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okay I get

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[Music]

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gatri one

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of the greatest of all Irish men Oscar

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wild responded to the charge that he was

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in the gutter with the famous repost we

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are all in the gutter but some of us are

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looking up at the stars Our Guest on the

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Sputnik today could never be accused of

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being in the gutter but he has joined

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the firmament of trailblazing Pioneers

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who have been prepared to sacrifice to

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move everyone else forward like Oscar

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wild

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himself Senator David Norris joined the

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Senate when Ireland was a more

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conservative country than it is now the

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church was yet to begin its spectacular

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Fall From Grace and an openly gay men in

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the corridors of power caused many a

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splutter of the arish breakfast as well

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as changing the law which jailed Oscar

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wild and fighting for gay marriage

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equality Senator Norris never forgot

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that the Good Samaritan never passes by

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on the other side of the road however

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far away those suffering are his speech

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in the Irish Senate as Gaza burned in

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the summer of 2014 has to be seen and

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heard to be believed its power and

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eloquence positively Oscar wild alike

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after a buildup like that you'll be glad

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to know he's here on the show on board

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the Sputnik Senator thank you so much

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for uh joining us your a personal hero

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of both of us it's an honor to have you

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here and I I don't often say that and if

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I do I very rarely mean it but I mean it

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today well it's an honor and a pleasure

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to be here with both you and gatri thank

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you so much senator now the uh centinary

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of the uh first blow to the Empire the

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rising of Easter

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1916 and the GPO uh and uh the heroes of

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what became the Irish Republic is almost

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upon us so we thought we'd take an early

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look at that centinary how would you

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summarize the gains the Ireland has made

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through the independent struggle what

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have the 100 Years of Irish Freedom

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actually

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produced well I'm glad that we have an

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independent Parliament and I think that

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Mr deera as tiak or prime minister of

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Ireland was very wise to keep Ireland

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out of the second world war although

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very positively uh engaged toward

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towards Britain uh about the rising I

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have more mixed feelings because so many

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of the people involved were of English

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origin uh people like porri Pierce who

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had an English Protestant father and who

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wrote in extremely racially abusive

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terms in oncl solish I mean I've read a

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lot of the writings of these people I

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admire Connelly uh but the rising itself

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was deeply unpopular in the island of

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that time it was only after the British

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shot the leaders that sympathy turned

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around and if you look at what the

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immediate aftermath of the rising was it

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was a brutal and BR bit bitter Civil War

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uh and the uh division of the island so

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I think there are all kinds of questions

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about it I don't think we should look on

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it uncritically I remember the 50th

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Anniversary uh and it was an exclusively

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Catholic Republican heterosexual white

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affair and if you didn't fit into those

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categories you were out on your ear

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um so like the T offensive in Vietnam it

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was a military failure but a political

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success a strategic success yes it was

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and and the people involved in it there

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were largely School teachers Trade union

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they were dreamers and they dreamed uh

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this thing but if you look at it home

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rule had already been passed it was

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shelled for the first World War uh and

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they attacked uh the state uh when it

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was in very difficult circumstances in

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the uh first world war and people forget

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that one of the ideas was to put a

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branch of the hor Zin family onto the

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Throne of AR I don't think that would

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have been such a wonderful idea so I

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take a rather mixed uh view of it and if

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you look for example at ctis

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marovich um she was a son of of of an

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english-based uh landed

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family um uh uh uh The Other Woman Who

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Yates was so M gone uh she was

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completely English and she first saw

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Ireland from the inside of the Cara camp

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where her father was a a a a colonel in

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the British army so whereas I can

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understand the energy and the resolve

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and the Zeal for Independence and

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freedom of these people uh I very much

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regret the kind of the racial the

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anti-english aspect of the thing was

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inevitable though with a with an

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overbearing near neighbor occupying you

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seeking to obliterate your culture your

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language uh and to entirely dominate

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your economic and strategic uh future

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and as you rightly say if the British

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had not responded to the Easter rising

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in the brutal bloody way that they did I

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myself was brought up with a tearful

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grandfather telling me how they tied

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James Connelly to a chair and to execute

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him uh and they gave him medical

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attention so' be well enough

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to but I feel more sympathy with the

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young people many of them Irish many of

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them 16 years old who are shot at dawn

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because they were shell shocked and in

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their shell shocked condition they had

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neglected to take their cap off in the

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presence of an officer that to my mind

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was the real blasphemy but the first

