifex is by far the coolest handle

492
00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:25,700
name on twitter it is and is definitely

493
00:25:23,810 --> 00:25:27,650
the coolest as well as the hottest of

494
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:30,020
all the Pope's top of the Pope's and

495
00:25:27,650 --> 00:25:31,640
it's all we've got for this day which

496
00:25:30,020 --> 00:25:33,440
Alice means that's the end of the show

497
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,600
you can stay in touch with us on twitter

498
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,150
at RT underscore sputnik or like us on

499
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,950
Facebook sputnik on Russia today it's

500
00:25:38,150 --> 00:25:43,900
goodbye from me Gayathri and from me

501
00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:43,900
George Galloway it's been marvelous