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okay I

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get

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway gatri is still

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away continuing her Research into global

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warming this week the Prime Minister

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announced that he had ordered the

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extrajudicial killing of two Syrian

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based British terrorists it was the

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first ever such act but the PM assured

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us it was perfectly legal even if he

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couldn't show us how it puts Brit in the

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elite company of Israel and the United

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States as the only three countries in

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the world incinerating people by drone

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accompanying his announcement of the

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return of the death penalty but without

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charge or trial Mr Cameron said we'd

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have to join the Syrian war against both

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the Assad regime and the Isis Rebels he

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promised hard military force though

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whether our own or someone else's

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remains unclear for Clarity on such such

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matters it's always best to turn to the

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stop the war Coalition and I'm joined

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Now by one of their National officers

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author and academic Dr Chris nyam Dr

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Chris thanks for joining us am I right

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are we headed into another yet another

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War it looks like there's a serious

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effort now to Garner enough votes in

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Parliament to push through uh a vote to

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to escalate the bombing of Syria of

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course we are already at war in Syria

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really I mean we've got special for is

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on the ground we've been involved in

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these drone attacks and in actual

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military in bombings anyway yes with our

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pilots flying uh under other people's

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roundles unbelievably but now it seems

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that they're going to try and make this

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official um and uh it's incredible

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because one of the things they're doing

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is they're trying to use the refugee

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crisis

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unbelievably as a a kind of rationale

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for more bombing when in fact the vast

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majority of people know and even many

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media commentators make it clear that

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the me the the refugee crisis is a

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product of the the Carnage that the West

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has created in the last um well going

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back 15 years in terms of the attacks in

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the Middle East and Libya and and

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elsewhere so I mean reality is being

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stood on its head in order to justify

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yet another War it's even worse than we

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imagined though because if he had

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announced this week uh that we were

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going to be bombing Isis alone uh that

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would be alarming enough given the

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consequences of it that we've seen so

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plentifully in Iraq and then in Libya uh

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but he actually said that that we're

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going to make war against both sides in

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this war which begins to sound a bit

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complicated and a bit daunting uh after

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all the Syrian regime is supported by

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Russia by Iran by Hezbollah but it has a

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powerful Army that's been fighting now

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for 5 years does the queen really have

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enough soldiers to uh go into that kind

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of War on two fronts seems mad it's

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extraordinary I mean you know a lot of

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MPS said one of the reasons they didn't

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they voted against it last time around

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in 2013 was because there wasn't a plan

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well if there wasn't a plan then there

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really is no idea no strategy whatsoever

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it strikes me this is partly being put

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together for domestic consumption partly

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I think this is a response to the

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potential of Corbin being Jeremy Corbin

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being the leader of the labor party come

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the weekend and I think you know to a

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large extent this is driven by domestic

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considerations and

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also I think we you know Cameron managed

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to put a brave face on it back in 2013

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but I think the fact that Parliament uh

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under pressure from the population

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overturned his effort to start bombing

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Syria uh two years ago caus them

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consternation actually because I don't

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think they like being told by Parliament

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that they can't fight Wars and I think

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to some extent this is Revenge well I I

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I I was there as you know speaking in

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that debate you were uh with our other

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colleagues marshalling the the crowds

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outside it was a considerable victory

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that we uh rightly celebrated but then

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the proposal was that we become isis's

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Air Force that we bomb the regime uh

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effectively assisting Isis into Power

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you you would have thought that such a

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ludicrous uh idea would have put them

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off but no they've come back for more

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and in the last few days it's become

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clear that Russia is deep deepening its

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relations with the Syrian regime

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stepping up military cooperation so we

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begin to see an

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internationalization uh the official

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internationalization of this conflict

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which must be pregnant with very very

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serious consequences potentially no I

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think it's it's potentially catastrophic

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I mean you can already see in this in a

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slight tangent the way in which war is

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spreading through the region with the

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with what is I believe verging on a