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world war in my opinion was a huge

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mistake yes inde if I'd been around I

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would have fought for uh France ysph

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because well I'd have fought for all of

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them to uh to turn their guns on their

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officer class and March to their own

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capitals and overthrow their ruling

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classes but as the Russian people did

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but that's another uh another matter A

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Century of Independence though uh how

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different is Ireland today to what it

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would have been had it remained under

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British

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rule well I think we probably would have

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still been to a certain extent

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subservient it it it's a matter of

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debate as to how much Freedom we'd have

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got under the home rule Bill uh because

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the British Parliament were concerned at

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looking after the interests of the ster

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unionists and so on so forth um I think

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we would have been fairly independent

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and have developed uh Dominion status

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rather like Canada and so on but have

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kept the crown and I have to say the

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royal family are very popular uh in IR

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the Queen's visit was a huge Marc took

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tea with her majesty in bakam Palace

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wearing a white tie and absolutely and

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of course the queen uh is a lot more

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Irish than some of the revolutionaries

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because she's a descendant direct

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descendant three times over of Brian Buu

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one of the last High Kings of Ireland

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who defeated the Danes at kanta in 1014

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and once she's a director sener of Hugh

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O'Neal the rebel Earl of Tyrone my

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goodness I didn't know that I didn't

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expect to you see we're all so mixed up

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we're two small islands and there's been

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constant interchange since really

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prehistoric ties between the people so

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that's why I deprecate any kind of

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racially based tension I think it is a

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real pity the same as I feel it with uh

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religion I think it's such a shame that

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two Christian denomination should be so

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antagonistic towards each other

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historically speaking now Connelly

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predicted that partition would lead to a

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carnival of reaction in the north and it

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did on both Sur did and we saw it

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actually this week with the unionist uh

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last ditch stand against gay rights for

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example yes ay supported the background

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by the Roman Catholic hierarchy which I

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thought was rather an irony of these two

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forces coming together but on the other

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hand um something near uh 70% of people

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in Northern Ireland said in a survey

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released last night that um uh they

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would not be troubled by a close member

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of their family uh engaging in a samesex

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marriage now that's rather interesting

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and the assembly passed a resolution

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about gay marriage uh for the first time

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uh in Belfast and that was scuppered by

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the introduction of a particular device

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by the Democratic unionist party totally

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undemocratic what this tends to suggest

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is that the people north and south are

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no longer uh following the instruction

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uh of the hierarchy on either side of

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that religious device that the

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Democratic unist party of win election

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uh but their reactionary views are not

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supported by any means by all Protestant

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people in the North and the Roman

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Catholic Church as uh gatri said in the

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introduction has had quite a spectacular

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Fall From Grace in Ireland when when I

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used to go to Ireland as a child the

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Catholic church was all powerful

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absolutely all powerful well in fact in

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the 1950s as I remember quite well uh

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cab unfortunately I'm talking about the

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19 well cabinet documents and policy was

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sent for review and for the imperat of

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the Roman Catholic hierarchy and if then

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they said no it just didn't pass that

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has completely gone now and that's a

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very good thing so no Pope hanging in

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the family's living rooms anymore oh I

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think they do yes and um I have to say

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especially this pop he wor listening to

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he is don't you agree Pope Francis I

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think he's I think he's abic I'm an

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Anglican but he is uh so human uh the

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previous two were unspeakably

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arrogant we're on the same page on many

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things now the uh fact of Independence

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meant that you had an independent

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Parliament and means you have a an

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independent Senate something we could do

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with here you're in luckily because the

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Prime Minister tried to abolish it

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really which prime minister uh and Kenny

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the present prime minister oh about two

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years ago and I was in hospital with a

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cancer operation and uh this had started

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off and I'd called a meeting but two of

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my colleagues uh took the issue and

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fought everybody else off and I thought

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well all right as long as they win but

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they weren't winning and I got out of

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the hospital with two weeks to go and I

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said get off the stage other people have

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to get involved in this now and

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professor John Crown Dr sha Barrett and

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myself in 10 days we reversed figures

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and made it a 60/40 victory for the

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Senate now you have been a senator

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almost 30 years what impact did having

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Ireland's first out gay political

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representative political leader what

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impact did that have at the time well I

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wasn't aware of it but apparently the

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paint on the ceiling in the members

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dining room nearly came off with all the

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comments they were making about me and

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they were all saying backs to the wall

