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[Music]

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I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gatri

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blood is running down the cobbles of the

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Via doosa in ancient Jerusalem a

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nightmare of violence over the last

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month has overcome occupied Palestine in

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place of the normal levels of attrition

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of targeted killings and near starvation

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being suffered under illegal Israeli

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annexation occupation and Siege after

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almost half a century of occupation

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during which the world has achieved

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precisely nothing in bringing it to an

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end the Palestinians appear to have

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risen up to try and Shake It Off in

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other words the third inata appears to

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have broken out and thousands will be

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outside the Israeli Embassy in London

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today in solidarity with the occupied

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people our first guest has Peerless

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knowledge and experience in reporting on

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this struggle he's a former foreign

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editor of the guardian and now the

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editor of the highly respected Middle

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East eye David Hurst he joins us now

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David thanks for coming on board the

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Sputnik first of all is it an intifa who

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has the power to declare it so or is it

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just that if it looks like a duck walks

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like a duck and quacks like a duck it's

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probably a duck well with interfers as

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you know from the first in second inter

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fathers you can only really tell after

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they've broken out and sometimes quite a

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long time after they've broken out but I

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think yes this is an interf it's an

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inter because not because of the number

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of deaths necessarily because there were

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many more there were hundreds more in

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the first two days of the second IND

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father but because there's now a real

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change of attitude it comes after the

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death of the two-state solution it comes

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after the death of any form of peace

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process the peace process was actually a

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settler process it wasn't a peace

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process and now you've got these

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incursions on Al and the alaxa compound

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and people are saying enough we've just

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had enough and this is coming from the

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people it's coming from the streets it's

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not coming from the leadership and

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that's another important factor um this

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isn't being controlled it is becoming

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despite the Palestinian leadership and

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despite divisions between Hamas and fata

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the first and second intifadas had

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semiofficial in the first case actual

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official sanction from from the

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Palestinian leadership then president

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Arafat uh what's the attitude of the

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current Palestinian leadership to the

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events we're all watching at least if we

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watch

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RT well um there a good Latin expression

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for for what abas is doing it festin

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lente which means hurrying

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slowly um he has speaking speaking in

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some very fine words to the un uh

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assembly uh about uh about nonviolent

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protest about resistance what he's

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actually doing on the ground is uh in

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many cases actually helping uh the

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occupation by by uh by his security

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preventative forces which are stopping

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the demonstrations uh from going towards

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uh the lines of Israeli troops and he's

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still arresting people and uh and and

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there is still torture in jail well

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perhaps come back to where all this

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leaves him as we both know his term has

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long

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expired uh I think three quarters you

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reported it I think three quarters or

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more of the Palestinians want them to

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step down uh but does that seem to

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suggest that this is a generational

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shift that the the youth that are on the

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streets are in fact the leaders of this

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intifada well they themselves say um

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we've had enough of your words

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and uh we're going to take things into

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our own uh uh hands now that doesn't

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mean um and they're making individual

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decisions to pick up a dagger and and

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and and and and and to attack um now

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that doesn't mean uh that they haven't

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thought about it and that doesn't mean

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that there isn't real passion behind it

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um but it does mean that uh it these are

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individual decisions that are being

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taken and at some point there's going to

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be a real challenge to the Palestinian

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leadership as to actually what they do

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about it yes sorry but you say the

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individuals but they must organize

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themselves in some way on the street or

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or even online well that's a very good

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point there is um evidence of of of uh

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an online campaign and online

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communication uh but according to all

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the evidence so far uh what's making it

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particularly difficult for uh for for

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the Israelis and for and and certainly

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for their security organizations is that

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most of the people involved in these

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attacks have no known affiliations they

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they don't have criminal records They

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don't appear on any files that's what I

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mean by not being organized well uh I

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I've lived long enough to have known the

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Palestinians when fata was completely

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hegemonic support of about 80% of the

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people the rest being leftists uh of

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various kinds then the emergence of the

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islamist trend which competed with and

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then overtook fata but now we're in a

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situation aren't we where most

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Palestinians are probably not supporters

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of either of those two

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behemoths uh and as you say are probably