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Civil War in in Turkey now which was

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partly a product of the fact that NATO

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because they wanted to draw turkey into

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some sort of anti-isis Alliance were

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prepared to allow turkey to attack the

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Kurds openly and that has un

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understandably created a reaction so

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that now means that you know there's

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there's mobs of people attacking Kurds

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on the streets of uh of Turkish cities

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that's a a conflict that is beginning to

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be militarized so I mean the the

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internationalization of the civil war in

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Syria is absolutely the last thing that

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we need it's the thing that is going to

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potentially spread War across the region

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it's the thing that is going to create

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more chaos more Carnage across the

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Middle East and of course it's the thing

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that is going to cause the most

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bitterness and anger on the ground and

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therefore lead to uh the potential

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spread of jihadism and the spread of

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terrorism the very things we're told

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that this war is being fought against so

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it's completely irrational the spread of

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this fanaticism this adism is of course

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a clear and present danger everywhere

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including here in our uh own country the

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point is that what you do about it

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should make the problem less rather than

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more uh as normal it seems we've chosen

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the very weapon that's likely to

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increase enhance extremism an

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extrajudicial assassination of two

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British citizens perhaps three

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uh on the pretext that they were

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planning a terrorist attack on events

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which had already taken place by the

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time of the

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assassinations uh legal Assurance from

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the attorney that it was perfectly legal

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but which we can't be shown and all

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based on intelligence from the same

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people who brought us the weapons of

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mass destruction Canard this drone

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attack draws us deeper into this Vortex

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doesn't it like so often in these cases

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The Narrative you know what is it a few

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days after the event is beginning to

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unravel I mean as you say we were trying

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to prevent apparently an attack that had

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already happened that makes no sense it

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also makes no sense that these people

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were able to launch an attack in Britain

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from Syria uh we're told that they had

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collaborators why weren't those

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collaborators arrested and why weren't

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they brought in front of a uh a court um

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we're supposed to have due process there

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is no in my as my understanding is there

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is no policy of execution on suspicion

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in this country at the moment and yet

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that is exactly what happened there

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seems to me to be no just at the level

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of the kind of you know the legality of

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this there's there's clearly no

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justification for what happened it seems

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to me that this this incident was all

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part of the attempt to beat the drum of

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War for further attacks on Syria is to

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create this impression that somehow

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Syria is um you know so militarized so

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dangerous that 45 minutes away from

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Attack ex exactly I mean all the

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memories of what happened in Iraq you

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have the Attorney General gave the

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go-ahead for the legal advice for the

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legality of the war back in 2003 in the

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end under Jess we had the security

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services and the intelligence people

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telling us that were these uh weapons of

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mass destruction all that turned out to

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be fabricated and once again it's very

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important I think that people use their

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critical faculties and don't allow

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themselves to be drawn into what is now

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becoming a kind of media hysteria around

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the question of of of of bombing Syria

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that's really in the end of the day what

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I think all this is about and as you say

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so grotesque is it that the sun hater of

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all

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refugees uh and immigrants is using the

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Dreadful image of the little boy drowned

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on the beach as a badge to support their

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campaign for more war and War now uh

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using the victims of war as a recruiting

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s

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for more

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war we're not going to persuade David

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Cameron is there any possibility that

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enough conservative MPS will Rebel and

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break ranks on this and is there a

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possibility that labor will solidly vote

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against war in Syria well I mean I I

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think the narrative and the the argument

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and the rhetoric being put forward is so

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threadbear that I think it is up for

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grabs and I definitely feel at the level

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of public opinion there a big shift I

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mean public opinion in General on these

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interventions is very very good in

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Britain overall but I think just in the

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last couple of weeks there's been first

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of all a massive shift in people's

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attitude to the whole Refugee crisis I

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think people are joining the dots they

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are recognizing that if you look at the

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countries of origin the three or four

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top countries of origins of these

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refugees they're all water on countries

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Syria Afghanistan and some of the

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statistics um Somalia you know these are