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as he goes past they fancy themselves I

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wouldn't look sideways one of them you

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know it's amazing thing about

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heterosexual men of middle Ag and

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corpulence they think every gay person

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is trying to jump

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at but there was some difficulties but I

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00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,120
was treated with Amusement I remember

275
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,480
one day when I just left the Senate one

276
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,720
of my colleagues Willie farell said uh

277
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describe me as a pervert and the next

278
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,320
day they tried to make him apologize and

279
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,480
withdraw and I said oh come on stop

280
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,160
torturing poor Willie I wasn't the

281
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,240
slightest bit insulted you can only be

282
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,000
insulted by somebody for whom you have

283
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,399
respect and willly knows perfect will I

284
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:38,320
have no respect for him at all very

285
00:12:33,399 --> 00:12:38,320
that's the spirit more of this after the

286
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:47,600
break welcome back to Sputnik they say

287
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:49,760
never meet your Heroes gatri and I have

288
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:52,079
as one of our heroes Senator David

289
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:55,320
Norris who's with us today and so far

290
00:12:52,079 --> 00:12:57,519
it's going really well she said earlier

291
00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:01,279
that his famous speech in the Senate as

292
00:12:57,519 --> 00:13:04,120
Gaza burned in the the summer of 2014

293
00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:06,480
has to be seen and heard to be believed

294
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,560
she's right about that here's a clip I'm

295
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,880
not anti-israeli I'm not

296
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:12,760
anti-semitic uh I support the state of

297
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,360
Israel but in the 40 years I've known

298
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,360
the state of Israel and sometimes had a

299
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,360
home there I've seen it completely

300
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:22,920
change it changed from a left-wing

301
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:25,440
socially directed uh country to an

302
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,680
extreme rightwing regime that is

303
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:30,160
behaving in the most criminal fashion

304
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:32,720
and defying the world and using

305
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,720
unscrupulously using the Holocaust to

306
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,240
justify what they're doing and it's time

307
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:40,079
that rag was torn away from them Senator

308
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,760
I know a thing or two about oratory and

309
00:13:40,079 --> 00:13:45,199
that's one of the most wonderful pieces

310
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,560
of oratory I have ever seen in any

311
00:13:45,199 --> 00:13:49,399
Parliament tell us the circumstances

312
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:51,600
that lay behind it well you're you're

313
00:13:49,399 --> 00:13:53,199
very kind uh what happened was that I

314
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,880
wrote to the kahil at the chairman of

315
00:13:53,199 --> 00:13:57,440
the Senate asking for the Senate to be

316
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,839
recalled because I was so horrified by

317
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,480
what was happening in Gaza and to my

318
00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:03,320
amazement they agreed to recall the

319
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,800
senate in the middle of the summer and

320
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:08,480
so it was that on my 70th birthday I

321
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,800
spent the day in the centers just out of

322
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,519
hospital and that's why I'm kind of

323
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,360
leaning up against the back of the I

324
00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:16,120
thought it was just a chilian pose

325
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,800
actually no but it came you could hardly

326
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,440
stand up in fact well it came really

327
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,560
from the heart because I know that part

328
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,720
of the country I've been to Israel I had

329
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:28,079
an apartment in Israel we had

330
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:30,720
Palestinian friends I've been in Gaza uh

331
00:14:28,079 --> 00:14:32,880
I've seen the circumstance which those

332
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:37,399
unfortunate people are forced to live

333
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:40,040
and I have to say uh uh that the

334
00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:43,920
operations of the Israeli government are

335
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:45,839
a blasphemy against the ethos of Judaism

336
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,920
sure and you made that

337
00:14:45,839 --> 00:14:51,519
that's it's so important that there are

338
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:54,800
people like my friend Ezra Nai who's

339
00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:57,920
Jewish and Israeli and for those people

340
00:14:54,800 --> 00:15:00,560
for Israeli Jews to stand up confront

341
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:03,160
and challenge the iniquitous behavior of

342
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:06,000
the government is so powerful indeed

343
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:09,320
they are and uh he and and Professor

344
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:12,079
Elan Pape Professor Norman finlin and so

345
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,079
on such people and their activities

346
00:15:12,079 --> 00:15:16,759
their words are more powerful even than

347
00:15:14,079 --> 00:15:18,600
any that you or I absolutely could uh uh

348
00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:19,519
summon and even they are denounced as