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not affiliated with any organization

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thus our lone wolves and thus are very

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difficult to predict in terms of the

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Israeli security response but what they

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do want and I think there was one very

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very telling photograph where there was

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uh where there was a young woman uh in

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in a fear and in genes giving stones to

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a Hamas youth uh with you know with a

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with with with with with a green

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headband uh they were combining forces

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and I think really what they want to do

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on the ground and this could be too

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optimistic of me but I think there's

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quite a lot of evidence for it they want

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a new leadership and they want a

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combined leadership because the other

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thing that fat and Hamas have been doing

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uh particularly uh fata they've been

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stopping a uh a Unity agreement from

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working

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um and I think the message from the

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streets is we need a new leadership and

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we need a unified leadership now

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Netanyahu has his own problems on his

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right he's got people camped outside his

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door saying that unbelievably though it

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sounds he's not being brutal enough in

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the in the

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Crackdown uh will that begin to change

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his attitude to the events uh or uh is

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there a danger in any way to his

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continuing leadership

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well he is a political Survivor and

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however uh rightwing we think he is he

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does actually represent the mainstream

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of uh and that's his has been his 40

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he's he's the Mr centerr and he keeps

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shifting to the right as the centerr

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shifts to the right but he's he's he's

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one there and so he can always turn

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around to the to the Israeli public and

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say if not me who else so he's got that

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hold that being said he's in an

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extremely difficult position at the

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moment because let's let's say for

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instance how how he attacks abas and how

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he attacks uh ramala he desperately

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wants to say yes you're inciting the

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violence it's because of you that these

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kids are going out onto the streets

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you're lying uh on the one side and on

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the other hand he wants to keep the

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Palestinian Authority in place for a

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very good reason because they're

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suppressing descent in the West Bank so

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he's torn between these two completely

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different forces now there's a consensus

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inside this

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studio uh that the two-state solution is

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dead it doesn't exist that consensus

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though everywhere or even in most places

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a very large number of people still

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cling to the possibility of a solution

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uh with a West Bank Gaza and East

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Jerusalem State tell us tell the viewers

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why that is

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dead well it's dead if you walk

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or go or drive between Jerusalem and

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Bethlehem or if you try and go on the

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road from ramala to uh

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northwards um just look around you see

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how the whole landscape has changed

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there are now 600,000 settlers in a land

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in that 22% of Palestine that they were

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talking about 200,000 of them in in in

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East

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Jerusalem uh the atmosphere has changed

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it it is who is there an Israeli leader

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who can uh get all these people back

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does the green line exist most of the

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things that we're talking about are are

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are dead and gone there are there are so

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many facts on the ground 20 years ago in

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the Oslo optimism that's right and and

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they're not there anymore and I don't

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think there is an Israeli leader uh

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capable of of basically dismantling all

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that infrastructure over all the roads

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um the system of water in whichever way

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you try and manage it uh if you just

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look on a map if you just look around

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you if you look at the lights on the

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Hills which are all the lights of

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settlers uh there's no way that that's

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going to go so what happens

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next well um there's going to be uh I

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think a very big conflagration I think

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it I say this with absolutely no Glee uh

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I'm I'm not wishing for anything for any

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death of either any Jew or any

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Arab

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um but unfortunately and

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alas uh the the the situation only

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changes through

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violence uh and and historically that is

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actually what's happened and we are

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going to go through I think a very

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violent period uh it's certainly not uh

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unifying all the Palestinians it's it's

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it's getting a new group of people

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involved in the ACT we haven't talked

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about this but uh previous interfers

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they were mainly carried out from the

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West Bank and from Gaza this interf I

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think the epicenter of it will be East

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Jerusalem but there'll also who are uh

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jerusalemites and as you know they have

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a special ID pass that can be taken away

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from them now but it will also involve

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uh the 48 Palestinians the Palestinians

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of

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1948 um in the northern Villages now the

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longer this goes on uh the more their

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so-called loyalty to to the uh Israeli

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state will be questioned and all sorts

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of really nasty things could happen Livy

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has already talked about this liberman

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has talked about this they've talked

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about the thing called Static transfer

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which is where you um basically say that