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countries that have Iraq that have been

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devastated by by the wars and I think

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people are making those links so it's up

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for grabs and I think uh the point is

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we've got to do just as we did in 2013

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we've got to put maximum pressure on uh

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on the politicians and we've got to

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Lobby them and protest and try and twist

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their arm to make them realize that

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they've got to represent public opinion

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rather than um the prejudices and and

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and and mad policies that are coming um

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from White Hall and from Washington now

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I think this is a very open question the

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obviously the Corbin surge is another

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testimony to the level of concern and

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questioning there is about um the the

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record of recent British foreign policy

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so you know I I very much hope Jeremy

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does get elected on Saturday I guess he

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probably will we've got to use that as a

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way of launching a really massive

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campaign because that won't be the end

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of it they're going to try and undermine

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him they're already trying to twist the

276
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,279
arms of some of the um labor backbenches

277
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,240
to get them on side there's going to be

278
00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:32,399
a big battle of hearts and Minds in the

279
00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,040
next few weeks we've got to be out on

280
00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:35,519
the streets making sure we put maximum

281
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,839
pressure on well the stop the war

282
00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:41,600
Coalition uh of which I'm one claimed

283
00:11:38,839 --> 00:11:43,959
and I think rightly that we helped ease

284
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:48,040
Tony Blair out of the door of the labor

285
00:11:43,959 --> 00:11:49,839
leadership our president Jeremy Corbin

286
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:53,519
by the time of the later editions of

287
00:11:49,839 --> 00:11:55,880
this program today uh hopefully will be

288
00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:59,320
the new leader of the labor party as you

289
00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:01,680
look back now over the last Dozen Years

290
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:04,760
that we've been uh doing this more than

291
00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:07,920
more than a dozen years 14 do you think

292
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:11,079
the stop the war feeling in Britain is

293
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:14,560
here to stay I do I think there has been

294
00:12:11,079 --> 00:12:16,800
a a sea change over the last 15 as you

295
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:19,120
say 14 years and which is partly

296
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,079
obviously a a kind

297
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,560
of sort of like spontaneous response to

298
00:12:22,079 --> 00:12:25,639
the disasters of the war that have been

299
00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:27,199
created in Afghanistan and Iraq but I

300
00:12:25,639 --> 00:12:29,279
also think it's been built on by the

301
00:12:27,199 --> 00:12:30,560
campaigning I think as well that

302
00:12:29,279 --> 00:12:32,600
response that people have had to the

303
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:34,760
refugees in the last couple of weeks is

304
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,519
testimony again to a kind of critical

305
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,000
understanding amongst large numbers of

306
00:12:36,519 --> 00:12:40,160
people in Britain about what foreign

307
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,720
policy does so I think there's lots you

308
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:45,079
know there's lots of Hope um in terms of

309
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,639
people people are really quite engaged

310
00:12:45,079 --> 00:12:48,720
in these in these questions it's been

311
00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:50,240
quite dominant in the in the whole labor

312
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,920
leadership election actually which is

313
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:55,880
interesting it has uh indeed Dr Chris NM

314
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:58,800
thanks for joining us on the Sputnik

315
00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:02,079
after the break it's race and the police

316
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,079
it never goes away you

317
00:13:04,279 --> 00:13:09,959
know welcome back to Sputnik the

318
00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:12,160
question of race and policing is seldom

319
00:13:09,959 --> 00:13:14,959
far from the headlines in Britain and

320
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:18,279
particularly so in London deaths in

321
00:13:14,959 --> 00:13:20,760
custody deaths before custody stop and

322
00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:23,880
search Powers it's not that we are

323
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:26,440
Ferguson Missouri but that we are on the

324
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:29,199
same road Britain's most prominent black

325
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,720
leader is my old comrade Lee Jasper and

326
00:13:29,199 --> 00:13:34,079
he joins us now on the Sputnik to

327
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:36,519
discuss this Lee thanks for coming back