349
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,920
being

350
00:15:19,519 --> 00:15:24,199
anti-semitic ason alth how one could be

351
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:27,079
Jewish and anti-semitic has always been

352
00:15:24,199 --> 00:15:29,600
beyond me but the the the the Senators

353
00:15:27,079 --> 00:15:31,560
around you are sometimes used to happen

354
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,480
to me in the British House of Commons

355
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:36,399
looked a bit shellshocked they looked a

356
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:39,120
bit uh um speechless how did they

357
00:15:36,399 --> 00:15:41,360
respond to your magnificent speech they

358
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:44,000
responded very well and almost all of

359
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,600
them uh took a similar line some a

360
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,759
little bit gentler and you see the thing

361
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:51,160
is many many people in Ireland uh looked

362
00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:53,399
to Israel and supported Israel

363
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:56,560
particularly after the catastrophe of

364
00:15:53,399 --> 00:15:58,560
the Holocaust but it gradually dawned on

365
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,279
people that the Palestinians were being

366
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,000
made to pay for the crime of the

367
00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,560
Europeans with which they had nothing

368
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,440
whatever to do and so I've seen over the

369
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:10,000
last 40 or 50 years a real turn around

370
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,160
in Irish attitudes because we tend to go

371
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:16,800
with the underdog and the Palestinians

372
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:19,079
are so now so clearly uh the underdog uh

373
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,920
and some of the Israelis have said to me

374
00:16:19,079 --> 00:16:23,800
how could you possibly support these

375
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:27,040
people um look at the way they treat gay

376
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:30,480
people uh but that doesn't really catch

377
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:32,880
with me uh at all it is a question of

378
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:35,079
fundamental human rights and you have to

379
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,680
stick with the human rights even of

380
00:16:35,079 --> 00:16:40,160
people who don't believe in human rights

381
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,920
even they have human rights and I've

382
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:45,120
always thought if you look around the

383
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:47,199
Mediterranean Basin at so many countries

384
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,519
where there's been the popular election

385
00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:51,720
of an Islamic government and the West

386
00:16:49,519 --> 00:16:54,360
always undermines and subverts it

387
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:57,639
they've never been given it the chance

388
00:16:54,360 --> 00:17:00,720
uh in any of these countries in Egypt in

389
00:16:57,639 --> 00:17:03,440
Algeria uh in in Palestine I mean the

390
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,319
Hamas won a victory I don't like them

391
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:09,039
particularly I doubt if they would like

392
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:11,760
me but they won a victory they should be

393
00:17:09,039 --> 00:17:14,360
allowed to make their mistakes that's

394
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,520
what democracy is about and the West has

395
00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:19,280
consistently subverted democracy all

396
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:23,039
over the Middle East you see I'm

397
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:25,480
wondering if this attitude and it seems

398
00:17:23,039 --> 00:17:28,400
to me to be quite widely shared in

399
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,960
Ireland uh towards the issues of Human

400
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:34,799
Rights is itself a product of having

401
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:37,080
once been an occupied country a subject

402
00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:39,080
uh country because there are

403
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,320
proportionately far more supporters

404
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:44,320
active supporters of the Palestinian

405
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:47,400
cause in Ireland than there are in in

406
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:50,640
Britain uh there's a generally

407
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:52,960
Progressive attitude towards certainly

408
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,840
issues of occupation and issues of

409
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,520
suppression of Human Rights would you

410
00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:00,880
agree with that yes I would absolutely

411
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,880
absolutely 100% and although I take a

412
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,080
complex view of the Revolution and the

413
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:08,200
post-revolutionary period if I look up

414
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:10,640
in the north and I see the still

415
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:13,039
devastating trouble from a plantation

416
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,960
that's over 400 years ago then I look at

417
00:18:13,039 --> 00:18:17,440
the Middle East and I think to myself

418
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,919
you is this going to last for 400 years

419
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:23,400
as well and then the Irish people have

420
00:18:19,919 --> 00:18:26,280
the memory of the famine when so many

421
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,559
people millions of people died or had to

422
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:31,679
leave the country uh and then there

423
00:18:28,559 --> 00:18:34,840
these terrible terrible scenes of

424
00:18:31,679 --> 00:18:38,000
evictions uh landlords evicting Ordinary

425
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:40,000
Decent Irish hardworking people and rack

426
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,440
renting every time a tenant farmer

427
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,919
improved their land the rent was put up

428
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:47,440
so they had no chance of getting out of