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your your village or or your town

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belongs to another country and you're no

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longer part of Israel I they will stri

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be stripped of Israeli citizens

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citizenship that that's one proposal um

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and you could have curfew military

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curfews this will be I think quite a

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long struggle um I think what the world

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has got to do is to sit up and say how

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many struggles do you want these people

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to endure how long Israel cannot do this

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00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:19,600
Israel cannot keep on and I think we've

277
00:12:15,199 --> 00:12:22,760
really got to question uh uh the EU

278
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:25,320
Cameron uh Obama all our own leaders and

279
00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,320
say listen mates what what what are you

280
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:30,279
going to do about this what pressure are

281
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:33,000
you applying to to to to Israel how for

282
00:12:30,279 --> 00:12:35,040
instance are we still with this level of

283
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,600
violence still discussing the question

284
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:41,040
of labeling of goods from from from the

285
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:44,120
occupied territories I mean it's obscene

286
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:47,000
well lots of trouble ahead uh that's for

287
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:49,279
sure and if we're depending on David

288
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,720
Cameron for a solution I fear there will

289
00:12:49,279 --> 00:12:54,440
not be one David Hurst thanks for coming

290
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:56,800
on the Sputnik coming up after this

291
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:59,560
break a guest close to my own heart a

292
00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:02,519
survivor of the fascistic US organ ized

293
00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:06,600
Massacre of millions 50 years ago in my

294
00:13:02,519 --> 00:13:06,600
own country of Indonesia don't miss

295
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:15,720
it welcome back to Sputnik 50 years ago

296
00:13:12,639 --> 00:13:17,959
exactly a US organized military coup led

297
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:20,079
by fascist generals overthrew the

298
00:13:17,959 --> 00:13:22,839
elected government sounds familiar

299
00:13:20,079 --> 00:13:24,760
doesn't it in Indonesia they imprisoned

300
00:13:22,839 --> 00:13:26,880
the president sukarno and hundreds of

301
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,920
thousands of others and then massacred

302
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,839
perhaps 3 Millions more so carno's crime

303
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,519
was to be the leader of an oil Rich

304
00:13:31,839 --> 00:13:37,000
nation which didn't tow the US line in

305
00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:40,199
world affairs and sought instead

306
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:42,079
non-alignment Independence and equality

307
00:13:40,199 --> 00:13:44,800
the murdered were described as

308
00:13:42,079 --> 00:13:47,160
Communists though most of them were not

309
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,760
and the Indonesian Communist Party once

310
00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:52,720
the third largest after the Soviet Union

311
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:55,680
and China was physically exterminated

312
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:58,320
and remains illegal to this day carel

313
00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:00,079
budo came from a Jewish anti-fascist

314
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,320
Family in London who married an

315
00:14:00,079 --> 00:14:04,120
Indonesian Man became an Indonesian

316
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,160
Citizen and then worked at the

317
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,639
Indonesian foreign office under sucaro

318
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,120
her husband was imprisoned by the

319
00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:13,639
generals and so was she for three years

320
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:16,000
long after which her citizenship was

321
00:14:13,639 --> 00:14:18,880
withdrawn and she was deported back to

322
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,360
the UK for 50 years now she's been

323
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:26,079
campaigning for justice in Indonesia and

324
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:30,399
the region and she joins us now Carmel

325
00:14:26,079 --> 00:14:32,519
tell us what happened in September 1965

326
00:14:30,399 --> 00:14:35,079
in

327
00:14:32,519 --> 00:14:38,160
Indonesia at the end of September in

328
00:14:35,079 --> 00:14:41,399
fact later almost into

329
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:45,120
October there was an

330
00:14:41,399 --> 00:14:46,199
incident uh when a group of generals

331
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,240
were

332
00:14:46,199 --> 00:14:53,079
killed uh when I woke up that morning I

333
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:56,279
should say I was living in a very quiet

334
00:14:53,079 --> 00:14:58,720
residential area of Jakarta but when I

335
00:14:56,279 --> 00:15:01,040
woke up that morning there were tanks

336
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,639
going up and down the street and it was

337
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,440
very frightening I thought oh well