328
00:13:34,079 --> 00:13:40,279
on board let me tell you what happened

329
00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:44,360
to me this week on a national radio show

330
00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:48,120
I asked all the Tory hopefuls for London

331
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:50,759
mayor Zach Goldsmith and the also rans

332
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,560
uh a question my question was my

333
00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:55,399
experience of the police in London has

334
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:58,000
been a good one almost invariably but

335
00:13:55,399 --> 00:14:00,360
then I've got blue eyes a white face and

336
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,560
a white collar the experience of

337
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:06,000
hundreds of thousands maybe millions of

338
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:07,839
other londoners is not the same and if

339
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,160
you're honest enough to acknowledge this

340
00:14:07,839 --> 00:14:12,880
I said to them uh you need to tell us

341
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:15,360
what you're going to do about it every

342
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:18,519
one of them Zack Goldsmith and the

343
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:21,639
others tried to say that things are much

344
00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:23,800
much better now in London than they were

345
00:14:21,639 --> 00:14:26,360
before on the question of race and

346
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,040
policing is that true no it's painly

347
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,399
untrue and it shows that they've not

348
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:34,279
mastered their brief in in seeking to

349
00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:37,560
govern a multicultural city a multifaith

350
00:14:34,279 --> 00:14:39,440
city like London uh increasing race hate

351
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:43,320
crimes particularly Islam attacks on

352
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:46,399
Muslim women up 70% race ha attacks more

353
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,800
generally up incredible uh numbers

354
00:14:46,399 --> 00:14:50,440
number of black police officers in

355
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:53,880
London down from what it was at its peak

356
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:56,040
in 2007 n uh net increase in Black

357
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,480
offices in the Met I'm afraid not it's a

358
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,600
net loss so we're losing those that are

359
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,240
at the 30 year retirement age and we're

360
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,680
not recruiting at the bottom end to

361
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,399
bring them in uh the requirement that

362
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:09,519
you fund your police foundation course

363
00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:11,600
out of your own pocket uh for new

364
00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:13,680
recruits has had an obvious effect on

365
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,480
black and ethnic minority communities

366
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,360
who uh struggle with high unemployment

367
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,600
and high rates of poverty and then you

368
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,639
have the fact that under Boris Johnson's

369
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,720
tenure we've seen the worst

370
00:15:21,639 --> 00:15:26,360
deterioration in relations between black

371
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,240
communities and the police and if you

372
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:31,680
look at public confidence in to hamlets

373
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:34,360
in Brixton in place like Lamberth in

374
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:36,199
hatney in haringay the key symbolic

375
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,399
areas where big black and ethnic

376
00:15:36,199 --> 00:15:40,040
minority communities public trust and

377
00:15:38,399 --> 00:15:42,199
confidence of black and ethnic minority

378
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,519
communities has gone down to its lowest

379
00:15:42,199 --> 00:15:46,399
level so had they taken their time to do

380
00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:48,120
their homework they would have found

381
00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:49,800
that there are more race complaints

382
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,120
against the Met now than any other time

383
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,720
in its history there are a declining

384
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,600
number of black and ethnic minority

385
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,519
officers and that'll get worse as we

386
00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,319
have loss of officers that uh public

387
00:15:58,519 --> 00:16:02,680
confidence and trusting them from those

388
00:16:00,319 --> 00:16:04,639
communities is the worst it's ever been

389
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,079
and that we are no better off now than

390
00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:09,360
we are in the immediate aftermath of

391
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:11,319
Mark Dugen I'm speaking at uh one of uh

392
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:14,319
you're in perpetual motion on these

393
00:16:11,319 --> 00:16:18,360
issues one of your many campaigns is

394
00:16:14,319 --> 00:16:21,399
about a new incident uh which has uh

395
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:24,040
Arisen uh about a shooting in Lambeth

396
00:16:21,399 --> 00:16:27,360
which seems to have begun over a row

397
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:30,720
over renters tell us about that well on