429
00:18:44,919 --> 00:18:50,400
misery uh and poverty and I think that

430
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:53,000
left left a memory uh in people well you

431
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,320
see you you touched on the six counties

432
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,760
there and there is another parallel this

433
00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,600
is the centinary the eve of the

434
00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:03,559
centinary of the Irish Rising but very

435
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:07,360
soon uh there will be the centinary of

436
00:19:03,559 --> 00:19:09,559
the balfor Declaration yes one of the

437
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:14,240
pieces of Correspondence going between

438
00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:18,080
balur and Lord Rothchild talked of the

439
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:22,799
implantation Plantation implantation of

440
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:25,760
a a little Jewish oler for Britain yeah

441
00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:29,039
in the Middle East it was in a sense the

442
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:31,360
same Imperial motivation and impulse the

443
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:34,159
plantation was so that Britain could

444
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:37,400
place if you like a a cat spa or a

445
00:19:34,159 --> 00:19:40,000
dagger at the heart of any nent Irish

446
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,880
nationalism and the plantation

447
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:45,440
implantation of the state of Israel was

448
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,679
for the same Imperial reasons I mean

449
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:51,240
Britain gave away Palestine before it

450
00:19:47,679 --> 00:19:53,799
even possessed it yes as an Imperial uh

451
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,760
uh possession and it's the only case

452
00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:59,000
where uh on behalf of one people balur

453
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,120
promised to a second people the land

454
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,799
that belonged to a third people

455
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:04,320
perfidious albian or what well there is

456
00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:06,080
a terrible arrogance but it's all

457
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,120
throughout the Middle East after the

458
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:12,280
Ottoman Empire collapsed I mean if you

459
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:14,840
look for example uh at uh Kuwait you

460
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,919
have a a border that goes straight up

461
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:19,080
from the coast takes a right angle

462
00:20:16,919 --> 00:20:21,559
another right angle neatly enclosing the

463
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,919
then known oil reserves so that means

464
00:20:21,559 --> 00:20:26,039
Saddam Hussein was quite right Kuwait

465
00:20:23,919 --> 00:20:29,120
was part of it was indeed it was part of

466
00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:31,039
the wot of bazer Tam dalel longtime

467
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:33,480
parliamentary colleague his father was

468
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:35,640
the political secretary to Sir Percy Cox

469
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,799
the British resident in Iraq who was in

470
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:42,000
the tent when sir Percy Cox drew that

471
00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:44,320
straight line and partitioned Iraq for

472
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,640
British selfish Imperial interests and

473
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,840
the same happened in Ireland yes

474
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:54,400
absolutely and but if if you look at the

475
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:56,640
at the situation uh in uh Iraq I

476
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:59,640
remember protesting vigorously at the

477
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:02,400
time of the bombing of the kurs at halab

478
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:05,520
I was in Iraq in Baghdad and I had a

479
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,720
shouting match over human rights with t

480
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,080
aiz to such an extent that our foreign

481
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,679
ministers said to me on the way out I

482
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,240
sincerely hope n would go out of this

483
00:21:12,679 --> 00:21:18,520
place live after what you just said to

484
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,600
him but looking at it the American and

485
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,480
British intervention there was an utter

486
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:27,159
disaster and what's left there now is a

487
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:28,760
complete an absolute catastrophe living

488
00:21:27,159 --> 00:21:31,039
under Saddam Hussein and I saw the

489
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,919
country under Saddam Hussein was so much

490
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:36,679
better it was a secular Western

491
00:21:33,919 --> 00:21:38,000
orientated country yes there were police

492
00:21:36,679 --> 00:21:39,760
there were secret police there was

493
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,440
torture there were all kinds of

494
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:44,880
appalling human rights abuses but having

495
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:47,960
said that it was better than what came

496
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:50,840
after it which is a sectarian blood bath

497
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:53,240
you mentioned in your epic speech at

498
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,760
Tony Blair you said he should keep his

499
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,960
face out of the Middle East you place

500
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,320
some of the responsibility for what was

501
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:03,960
happening in AA upon Him we've just

502
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:06,760
finished just this week the last word on

503
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,039
our film the killings of Tony Blair

504
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,919
Looking Back

505
00:22:08,039 --> 00:22:14,559
Now what how would you summarize the era

506
00:22:11,919 --> 00:22:16,039
of Tony Blair in the politics of this

507
00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:19,000
region and the politics of the Middle