338
00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:07,680
something has happened here I didn't

339
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,959
understand I put on the radio and it was

340
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:14,160
not it was not beaming the usual program

341
00:15:10,959 --> 00:15:17,360
it it was had been obviously taken over

342
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:20,079
by somebody else the Army then

343
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:23,120
declared that this killing these

344
00:15:20,079 --> 00:15:26,399
killings were perpetrated by the

345
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:29,920
Indonesian Communist Party the

346
00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:32,600
pki there was no proof no

347
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,839
idence what actually what actually

348
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,199
happened there has never been

349
00:15:33,839 --> 00:15:38,600
investigated exactly who was responsible

350
00:15:36,199 --> 00:15:42,639
for these killings and as a result of

351
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:44,759
that they began a huge Crackdown on

352
00:15:42,639 --> 00:15:49,920
anybody who had any relationship with

353
00:15:44,759 --> 00:15:51,680
the pki the PK the pki at that time was

354
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,560
was about had had something like I don't

355
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:57,040
know three three million members and

356
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,560
many mass organizations supporting so

357
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,360
you could say it was a movement of about

358
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,519
15 million people in the country of

359
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,279
course of that time were about 180

360
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:09,839
million

361
00:16:05,279 --> 00:16:11,079
people so the Crackdown came and I

362
00:16:09,839 --> 00:16:13,199
happened to be a member of an

363
00:16:11,079 --> 00:16:15,000
organization that was seen as being part

364
00:16:13,199 --> 00:16:17,079
of this group of

365
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,680
organizations of course I knew nothing

366
00:16:17,079 --> 00:16:21,360
about what had happened except that it

367
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:24,839
did happened I didn't know why or what

368
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:28,480
was it all about um we were all declared

369
00:16:24,839 --> 00:16:30,959
to be involved everybody was involved I

370
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,880
was involed involved TBA the Indonesian

371
00:16:30,959 --> 00:16:34,440
word is

372
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:38,399
TBA as if I was involved I don't know

373
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:40,800
involved in what what did I do so um

374
00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:43,519
almost immediately my husband was

375
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:47,040
arrested and he was put into the

376
00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:50,399
prison Sal by prison and I started

377
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:52,199
trying to visit him there um but we were

378
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:53,880
not allowed actually to meet him it was

379
00:16:52,199 --> 00:16:55,920
a very difficult situation there were a

380
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,079
lot of women outside the prison and a

381
00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:01,360
lot of men inside but we were not

382
00:16:58,079 --> 00:17:02,639
allowed to to to meet our husbands and

383
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:07,880
so

384
00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:10,039
on and then a little later on in it my

385
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,079
husband was released and then rearrested

386
00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:15,199
then released was kind of in and out and

387
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:17,360
I was always trying to get him released

388
00:17:15,199 --> 00:17:20,520
um but then eventually in

389
00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:24,360
1968 that's 3 years after that another

390
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:26,559
incident happened in Central Java and

391
00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:30,000
the uh somebody came to the house and

392
00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:33,200
started interrogating me and I didn't

393
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:35,320
know what it was about um so he said

394
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,840
well I think you have to come along come

395
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,960
along with me I said what is it is it

396
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,240
just for overnight or should I take some

397
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,320
clothing or whatever no he said never

398
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:47,640
mind it won't be long so they pushed me

399
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,880
into a my husband was actually at that

400
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,799
time he was in the house he just be one

401
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:55,240
of the releases he been a releas he was

402
00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:57,400
in the house and of course my my

403
00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,880
daughter was my daughter was saying

404
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:03,320
Daddy why didn't you go away they don't

405
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,880
know about you but he in fact he came

406
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,760
out so when they took me and they put me

407
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:12,840
into the truck he also came into the

408
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:16,520
truck they drove us to a a building uh

409
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:21,640
in the outskirts of Jakarta

410
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:25,799
and when I got to this building they um

411
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:28,159
they put me into a room a room maybe

412
00:18:25,799 --> 00:18:30,320
about as big as this not very big and

413
00:18:28,159 --> 00:18:32,400
there were eight women no bedding

414
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:35,640
nothing like that and he said get down