398
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:33,120
the Friday the 21st of August we had a

399
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,639
standoff on a housing estate Tilton

400
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:38,800
Gardens which is in the south of

401
00:16:35,639 --> 00:16:41,519
Lamberth we had a standoff between armed

402
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,800
police and an individual in a flat

403
00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:46,639
subsequently he was shot by the police

404
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,120
after a 9-hour standoff um we've

405
00:16:46,639 --> 00:16:50,880
subsequently learned that this was a

406
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,880
30-year-old black man that he'd been

407
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:56,040
subject to an eviction from his property

408
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,560
and that uh being homeless he'd gone

409
00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:01,399
back to the property uh his neighbors

410
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:04,319
tell does that he's a quiet lad he's not

411
00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:08,000
known to the police as far as we know um

412
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:11,520
he's uh uh their impression was of him

413
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,000
he was as good as gold and very quiet um

414
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:16,079
they tell me that uh he got back into

415
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,760
the property because the Housing

416
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,760
Association Metropolitan Housing

417
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:22,160
Association who owns the estate didn't

418
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,120
change the locks and so it's keyw worked

419
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,160
uh and being homeless as you can imagine

420
00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:27,640
having nowhere to stay he returned to

421
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,559
the property maybe to pick up some

422
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,160
things or whatever

423
00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:33,320
was visited at that time while he was in

424
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,960
the property by a housing officer who'

425
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,160
brought along the police now I don't

426
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,480
understand what police have got to do

427
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:41,760
with civil matters of eviction uh and uh

428
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:44,760
but nevertheless they were brought along

429
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,880
H the police reported that they saw a

430
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,679
weapon we still don't know whether this

431
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,520
weapon was in a kitchen drawer whether

432
00:17:48,679 --> 00:17:53,240
it was a water gun a spud gun or whether

433
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:56,799
he was waving about manically and

434
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:59,840
threatening sh we know nothing and um he

435
00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:02,320
was subsequently shot four times

436
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,880
Mark You by High Caliber Weaponry how

437
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:07,120
this young man well not so young but how

438
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:10,080
this man is still alive is beyond me he

439
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:13,000
was shot four times and the subsequent

440
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:15,000
clampdown by the Metropolitan Police the

441
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,039
independent police Comm compession means

442
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,919
we know virtually nothing about the

443
00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:21,840
circumstances in which a man can

444
00:18:18,919 --> 00:18:25,320
ostensibly be be shot on in his own home

445
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:28,200
over a matter that is trival Trivial uh

446
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,320
H so we're deeply perplexed in in in

447
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,640
Lamberth

448
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,600
um and because Boris Johnson abolished

449
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,240
all police consultative groups after

450
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:39,000
April last year there was a response uh

451
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,880
uh recommendation by Lord scarman post

452
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,640
1981 to maintain Communications

453
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,640
precisely at times like this because

454
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,200
they are now abolished we have no means

455
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,679
of finding out what the detail of what

456
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,559
actually happened is and we're demanding

457
00:18:49,679 --> 00:18:54,760
that they bring that detail forward and

458
00:18:51,559 --> 00:18:57,720
it's the vacuum uh of information which

459
00:18:54,760 --> 00:19:02,679
is then filled by anger

460
00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:04,880
and UL which leads to the kind of

461
00:19:02,679 --> 00:19:07,880
problems that do happen in Ferguson

462
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,799
Missouri uh recently and have happened

463
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:13,120
in our own country in our own City many

464
00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:15,200
times punctuated maybe a decade in

465
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:18,559
between them but it's exactly the kind

466
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:20,200
of flash point that you want to avoid

467
00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:22,320
well it's interesting because post mark

468
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,480
Dugen we were told by the commissioner

469
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,320
that he wanted to be the most

470
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,960
transparent Police Service in the world

471
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,360
and Boris Johnson the Home Secretary and

472
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,760
others said we're going to introduce

473
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:33,039
body cam videos for officers so that we