508
00:22:16,039 --> 00:22:21,240
East region well unspeakable just

509
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,600
appalling and the idea that this man

510
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:26,000
with his track record is now given an

511
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,360
important position in the Middle East

512
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,720
process is outrageous I mean what would

513
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:32,960
the the Palestinians think of the

514
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,880
intervention of this man with blood on

515
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:39,200
his hands with a record of dishonesty on

516
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:42,520
the issue you know the massaging of uh

517
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:44,279
MI5 reports and all this kind of stuff

518
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,200
uh the idea that there were weapons of

519
00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:47,960
mass destruction and all this kind of

520
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,600
stuff and then the American voices in

521
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,919
the background saying that they were

522
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:56,279
going to blow Iraq back into the Stone

523
00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:59,600
Age well that's what they did and it's a

524
00:22:56,279 --> 00:23:03,880
disgrace will Ireland be United in the

525
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:05,640
lifetime of at least my children well I

526
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,679
don't know I think these issues are

527
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,679
becoming more and more irrelevant I mean

528
00:23:07,679 --> 00:23:11,480
the Border was a very serious thing some

529
00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:12,960
years ago but nowadays you drive up and

530
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,080
down Nobody Knows the slightest bit of

531
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,720
difference or no border posts nothing

532
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,720
there's a good deal of cooperation in

533
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,400
agriculture and tourism and so on so

534
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,240
forth and I think it will happen like

535
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,279
that rather than any kind of shin fan

536
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:28,200
inspired uh nationalistic thing uh

537
00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:30,600
borders are melting away across across

538
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,960
your Europe and I see it as part of that

539
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,559
process now interesting uh in the last

540
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,120
couple of days there was a survey done

541
00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:40,039
in Northern Ireland and the Republic and

542
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:42,919
it showed that uh a it was only a

543
00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:45,760
minority of people who actually wanted a

544
00:23:42,919 --> 00:23:47,840
United Island and when you in included

545
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,520
the idea of would you support United

546
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,679
Island if it led to an increase in your

547
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,480
attacks the number of people supporting

548
00:23:51,679 --> 00:23:56,039
on both sides of the board absolutely

549
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,919
plummeted so people have it as a nice

550
00:23:56,039 --> 00:24:00,200
hazy idea it would look nice on a stab

551
00:23:58,919 --> 00:24:02,159
but they're not going to pay any extra

552
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:05,120
tax money let alone put their lives on

553
00:24:02,159 --> 00:24:06,720
the line for us so I think as long as we

554
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,760
have good

555
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,960
neighborliness and that is increasingly

556
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:16,919
uh shown I mean to me it was utterly

557
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:19,840
astonishing that Paisley uh and uh the

558
00:24:16,919 --> 00:24:22,000
shin mcginness could sit down and become

559
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:24,039
the chuckle Brothers you know that was

560
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,440
astonishing and I don't I didn't like

561
00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:28,679
either of those two parties particularly

562
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,799
uh but it is very good to see them

563
00:24:28,679 --> 00:24:33,919
sitting down but I think they should be

564
00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:36,840
looking at the Grassroots forget about

565
00:24:33,919 --> 00:24:40,120
the Union Jack on Belfast Town Hall

566
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:43,640
forget about the tricolor get down and

567
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:47,799
look at Social Services Hospital waiting

568
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:49,640
lists schools education and cooperate

569
00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:51,919
That's the Way Forward because what

570
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:54,880
people really want is an improvement in

571
00:24:51,919 --> 00:24:57,399
their living standards not some kind of

572
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,120
abstract notion of flags and emblems and

573
00:24:57,399 --> 00:25:01,919
all the rest of it it has been an

574
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:03,960
absolutely fascinating interview I hope

575
00:25:01,919 --> 00:25:06,600
the viewers think so to Senator David

576
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:10,799
Norris pleasure having you on board the

577
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,799
Sputnik thank you so much George and

578
00:25:11,919 --> 00:25:17,320
gatri it's been a sad week for us on

579
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:20,919
Sputnik with the loss of our esteemed

580
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:24,279
and much loved colleague Mosen farage he

581
00:25:20,919 --> 00:25:27,559
created the entire look and sound of the

582
00:25:24,279 --> 00:25:31,279
Sputnik so with the closing titles today

583
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:35,220
we'd ask you to remember him as we do

584
00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:45,950
fondly and forever

585
00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:45,950
[Music]