415
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:38,440
on the floor get down there so we were I

416
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:41,559
stayed in that room with these women for

417
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:44,760
about I don't know a couple of weeks

418
00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:48,120
lying on like just a tiled floor we had

419
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:51,919
no beding at all very soon after this

420
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:54,080
incident this terrible incident s suano

421
00:18:51,919 --> 00:18:55,960
who was actually still the president he

422
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,840
was deposed by

423
00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:02,360
SAR um he was not actually killed he was

424
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:05,760
deposed by Zar and Zar took over

425
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:09,400
complete power uh it was a

426
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,320
very devastating situation because uh

427
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,559
under

428
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:16,360
too the situation was pretty no

429
00:19:13,559 --> 00:19:18,679
Democratic not EXA completely Democratic

430
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:20,880
but anyhow he was a very charismatic

431
00:19:18,679 --> 00:19:22,880
figure and very very popular but of

432
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,120
course there were problems in his regime

433
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,720
he was a lot of corruption especially

434
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:30,919
with his wife so on it was a lot of

435
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,520
corruption but the human rights

436
00:19:30,919 --> 00:19:35,400
violations were just a few I didn't know

437
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,799
there was very little happening in that

438
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:40,600
way all of this was planned and

439
00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:43,720
coordinated with the United States these

440
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:46,080
were not events that just happened

441
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,480
accidentally they they wanted to

442
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:51,640
overthrow myself I I know the I know the

443
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:54,600
US supported very much what was

444
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,600
happening and they provided for example

445
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,960
they provided lists of people that they

446
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:02,360
thought should be arrested

447
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:05,200
um the extent of the involvement at that

448
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:07,760
point of the US I'm not quite sure I

449
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,799
think it certainly was supporting the

450
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:13,280
the the Takeover and very happy to get

451
00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:16,559
rid of suano because suano uh had come

452
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,799
out very strongly against what is it

453
00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:21,039
imperialism and the west and so on so

454
00:20:18,799 --> 00:20:24,159
they really wanted to get rid of

455
00:20:21,039 --> 00:20:26,039
Zano now we I've used the figure three

456
00:20:24,159 --> 00:20:29,360
million killed is that an accurate

457
00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:32,799
figure I don't know how many I mean it's

458
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:35,000
some people say 500,000 somebody people

459
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:37,039
say more than a million the exact figure

460
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,200
of course will never be known because so

461
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:43,039
many V small villages and so on which

462
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:46,080
were said to be under the in favor of

463
00:20:43,039 --> 00:20:49,720
the pki many of these Villages were

464
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:52,360
completely uprooted and destroyed and so

465
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,600
to get any idea of the exact number of

466
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:57,159
people who were killed is impossible

467
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,520
because it was just a huge Massacre you

468
00:20:57,159 --> 00:21:02,440
were the only British woman in prison

469
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:05,240
there I no at that point I I thought I

470
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,720
was an Indonesian citizen because I was

471
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,039
married to an

472
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,279
Indonesian that turns out to have not

473
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:16,200
been

474
00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:19,360
true um when after I had been held in in

475
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:23,440
prison uh a lawyer came they was trying

476
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:27,200
to help me to get out and also the women

477
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:29,320
who I shared uh imprisonment with they

478
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,880
also thought if I could get out I would

479
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,960
go abroad and it would be good for them

480
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:37,480
it would help them to to draw attention

481
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:41,640
to what was happening and so I I came

482
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:45,919
back to London um and this where we

483
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:47,640
started organizing a campaign at that

484
00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:49,919
time we we called it the British

485
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:54,240
campaign for the release of Indonesian

486
00:21:49,919 --> 00:21:57,520
political prisoners how did Saro manage

487
00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:00,080
to wipe out the third biggest Communist

488
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,039
Party in the world the military you have

489
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,799
to understand in every village

490
00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:07,640
everywhere in the country they were they

491
00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:10,360
were military they were soldiers so

492
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,559
you if anybody protested they would be

493
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:15,080
killed or put into prison it was but did

494
00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:17,360
the Communists fight back it was very

495
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,360
difficult because the the at at first