474
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,120
can film exactly what's happening as a

475
00:19:33,039 --> 00:19:37,520
means of reassuring communities who in

476
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:39,720
the wake of Mark duan's you know bizarre

477
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,760
inquest verdict he didn't have a gun but

478
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,520
he was lawfully killed this nobody still

479
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,520
understands uh that one could uh seek to

480
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,320
reassure communities that officers were

481
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,679
operating at the highest level of

482
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,559
professionalism there were 13 body cam

483
00:19:51,679 --> 00:19:57,039
videos in this particular shooting for

484
00:19:53,559 --> 00:19:59,840
this young man and the uh ipcc and the

485
00:19:57,039 --> 00:20:02,440
Metropolitan Police Service now told us

486
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:05,200
that those videos will be used as

487
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,159
evidence which means they can't possibly

488
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,559
be used for reassuring people about what

489
00:20:07,159 --> 00:20:11,440
actually happened in a timely fashion it

490
00:20:09,559 --> 00:20:13,640
will be some two to three years after

491
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,720
the event when all the legal proceedings

492
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,760
around his case have have come to a

493
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,480
conclusion uh and so even the good

494
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,880
practice that we managed to secure for

495
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,200
them where have officers where body cams

496
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,320
now becomes largely redundant as a means

497
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,960
of reassurance simply because it's now

498
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,840
going to be treated as evidence and we

499
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:35,200
won't be able to see it until the end of

500
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:38,840
any trial we have a a situation which

501
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:41,080
I've heard you Adam bre before on the

502
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,400
issue of stop and search which again

503
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,280
these Tory meril hopefuls were

504
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:49,880
indicating had been fantastically

505
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:53,080
reduced 2/3 reduced uh where first of

506
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:55,159
all black and minority ethnic people are

507
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,120
far more likely to be stopped and

508
00:20:55,159 --> 00:21:01,360
searched if they're found for example

509
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:03,919
with cannabis far more likely to be

510
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:06,840
charged if charged tell us I've heard

511
00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:08,919
you give this set of Statistics which

512
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,960
frankly is mindboggling well stop and

513
00:21:08,919 --> 00:21:12,600
search in London as a whole is going

514
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,960
down but it's going down for white

515
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,320
people it's going up for black people

516
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:20,559
even within the overall figure so that's

517
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,400
your answer to the detail uh but if you

518
00:21:20,559 --> 00:21:24,679
are stopt and search the

519
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,600
disproportionality in terms of charging

520
00:21:24,679 --> 00:21:28,600
black and ethnic minority citizens

521
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,320
citizens you and I are first time

522
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:33,320
offenders so we have no previous record

523
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,960
we steal a loaf of bread I am more

524
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,799
likely to be charged and sent for trial

525
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:41,919
you're more likely to receive a caution

526
00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:44,840
uh talking to and and sent on your way

527
00:21:41,919 --> 00:21:47,880
home and this disproportionality happens

528
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:51,000
around a whole area of criminality but

529
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:53,200
it's most uh acute and and extensive in

530
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,720
the area of drugs so if you get a

531
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,640
firsttime offender and 5 pound bag of

532
00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:01,080
cannabis and I have the same with

533
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:05,000
firsttime offenders I go to court you

534
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:08,320
get a caution if I get caught with A10

535
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:10,480
pound bag of cocaine H and and so do you

536
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:14,159
and we're firsttime offenders I am then

537
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:16,559
70% more likely to be sent to court to

538
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:18,440
face trial than you are you more likely

539
00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:20,200
to be receive a caution and the really

540
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,279
interesting thing about that is the

541
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,679
ministry of Justice statistics on race

542
00:22:22,279 --> 00:22:26,440
and Criminal Justice System says not

543
00:22:24,679 --> 00:22:29,320
only is that disproportionality in

544
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:31,760
charging confirmed but if you're white

545
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:34,080
and you have a antecedence of criminal

546
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,480
activity you're still less likely to go