496
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:22,120
they tried to go underground and do some

497
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:25,039
activity there in in Central Java there

498
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:27,679
was a certain movement there the

499
00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:29,840
Indonesian Communist party was not

500
00:22:27,679 --> 00:22:31,520
prepared for this

501
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,360
they were thinking that they would if

502
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,640
they tried to get political power it

503
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:39,320
would be by the B by The Ballot Box they

504
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,799
were not they were not interested in the

505
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,080
armed struggle they thought they could

506
00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:46,440
win by Through The Ballot Box do you

507
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,559
think that the IND Indonesian people

508
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:52,640
will ever achieve Justice For The

509
00:22:49,559 --> 00:22:54,720
Suffering of that period until recently

510
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,400
it was very uh very dangerous for

511
00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:00,480
anybody to to get up and set up an

512
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,520
organization and this if if it was for

513
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,840
example me they knew that had some

514
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,720
connection with the pki and they would

515
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,679
be they would ban this organization or

516
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,960
make it very difficult there were for

517
00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:16,159
example there was an an occasion I

518
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:18,919
remember when um a lot of women had been

519
00:23:16,159 --> 00:23:20,640
told that their husbands had been uh

520
00:23:18,919 --> 00:23:24,200
killed in a certain area and they were

521
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:26,679
buried there and so the women came along

522
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,360
and they wanted to exume them and take

523
00:23:26,679 --> 00:23:32,080
them and give them a decent burial

524
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:34,200
uh which is what what every family would

525
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:37,760
want to do but they were attacked by a

526
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:39,240
whole group of Muslim po uh a big Muslim

527
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,960
group and they had to of course they had

528
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:44,400
to end this operation they couldn't

529
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:48,760
continue it last question did you see

530
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:51,960
the film The Act of Killing yes was it a

531
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,760
proper depiction of what happened yes of

532
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:57,400
course

533
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:59,200
the The Act of Killing was showing the

534
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,000
The Men Who did who actually did The

535
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:05,080
Killing and in fact quite happy that

536
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,880
they had done this so it was you felt my

537
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:10,279
goodness what kind of people are they

538
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:14,120
there was such an ingrained

539
00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:16,320
hatred um for anybody who was said to be

540
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:17,320
Alle alleged to be in any way connected

541
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,600
with the

542
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:22,000
pki they could just be bumped off they

543
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:26,919
were not ordinary people they were in

544
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:29,200
inhuman and they could be killed and

545
00:24:26,919 --> 00:24:32,200
what you like so the ACT killing you get

546
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,200
that feeling this fellow he didn't

547
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,880
didn't think he was committing a crime

548
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,039
we he was doing something good for the

549
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:42,679
country to get rid of these nasty

550
00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:44,799
people carel it's been an honor it's

551
00:24:42,679 --> 00:24:48,399
been an honor to meet you thank you very

552
00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:48,399
much for joining us on the

553
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,559
Sputnik and now it's your turn to tell

554
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,960
us what you think through the portals of

555
00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:59,200
social media what's ratling G on the

556
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,720
topic of Palestine Raymond de says a

557
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:04,480
Trail of Tears thrust on defenseless

558
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:07,120
Palestinians by murderous Zionist with

559
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:10,080
the US Cavalry blankets and on the

560
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:13,760
subject of the massacre of 1965 in

561
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:16,559
Indonesia takes responds with a very

562
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:19,320
very powerful picture uh with the

563
00:25:16,559 --> 00:25:21,760
pretext the US and Britain overthrow of

564
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,480
democracy in Indonesia it is uh

565
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,159
unbelievable the number of people who

566
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,679
were murdered but even more unbelievable

567
00:25:26,159 --> 00:25:30,799
that nobody knows anything about it and

568
00:25:28,679 --> 00:25:32,480
that's all you've got time for this week

569
00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:34,120
which alas means that's the end of the

570
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,799
show you can stay in touch with us on

571
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:39,000
Twitter at rtor Sputnik or Facebook

572
00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:41,760
Sputnik on Russia today it's goodbye

573
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:45,159
from me GTI and from me George Galloway

574
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,159
it's been marvelous