547
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,840
to court than a black person with no

548
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,120
antecedence or with a lesser antecedence

549
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,480
than you have and these are the

550
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:44,080
government's own figures which I uh look

551
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,200
at with great interest but can only

552
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,240
assume that they're grow woful

553
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,360
underestimates of the reality of what's

554
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,919
going on so we have a War on Drugs that

555
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:54,000
is a war on black and ethnic minority

556
00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:55,880
peoples we have a war on terror that is

557
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,480
exactly the same thing a war on black

558
00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:01,000
and ethnic minority peoples we have dis

559
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,679
proportionate charging of black people

560
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,799
for like for- like crimes in white to my

561
00:23:03,679 --> 00:23:09,200
mind this is almost a sort of if you

562
00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:11,400
like a soft apartheid policing whereas

563
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,080
we're equal citizens in the same city

564
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,960
but God forbid we meet up with the

565
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,559
Metropolitan Police because one of us

566
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,320
will be uh heading for that uh criminal

567
00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:23,120
justice system in pretty short order the

568
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:27,520
and the other will not uh the last

569
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:30,760
question what can be done about this uh

570
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:33,440
the the recruitment of significant

571
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,559
numbers of black and minority ethnic

572
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,360
officers has gone into reverse as you

573
00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:40,000
have pointed out I didn't know that

574
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:44,520
myself last night or I made that point

575
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:46,799
gone into reverse is there a culture

576
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,720
developing because there's such a

577
00:23:46,799 --> 00:23:51,799
perception of racism in the police that

578
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:54,120
black and minority ethnic people don't

579
00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:56,720
want to join the police because their

580
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:58,799
Community might somehow be offended if

581
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,440
they do no two things happen black

582
00:23:58,799 --> 00:24:02,400
people were joining the police force

583
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,159
when Ken Livingston was mayor we made a

584
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,480
determined effort to increase we

585
00:24:04,159 --> 00:24:08,360
increased black and ethnic minority

586
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:11,400
Police recruitment by 100% between 2004

587
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:13,960
and 2007 so we know how to do it we know

588
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,960
what inspires confidence the problem is

589
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,880
is that once the officers were in the

590
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,720
force they were disproportionately

591
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,480
disciplined uh as a consequence so the

592
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,520
example of uh the Firearms officer Carol

593
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,320
Howard who was fitted up by her

594
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,360
colleagues on charges of sexually

595
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:32,720
abusing her own child found to be

596
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:35,360
completely ex innocent of all charges

597
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,679
and exonerated and walked away that is

598
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:40,520
the working culture in which black

599
00:24:37,679 --> 00:24:42,440
officers are enduring and because the

600
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,840
commissioner of police and the met and

601
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,120
the mayor of London Boris Johnson sarly

602
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,640
announced in 2009 that institutionalized

603
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:52,159
racism is no longer a problem for the

604
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,919
police what we've seen is a Resurgence

605
00:24:52,159 --> 00:24:56,440
of the culture of racism within the

606
00:24:53,919 --> 00:24:59,480
workplace the police canteen type

607
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:02,760
culture uh a a stripping away of the

608
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:05,240
mcferson monitoring policy Frameworks uh

609
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,840
that made sure that where that continued

610
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,360
to be a problem one could apply pressure

611
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,200
and because of boris's and the

612
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:13,360
commissioner's lack of commitment to

613
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,480
real anti-racism in placing what we've

614
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:17,919
seen is a resurgent culture of

615
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,760
institutionalized racism make itself

616
00:25:17,919 --> 00:25:21,640
parent in the Met police well we'll have

617
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,520
to see what we can do about all this me

618
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,840
J thank you very much for joining us on

619
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,840
the

620
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,880
Sputnik alas we've run out of time and

621
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:36,860
that's the end of the show God willing

622
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:45,229
I'll be back again next week it's been

623
00:25:36,860 --> 00:25:45,229
[Music]

624
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:53,360
marvelous